Winter Fuel Payment

Joe Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady really think that going through Tony Blair’s greatest hits is any comfort to pensioners on £13,500 who lost their winter fuel payment in 2024?

[Louise Jones]

I thank the hon. Member for his comment. It is important to stress that this was a policy that the Labour party brought in, and the Conservative party voted against it at the time. The inheritance that this Government got from the previous Government was so dire—we really cannot forget how big a black hole £22 billion is. The economic situation of this country as a whole, and the finances that the Government inherited, meant that even the Labour party knew we had to make tough choices that we would never had made if we had had the inheritance we gave to the Conservatives in 2010.

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[Josh Simons]

I do. I believe in laying out the argument, and once I have done so, in a couple of minutes, the right hon. Gentleman will be welcome to intervene. That, I think, is partly what the House is for.

After the announcement of this policy, I immediately entered into a partnership with Wigan Council to ensure that every pensioner I represent who is eligible for pension credit and help from the household support fund receives every single penny for which they are eligible. I made it clear to my constituents that I would not rest until my most vulnerable pensioners are protected. In recent months, Wigan council’s fantastic income maximisation team have secured almost £8 million in benefits that would not otherwise have been paid to Wiganers. I have invited the team to all the coffee mornings that I host with residents every month, and these alone have secured tens of thousands of pounds in benefits for the people I represent. I have encountered much the same story again and again. So many pensioners were convinced that they were not eligible for pension credit because they had never received a penny of benefit in their lives, and so many did not know about the household support fund, but it turned out that they were eligible. Opposition Members never wanted them to receive this benefit, but we have made sure that they get what they need and deserve.

[Joe Robertson]

It is heartwarming to hear someone make a speech based on his principles, and the hon. Gentleman has made it clear that it is his principles that will inform his vote on this topic. Can he articulate, very clearly, what principle tells him that someone on £13,500 is too rich to receive a winter fuel payment?

[Josh Simons]

If the hon. Gentleman will allow me a few more minutes, I will come to the exact question of the threshold at which pension credit is awarded and at which, therefore, someone is eligible for the winter fuel payment.

In order to reach the most vulnerable people, who are often the hardest to reach because they are not on Facebook and are not coming to my coffee mornings, I wrote to more than 5,000 pensioners to ensure that they received the support they deserved.

Let me end by making a broader point. Today’s debate has underscored a simple truth about Conservative Members. Theirs is no longer the party with the strength and courage to lead, whether in asserting the sovereignty of this place or in making arguments with principle.

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[Mark Ferguson]

I would, and here’s why: when there are difficult decisions to be taken, we cannot shirk from them. When the Government shirk from those decisions, they end up with the grotesque chaos of entering a general election having accrued £22 billion of expenditure that there has not been sufficient allocation for, which is why someone else has to pick up the pieces.

[Joe Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman looks almost proud of the decision to withdraw winter fuel payments. He talks about taking tough decisions—can I offer him a really easy alternative? Scrap GB Energy, which does not produce any energy; do not give Mauritius money and sovereign British territory; and restore the winter fuel payment.

[Mark Ferguson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his talking points from Conservative campaign headquarters —they have been very much received on this side of the House. I do not relish having to take money away from anyone. It is one of the most difficult decisions that any of us will take. I hope that all of us in all parts of the House—every single person here—believes they are doing what is best for their constituents. I believe that every single Member on the Opposition Benches believes that what they are doing is best for their constituents. I do not believe that what they are doing is best for my constituents, but those are arguments I dare say we will continue to have vigorously over the next four years in this place.

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[Matthew Patrick]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. There is incredible uptake under this Government because we want to see the poorest pensioners access the support they are entitled to.

[Joe Robertson]

Will the hon. Gentleman take my intervention?

[Matthew Patrick]

I will, but I have a very neat point and so the hon. Gentleman will appreciate why I will not take his intervention right now. The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford) said it is not all about people quaffing champagne, but one Conservative councillor lambasted me for the decision and for taking away his champagne money. I do not think it can be right for public money to be used in that way while the pressures on vulnerable pensioners and working people are so great.

[Matthew Patrick]

I will take interventions in a moment. Hon. Members have mentioned those who are just above the threshold. They will therefore share my relief that this Government have put hundreds of millions of pounds into the household support fund, which can help those worried about their bills if they are just below the threshold. I will give way to the hon. Member for Isle of Wight East (Joe Robertson) first and then to the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen).

[Joe Robertson]

I thank the hon. Member for finally giving way. He has won his campaign to remove the winter fuel payment from Sir Richard Branson, but if I take him back a little earlier in his speech, he paints a picture of the sorry state that he claims this country was in when he took over. Just let us suppose that and run with his argument, which he must believe: why does he think now is the time to also take away the winter fuel payment?

[Matthew Patrick]

The hon. Gentleman uses the words “suppose” and “sorry state”. It is no wonder Conservative Members lost; they were in total denial about their failure for this country. Now is the right time to end the status quo, end the incessant decline under the Conservatives and put a huge amount of investment back into our NHS. I, for one, am proud that we have had five months of falling waiting times. I want Conservative Members to welcome such good news for our NHS—news that helps all the people in this country.

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[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

The flavour and mood of this debate have been somewhat strange. I expected to be in a debate facing Members on the Government Benches who were at least showing humility, and who at least, in the words they chose, showed that they regretted the decision, even though they reluctantly supported it. But that is not the mood we have faced at all. Government Members have been bullish. We have heard the word “proud”. They have been jovial and, at times, even upbeat in describing this very worst decision of this Government of bad decisions, and pensioners will have heard them. Labour Members may have impressed each other, and they may have impressed the trade unions of which they are members, by talking about and defending train drivers’ pay, but they will have deeply depressed, and depressed further, those pensioners who live in their constituencies, in my constituency and right across Britain.

My hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State took us through the issues caused by withdrawing the winter fuel payment, and she made the central argument that has been repeated from these Benches: they are withdrawing the winter fuel payment not from the wealthy, but from those on as little as £13,500.

[Max Wilkinson (Cheltenham) (LD)]

My constituent Jean told me that she is now washing in cold water as a result of this measure. She is one of those people right on the cusp. She might also be concerned by comments from the Leader of the Opposition about the potential means-testing of the triple lock after the next election, if the Conservatives are in government. Will the hon. Gentleman offer Jean reassurance that there will not be an even longer winter if the Government were to change next time?

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[Joe Robertson]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving me the opportunity to talk about means-testing— I did not expect to have that Government argument made by a Liberal Democrat Member, but so be it. There is some sympathy, from across the House, for the argument for means-testing the winter fuel payment, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that nobody on the Conservative Benches thinks that the means-testing cut-off point, if they believe in one, should be £13,500. That means that 10 million pensioners have lost out on the winter fuel payment. Unless the Government can make a fiscal argument for removing winter fuel payments from the very wealthy that actually delivers more funds to the Treasury, this decision should not have been taken at all, and should certainly not have been taken when it harms those on a fixed income of very little.

[Luke Murphy]

The motion talks about ensuring that

“those eligible for Pension Credit receive it”.

To return to the point I made earlier, if Conservative Members were so concerned about vulnerable pensioners, why was there absolutely no movement in the take-up of pension credit under the previous Government? Some 700,000 pensioners are eligible for pension credit, but I do not remember a big campaign on that by the previous Government that made a difference—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is far too long.

[Joe Robertson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for drawing attention to his own Government’s promise to increase the take-up of pension credit. After the past winter, there are still 750,000 pensioners who have not taken it up, so he should not speak with any pride or seek to deflect to previous Governments when his own Government have withdrawn the winter fuel payment and there are still 750,000 eligible pensioners who are not receiving pension credit.

[Luke Murphy]

On that point, will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Joe Robertson]

I am sorry, but in the time remaining I cannot take another intervention from the hon. Gentleman.

Without the winter fuel payment, over the winter we have seen a 5% increase in the number of people aged over 65 attending A&E, and of those who have attended A&E, there has been a 9% increase in hospital admission. The motion seeks a proper impact assessment and analysis by the Government of the effects of winter fuel payments being withdrawn. This was not a one-off winter, and it was a warmer winter than average. The same will happen next winter, the following winter and the winter after that, unless the Government bring back the fuel payment.

[Matthew Patrick]

The hon. Member stated that he believes in means-testing the winter fuel allowance, so at what level does he believe that eligibility should be set?

[Joe Robertson]

There are Members across the House who would support the principle of means-testing, and I have invited the Government to come forward with the data that shows us where the bar would be set to bring money into the Treasury. However, I would reject any means-testing that takes money away from those paid £13,500.

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[Andrew Western]

I dispute the right hon. Lady’s statistics. She is right to highlight that there has been an increase in hospital admissions among over-65s, but that is entirely in line with the statistics for people entering hospital in other age cohorts. That is actually a result of the collapse of the NHS on the Conservatives’ watch, which means that A&E is the only option for so many people.

As I was saying, as a first step at the autumn Budget, the Government announced a £22.6 billion increase in day-to-day health spending in England and a £3.1 billion increase in the capital budget over this year and the next. But we know that even with our long-term efforts to rebuild critical public services, pensioner poverty is a very real concern.

[Joe Robertson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Andrew Western]

I will make some progress first.

There will always be those who, for whatever reason, have been unable to make sufficient provision for their retirement. The benefit system provides a vital safety net for those on low incomes who need support the most. This, of course, includes help through pension credit, worth on average £4,300 a year and which tops up income, as well as unlocking access to additional support and benefits. We know there are still low-income pensioners who are not claiming pension credit but are eligible to do so and we want everyone to get the support to which they are entitled. That is why, since September, we have been running the biggest ever pension take-up campaign. Around 1.4 million pensioner households receive pension credit, but too many have been missing out. Thanks to our campaign, we have seen 235,000 pension credit applications in the 30 weeks since the end of July last year, an 81% increase on the comparable period in 2023-24. That has led to almost 50,000 extra awards over the same period.