John Hayes
Main Page: John Hayes (Conservative - South Holland and The Deepings)Judicial Review and Courts Bill (Tenth sitting)
John Hayes Excerpts
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
I am very grateful to you, Mr Rosindell. Your stewardship of our deliberations adds lustre to our proceedings.
The hon. Member for Hammersmith has done the Committee a service by tabling the amendments. I do not think even his greatest fan would say that he is an exciting performer on the Committee, but he is certainly a diligent one. His diligence has allowed us to consider again the issue of court users who may be disadvantaged in some way by the drive for efficiency. There is a barely a sin that has not been committed in the name of efficiency somewhere and at some time, and it is vital, as the amendments make clear, that we move forward with a careful consideration of the interests of all court users.
I will not rehearse the arguments that the hon. Member for Hammersmith has made very well. The amendments would ensure that consent is at the heart of the process, which I think would be welcome. Furthermore, they would guarantee that coroners will take full account of the character of hearings, which again I think the whole Committee would welcome. Moreover, they are clear that consideration must be given to those involved in an inquest who might be put at a disadvantage by the drive towards communications of a new kind, as proposed in the Bill. I appreciate that the Minister wants to make the process as convenient as possible but, my goodness, in the name of convenience, are we as a House and a people to cast aside all the sensitivities and sensibilities that characterise the way we go about our proceedings in courts, in this place and elsewhere? It is important that we recognise that the cause of utility, justified by convenience, is not the only consideration in these matters.
As I have said before, the Minister has been extremely sensitive to this issue in his responses. It is a case that I have made repeatedly on behalf of disadvantaged people, particularly disabled people, who will come before courts with all the doubts, fears and apprehension that anyone would have, but with the added challenges of having to navigate a system without the advantages that most of the people in this Committee have. It is really important that in trying to make the system more cost-effective, convenient and efficient, we take full account of disadvantaged people’s interests and needs. That is my purpose in adding my voice to this debate.
I pay tribute to the Minister for the way in which he has responded to the sensible arguments that have been made by Members on both sides of the Committee, and for his willingness to listen and take these things back and consider them further. I leave him simply with this thought. All my experience of life, which is not as long as it is going to be but is longer than some, is that as we journey through it, with all the joys and sorrows, all the trials and tribulations, all the triumphs and so on, it is perhaps the things that are inconvenient that take us closest to the sublime. I therefore long for the inconvenient life, and I hope that the Minister will recognise, in his very sensitive handling of these considerations, that convenience must not make us less caring.
James Cartlidge
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings for another very interesting contribution. His point that he is not as experienced as he will be in the future was an interesting chronological observation that it is impossible to dispute in any way, shape or form.
Sir John Hayes
That presupposes, of course, that I do not face an imminent decline or departure, which is not entirely impossible, although I am not hoping for it. I am glad that the Minister is wishing me a long and prosperous life—if that is what he is doing.
James Cartlidge
Although not a lawyer, my hon. Friend, given her medical background, understands very much how we deal with people day to day, but I would argue that one could say that of any remote participation.
James Cartlidge
My right hon. Friend is furthering his cause of unravelling progress towards remote participation and so on.
On the basis of what my hon. Friend says, we could question almost all remote participation, in that we would have to therefore argue that it could only be possible if we could keep the camera on or, alternatively, that we wanted to see them face to face.
I think I made it clear to colleagues—I cannot remember if it was during the previous sitting or the one before—that one big advantage of more digitisation is that it frees up resource for the most important in-person procedures. In criminal, that is clearly trials—in particular, jury trials, which I accept will remain in person. So there is a consistent logic to this.
James Cartlidge
I want to make progress, but I will give way one more time.
Sir John Hayes
I appreciate that the Minister wants to make progress. However, amendment 76, tabled by the hon. Member for Hammersmith—he is not with us at the moment, but he has done a diligent job—says:
“(c) the coroner has considered the likely complexity of the inquest, and
(d) the coroner has considered the ability of interested persons known to the coroner to engage effectively with the hearing by way of electronic transmission of sounds or images.”
I am sure the Minister agrees—I am not making an antagonistic point—that it is important that the effects of that kind of communication are measured on the basis of those who might struggle. I do think that the point about disabled and disadvantaged people is very important—[Interruption.] I see that the hon. Member for Hammersmith has returned. I was again praising him; some may think he is more a bridge than a palais, but on this subject he is right on the button. There are people who could find the processes we are debating more intimidating, more unreasonable and less fair as a result of these changes. That is what we are all trying to get at. I know that the Minister is trying to do the right thing on this issue, but I hope he might think again, particularly about disadvantaged and disabled people.
James Cartlidge
My right hon. Friend speaks with great expertise and, indeed, with more experience than when he made his last intervention, based on his earlier comments.
James Cartlidge
The hon. Member for Hammersmith asked for evidence. It is obviously a difficult area. The procedures are new, so having very clear evidence on certain types of remote proceedings—
Sir John Hayes
I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. What my hon. Friend the Minister has just said is important, because if there is a genuine consultative process of the kind that the hon. Gentleman has emphasised, which I must admit I had not recognised in my earlier remarks, and it involves those groups about which I am particularly passionate and which might be disadvantaged, then, while this legislation enables the things the Minister has described, it will not necessarily mean that they are imposed wholesale. I still think that the hon. Gentleman has done a great service to the Committee by allowing us to have this debate, and it is important that we have done so, but that consultation is critical. Will the Minister give me an absolute assurance that representatives of disabled people and disadvantaged people will be part of this process?
James Cartlidge
I know that my right hon. Friend takes a passionate interest in the subject. I am due to write to him on the position of children in care. I do not think that we have sent that letter quite yet, so I will add to it information about the make-up of our stakeholder group. It is MOJ-chaired and I am sure that it is broad. I cannot tell him who every single person on it is at this moment, but I will try to list for him all the information that I can.
I stand by my point. I think that these measures, just as with other technology, will enhance accessibility for disabled people and many others in society. I would be extremely surprised if, in future, any Government were to wind back this measure, even a Labour Government.
James Cartlidge
Before speaking to the clause, I just want to reflect on something interesting. When we discussed the first clause in relation to coroners, I mentioned the point about the backlog, which is very important. My concern, however, is that we are being criticised about the backlog, but whenever we propose practical measures to streamline the judiciary and bring efficiencies, the Labour party’s response is lukewarm at best, if not voting specifically against them.
I gave the earlier example of the oral questions about the Cart JR cases. Many hundreds of cases are heard by High Court judges and, as Members will know, High Court judges can also sit on the most serious criminal cases in the Crown court. We have measures in this Bill that free up 400 sitting days in the Crown court. The hon. Member for Hammersmith has actually acknowledged that the backlog in coronial courts is being causes by covid. If we were not to press ahead with these clauses, it would be far harder to deal with that. At some point, we must move from recognising that there is a problem, as we do, to bringing forward positive actions, as we are.
On clause 39, as the Committee will be aware—we have debated this previously—courts and tribunals have moved the bulk of their proceedings online, which has been a vital step in ensuring that justice continues in the midst of the covid-19 pandemic and the subsequent safety measures put in place.
Current legislation provides that coroner hearings must be held in public. This provision clarifies how that requirement can be met, permitting rules to be made to allow hearings to be wholly or partly conducted remotely by audio or video. Indeed, the clause will amend the current regulation and allow hearings to take place where all participants, including the coroner, will be able to participate remotely. Wholly remote hearings are already allowed in mainstream courts and tribunals, so this clause merely brings coroners’ courts into line with them.
It is also intended that this provision will provide coroners with additional capacity as they mitigate the impact of covid-19 and implement their recovery plans. In many coroners’ courts, this includes addressing a backlog of complex and non-complex jury cases. This is the key point: I accept the concerns of colleagues, but we must do something practical if we are to address the backlog. That is why we have these measures, and by doing that, we will relieve some of the stress and anxiety for the families whose loved ones have perished and resulted in these sorts of backlogged cases.
Sir John Hayes
I do not want to labour this point, but it is safe to say that the Minister is absolutely right. It is a matter of balance, which is essentially what he said, but there is an argument for improved practices. He made a profound point earlier about the fact that for somebody with mobility issues, who might not be able to easily get to a hearing, online and audio communication can be beneficial. My case was for other kinds of people—perhaps those with learning difficulties, hearing loss, visual impairment, and a number of others. The Minister has been sensitive to that. There is a balance to be struck, and that is a case that this whole Committee is agreed on.
James Cartlidge
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. That is an ideal note to conclude on, because this is about striking a balance. I would just add that this measure also complements a provision in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill that, if implemented, would allow the media to access coroners’ court proceedings remotely. I therefore commend clause 39 to the Committee.
James Cartlidge
It is a very fair question on journey times. Ironically, it has to be said, it comes after a debate about the benefits of remote hearings and so on, although admittedly that was in the context of the coronial courts. However, in terms of local justice, travel needs for victims and so on, it was a perfectly good point.
On the contrary, however, with these measures, greater flexibility in the allocation of resources will increase the opportunities for ensuring that cases are dealt with fairly and efficiently in the most appropriate location for the individual case. This may be at the location closest to the victim and witnesses, or indeed at a location far enough away from a specific area that causes fear for a victim or witness. Basically, there is more flexibility because we move out of, as it were, the statutory defined geography. That is very much our intention.
Clause 42 will help to create a more unified and flexible court system, by removing the requirement that magistrates court systems in England and Wales are divided into separate local justice areas. The boundaries between local justice areas currently restrict both work and magistrates themselves from being moved easily between courts in different local justice areas. Changes to the court estate and transport infrastructure mean that the court within a local justice area may no longer be the nearest or easiest court for court users to travel to. Consequently, cases are not always heard at the earliest opportunity or at the most convenient court location. Court staff are frustrated that they cannot cut waiting times for court users by transferring cases to a court in a nearby local justice area with an earlier listing date. Removing those restrictions will give courts greater flexibility to ensure that cases are dealt with quickly and in the most appropriate location.
This provision will enable the creation of a single magistracy and a new set of principles for deciding how work and magistrates are allocated. Proximity between the courthouse and the offence will remain the primary consideration, but it will allow the taking into account of other factors, such as convenience for victims and witnesses or the relative speed at which a trial can be arranged. That is of course very important in the current context, in which we have to be frank and open about the challenge of dealing with the backlog. Magistrates will still be assigned to a home court, and ensuring that that is as close to where they live as possible will remain an important consideration. However, they will have the flexibility to sit in other courts should they wish to and should the need arise.
This provision will require putting in place the replacement organisation and leadership arrangements and a great number of minor consequential amendments to legislation to remove and replace references to “local justice areas”. The amendments will be made by an affirmative resolution statutory instrument where any primary legislation is to be amended, so Parliament will be able to scrutinise the legislation. The removal of local justice areas will provide the courts with the freedom and flexibility to manage their case loads more effectively, and will ensure that cases are dealt with efficiently in the most appropriate location, reducing delays and inconvenience for court users.
Sir John Hayes
As the Minister began speaking, I thought, “This is another provision of the Bill I don’t agree with,” but as he went on, I became, once again, reassured.
One of the greatest mistakes that we have made in recent years is the closure of local magistrates courts. When I was the first Member of Parliament for South Holland and The Deepings, which was not in the mists of time, contrary to what the hon. Member for Stockton North implied a few moments ago, we had a local tax office, a local driving test centre, a local magistrates court and all kinds of other facilities rooted in communities. Over the succeeding years, those things have been stripped out—a huge error by successive Governments. Community is fundamentally important to the sense of worth and value and the connection between communities; and local justice is a really important part of that.
The Minister will know that the tradition of magistrates—in fact, the essence of the magistracy—was that these were people sitting in their locality, exercising justice about their locality. I was reassured when he said that magistrates would continue to be linked to a locality, but would have the freedom, the opportunity, to travel further. He also emphasised that convenience for victims and others—witnesses and suchlike—would be at the heart of the change. He has reassured us once again and persuaded me that what I thought initially might be a poisonous idea is actually anything but.
James Cartlidge
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. He will know that the origin of local justice areas—I believe—was in the petty sessions, which was the previous way of organising. There is considerable history here. What we are looking for is more efficiency but, as my right hon. Friend says, to balance that against maintaining the local link. I think we can have that balance. For very good reasons that touch on crucial matters about where we are with our justice system, we have to have a more efficient system. It is frustrating if a case cannot be moved from one magistrates court to another, when it should be moved, because of arbitrary geographic boundaries. That is why we are bringing in the measures, and I urge the Committee to support clause 42 standing part of the Bill.
Sir John Hayes
I was going to make another intervention, but the Minister has concluded his speech, so I have a chance to amplify my point at rather greater length. I wonder whether my hon. Friend, mindful of what I just said, would allow us here, as a group, to begin a campaign to reopen some local magistrates courts. Why on earth would we not want to do that? Why do we assume that there is a single destination, some predefined place, to which we are all headed? We have heard the nonsense about progress once or twice during our deliberations as if somehow we are just acting out a script, but history is not predetermined. We are not fascists or Marxists who think that there is a great plan and we are all mere players performing, so let us have some more local magistrates courts, in the spirit of this provision of the Bill. The additional freedom and flexibility that my hon. Friend described seems to be welcome. However, I think that there are several localities where justice is exercised a very long way from local people. That is particularly true in rural areas, such as the one I represent. In rural Britain, let us take advantage of our 80-seat majority and do something boldly imaginative.
Alex Cunningham
First, I want to reassure the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings that I could never refer to him as an old man because he is, in fact, three years my junior. The Minister heard my points and those made by the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings about local magistracy. It is very important and I am supportive of that. Hartlepool is one of the better examples of a court that could be operating. It is sitting there doing nothing, yet we still have real issues on Teesside.