Jim Shannon
Main Page: Jim Shannon (Democratic Unionist Party - Strangford)Department Debates - View all Jim Shannon's debates with the Cabinet Office
(2 days, 5 hours ago)
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Jeremy. I thank the hon. Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East (Andy McDonald) for securing this debate. I do not say this lightly: he is truly a doughty champion—so I say well done.
The issue of outsourcing is a sticky one that I well remember from my days as an alderman on Ards council. My wife used to say, “If you’re looking for the alderman, you mean the older man.” She always called me the older man, not the alderman. She put me in my place manys a time.
I served on Ards borough council from 1985 to 2010, and I can well recall the financial arguments for and against outsourcing, and weighing the control we had against that which we would lose. I want to give a specific example that will, I hope, illustrate and support what the hon. Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East and other hon. Members have said.
Ards borough council decided to keep leisure in house when we created our new leisure centre, which is now called the Blair Mayne wellbeing and leisure complex, after the heroic SAS man who is portrayed in “SAS Rogue Heroes” every Sunday night at 9 pm or thereabouts. North Down borough council had outsourced its service, and when the councils were amalgamated, both outsourced and in-house services were being provided. The pros and cons of each option are easy to see, and yet it is hard to determine the best way forward. That example shows most effectively that we should never believe in a one-size-fits-all approach.
Mr Gregory Campbell
On the point of one size not fitting all, does my hon. Friend agree that we must look at the issue in a sensible, pragmatic way, and that neither a hyper-capitalist approach nor a radical socialist approach is the answer to these problems? We need a sensible, pragmatic approach that delivers good, effective services to the public while protecting the rights of those who work in those services.
Jim Shannon
My hon. Friend is right. We are all trying to ensure that the programmes and services are delivered and that, more importantly, the rights of workers are protected. He has hit that nail on the head.
The outsourcing of services can never be a no-brainer; it must always be a decision that is thought through from beginning to end, and with more than the financial bottom line as a guide. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East referred to it not being about profit margins. It should never be about profit margins; it should be about ensuring that the service is right. I agree with him.
We need to be sure that outsourcing companies behave in an ethical way when it comes to issues such as zero-hour contracts. That is made more difficult by the changes to national insurance, the blame for which lies with the Government. The group that runs Ards and North Down borough council’s Bangor leisure centre is concerned about £20 million in extra labour costs due to the changes to national insurance contributions and the minimum wage in the October Budget.
As always, that will affect profits, and I am concerned that the loser will be the low-paid worker with minimal rights. This is the key issue that must be taken into consideration in the context of outsourcing. The Government make decisions and say that businesses will have to swallow the cost, but too often the reality is that the staff have to. It is the wee man and the wee woman in the street who will pay, through the goods that they buy. Some companies that provided paid morning and afternoon coffee breaks are now saying that they can afford to do only the bare legal minimum. That is the unintended consequence of decisions made in this place.
At the same time, there is a time and a place for outsourcing, where expertise demands it. For major capital projects, the niche work must often be outsourced, rather than hiring in for short-term purposes. If there is to be a moving of the goalposts regarding outsourcing, we must retain the ability to get necessary work done in a short space of time.
In times of emergency, such as that currently happening at home with the after-effects of the storm, it is clear that outsourcing must always be on the table. Our road service, Transport NI, does not have the capacity to clear and make roads safe. The ability to hire contractors is vital, and it needs to be able to be done quickly. Those who wish to see an end to outsourcing need to be careful. Providing services in-house, with greater control, is better, but one size does not fit all. It may be beneficial to lean towards doing things in-house, but any decisions must be well considered and weighted, as I know the Minister’s will be.
Sir Jeremy Wright (in the Chair)
Order. I gently remind all Members that we must get to four minutes each voluntarily or I will have to impose something less voluntary. I call Jon Trickett.