European Council

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and I can announce to the House that Chairman Jalil, leader of the national transitional council, has announced today that there will be an inquiry into the circumstances of Colonel Gaddafi’s death. Clearly, we wanted him to face justice. That is what should have happened, and it is important that that inquiry goes ahead. However, I do not stand back for one second from what I said in my statement—that because the Gaddafi era is over and he is gone, the Libyan people, who genuinely feared that as long as there was a prospect of his coming back there was a difficulty in building their future, can now get on with that future.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

I greatly welcome the Prime Minister’s leadership on Libya. Its liberation is a success not only for the Libyan people but for proving that the international community can act together to implement the responsibility to protect. However, does he agree that we must also exercise caution? Intervention under R2P must be used sparingly and only in cases that meet all the relevant criteria, such as there being a serious threat to human rights, the response being proportional and there being clear support for action internationally, regionally and within the country.

[The Prime Minister]

I very much agree with how my hon. Friend puts her question, but I would add something important to that: we should intervene only if we believe we are capable of doing so and of bringing about the effect that we need. There is a very important issue there. It is about seeing not only what is legal and necessary, but what we can do.

Libya

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We will certainly make available our advice on those issues if it is wanted. In Paris, Chairman Jalil and Prime Minister Jibril talked specifically about the importance of police training and of ensuring that their police are properly independent. It was encouraging to hear them say that. Of course, having a strong, independent justice system is part of any free and democratic society, so we stand by to help in any way that we can.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

I welcome the progress of the Libyan people and the success of the United Nations’ principle of the responsibility to protect. The catalyst of the uprising was the 15 February protest by the widows, mothers and sisters of the victims of the Abu Selim massacre. Women played a crucial role in the revolution and are a vital resource for the tough task ahead of rebuilding Libya, so what can our Government do to encourage the involvement of women at all levels of the decision-making processes in the NTC and the national conference, in line with not only United Nations Security Council resolution 1325 but the wishes of Libyan civil society organisations such as Women for Libya?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, and I think one of the best ways to do that is to work with the non-governmental organisations that have particular expertise in that area. I repeat that this is not the same as Iraq, where basically an intervention knocked over a Government, and there was then a de-Ba’athification process and we had to try to put back in place what had gone. Here, we are trying to work with the Libyans, who are putting things in place themselves. I absolutely agree that a much stronger society will emerge if there is a proper and appropriate role for women, which tragically there is not in so many societies. I think going through non-governmental organisations is probably the right answer.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

As Rebekah Brooks said yesterday in Parliament, there was never a conversation that could have been held, in front of the Select Committee. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman asks me to answer the question—perhaps he will now be transparent, as he was Culture Secretary, about all the contacts he has had with News International over many years. I have set out the clearest possible position; it is for others now to do the same thing.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

In the light of Mrs Brooks’s revelations about quite how cosy and close the relationship was between News International and Tony Blair, and Murdoch’s secret back-door meetings at No. 10 under both the last and present Governments, does the Prime Minister agree that this explains why successive Governments have been so reluctant to act in response to the 2003 Culture, Media and Sport Committee recommendations, the 2006 Information Commissioner report, and calls last year from Lib Dem MPs for a judicial inquiry into phone hacking? [Interruption.]

[The Prime Minister]

People should not shout the hon. Lady down, because she is making a very fair point, and frankly, it is a point that does not reflect very well on either Conservative or Labour, which is that there were a lot of warnings about what was going wrong—warnings from the Information Commissioner, warnings from the Select Committee—but we did not put high enough up the agenda the issue of regulating the media. We should not be pointing fingers about this; we should be recognising that we need to work on this to get it right, to respond to those reports and actually put some of their proposals into the law.

Phone Hacking

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I have regular conversations with the First Minister. In this case, the best thing is to ensure that the devolved Administrations are happy with the terms of reference and to work out how the inquiry will relate to those Administrations. Any evidence can be put straight into the inquiry in the way I have suggested.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Even if private medical details are obtained without breaking the law, it does not mean that it is right to publish them, especially when they relate to a child and no possible public interest case can be made. Will the Prime Minister confirm that the inquiry will consider and recommend what meaningful sanctions can be imposed in cases where media outlets might not have acted against the law but have certainly acted against common standards of decency and ethics?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. I am sure the inquiry will look at that, but let me repeat something I said earlier: whatever regulatory system we have, we must still have people at the top of newspapers and media organisations who take responsibility and recognise that it is not right to reveal that someone is pregnant, for instance, when there is no certainty that they will keep that baby. These are important things that are about common sense and decency, and whatever regulatory system we come up with, we must ensure that we keep hold of that thought, too.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman will know, as he has followed events very closely, that the competition aspect was determined by the European Commission. It cleared the transaction on competition grounds. The decision will be made by the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, acting in a quasi-judicial manner. He will not consult me, the Prime Minister or any other member of the Government while reaching his decision, and he is meticulously following the advice supplied to him by Ofcom and other regulators.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

The coalition agreement committed the Government to setting up a fund to support people with disabilities who wish to stand for election—a move that was also recommended by the cross-party Speaker’s Conference. Following the conclusion of the Government’s consultation on the matter, will the Deputy Prime Minister update the House on the progress being made towards that goal?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who has taken a great interest in this matter and has been remorseless in asking the Government when they will deliver on their commitments. We are determined to do so. As my hon. Friend said, the consultation ended recently, and we are keen to make progress as soon as we can.

House of Lords Reform

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sadiq Khan]

I do not think that the second point necessarily makes the first point impossible; it is possible to have a second Chamber that is a revising Chamber and for all its Members to be elected. Of the 61 other bicameral Parliaments, none has an appointed upper Chamber. All of them are elected and seem to be doing a pretty decent job.

I am concerned that in other areas of constitutional change the Government have shown themselves willing to be less principled and more partisan. For example, we will see the number of MPs reduced from 650 to 600 at the next election, with no evidence for why we should lose 50 Members, which will simultaneously increase the power of the Executive. We have had 117 new unelected peers appointed to the House of Lords since last May, with more promised. Each peer costs £108,000 a year—we can all do the maths. There are now almost 830 unelected peers in our Parliament. We have seen boundaries re-fixed according to out-of-date electoral data that exclude 5 million eligible voters. We have seen Parliaments fixed at five-year terms, which was mentioned by neither coalition partner before the election, but is now mysteriously favoured by both. We have seen the political fudge of establishing a commission on a Bill of Rights, papering over the cracks between the coalition partners on human rights, and we have seen a failed referendum on the alternative vote. Those are some of the reasons why those of us who should be the natural allies of the Deputy Prime Minister’s plans to reform the House of Lords are suspicious of his plans and of him.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

I, like the right hon. Gentleman, would like to see a 100% elected House of Lords, but if the choice were between 0% elected and 80% elected, given that so far we have waited 100 years, I would like us to make some progress and to get to 80% elected at least. In that situation, what would he choose?

[Sadiq Khan]

I would make sure that my leader, if he were the Deputy Prime Minister, negotiated properly for a fully elected second Chamber so that the problems that have been highlighted did not occur. What has happened—[Interruption.] I hear the chuntering both from Government Front Benchers and from Liberal Democrat Members, whose concerns and aspirations I will come to in a moment. We remember the sanctimony of Liberal Democrat Members when we were in government. I will talk about the progress that has been made over the past 13 years, but I accept that there was not enough.

We have also heard that 100 years is too long to wait for those who sit in the Lords to be elected, and those of us who want a fully elected second Chamber understand the wish to proceed sooner rather than later, but there are many issues that the Deputy Prime Minister has not addressed in the draft Bill or in the White Paper, and with the best will in the world it is simply unrealistic to expect the Joint Committee to have resolved them by February, as he wants it to.

European Council

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me make two points to the hon. Gentleman. First, our share of the IMF is a little over 4%, so that is our contingent liability share of what the IMF dispenses. Secondly, the point about the IMF—this might also be of some reassurance to my Back-Bench colleagues—is that it will lend money only if it is confident that it is part of a programme that a country can repay, and that is important to consider. I say to those who are sceptical about our role in the IMF that Britain, as a leading economic power in the world, has an important role to play as a shareholder and board member of the IMF, and the idea that we should somehow be seeking to reduce that is wrong.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Seventy-two top businesses, including Google, Centrica and Unilever, have made a joint declaration saying:

“Moving to a 30% emissions reduction target is a win-win-win for Europe”

that will

“boost economic growth and create new jobs”.

Does the Prime Minister agree with those companies, and if so, is there anything he can do to ensure that his MEPs vote accordingly next week?

[The Prime Minister]

We do agree with those companies and want Europe to move to that target. We have supported that and put it in our own carbon budget in this country. I think that that is the right way ahead.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I said there would be no privatisation of the NHS, and that is what I meant. There will be no privatisation of the NHS.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister reassure my constituents that the Government will resist any siren calls to water down the Equality Act as part of the red tape challenge?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I can certainly confirm that, as far as I am concerned, there will be no move to dilute incredibly important protections to enshrine and bolster equality in this country under the guise of dealing with unnecessary or intrusive regulation.

House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Never occurred to me, Mr Speaker—never. The hon. Gentleman seems to be suggesting that any electoral change or changes to the electoral system can only be preceded by a referendum. It is worth remembering that we have changed electoral systems in this country on many occasions—for the European Parliament, the London assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Parliament—and that the Government are proposing to do it for elected mayors; all without referendums.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Only a fifth of the current Members of the House of Lords are women yet we still have the anachronism of places effectively being reserved for men in the form of bishops. There might be differences of opinion in this House about the merits of all-women shortlists, but surely we can all agree that in terms of diversity the last thing Parliament needs is de facto all-male shortlists. How will the Government take the opportunity presented by reforming the House of Lords to create a more diverse Parliament that better reflects society?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We cover this in the White Paper. My hon. Friend is right to say that a reform of the other place presents all political parties—and, I must stress, the party I lead in particular—with an opportunity to have greater diversity in those who represent us in a reformed House of Lords. It is primarily for the political parties to decide how they will use the mechanism of a new form of election to ensure that there is greater diversity in the candidates they put forward.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Eight years ago, this House discussed intervention in Iraq. I was not a Member of Parliament at the time. Instead, I was marching on the streets of Glasgow to protest against that war, along with more than 1 million other people across the United Kingdom. I deeply regret not only the UK’s role in Iraq but the legacy that it has left for UK foreign policy. As the hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) so eloquently pointed out, it has undoubtedly made the role of our diplomats much harder in their negotiations with other countries around the world. It has undermined much of what they do. It has also, understandably, made the Government and the British public more sensitive about any UK military action, even when it has United Nations support.

Libya is no Iraq, however. The two are worlds apart. Not only is international action in this case legally justified, but I believe that it is morally right to act to protect Libyan civilians. The situation is very different. In Libya, people are demanding action and the regional neighbours support them. Indeed, the Arab League’s request for help is highly significant.

[Mr Burrowes]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important not to pigeonhole the support from the Council of the League of Arab States? Its decision of 12 March called not only for a no-fly zone to be imposed, but for the establishment of

“safe areas in places exposed to shelling as a precautionary measure that allows the protection of the Libyan people and foreign nationals residing in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya”.

Does not that provide the important basis for United Nations resolution 1973 to take all necessary measures, including the bombardment, to protect civilians?

[Jo Swinson]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right, and the Arab League also made it clear that it did not want a foreign invasion force. It is important that that is explicitly outlined in UN Security Resolution 1973.

As has been discussed, a new principle has developed in the international community of the UN’s responsibility to protect. That was not in place eight years ago, and would not have applied in any way to the situation in Iraq. It is hugely positive that the Security Council is prepared to take action under its responsibility to protect, to make it a meaningful concept, and not just warm words. Turning to the scope of the resolution, it is incredibly helpful that it is not just about a narrow no-fly zone, and represents the need to take all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas under threat of attack. Indeed, it explicitly excludes a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory.

This is the most serious type of decision that the House can ever be asked to make, and it is vital that we are well aware of the risks of the action, of which there are many, including the risks to our forces and those of other countries when carrying out the action. We are taking action against Libya’s air defences to try to minimise those risks, but they are always there. We, in the safety and security of the House, owe a huge amount to those troops whom we have asked to take action in the name of the United Kingdom and, indeed, of the United Nations, and we commend them for their bravery.

There may have been optimism in Libya as the news came through of the UN Security Council resolution, but a scenario in which Gaddafi concludes that the game is up, and the Libyan pro-democracy campaigners celebrate a smooth transition to a free society is just a welcome fantasy—it is hardly likely to be the outcome. Even if Gaddafi goes, the building of democracy will be far from easy and, as is more likely, if he does not do so, the endgame is not necessarily clear and we may end up with stalemate. There is a further risk, if there is not a swift conclusion or a clear path to a specific end point, that there will be increased pressure on the international coalition, and it will be difficult to hold the consensus together. Indeed, as has been pointed out, it is perhaps not as firm as it was initially.

There is the risk, too, that Gaddafi will use the implementation of the no-fly zone for propaganda, and will try to paint a picture of the west as imperialist and imposing something on the middle east. From the UK perspective, with our forces overstretched in Afghanistan, we may not be able to react easily with military might to developments that would require a further response. We need to have our eyes open when considering how we will vote on the motion.

Not acting is not a neutral position, as there are huge risks in inaction, too, not least the bloodbath in Benghazi. Indeed, in Gaddafi’s own words, we have heard exactly what would happen. He said that he would show no mercy, and that he would track the fighters down

“and search for them, alley by alley, road by road”,

and house by house. In making that broadcast on Libyan media, he made it clear that his aim was to terrorise his own people and make them cower in submission. As I said last week in Prime Minister’s questions, we must consider the risk of the message that we would send other oppressive regimes around the world—that they could do whatever they liked, and that under no circumstances would the international community act. In what other circumstances would we act? In this situation, there is regional consensus, there is public demand for action, and there is a clear legal position. If we did not act in this circumstance, in what circumstance would we act?

What about the message to other oppressed populations? We have seen the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, and now in Libya, and I am sure people are watching around the world. If we did not act, we would send the message that if populations asserted themselves and demanded their rights, asking the international community for help when peaceful protest was met with murder, their request for help would fall on deaf ears and a lack of international response. What hope in that circumstance could any population have? We would run the risk, if we did not act, of turning Libya into an isolated pariah state, where Gaddafi would have nothing to lose, and would be even more dangerous than before, like a wounded animal. We would run the risk, a few months from now, that we would repeat the collective hand wringing by the international community that we saw after the massacres in Rwanda.

It is not an easy decision for the House to make, and it is not something that we should do lightly. Indeed, it is one of the gravest decisions that we will ever be asked to take as Members of Parliament. It is absolutely right that we scrutinise the detail, but I believe that the House will come to the right conclusion. Action to protect Libyan civilians struggling for democracy is internationally supported, legally justified and morally right.