A Green Industrial Revolution

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

There are far too many initiatives for me to talk about now at the Dispatch Box, but one example is the £1 billion that was recently announced for electric charging infrastructure. If the hon. Gentleman writes to me, I shall send him a full submission on the subject.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

What the Secretary of State says about electric vehicles is absolutely right and I applaud it. My vast constituency comprises 5,752 sq km and has 18 charging points, so that is a move in the right direction. My point, however, is that electric cars are expensive—more than most people can afford. Does the right hon. Lady agree that a tax break—perhaps through the PAYE system —should be considered as a way to encourage people to buy electric cars?

[Andrea Leadsom]

My right hon. Friend the Transport Secretary is sitting right next to me, and he and I work closely on all sorts of incentives for people to move away from fossil fuels and toward decarbonisation. Of course, as the hon. Gentleman knows, transport is a key target area and we will talk more about it later.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rebecca Long Bailey]

I thank my hon. Friend for her point because she is quite right.

With reference to civil society groups like Extinction Rebellion who have been urging those in power to tell the truth about climate change, I was alarmed by reports that the Government’s response was to defend the recommendation to list them alongside neo-Nazi terrorists. That is an absolute disgrace. I urge the Secretary of State to speak to her colleagues about this. It is absolutely absurd that our school strikers and our climate activists who were trying to fight to be heard here in Westminster are being listed alongside terrorist organisations when they are simply trying to save the planet and deliver a world for their future and that of their children and grandchildren.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I have no doubt in my own mind that the landslips, the flooding and the collapse of roads is being caused by climate change: I come from the land of the mountain and the flood. Highland Council and all rural councils, not just in Scotland but all over the UK, are faced with the cost of the restoration works. Adding to the hon. Lady’s suggestion that the money is not there, does she agree that we need a dedicated income stream for the devolved institutions in the UK to pay for these repairs, because otherwise it is just going to get worse?

[Rebecca Long Bailey]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments because he is quite right. As I said earlier, we cannot keep having discussions about whether climate change is real. It is real, and we cannot detach ourselves from the situation in thinking that it is something that happens to other countries across the world and it is not going to affect us. It is already affecting us, and even if it does affect other countries across the world we will need to help the people in those countries. We also need to recognise that for a country like ours that is so reliant on imported food, any disruption to any part of the world disrupts our quality of life here. That is why it is so important for us to protect the people here in the UK by making sure that we lead across the world on this. I am sure that we have collaborative agreement across the House on that point.

Rural Areas in Scotland: Additional Delivery Charges

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered additional delivery charges in rural areas in Scotland.

In the time-honoured phrase, Mr Hollobone, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. This is a huge issue for my constituents and many others living in remote parts of Scotland and elsewhere in the UK. It has been around for a long time and, despite the best of intentions and sympathetic hearings in the past, it is hard for me, as a constituency MP, to see light at the end of the tunnel.

Let me set the scene, which I am sure will be familiar to hon. Members, by giving two examples. First, I will quote Mr Charles Macfarlane living in Shinness near Lairg in Sutherland, who gave written evidence to the House of Commons Select Committee on Scottish Affairs. He referred to

“the behaviour of businesses, most particularly couriers, in either refusing to deliver to the Highlands and Islands, or else doing so charging rates so grossly inflated as to be completely unrealistic.”

He gave two examples. The first was that delivery for an eBay item costing £10 would cost £4.80 if delivery was in the UK, but when the business hears that it is for the postcode IV27 in Sutherland, the cost goes up to £15.47. Mr Macfarlane also quoted, rather charmingly, the cost of four chair castors being delivered. The cost was £11.41 to buy the four chair castors, and the cost of UK delivery was £6, but when the business heard that it was to the highlands of Scotland, the cost went up to £15. As Mr Macfarlane says,

“click ‘Buy’ on a product on the web, put in a Highland postcode, and at a guess about 75% of the time a significant delivery surcharge will be applied, very often even when the product was advertised as ‘free UK delivery’…Then, to add injury to insult, the overcharged service from such couriers is slow and unreliable—often two or three times slower than sending it by second class post, and during this time the product may have been jolting around the Highlands in a van for up to a week before finally being delivered—I’ve had a computer hard drive be Dead On Arrival as a result, and had to wait a further time for it to be returned and replaced.”

Considering the number of emails and letters that I have received about this issue since being elected as an MP, I could fill up the entirety of my allotted time quoting, but I shall give just one more example, which particularly stands out to me. A constituent has written to me about ordering a sheet of perspex from a London company. My constituent says:

“They wanted £16 for delivery, until I told them the postcode, when the charge was revised to £212.”

That absolutely stopped me in my tracks.

[Ged Killen (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. I know that this issue affects his constituency more than that of most of us here. The Scottish Affairs Committee looked at the issue in, I think, December 2017 and we found lots of examples of just what he has been referring to, including people placing orders and then being contacted after the fact, when the order had already been accepted, to be asked to pay an exorbitant delivery charge. Do we not have to address the issue so that when people go online to buy a product, the delivery charge is there for all to see, and the website does not say “Free mainland delivery” if that is not the case?

[Jamie Stone]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I want to take this opportunity to thank all hon. Members from both sides of the House who take this issue seriously. The fact that it is taken seriously means a lot to my constituents.

Surely, if a consumer sees delivery advertised as to the “UK”, it should be to the UK. Surely these companies are failing to realise that the highlands are every bit as much part of the UK as Wales or Yorkshire. It could be suggested that delivery to the highlands might be cheaper were the goods going only as far as Inverness, at which point the buyer could drive down to get them, but when we consider that for many of my constituents the return journey to and from Inverness is 200 miles and we think about the cost of petrol and the wear and tear on the vehicle, we see that these extra costs are most unwelcome.

I want to touch on Amazon, because there is a worrying new development. In the past, Amazon has, very honourably, had most of its retailers advertise a set rate for delivery to all parts of the UK, and it had a good reputation for that. However, Amazon has recently suggested intentions to move away from standard charges and allow marketplace sellers to surcharge for the first time. That would be seriously bad news and yet another financial burden on my constituents.

As I said at the outset, this issue has been around for a long time. Many of my constituents say to me that the charges are nothing more than a geography tax—one that they can ill afford. Living in my remote part of the UK already entails a high cost of living that simply cannot be avoided. I am sure that everyone has heard now and again that Altnaharra, in the middle of Sutherland, is the coldest place in the UK. There is, in particular, the cost of winter heating, while the cost of the distance of unavoidable transport is a burden on families, and sadly the prices in our national supermarkets are often slightly higher in my constituency than they would be in other parts of the UK. Of course, the latter point will have to wait for another day, because supermarket pricing per se is a separate issue and nothing to do with delivery charges.

The lion’s share of my contributions in this Chamber and the main Chamber during my two years in this place have been about sustaining local people in local jobs and local enterprises. As hon. Members will know only too well—and as will anyone who has studied Scottish history—depopulation has been the curse of the highlands for hundreds of years. If we want to enable people to live and prosper in the highlands, we have to ensure that the economic climate in which they live is on the same level playing field as other parts of the UK. What we know about delivery charges means that that is not at all the case. To put it simply, people on basic incomes are having to pay far more for many consumer items than their friends and relations have to in Glasgow, Birmingham or London. That is not fair and it means a stark warning for us this afternoon. I will put it this way: if this inequality is not addressed, many local people might simply decide that life to the south would be a lot easier and move away. It would be a tragedy to return to the bad old times of the past. Those empty schools are a sight that none of us wants to see again.

There is a good historical example. When the penny post was introduced in 1839, it was based on the fundamental principle that a letter or parcel would cost the same to be delivered to an address in, say, Ealing or Westminster, or Wick or Durness in Caithness and Sutherland. That is why the Post Office and the Royal Mail are so dear to our hearts and why this is as popular an institution today as it ever was. It was seen to be fair, and that was seen to be good. I put it to hon. Members that today, alas, we have moved rather far from that early 19th-century concept of what was basically a right of ordinary people.

If people read, as I am sure the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) has, today’s edition of the Aberdeen Press and Journal, they will see my erstwhile colleague and former member of the Scottish Government, Mr Richard Lochhead, talking about this issue. In particular, he mentions something called consumeradvice.scot, an initiative launched a couple of months ago. It offers free advice on delivery law and urges shoppers to report misleading practices, and it tells companies what would be best practice for them. I applaud Mr Lochhead. He speaks of “rip-off” delivery charges and I commend his words.

However, there is a hitch, and that is really why I am making this speech. The Scottish Government are indeed to be praised for grasping the issue, and so too is the Highland Council, which I am bound to mention—I was a member until two years ago. The Highland Council certainly understands the issue of delivery charges in the highlands. However, the awkward truth remains that although there is a mechanism whereby complaints are logged and best practice is suggested to retail companies, there is no power, with teeth, to change the way that the companies operate. That, for all the best intentions of the Scottish Government, the Highland Council and others, means that we are not going to get to the nub of the problem.

It is my deeply held belief that with this Government or, indeed, a future Government, we do not know what is ahead of us; we are peering into a dark glass at the moment. I think that all of us, on both sides of the Chamber of the House of Commons, would agree with that, but I do think that the Government in the future, whoever they may be, would do well to look at putting in place proper legislation to bring the system into some sort of order whereby fairness is built in for people.

I am bound to put it on the record also that members of the UK Government and this Minister herself have given me a sympathetic hearing in the past and that that is appreciated. There is food for thought here, and if we could come to a constructive dialogue about how we could put in place some sort of legislation, that would be helpful.

There is a second and final warning—I think I have taken up my allotted time. If we fail to tackle this issue, which makes my constituents and many others living in remote parts of Scotland and elsewhere in the UK slightly second-class citizens, we will be failing them. There is an example from history. In the 1960s, the then Labour Government recognised the needs of the highlands and islands, recognised that the highlands and islands, in the phrase of the time, were on the UK’s conscience, and took the bold step of establishing the Highlands and Islands Development Board. That altruistic move brought great good to the highlands and islands. It was very much to the credit of that Government. I very much hope that a similar generosity of spirit and attention will be taken up by the leaders of our nation today and tomorrow. We have waited a very long time for real action. If something can be done and serious consideration given to this issue, on a personal level that would mean a great deal to my constituents.

--- Later in debate ---

[Douglas Ross]

That is even worse! In all seriousness, my hon. Friend raises a valid point. He can get something delivered to London, but not to his constituency of Banff and Buchan. I will mention some examples that have been raised with me since I last held a debate on this matter, because there are some anomalies with the practice that these companies use. It is frustrating that the charge is added on at the end of the purchase.

I want to give a couple of examples. The first one was really remarkable. A constituent of mine in Fochabers went online and found the product they wanted. Their postcode for Fochabers in Moray is IV, like the rest of the highlands. When they put their postcode in, they immediately incurred a greater charge. He phoned up the company, which said, “We put this charge on all IV postcodes, but not AB postcodes.” My constituent happens to have another address in Clochan, which is three or four miles from Fochabers, but has an AB postcode. When he put in that address, there was no delivery charge.

What makes this even more remarkable is that the product was delivered by Parcelforce from its depot in Inverness, and to get from Inverness to Clochan, one has to go through Fochabers, to go further down the road to Clochan. There my constituent had free delivery, but had he wanted the product delivered closer to the Parcelforce depot, he would be charged extra simply because of his postcode. Not only do the couriers not understand that Moray and the highlands are part of mainland Scotland; they do not even understand the local geography and will deliver something further away at no cost, as compared with delivering something to a different postcode.

A constituent has emailed me another example, which I have written to the Advertising Standards Authority about. This constituent is a charity fundraiser. She wanted to purchase five tins to collect money for her charity. The tins cost £2.98 each. She was happy with that price and was going to purchase them for the charity. However, there was a £10.50 charge to deliver those five tins, because the charity, Outfit Moray, is based in Moray and has an IV postcode for its headquarters in Lossiemouth. The price to deliver the product was equivalent to the cost of three and half charity tins. It is simply wrong that charities, individuals, consumers and constituents are being punished in this way.

I want to give some examples of action taken in response to the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and other Members from all parties having raised this matter. Every time I get a case regarding this—I get many—I write to the Minister, with whom I am in regular correspondence, and I write to the Advertising Standards Authority, because it is wrong and unacceptable that the charge is added only after the purchase is made.

I have had two examples in the last couple of months where the Advertising Standards Authority has written back to say that it agrees. The first case involved chums.co.uk, which said it was offering free standard UK delivery for orders over £50. However, when the ASA received my complaint it investigated and agreed that IV postcodes appear to be charged a delivery fee. As well as that, “The delivery information section of the website states that there is a standard postage fee for the UK mainland and that is clearly not the case.” The ASA continues: “The delivery information on the company’s website looks like it is misleading and our compliance team are taking action by sending an enforcement notice.” Another case came up last month, this time involving amenity.co.uk. The ASA said that it agreed there was a problem with its delivery claims, and it too will be sent an enforcement notice.

I use those examples not because I condone what was happening, but to show what happens when we raise the matter and get in touch with the companies—I always write to the company and say that I am reporting it to the Advertising Standards Authority. It is encouraging that the ASA is now taking enforcement action to deal with this. However, we are only picking at the surface. Of all the constituents who contact me and those in the hon. Gentleman’s geographically vast constituency, which is punished in the same way as Moray, many will just give up, move on and buy something elsewhere. They should not be forced to do that. They should be able to purchase a product that anyone else in Scotland or across the UK could purchase for the same delivery price.

[Jamie Stone]

May I start my intervention with an anecdote? Many years ago, a letter from the United States of America arrived in my home town, addressed to “The representative of the Lord Jesus Christ, Tain”, and some wag in the post office wrote “Try Jamie Stone” on it.

The point about delivery companies is that they do not always leave the parcel where they should. I have heard too many examples of old ladies finding their parcel months later in the garden shed or some other completely inappropriate place.

[Douglas Ross]

As the Leader of the House sometimes says at business questions, that is an excellent topic for an Adjournment debate. The hon. Gentleman rightly raises an important issue that we could debate for many hours and links it to the important issue of excessive, rip-off delivery charges.

I support the hon. Gentleman’s efforts to support what MPs across the parties are trying to do on the issue. Considerable work has been done in the Scottish Parliament, both by the Scottish Government and on a cross-party basis. The Scottish Government have launched an excessive parcel delivery charges map, and they want constituents to contact their MSPs so that they can put their information on it—they say that that will highlight where the problem exists. However, although there are some examples outwith the north-east of Scotland, the highlands and islands, and Moray, I think that we can comfortably say that those are the areas most affected. I am sure that the map will tell us what we already know, but what we need is solutions.

It is right that the Advertising Standards Authority should take action when cases are raised, but we need it to be proactive rather than reactive. I am pleased to have been invited to join a new body that it has set up for MPs to work with it on the issue. Ultimately, we have to get a simple message across to the companies and the couriers. First, it is not acceptable for the companies to say, “That is a charge that our courier puts on.” They should change their courier. If a courier cannot tell the difference between mainland UK and the islands, or if it thinks that Moray and the highlands are an island, it does not deserve to be a courier. Secondly, the couriers need to wise up. Inflicting these charges on people in Moray, in the highlands and across the north-east of Scotland is unacceptable, inappropriate and damaging to their reputations and to the reputations of the companies that they pretend to serve.

I know that the Minister takes the issue seriously. She has met me and we have done some good work on the issue, but we need to do more. It is unacceptable that this practice continues in this day and age—we need to stop it once and for all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jamie Stone]

It falls to me to thank each and every one of the hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. In contrast to Westminster 25 or 30 years ago, a lot of people these days watch these events, thanks to the internet and the televising of Parliament. I know my constituents will be pleased that such thought has been given to an issue that matters greatly to them.

Secondly, I will spare the blushes of the hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Hugh Gaffney)—who is no longer with us—but it is true that the Royal Mail is held in very high esteem. If we look at the level of esteem of various professions, I am afraid that postmen and postladies are held in much higher esteem than politicians.

The answer, when we reach it, has to be thorough and to work for consumers, and I very much hope that it will involve the Royal Mail. I do not want to over-dramatise the issue, because using language that is too strong will not help the cause. The Minister has taken on board the points made, and I am grateful for that. In brief, it seems to me that it would be a terrible thing if the sheer cost of living for people who live in remote straths and glens in the highlands led to their considering moving away. People moving south was the old curse of the highlands, so I hope we will never see that day. When the public good is in all of our hearts, I am sure we can avoid that situation.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered additional delivery charges in rural areas in Scotland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Skidmore]

The Government have committed to guaranteeing all existing Horizon 2020 projects before Brexit. That was issued in August 2016 and demonstrated the Government’s commitment early on to protecting our scientific partnerships. We then had the underwrite extension in July 2018 which said that even once we had left the European Union—for two years up until December 2020—we would commit to funding those projects for the lifetime of them. We are now moving into negotiations on Horizon Europe, which is the successor scheme to Horizon 2020. I took part in the EU Competitiveness Council in February—I hope also to attend on 28 May—and it is our ambition to associate into Horizon Europe. On investment, my hon. Friend will be well aware that through our world-class universities we put in £4 billion and got back £5.7 billion in investment.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

Even at the height of the cold war, there was a surprising level of collaboration between Russian and UK nuclear physicists. Will the Minister assure me that there will be similar collaboration when it comes to the skills that we have in the UK—particularly at Dounreay, in my constituency—in nuclear decommissioning, which is an industry that we could export and which could make a lot of money for the UK?

[Chris Skidmore]

I entirely agree, and I pay tribute to the UK nuclear decommissioning sector. As science Minister, I have seen the innovation that is being developed. I recently announced £93 million for a robotics for hazardous environments programme involving about seven universities across the UK, which are looking into how we can use robotics more effectively to help nuclear decommissioning. I am delighted that that is now being transferred to Fukushima in Japan. The Government are ensuring that scientific collaboration is international. We will publish an international research and innovation strategy shortly, and I shall welcome any opportunities, involving any countries, to continue that work.

Exiting the European Union (Consumer Protection)

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kelly Tolhurst]

We are debating a no-deal SI, and leaving the European Union means that the law is disapplied, so by leaving the European Union we are moving out of those protections.

Furthermore, if we do not revoke the geo-blocking regulation, it would result in a competitive disadvantage for UK traders. They would have to continue giving EU consumers preferential treatment, while EU traders would not need to do the same for UK customers. To avoid this, which is in the EU’s favour, we propose revoking the geo-blocking regulation in the UK.

The effect of this statutory instrument is simple. The retained EU law version of the geo-blocking regulation and the Geo-Blocking (Enforcement) Regulations 2018 will be revoked in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU. The substantive rules contained in the geo-blocking regulation will no longer have effect in the UK after that regulation is revoked. It is important to note, however, that this legislation will continue to operate in the EU. As such, UK businesses operating in EU markets will still have to comply with the EU regulation when dealing with EU consumers.

The changes made to schedule 13 to the Enterprise Act 2002 by the Geo-Blocking (Enforcement) Regulations 2018 were undone by a separate statutory instrument, the Consumer Protection (Enforcement) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. Those regulations were debated and approved by the House on 30 January and were made on 6 February 2019.

The Geo-Blocking (Enforcement) Regulations 2018 enable the domestic enforcement of the geo-blocking regulation. They also provide for UK customers to bring claims directly against traders that breach the geo-blocking regulation. As the intention is to revoke the geo-blocking regulation in the UK and UK customers will not be able to rely on it thereafter, such provisions would serve no purpose.

A failure to revoke the geo-blocking regulation and the Geo-Blocking (Enforcement) Regulations 2018 would not preserve UK customers’ consumer rights. Those rights will in effect be lost if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. The only effect would be to continue to impose obligations on UK traders while providing no benefit to UK customers.

The subject matter of this statutory instrument is partially devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The statutory instrument has been consented to by the Welsh and Scottish Administrations, and the Northern Ireland civil service was notified in line with the protocol agreement in place during the absence of the Northern Ireland Executive. I would like to take this opportunity warmly to thank the devolved Administrations and the Northern Ireland civil service for their ongoing co-operation.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I rise as a former Chairman of the Subordinate Legislation Committee in the Scottish Parliament. The Minister has mentioned the co-operation at civil service level. May I have the safety of an assurance that there is similar co-operation at political level between those who handle statutory instruments in Westminster and those who do a similar thing in Holyrood?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I would like to outline the fact that this was given political consent: the Minister in Scotland wrote to us to give his consent for the statutory instrument.

In conclusion, the statutory instrument simply recognises the practical effect of a no-deal exit from the EU. The Government are seeking to ensure that UK traders are not unfairly subject to rules that do not benefit UK customers.

Civil Nuclear Constabulary: Pensions

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2019 Westminster Hall

[Patricia Gibson]

Absolutely. That is a very important point. When any of these officers suffers an injury in the line of duty, the service has a duty of care to look after them until they are fit to return to duty. They will not necessarily be on sick leave the whole time, but it is difficult to redeploy them because of the nature of the work they undertake.

It is not difficult to see why the number of CNC officers has been eroding. CNC officers have been categorised as public sector workers for the purpose of their pension, meaning that full benefits kick in only at age 67 or 68, whereas conventional Home Office police officers are able to retire at 60. Does the Minister think that disparity fair, given that CNC officers are expected to carry five different weapons and 30 kg of heavy equipment at the age of 65-plus, as they are charged with protecting UK nuclear assets and act as a vital armed reserve force? If these officers’ retirement age is not given parity with the rest of the police service, there can be little doubt that it will continue to damage the recruitment and retention of CNC officers.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady from the bottom of my heart on bringing this debate forward. Although I represent the far north of Scotland, this issue is every bit as big to my constituents who serve in the force at Dounreay. I recognise the contribution they make, which she outlined, in assisting Police Scotland in its endeavours. Surely, the loss of skills as people leave the force represents a misuse of money. A lot of money is spent training these officers up, so it seems to me that public money is poured down the drain if they leave altogether and go to civvy street.

[Patricia Gibson]

Absolutely. That is a very important point, which I need not add to. I am sure the Minister is listening. That loss of skills is extremely concerning.

The damage to the recruitment and retention of CNC officers can only compromise, perhaps dangerously, the effectiveness of the force, and it could have extremely serious consequences for public safety. In addition, if we expect such exacting standards of CNC officers, while demanding that they wait until 68 to retire, of course there will be a temptation for ageing officers who know their job could be under threat to mask health conditions that may undermine their performance.

We all know that most public sector workers are now expected to work for longer. However, there are exceptions for certain classes of worker, and it seems obvious that CNC officers should be included in those exceptions. Perhaps the Minister can explain why conventional police officers will continue to retire at 60 but CNC officers will not. What is the logic for that? Despite that fact, CNC officers must meet much higher standards of physical fitness to keep their jobs. Conventional police officers perform firearms duties as an optional part of their duties and can relinquish them as they get older. Every single CNC officer is required to be fully trained in firearms, and they cannot relinquish firearms duties as they get older; they are an inherent part of their duties. In addition, the requirement for CNC officers to retain a very high standard of fitness until the age of 67 or 68 discriminates against women, since only an elite standard of fitness is expected to be sufficient for those aged over 60 to continue their duties.

The vast majority of public servants will be able to draw down a full pension. Should a public service employee choose to retire early, they will have 6% of their pension deducted for each year they retire early. The problem for CNC officers is that they are not choosing to retire early; they are being forced out because of physical inability to maintain obligatory standards of physical fitness and weaponry skills. CNC officers are likely to have their careers terminated as they approach the higher retirement age, and they will see their pensions reduced, perhaps by up to 25% to 30%, as a result. That considerable financial penalty is proving a major career disincentive. In such a situation, how can the CNC stem the decline in recruitment and retention?

I hope the Minister does not respond by telling us that we are all living longer and that keeping the CNC retirement age at 60 would set a dangerous precedent. The CNC is asking only for the same provisions that are in place for conventional Home Office police officers.

Let us turn our attention to costs. Perhaps the Minister will find it reassuring to learn that the CNC has done its own cost modelling, which shows that the gross cost of a retirement age of 60 versus the current plans would be only £4.4 million per year from 2023 to 2030 and £5.2 million a year in the long run. In the short run, those costs would be more than offset by extra case management costs, early retirement and compensation costs, so keeping the retirement age at 60 would produce a net saving of £4.3 million a year. In the long run, once compensation costs were paid, the net saving would be around £1.9 million per year.

Make no mistake, the Civil Nuclear Police Federation has accepted the potential for increased employee contributions to cover increases in costs. That means there is no real financial obstacle to correcting the unfairness between police services created by the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 and securing the UK’s nuclear safety.

I say to the Minister that increasingly this fine service has been rendered ineffective, due to the dithering and delay from his Government’s unwillingness to resolve the issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Stringer, as, indeed, on other mornings and afternoons.

I thank the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) for securing the debate. I know that is a platitude and she asked me not to use platitudes, but I felt I ought to say that. She and I have been involved in quite a few things together, always on opposite sides, but I hope we have a mutual respect and she knows I am doing my best to resolve the issue. I cannot disagree with a lot of what she said—that is the last platitude, I promise.

The other Members who intervened showed their commitment to everything that goes on with nuclear in their areas. I mention first my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Trudy Harrison), not because she is on my side of the House, but because rarely a week goes by without us meeting two or three times, including the night before last, when we met the Secretary of State. I have had discussions on these matters with the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) and the hon. Member for Liverpool on many occasions, and I am always available to them for further discussion.

[Jamie Stone]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Harrington]

Of course, although I was just getting going.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jamie Stone]

I thank the Minister for giving way. There is a level of frustration. I appreciate the kindness of intent in his having discussions, but, as the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) said, there is frustration over the continuing delay, which has gone on for years. Could we all keep it our mission to try to reach a positive conclusion?

[Richard Harrington]

I utterly accept that point. I must apologise to the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mike Hill) for mixing up Hartlepool and Liverpool; I do not know why I did it. I hope the hon. Gentleman is not too offended. Perhaps it is because I come from Leeds, which is between the two. I got mixed up.

I am not going to say how important the Civil Nuclear Constabulary is to the nuclear industry, because everybody knows that. One of my early visits, and one of the most significant I have had in this job, was to Sellafield, where I saw the training centre. I did not just have a tour; I also saw how heavy the kit is, I spoke to a lot of officers and I heard about the training regimes they undertake. I do not think I could walk around all day and be fully mobile with the kit they have to wear and carry. I fully accept the level of fitness that is required. Chief Constable Mike Griffiths, who is about to leave the force, explained it clearly to me. He transformed the CNC so that it has become the modern force it is today.

The CNC is moving to the new pension scheme on 1 April next year. I have been keen to hear evidence and representations on the effect of the higher pension age on the effectiveness of the force. We engage with the CNC and the Civil Nuclear Police Federation, which I met last year, and I am well aware of their views. As soon as those views were brought to my attention, I contacted the Treasury and others in Government to try to resolve the issue. The least I could do was hear their representations—that is my job, as I am doing today—but I fully accept the importance of getting the matter resolved as quickly as possible.

I have contacted the Cabinet Office, because it administers the civil service pension scheme. The Treasury is responsible for public pensions policy and I have set out the arguments to officials there. It is easy to regard the Government as one collective group—that is perfectly reasonable and I understand that—but it is my job to support the causes within my Department within Government, and this issue is a top priority.

My officials have been working with the constabulary to gather additional evidence of the impact on national security, which the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran mentioned, of the higher pension age. I have also facilitated a meeting this week between special advisers from No. 10 and the constabulary, in which these matters were discussed. I am trying to bring all these things together to resolve the problem.

However, like most things in life, the problem is more complex than it would appear on the surface. We know, as I have said, that the tests and weapons are very important; I do not think anyone who visits or sees pictures of them could deny that. On the question of why CNC officers are not treated as police officers in the normal way, a judicial review in 2016 determined that they are employees of the Civil Nuclear Police Authority, so they come under the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and are not defined as police officers for the purposes of the Public Service Pensions Act. That is the legal position.

Fitness standards were rolled out, as the hon. Lady said, in 2015-16, and authorised firearms officers must meet College of Policing mandated standards.

Crown Post Offices: Franchising

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2019 Westminster Hall

[Lisa Nandy]

Many Members have similar anecdotes from their constituencies—I can see that the Minister is listening, and I am grateful to her for doing so. I have learned that access to post office counters in WHSmith is a huge issue for those with mobility impairments. Some, such as the one that my hon. Friend has just mentioned, have been located on the first floor in premises that do not have an adequate-sized lift. Yet over 1 million people have their social security paid into a post office card account.

The Minister is supposed to represent the interests of the public in discussions with Post Office Ltd and UK Government Investments. Will she tell us whether she has asked colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions to carry out an equality impact assessment of the consequences of franchising on disabled claimants? I have seen no evidence of such discussions or of an equality impact assessment by the DWP. What discussions has she had with her DWP colleagues, and will an equality impact assessment be placed in the House of Commons Library as a matter of urgency, and certainly before any further action is taken?

Last year, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Gordon Marsden) alluded to, WHSmith was voted the “worst retailer” on the high street by Which? readers, and it has been in the bottom two for eight consecutive years—it turns out that there is a lot of competition for worst retailer on the high street, so that takes some doing. Why, therefore, are the Government handing our valued public service to the worst retailer on the high street?

Significant sums of our money are being spent on, in effect, privatising the Post Office, using the worst business model available, yet apparently we do not get a say. At a recent meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on post offices, which is chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss), the network and sales director told MPs that

“this is a commercial decision for us alone”.

Yesterday, I received formal notification of the consultation on the Crown post office in Wigan. The document that I was sent said:

“the change of management of the branch to one that is operated by a retail partner rather than by us directly is a commercial decision for Post Office Ltd and therefore we are not seeking feedback on this aspect of the change.”

That shows complete contempt for the public who own this service.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this incredibly important debate. The Minister know about this, but in my hometown of Tain in the highlands, our post office has been moved into a wee narrow newsagent where there is no room to swing a cat. That means that when a pensioner wants to talk about his or her pension or any other aspect of PO services, there is no confidentiality whatever. On 22 March, that newsagent will shut. We do not know where the new post office will be. There is a feeling of helplessness among my constituents. People in my home town want to know what will happen. I take on board the hon. Lady’s point that we, the people, do not feel we are in control.

[Lisa Nandy]

The hon. Gentleman’s constituents clearly have a very strong voice here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) for securing this debate. I will be brief because she has said everything that all of us in the Chamber would echo about the problems we have with this proposal.

I draw hon. Members’ attention to the Conservative manifesto back in 2010, which said that it would make the post office the front office of Government services. How hollow has that manifesto promise proved? In fact, we could be here all day picking holes in what the Conservative manifesto promised and what the Government have since delivered. To put that into context, we consistently have debates in this Chamber about the dilution of our post office services locally, whether Crown post offices, franchises or the postmasters and postmistresses who run our post offices, because it is not the front office of Government at all.

In 2011, £172 million of Government services went through our post offices. That fell to £168 million in 2012 and was down to £141 million by 2015. In 2017 it was down to £114 million and it dipped below the £100 million mark in the Post Office annual accounts in 2018, at £99 million. That is not the front office of Government; it is the Government withdrawing services from the very thing they are supposed to be protecting on behalf of our constituents.

We can add to that the history of the project. The Royal Mail and post offices were split off under the Postal Services Act 2011. The Royal Mail was subsequently privatised. The Government said they would look after the post office network, but we have seen that post office network withering on the vine since the Royal Mail and post offices were split up under that piece of legislation. Indeed, if we look at the share price of Royal Mail today—it is just over £2.50—we see that the Royal Mail may be in a bit of financial trouble. It is hardly a success for the taxpayers of this country or for the Royal Mail.

Franchising is difficult not just because successful franchising operations end up in WHSmith. We have heard of the problems with that. I draw hon. Members’ attention to the Consumer Futures report done in 2012, away back at the start of this process, which said how disastrous franchising into retailers such as WHSmith would be. That has proved to be correct. The Government at that time, when I was the shadow postal services Minister, said that the Consumer Futures report was built on incorrect data, but it has since proved to be absolutely correct when we look at the practice of franchising Royal Mail services.

The Morningside Crown post office in my constituency was a profitable branch at the top of Morningside Road. I can tell hon. Members how popular it was in terms of footfall, because that is where we do our street stalls in south Edinburgh. On a Saturday morning, there is no better place to be than outside the post office, with a stream of people going in and out, looking to engage with their Member of Parliament on various issues. That Crown post office came up for franchising, and the interesting thing about its franchise potential was that no other shop in the local area wished to take the franchised post office. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan mentioned, when asked about its plan B if a franchisee does not come forward or if no franchisees satisfy the criteria for running a Crown post office, the Post Office does not have one; it has no idea.

I remember when we had a public meeting in Alloa with Gordon Banks, the former MP for Ochil and South Perthshire, when Crown post offices there were threatened with closure. Someone from the audience asked Post Office Ltd what would happen when either the franchisee failed or if no franchisee came forward, and the answer was that the Post Office itself would have to invest in the Crown post office. Perhaps we should invest in post offices before they are up for closure or franchising.

I have to pay tribute to Ibrahim Joulak, the sub-postmaster who runs the Bruntsfield post office in my constituency. He will take on the Crown post office by merging his small sub-postmaster’s post office and the Crown post office. However, franchised Crown post offices do not have all the services that we expect from the major Crown post offices, further diminishing our constituents’ use of the post office, which is a vicious circle for post offices that want to be self-sustaining.

Footfall is key if we want to revive our high streets. The best thing to drive footfall is services that people wish to use, and my constituency postbag certainly shows me that people wish to use local post offices. That drives the local café and the local newsagent, and people moving around our local communities drives the viability of public transport services. We need these linchpins in our local communities.

The most interesting and ironic thing I have seen on the franchising arrangements in my area is that four major high street banks have also closed their branches, and the letter they send to account holders says, “Don’t worry, you can use your local post office.” Well, they can do so only if their local post office exists. It is the very same problem with the free bus pass in many parts of Scotland. Of course pensioners can travel anywhere they like in Scotland with a concessionary travelcard, but they have to be able to get on a bus.

[Jamie Stone]

I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s commitment. As high street banks continue to close branches, could we not turn the whole argument on its head, keep Crown post offices open and offer the banks a one-stop shop in these wonderful old premises that have been there for hundreds of years, thereby giving an additional service to post office customers?

[Ian Murray]

That is a great intervention. I keep asking the chief executives of the Royal Bank of Scotland and other high street banks why they do not co-host with post offices, bringing together two business models that are struggling because of the way that we use modern communications and modern banking. The technology must be available. If I can do all my banking on my smartphone, surely the high street banks are able to co-locate with post offices and provide that for our constituents.

Finally, the reason why staff tend not to be TUPE-ed across when there is a franchisee partner is that franchisee partners simply do not want them because they do not want the cost. The reason they do not want the cost is that they want fewer staff. The reason they want fewer staff is that they think the service cannot possibly be efficient and effective unless there are fewer experienced staff, so staff tend to take the quite generous redundancy packages from the Post Office. That experience is then lost and there is a brain drain from the service, and again there is a vicious circle of the service becoming less efficient and less able to meet the needs of the local communities.

It is right for the Minister to come here again. I hope we are not having this same debate about franchising and the closure of post offices again next year and the year after and the year after that. The Minister is new in her role, but I hope she eventually grabs the nettle of the post office network, pauses the franchising process, looks at what the Post Office can do on its profitability and then invests those profits back into the current network, so that we can all have post offices in our communities that are sustainable for the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Richard Harrington]

As someone with previous experience of business in the south-west, in the tourism industry, I understand exactly what my hon. Friend says. The Government’s strategy is very much based on regional devolution—LEPs in particular—and areas such as his will see the benefits of that in the future.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

2. What steps he is taking to maintain cross-border supply chains after 29 March 2019.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Greg Clark)]

Supply chains between the UK and the EU are vital—they support at least 200,000 UK traders and around 55,000 manufacturing jobs in Scotland alone. The deal the Government have negotiated with the EU, by avoiding customs checks, will protect supply chains and jobs right across the UK.

[Jamie Stone]

I ask this question against the background of yesterday’s unthinkable dry run for a no-deal Brexit— 80 lorries is hardly the same as 6,000. I represent the furthest-away part of the UK mainland. I have mentioned before in the Chamber Mr William Calder, who runs a fish food company in Scrabster. Half a day’s extra delay in getting his fish products to the European market will ruin the gentleman. Does the Minister see just how dangerous the future could be for my constituents?

[Greg Clark]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. That is why there has been consistent support, especially in Scotland, from organisations such as the National Farmers Union of Scotland and the Scotch Whisky Association. Those who depend on the export trade, including the logistics he describes, have urged the House to back the deal, and I hope he joins us in doing that.

Good Work Plan

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)]

Flexibility in our labour market is to be welcomed but exploitation is not. Sadly this distinction is too often missed by those on the Labour Front Bench in their pursuit of ideological dogma. What assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the impact of banning exclusivity clauses in zero-hours contracts?

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I welcome the announcement about the Swedish derogation—it would be churlish not to—but I was surprised that there was no mention in the statement of people with disabilities. If this country is to punch above our weight in an increasingly competitive world, we will have to empower people with disabilities as never before; it would be folly not to use their skills and knowledge in the future. How will the Secretary of State ensure that the 21st century economy works for our disabled people?

[Greg Clark]

I mentioned the Disability Discrimination Act, which was a landmark piece of legislation. One aspect of enforcement and clarity that the new regulations and legislation will bring in is on the right to be free from discrimination, including on grounds of disability, to make sure that that is, first, clearly understood and, secondly, more effectively enforced. This is a further step to promote that very important set of rights for workers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

One-sentence questions not exceeding 20 words, please.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

The post office in my home town of Tain was closed and moved into a newsagent. There is not room to swing a cat there, although the staff are excellent. Will Her Majesty’s Government look again at the dimensions and layout of post offices as and when they are amalgamated with retail businesses?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I do not know the particular setting that the hon. Gentleman refers to, but I am more than happy to meet him to discuss the matter so that I can raise his concerns directly with the Post Office.

Budget Resolutions

Jamie Stone Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

One of our proudest achievements in Government has been to halt the destruction of the post office network—[Interruption.] It is substantially the same in numerical terms across the country as it was when we came into office. That is very important, for exactly the reason that the hon. Lady has set out. Post offices are crucial to many high streets and to the many small businesses that make use of their services.

We are in the early days of a period of spectacular opportunity for Britain. The truth is that none of the achievements that are within our grasp would be possible without the willingness of investors and entrepreneurs to take a risk in backing new ideas.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

Notwithstanding the attractions of Cornwall, the vertical take-off site for the UK is going to be in my constituency, and I would be churlish if I did not express my thanks to Her Majesty’s Government for that decision. In Caithness, we have exactly the kind of skills and knowledge in Thurso and Dounreay that the Secretary of State is referring to. Will the Government ensure that those skills and that knowledge are transferred and used to boost the laudable scheme for the space launch in my constituency?

[Greg Clark]

I am glad to hear that from the hon. Gentleman. I had a great visit to his beautiful constituency and he is right to say that it has skills that can be deployed in the space industry now. It also has the opportunity, working with local colleges, to develop and grow the skills that the space industry will need if it is to create good, well-paid jobs there in the future. This decision is great news for the north of Scotland and for the whole of the United Kingdom.