Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Thursday 29th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

A significant program of work is going on at the moment to make sure everyone is aware of the card. This has been the No. 1 ask of the major six military charities in this country for some time, and I encourage everybody who is eligible—who has served and is a veteran—to apply for their veteran ID card, which opens up a whole gamut of services. We have completely transformed what it means to be a veteran in this country. Those services are available: you can get help with so many issues. Please do apply for your card, and slowly, we will make this the best country in the world to be a veteran.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

As always, I thank the Minister for his very positive response. He will know, of course, that people in Northern Ireland are joining up to serve—whether it be in the Army, the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force—as they have done over the years. Beyond the Battlefield, which I hope the Minister will visit shortly, is one of the organisations that helps veterans. Does the Minister hold any statistics on how many service personnel from Northern Ireland have applied for veteran ID cards?

[Johnny Mercer]

I do not have those figures to hand, but Northern Ireland traditionally has a higher representation of service personnel. I was in Northern Ireland two weeks ago, and I was impressed with some of the services, but to be honest, Northern Ireland is not where I want it to be in terms of veterans’ affairs. We are looking at all options for how the Office for Veterans’ Affairs can really lean in—while mindful of the fact that health, housing and many other things are devolved—and make sure that the standard that we now see in England for veterans’ care is replicated across the United Kingdom in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

What discussions has the Minister had with charities back home in Northern Ireland, such as Beyond The Battlefield and SSAFA, about improving mental health support for veterans who served in Northern Ireland during the troubles? I have extended this invitation in the past, and I extend it again now: will the Minister join me in visiting Portavogie to see the wonderful work of Beyond The Battlefield, which is conducting a project there? We really want to see him there.

[Johnny Mercer]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind invitation. I would love to come, and I was in Northern Ireland a couple of weeks ago. Health is clearly devolved, but I made it very clear that I want the same standard in Northern Ireland that we have achieved with Op Courage in England: a single, dedicated mental healthcare pathway for veterans, with 19,000 referrals in its first year. Where were all these people going before that? It is an incredible story. I want to see that standard achieved in Northern Ireland, and we will keep working at it until we do.

Afghan Resettlement Update

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Wednesday 13th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

Yes, of course. I had local authority leaders on the phone yesterday, and I know it is frustrating for people if they feel that the MOD has empty properties in their area that it can be using. To be clear, the MOD is bending over backwards to try to accommodate as many people as we can. Just because a property is empty does not mean that it can be used; there will be plenty of rotational work going on, plenty of maintenance upkeep and so on. We are straining every sinew to make that happen, and it is happening in Wales as well, but I will continue to work closely with MOD colleagues and make sure that we meet this challenge.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement and his clear commitment to honour, in his words, the debt we owe to our Afghan veterans. Yesterday’s debate on immigration and those who have entered the country illegally underlined the fate of Afghan soldiers who served with the UK forces and who are soon to be forced back to Afghanistan, probably to face certain death. These men, who put their lives in danger, seek to find a legal home under the promise given to them. I say this very gently: does the Minister accept that rather than send a message that people travelling illegally in boats will have more success than those signed up to the present scheme, we must instead emphasise the need to revisit why so many applications are failing while immigration through illegal means seems the easier and more successful route?

[Johnny Mercer]

I recognise the challenges with the eligibility process, and people’s concerns and frustration. That is an MOD issue, but as a Government we are working together to remedy it and to make sure that we arrive at the correct outcome. Anybody who has been to Afghanistan or worked with this cohort will know that it is incredibly difficult to identify these people. They have extremely complex families and histories. No one is sitting there and trying to put up barriers to their coming to the United Kingdom, but it is right that we are careful and clear when we process applications. I have given a commitment to this House, and to the Afghan community, that I will keep going until we have seen through our duty to every last one of them.

Veterans Welfare Services

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Tuesday 21st November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

You will not find me arguing against more time off, Mr Deputy Speaker! I am always fighting for better services in the veterans space, and I will take that idea of a veterans bank holiday away with me.

When it comes to the issue of mental health, the hon. Gentleman is entirely right. Some small groups have done extraordinary work on the frontline over many years, sitting with veterans throughout the night when no one else is awake or watching, and plugging them into services. We have transformed mental health care services through Op Courage, spending between £22 million and £24 million a year, and there were 19,000 referrals in its first year. There is still a massive amount of unmet need, but we are determined to drive that down so that all these groups feel connected and plugged into services. It is my mission to ensure that no veteran, especially when poorly, does not know where to turn, and I will not rest until we get there.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement. His understanding of veterans’ issues has been nurtured by his service in the Army but also by his nature, which leads him to try to help people who are less well off, and I appreciate that very much. I understand that just in the past week his Department has been able to assist people on whose behalf I have been acting for some time, and I thank him for that as well.

Last month it was announced that the Office for Veterans’ Affairs would be providing about half a million pounds of pilot funding to level up medical and welfare services for veterans in Northern Ireland. Can the Minister confirm that all those veterans—every one of them—will qualify for the funding, and that there is no criterion relating to length of service that they will have to meet in order to gain access to the right care?

[Johnny Mercer]

There is no criterion of that kind. The qualification in this country for being a veteran is 24 hours’ service. We can disagree on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is the basis of the allocation and all the data that we have had to collect over the last few years to understand what the veterans cohort is actually like. I am not sure what sort of exclusions the hon. Gentleman is referring to—he may wish to speak to me offline—but I have rallied hard against the way in which the politics changes in these things. Individuals’ commitment to the nation is unwavering. There is a standard to which we will adhere when it comes to looking after them following their service, irrespective of where they served in the United Kingdom, and I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for helping us to deliver that over the years.

Pakistan: Evacuation of Afghans

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Wednesday 8th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

I am more than happy, as I have said, to look at individual cases. We are dealing with competing pressures here of UK visas and Pakistan visas running out, but I can only reiterate what I have said: where there is a duty to these people, we will see it through, and I will work night and day to achieve that endeavour.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his answers to our questions. Last time, I asked him about a specific family, and we sent the information through. I want to reinforce the point about the forced deportation of that gentleman and his family, who are also Hazaras. In his job, he assisted the British Army for seven to eight years. For 18 months, I have been endeavouring to get them into the United Kingdom because of the risk of harm to them as targeted attacks continue. Just this morning, it has been reported that there was an attack on a bus taking people from Pakistan back into Afghanistan—it was blown up. The danger is clear—for me, anyway; I see it very simply. This cannot continue for that gentleman, his wife and their four children. We have a job for them, a house for them and a future for them. We just need the Minister’s help. Will he help me?

[Johnny Mercer]

The hon. Gentleman has already written to me about a case, which I think we have resolved. As I said, I am more than happy to look at individual cases. The eligibility criteria in these pathways are clear, and officials are working hard to ensure that they are as inclusive as they can be, but I will always look at personal cases and I look forward to receiving an email from the hon. Gentleman.

Resettlement of Afghans

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. There is funding available to do English courses, and every Afghan who has come over has had access to those courses. We are getting to the point, with Afghans having been in the United Kingdom for two years, where they should be speaking English, and we have made a real effort to ensure that happens.

On Afghan politics, I have worked out that the critical thing when working cross-departmentally, whether on veterans or this issue, is that we have to respect the lane we are in. That is clearly an issue for the Foreign Office, which I am sure will have heard my hon. Friend’s question. He can approach it for more detail.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister very much for his update and for the work that has been done; it quite clearly sounds good. I have a constituent who worked alongside an Afghani, and that outstanding case for resettlement has been turned down. I will not name the person in the Chamber, because I would not want to compromise him in any way, but I cannot for the life of me understand how the scheme has been applied to that gentleman, who is currently in danger, having fled the Taliban. He worked alongside the British Army. My constituent told me all about his duties and what he did, and I am quite clear about it in my mind. This gentleman, alongside his wife and four children, is living in Afghanistan and in danger from the Taliban and others. He helped the UK forces—our forces—when we beckoned and asked for that help. Surely the operation of the scheme must allow for compassion and common sense. May I seek the Minister’s help—I mean that honestly—for that honourable gentleman who we cannot let down?

[Johnny Mercer]

I ask the hon. Member to write to me about that individual today. I am more than happy to sit down and explain the process to him, look at that case and see whether it has gone right or wrong. We know that there are people in Afghanistan who deserve to be here and who we want to be here—the previous Defence Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace), mentioned it a number of times. The Government are aware of that, and he will know my personal commitment to that.

Afghan Resettlement Update

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Tuesday 18th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

I am not in the Home Office, so I do not know which hotels will be stood up as contingency options for asylum seekers. There is some really good practice going on in Chester, but there are also some extremely difficult situations. The truth is that, while some Afghans have done an extraordinary job of trying to integrate into and relocate to the United Kingdom, I have met some individuals who have properties here but choose to live in hotels and are sending money back to Pakistan and Afghanistan, while getting food and accommodation in this country. That is the reality of the situation. While the number of those cases is small, we need to ensure that we are doing everything we can to get Afghans into sustainable accommodation. I look forward to working with the hon. Lady to achieve that objective.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I think the Minister for his statement. Five days ago, the Government published their 2022 “Human Rights and Democracy” report, in which they refer to pathway 3 and the commitment that was given. It is nearly two years since the fall of Kabul and 18 months since the opening of pathway 3. In that time, few applicants have arrived in the UK. Many Members of this House, including the Minister, fought hard for the establishment of the pathway, which was originally intended to support vulnerable groups, including ethnic and religious minorities. It was promised that 20,000 people would be resettled in the UK under the scheme, yet it appears that the number brought to the UK so far is minimal, and applications have not opened for the original groups. Given the findings of the Hazara inquiry, detailing the escalating atrocity crimes and warning of a possible genocide, why has the scheme been so slow to open and process people?

[Johnny Mercer]

The ACRS and ARAP processes do not lie with the piece of work we are discussing today, but I am more than happy to take those points away. In context, this has been an extremely generous scheme. I recognise that there is an appetite to relocate everyone who served in the Afghan armed forces, for example. We simply cannot do that—that is half a million people. We have a special duty to those who served alongside us and those in units 333 and 444 who worked with the UK special forces community. We are doing everything we can to fulfil that, but we have to be honest and realistic about what we can do in this space.

All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that the Prime Minister is absolutely determined to fulfil our commitments to these people. That is what he said to me when I was asked to take this over, and that is what he has demonstrated with the amount of money and resource he has directed at this. If we all pull together and work together in local government, national Government and the third sector, there is no reason why we cannot successfully integrate this generation of Afghans into British society today.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In the past week, I have had the opportunity to engage with a veteran who is coming to the end of 24 years’ service in July. He has to leave the Palace barracks in Holywood and move out because his tenure has come to an end. He has no idea how to get housing and job opportunities, due to changes in his personal circumstances. What steps are being taken to ensure that no long-serving soldier is left in such a precarious position or feeling so vulnerable? I know the Minister will answer positively, but I think we need to know that.

[Johnny Mercer]

I thank my hon. Friend for his long-time advocacy for this cohort, particularly those who served in Northern Ireland. While I recognise that the politics may change out there, he should be under no illusion that this Government’s pride in those who served in the armed forces in Northern Ireland remains completely undimmed. When it comes to housing provision and employment, it is true that opportunities are better now than they ever have been in the history of this nation, but I recognise that there is more to do and we need to ensure that people do not fall through the cracks. I am more than happy to meet him to talk about this individual specifically so that we can load him on to one of the programmes we have designed.

Afghan Resettlement Update

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Tuesday 28th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

I make no bones about it, the ACRS pathway through has been difficult to open up. It is quite a technical pathway. We have had our first person through on that. We have made commitments of more than 1,000 through that pathway. Some 1,000 places have been offered and we have 351 in third countries at the moment. We have made commitments in this space, and we are going to see them through. If the hon. Lady feels that that is not the case, she is more than welcome to come and see me.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am grateful to the Government for their work to resettle those of our allies who are in danger. Nobody doubts that the Minister accepts that there are people who still need to be processed. Is there any way to enlarge the team so as to be able to deal with these cases more efficiently? There are families living in fear of their lives every second of every day. More needs to be done urgently to help those whose lives are on the line, due to their loyalty to democracy and those with whom they worked.

[Johnny Mercer]

As I have said a number of times, and as my hon. Friend will know, one of the primary moral reasons to act is that we have not been able to continue that pipeline out of Afghanistan. There are operators who are sat there in Afghanistan today who are entitled to be in the UK. They are not here because that pipeline is not working. We have too many people in hotels, and we want to reintegrate them into UK society. It is as simple as that. We clearly have a moral case. All of us have a responsibility to try to see through our commitments to these people and get these pathways open. I want to see a good, professional, seamless way out of Afghanistan—on those three pathways through ACRS and ARAP as much as he does. I hope we can work together in the months ahead.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Thursday 2nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

One in 10 people in the ex-services community face financial difficulties, as the Minister knows. According to research from the Royal British Legion, that is about 430,000 people. In the current crisis, the situation is only getting worse, and I am aware of that as well from my constituency. What steps will be taken to ensure that those former members of the armed forces are not left behind?

[Johnny Mercer]

The issues facing the veterans’ community are no different from those faced by all people across the United Kingdom today with the cost of living challenge. There is help and support through the energy price cap scheme. Grants are available across the country, including specialised grants from groups such as the RBL, which has been working hard in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I pay tribute to them and we will continue to do all we can to support the most vulnerable through this very difficult time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Thursday 8th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

To help and support veterans with additional cold weather payments, has the Department liaised with the Ministry of Defence to ensure that none of our veterans is left shivering in the dark this winter?

[Johnny Mercer]

None of our veterans should be left shivering in the dark this winter. Cold weather payments and grants from the Royal British Legion are available to support those who are at a particularly vulnerable point in their lives. Help is available if veterans speak up and reach out. Many people are prepared to help them, so no veteran should be cold and suffering this winter.

Nuclear Test Veterans: Medals

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

Absolutely. The Government and I are clear that there is no sort of deliberate blocking of anything like that. We all have to accept that the science is not straightforward—if it was, this would have been resolved some time ago. Also, different peer countries do it differently for different reasons. We are always open to those conversations. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. It is the start of proper recognition for these people, and I hope, as he sees the work we undertake going forward, he will feel we are doing a good job on that.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

May I first thank the Minister? It has been a long campaign, and the Minister has delivered, and we thank him for that, and the Prime Minister, too. I am thrilled to learn of the awarding of the medals for the veterans of Britain’s nuclear testing on the plutonium anniversary. This is a true commemoration of the service and contribution of our brilliant veterans and service personnel. Does the Minister agree that the recognition of all veterans in Australia, New Zealand, Fiji and Kiribati under UK command should be noted for their enduring service to our great nation. For those who have died, can the Minister confirm that the families left will be in receipt of their loved ones’ medals and that any financial compensation will also be available for them?

[Johnny Mercer]

We were the last of those nations to provide some sort of medallic recognition. New Zealand has a commemorative coin. It is similar in the United States, and Australia has a similar programme. We are speaking to all those nations all the time. We are also aware that these tests were carried out in indigenous lands in Australia. Indeed, the UK contributed £20 million to clear up these tests at the time. There is an ongoing discussion to be had in that place about how we properly recognise the commitment of indigenous people to this issue and the security that ultimately we all enjoy every day in this place. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. When it comes to compensation, there is a war pension available, and for any veteran who feels they are owed that war pension there are clear pathways into Veterans UK. If that is not the case, if he writes to me, I would be delighted to look at it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Thursday 14th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman back to his place and look forward to his contribution as a Minister on veterans issues. On funding for privately operated rehabilitation facilities, will he confirm his intention to make sustained grant funding available to charities such as SSAFA and Beyond the Battlefield—one of the charities in my Strangford constituency—which provide services that the Government seem unable to provide for veterans they seem unable to reach?

[Johnny Mercer]

The beauty of Op Courage is that it does precisely that: it brings order to the various charities and enables them to bid in to run contracts, so that they can run the complex treatment service, the high intensity service and the transition liaison service. It gets them on a sustainable footing and away from year-to-year funding, providing certainty not only for those who do the brilliant work in the charities sector, but for those who need it, so that there is some permanence to the system and veterans can rely on that help.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

The hon. Member is totally right. If it was my son or daughter, or the son or daughter of any of us, and there was a 0.1% chance that we would find out who did it or what happened, we would keep going down that burrow hole as far as we could.

All I would say is that there is another side to the ledger: people—yes, a lot of them are veterans—who are incredibly adversely affected and have a right not to go through the experiences of those such as my friend Dennis Hutchings. That is why this is such a difficult space.

[Jim Shannon]

I am mindful of many incidents in Northern Ireland. I think of La Mon, where on 17 February 1978 12 people were killed and 30 people were seriously injured—the people who were killed were incinerated. The person who gave the order for that was the IRA commander in west Belfast, who just happened to be Gerry Adams. I want accountability for my constituents who were burned alive, but the legacy Bill does not give me or my constituents the chance of that. For that reason, I want to see a legacy Bill that speaks for victims and ensures that those who perpetrated crimes are held accountable. They might get away with it in this world, but they certainly will not get away with it in the next world.

[Johnny Mercer]

I have huge sympathy for the hon. Member, whom I am close to and have huge affection for. He can imagine my views on Gerry Adams—thankfully we are in the House, so I will not get sued just for uttering his name—and on the incident that he refers to. However, I would say pragmatically that it has been a long time since that incident and, if that justice were possible, it would have happened. I want that more than anybody else, but it has not happened, so we must deal with the world as we see it, which is incredibly conflicted: evidence was not gathered correctly, the crime scene was a mess, and it is very difficult to reach the threshold of criminal conviction.

--- Later in debate ---

[Johnny Mercer]

What would the hon. Gentleman say to the family of Dennis Hutchings in this situation?

[Jim Shannon]

I supported Dennis Hutchings, and I still do. I will speak for the victims every time, and I will speak for Dennis Hutchings as well. I support him and his cause, but it is all about the victims. Let us focus on the people who have no justice, but who want justice. We should do that—not through this Bill, because this Bill is flawed—but in a different way. Many of my constituents and my people cannot grieve because justice has not been seen to be done. That is the issue for my people, for my constituents and for people on this side of the Chamber. I wish it was an issue for those on the Government Benches.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

2nd reading
Tuesday 24th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

Thank you. My brother William and I used to go down to my cousin Kenneth’s back in the ’60s. My cousin Kenneth was the one who took us shooting. We were introduced to country sports at a very early age, and it is something that I love today. I have introduced my son and my grandchild to it, as well. It is something that he instilled in us. They were different days in the ’60s than they are today and they were in the troubles. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East for intervening—I should have said that right away. I remember those days with a real fondness.

Kenneth Smyth and his Roman Catholic friend Daniel McCormick were murdered on 10 December 1971, some 50 and a half years ago. I remember that day like it was yesterday, and probably always will. I know it affected all our family up in Clady and Strabane, where we lived. Clady is a wee village outside Strabane. We have absolutely no doubt that the people who were involved in the murder of Kenneth and Daniel McCormick came from or were associated with that village. I could name the names, but I am not going to do so here. I do not think that it is important to do so, but I do feel that hurt.

Daniel McCormick left a wife and three young children. She got £3,500 from the Northern Ireland Office as compensation for the loss of her husband and the father to her children. How does that give us justice? It does not give me justice, and I do not think it gives anyone in this House justice. What I see unfortunately is legislation that does not take into consideration my position as a victim or that of Daniel McCormick’s wife and family.

The family dispersed almost immediately within months. My cousin Joseph went to America, where he has been all his life, with Mariam his wife and the children they have had. My aunt Isobel sold the farm. My grandmother grieved, as did my grandfather. My grandfather died of a broken heart. That is the story of the victims, whom we do not hear much about—but we should, because that is what is really important and that is what I want to talk about.

I want to talk about the four from the Ulster Defence Regiment killed in Ballyduggan. I speak as a man who loved a chat with John Birch, who was born in Ballywalter and was one of the Ballyduggan Four. I was not there, but I was aware and was around at the time he was born. I remember Steven Smart from Newtownards very well. His dad Sammy and I were best mates and good friends. There was also Michael Adams, who worked in a butcher’s shop while I had the business and I knew him from there. He always knew that he was going to be a soldier and he joined the Territorials, which I was in at that time. I remember that well. Again, I had to fight back the tears when I learned that a 1,000-lb bomb at Ballydugan took his life and the life of Lance Corporal John Bradley, whose widow I spoke to recently. No one was ever held accountable for those victims. The IRA did that and got away. Members will understand what my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry said—if there is even a smidgen of possibility of holding them accountable, I want that for my constituents and for the victims I am speaking about.

I am the MP for the son of young John Birch, who came to see me and told me about the grandchildren who his dad would meet only in the next world. He asked me whether he could ever expect to learn who carried out the atrocity that robbed him of his childhood and his role model on that fateful day, 9 April some 32 years ago. This Bill does not give those four victims or their families and children justice, and it does not deliver for them, and I feel incredibly annoyed.

Stuart Montgomery—I knew his dad, Billy, very well; we were friends for many years—was two weeks out of the police training college and was killed by a bomb at Pomeroy along with another police constable. Nobody was ever held accountable. Justice? Not in this Bill. Not for Stuart Montgomery, and not for the others.

I mentioned Lexie Cummings earlier, who was shot by an IRA man when he was having lunch in his wee Mini car in Strabane. He was a member of the UDR. They got the fella, by the way, but the boys made a slight mistake in the summons that meant that when he came to court in Omagh it had to be rewritten. In that time, he got out of the court and on a bike and cleared off across the border. My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry knows the story only too well. That guy is now a prominent politician with a Republican party in Donegal, so Members will understand why I feel sore and aggrieved.

[Johnny Mercer]

I have huge affection for the hon. Gentleman. I can see the emotion and the anguish written all over his face as he talks of his friends who have been victims in the conflict. He wants that 1% or 2% chance of justice, but I ask him with all humility, at what cost? I know that he also feels that aspects of the process are deeply unfair, so at what cost do we keep going down that rabbit hole to get the answers that I know he authentically, genuinely wants to find, but that some Conservative Members feel cannot be found?

[Jim Shannon]

There is no price on justice. I am trying, perhaps haphazardly and not with the focus that I should, to put forward the case on behalf of the victims and to explain why the Bill does not deliver that. The seven people I have mentioned—the four UDR men, my cousin Kenneth, Daniel McCormick and Stuart Montgomery—served this country and wore the uniform that the hon. Gentleman wore. They do not have justice, and I feel annoyed.

I will mention some other examples. Abercorn was an IRA atrocity against innocents who were brutalised, murdered or maimed forever. In the Darkley Hall massacre, people who were worshipping God were murdered. Lastly, I think of La Mon because it is in my constituency. Other hon. Members have spoken well and encapsulated what I am trying to say in my raw broken form. People were burned alive in La Mon. They were members of the collie kennel club—they were not soldiers—but they were murdered, brutalised, destroyed. Their lives were changed forever. I remember that day well. Where is the justice for those victims in this legislation? I do not see it and it grieves me to think about it. The IRA commander who was in charge and responsible for the bomb at La Mon was a prominent member of Sinn Féin. He happens to be semi-retired, but he is still there.

I speak as someone who has watched investigation after investigation seem to focus on one narrative or one viewpoint—focused on 10% of the atrocities, and leaving the 90% wondering why their pain and sorrow meant less. I tell you what: the pain for my constituents is no less than anybody else’s pain, nor is mine either. Who has heard the cry of the ex-RUC, the ex-UDR or the ex-prison officer who has been retraumatised by investigations designed specifically to pursue them by republicans to justify the atrocities that were carried out? I speak as someone who understands very well the frustration of the ex-soldiers being called to discuss an event of 50 years ago, when they cannot remember their shopping list for last week. I understand that—I understand it very well.

I speak as someone in this Chamber who has lived through the troubles, and who has intimate knowledge of the pain and despair caused to so many in Northern Ireland, regardless of their religion or political affiliation. My cousin Kenneth served alongside his Roman Catholic friend—they were best friends; one was in the UDR and one had left—and the IRA killed more Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland than anybody else. So we understand the victims, given the way we feel, the pain and soreness we have, and how we are with the things in front of us. I believe this gives me the right to speak in the Chamber with some authority when I say that this Bill does not achieve its aims.

This Bill does not deliver justice, and it does not answer the anguish or grief of the families I speak for or whom I want to speak about. It does not draw a line under current cases. It does not offer justice to my cousin Shelley Gilfillan, whom my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) knows extremely well. She is involved with a victims group up in West Tyrone. She has mourned her brother for 50 and a half years, as have so many others because their cases do not have a live investigation or a firm suspect who can be asked to give information in lieu of immunity. Those murderers are well covered with their on-the-run letters. The gunman who killed Lexie Cummings had an on-the-run letter, and he got across the border and had a new life. Lexie never had a life after he was murdered in Strabane all those years ago. So the House can understand why I just feel a wee bit angry and a wee bit annoyed on behalf of my constituents, and it is because of how they feel that this legislation, for them, does not deliver what it should.

Nuclear Test Veterans: Service Medal

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

I thank the hon. Member. She is not correct; there is no formal role for Ministers to play in this decision-making process. There never has been for medals. It is important that the AMSC is able to determine for itself which medal claims should be reviewed. The terms of the sub-committee are clearly laid out, and any new submissions that might have been provided have been passed to the sub-committee. The decision on whether the case will be reviewed will be shared with campaigners by the AMSC in due course. This is not the end of the line. Those reasons will be shared.

As I have said, the medallic system is outside the control of Ministers, and it always has been. It is rightly in that position, protecting the integrity of the medals system—this is important—and of those who have received honours in this country. However, I am determined to continue to do all I can to support this cohort of veterans. It is fundamental to me that there is no tiered approach to veterans in this country, that those who have served for any period, in any circumstance, are recognised and supported as veterans. Therefore, although there are no dedicated compensation arrangements for UK nuclear test veterans, all claims have been and continue to be considered under the war pension scheme.

Any veteran who believes they have suffered ill health due to service has the right to apply for no-fault compensation under this scheme, and I encourage them to do so. War pensions are payable in respect of illness or injury as a result of service in the armed forces before 6 April 2005, with the benefit of reasonable doubt always given to the claimant. Decisions are medically certified and follow consideration of available service and medical evidence, and carry full rights of appeal to an independent tribunal.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for his response. The right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings referred to the risk. I am not sure whether everybody here watches “Call the Midwife”, but on Sunday night past they had an article in the paper and it was about this very thing. I know that it was a drama, but it illustrated the effect on not only the soldiers, airmen and navy personnel, but the families. When it comes down to risk, is there not, as the right hon. Gentleman said, an obligation to deliver?

[Johnny Mercer]

The hon. Gentleman gets to the nub of the problem. I have seen some of the drama on Sunday night in “Call the Midwife”, and it is clearly a good and emotive production. The difficulty the Government have is that the evidential basis linking conditions such as that to these tests is with the scientific community and in its opinion it is not of the standard whereby we can draw clear evidential proof. That is the problem we have. That is not a decision for a Minister—that is not a decision for me. I have my own views on medals, and I have worked hard to support this cohort in other ways. That is the nub of the problem, and it is a difficult one, because I know it is frustrating for the families and for campaigners. That is the situation we are in, and work continues to identify the links between illnesses that people think they received from nuclear tests and the actual radiation exposure itself.

British Overseas Troops: Civil Liability Claims

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Thursday 16th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Johnny Mercer]

For me, service in the military is very clear. You adhere to the law. If you break the law, you will be charged and prosecuted. If you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. You operate within the law of armed conflict. Those who are elected to this place to look after you will, from this point on, do their job and protect you.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Minister has stated that fairness is at the heart of this, and I thank him for that. Does he agree that soldiers who are injured or deployed internationally in service of Queen and country deserve the same route to civil satisfaction as the civil servants in Whitehall, who have no restrictions and no limitations on their civil liability claim ability?

[Johnny Mercer]

I believe that those who operate in our armed forces are entitled to the protection they deserve. This Bill protects them. That is why I struggle to understand the context, because this is all about protecting our servicemen and women from an abhorrent process that has ruined some of our finest people over the years. I am happy to look again at all aspects of the Bill, but I want to build a collegiate approach in this House to get the Bill through. We agree that this must happen—let us get it done.

Immunity for Soldiers

Debate between Jim Shannon and Johnny Mercer

Monday 20th May 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I thank the hon. Member for Southport (Damien Moore) for raising the issue and giving us a chance to participate in and contribute to the debate. I declare an interest as a former member of the Ulster Defence Regiment; I was also in the Territorial Army for 14 and a half years.

When the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) spoke about the yellow card, I was reminded that some 45 years ago, when I joined the Ulster Defence Regiment as an 18-year-old, the yellow card was preached into us every night before we went out. We were very clear about what it meant. I thank the Lord that I never had to fire a gun in anger—I never had the opportunity to do it, was never in a position to do it, and was never confronted with it.

All hon. Members have spoken exceptionally well, but I hope that they will not mind if I pick out the hon. Member for Beckenham, who displayed the leadership and courage that many of us respect him for—not only in uniform, but as a Member of this House. He probably does not understand just how much we all consider him a friend. It is also a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), whose speeches —like his work on the Defence Committee—always have an honesty and calm that give us a chance to participate. I will not leave out my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) either: his speech was exceptional and encapsulated what we all think.

How topical it is to hold this debate the day after a memorandum was leaked from Downing Street that states, according to The Sunday Telegraph, that veterans should be offered

“equal, rather than preferential, treatment”

relative to other groups covered by the plan to investigate historical killings. Let us consider that idea for a moment. At first view, it seems right and proper—in a normal situation, it would be right and proper to treat soldiers in the same way as we treat Joe Bloggs on the street. But that assumes an even playing field. It assumes that the soldier in uniform decided, off his own bat, to take a weapon, enter a mission hall in Darkley and open fire, killing men whose crime was to worship their God in church. It assumes that officers chose to pull over a vehicle, take out 10 Protestant workmen and kill them, as a Roman Catholic man runs to safety. It assumes that soldiers set up a honey trap to trick three young men to their death. It assumes that officers set a bomb at Ballydugan in Downpatrick to murder four UDR men, three of whom I knew personally. It assumes that soldiers knowingly placed a bomb on a busy shopping street and gave false information about its position to secure maximum death and destruction.

For all things to be equal, rather than preferential, all inquiries should start from the premise that an act of terrorism with a determined and planned aim is very different from the events under investigation. That is not our starting point in these investigations, so things are not equal—never mind preferential.

These incidents began the second that there was a call saying that there was a suspicion of terrorist activity. These actions took place when soldiers looked to their officers for advice and relied on their training and on the yellow card, which said that if they were attacked, it was okay to defend themselves, as the hon. Member for Beckenham clearly illustrated. The events took place when unlawful terrorists were attempting to kill these men—to all intents and purposes, at the very least.

The actions of soldiers were a reaction to the environment around them—an environment that did not allow them to relax for even a second, lest they lose their lives or see their brothers murdered by the very people who now cry out for preferential treatment and a rewrite to justify what is unjustifiable. That is why I have to say respectfully that, yet again, the Prime Minister is flawed in trying to rationalise and equalise everything in Northern Ireland. It grieves me to say that about my Prime Minister—our Prime Minister—but that is the way I feel.

Some things are not equal and cannot be equalised. We cannot and must not attempt to equate a soldier in uniform with a terrorist. Yes, feel free to equate the murders of the IRA with those carried out by loyalist terrorists, which were outside the law, unacceptable and despicable. But to try for a second to allow republicans to rewrite our history and equate the actions of a soldier, carrying a legally held weapon and instructed to uphold law and order, with the actions of someone with an illegal weapon and a determination to bomb and murder his or her way to a political endgame is horrifying. It must end here.

Soldiers are not asking for equal or preferential treatment. They are asking our Government and our Prime Minister to acknowledge that they put them into life-changing and horrific situations and asked them to carry out actions to save us in this place from having to deal with evil men with bloodlust and a desire to wipe out any and every person who dared to consider themselves British—I am British and very proud to be British—or even to speak with those who did. Soldiers are asking the Government, who trained them and told them what was and was not acceptable in times of attack, and us in this place—in this debate and all the other times we have spoken on these matters—simply to be honourable and do right by them. That is what this debate is about: doing right by our soldiers. It is important to put that on the record.

I served on the streets of Northern Ireland. I listened to the unforgettable wails of mothers when they were told that they would never see their children again. We have all lost loved ones and friends—that is no secret in this world. My cousin Kenneth Smyth was a sergeant in the UDR and a former police special; he was murdered with his Roman Catholic friend Daniel McCormick. No one was ever made accountable for that.

[Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Moor View) (Con)]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, who is giving a very moving speech. As we have talked so much about equivocation today, does he agree that it is simply not acceptable for a Prime Minister of this country to stipulate that veterans should receive equal treatment—not preferential treatment to other groups in the conflict, such as the IRA, but equal treatment? That demonstrates a mindset fundamentally out of keeping with the justice that this is all about.