Mental Health (Veterans)

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Hazel Blears]

Yes. The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. The capacity of the people at Combat Stress to cope with the increasing number of referrals is of concern to all of us in the House, because they are specialists—they know what they are doing and are very effective. The best way to use Government funds is to put them into the services that we know achieve positive results, and Combat Stress has an excellent record. I will come to the issue of funding shortly.

Combat Stress provides very practical help. It is establishing 14 community outreach teams across the country. It has three short-stay treatment centres and it wants to enhance the clinical care that it provides at those centres; it wants to provide better clinical care. That is one of the uses to which any additional funds should be put. These are very specialised areas of intervention, and giving people the highest-quality clinical support is very important indeed. Since 2005, Combat Stress has seen a 72% increase in demand for its specialist services catering for veterans’ mental health problems. The services are free of charge to veterans, so they have to be financed through fundraising and from public sources as well.

A number of veterans leave the armed forces with very severe psychological wounds. Post-traumatic stress disorder can go on for a long time—for years, in fact. These conditions are not susceptible to easy treatment. Therefore, there needs to be a sustained commitment to funding and support for organisations such as Combat Stress.

Combat Stress also offers a 24-hour helpline. That provides confidential help not just to people who have been in the military, but, crucially, to their families. We sometimes forget the huge impact on the families of veterans suffering from mental health problems. If people commonly have nightmares and panic attacks, lose their temper and occasionally become violent, the impact on families can be enormous. The 24-hour helpline is therefore a practical way for people to get emergency help when a situation gets out of control.

Combat Stress has an expanding outreach service. It has a team of mental health practitioners, community psychiatric nurses and regional welfare officers. It has three centres, in Shropshire, Surrey and Ayrshire. In September, it introduced a six-week veterans programme, which provides enhanced treatment for people with complicated presentations—it is intended really to dig deep and to delve into all the symptoms people exhibit.

Combat Stress also has a well-being and rehabilitation programme, which is available to all the veterans in the short-stay treatment centres. The programme uses a really structured occupational therapy model, which draws on best practice in civilian mental health. It includes employment mentoring and life skills workshops, and it deals with the practical issues of rehabilitation so that people can take up social activities in the community, which they may have lost touch with while they had post-traumatic stress disorder.

Combat Stress is absolutely the leading organisation in this field in terms of expertise. It now has a partnership agreement with the Ministry of Defence and the Department of Health, and £350,000 of investment was recently agreed, which is, of course, very welcome. Despite that, however, Combat Stress is still feeling the pressure, as the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) said, and that pressure is likely to increase. I therefore asked it what it was looking for from Ministers, and I want to put to the Minister the points it raised so that he can address them.

First, Combat Stress is looking for increased recognition of the number of people who are beginning to disclose that they have post-traumatic stress disorder, especially given that an increasing number of servicemen are being withdrawn from the combat zones we have had in Iraq and Afghanistan. As these people come home, the pressures will build, and more and more of them will need services.

Combat Stress estimates that 960 of the service personnel leaving the armed forces in 2012 are likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, while about 4,700—a huge number to cope with—are likely to suffer from a more common mental illness, such as depression or anxiety. That is the nature of the problem. Combat Stress’s services are running at capacity and demand is going up, so my first question to the Minister is whether the MOD and the Department of Health, which is responsible for treatment, recognise that this problem, which will increase, should be firmly on the agenda.

Combat Stress’s second request is for increased capacity. The organisation is now extremely well known, so anybody who is in the circumstances I have described turns to it for help. The last thing Combat Stress wants to do is to turn people away because it does not have the facilities to cope. Can the Minister therefore tell us whether any planning is being done to deal with this issue? What proposals are there to meet the increased demand over the next few years? Where will the investment go? There will be investment in NHS facilities, but the facilities I am talking about, which are close to people and their families, can make a huge contribution in addition to that made by the NHS. I would therefore like to hear what specific proposals the Minister has to provide more funding, more resource and more capacity, particularly for Combat Stress’s outreach work and its 14 outreach teams, which will be extremely helpful for people suffering from the problems I have mentioned.

The third issue I want to raise with the Minister is the stigma around these conditions. There is much more to be done on this. Some 81% of veterans with a mental illness feel ashamed or embarrassed, which sometimes prevents them from seeking the help they absolutely need if they are to get well. One in three veterans—this is a very sad figure—are too ashamed even to tell their families about their mental health problems. I can only imagine what it must be like to live in a family with someone who becomes withdrawn, who is no longer part of the family, who suffers from all the symptoms I have described and who is often in a desperate state and too embarrassed to tell the other members of the family how they feel.

The Government—indeed, all of us—have a job of work to do to raise the profile of these issues and to remove the stigma around them. These things happen in conditions of war, and we should not be embarrassed or ashamed about them. We should do our utmost to help people in such circumstances. I welcome the MOD campaign on this, which is called “Don’t bottle it up”. It is a good way of starting to get rid of the stigma, but more could be done.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

The right hon. Lady is talking a great deal of sense. Allied to the question of stigma is people’s failure to recognise symptoms in themselves. People often suffer some of these things many years after the incident that caused them. Does she agree that another role the NHS could usefully play would be to advertise some of the symptoms and causes of these unfortunate mental disorders so that people actually recognise what is happening to them?

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[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing the debate. It is on an issue that I have spoken about on one or two occasions. I am delighted to say that in my maiden speech I gave warning and notice to my right hon. Friend the Minister that I was likely to carry on banging on about it. I am therefore grateful to have the opportunity to do so. A big problem with such debates is that the issues are covered by not only the Ministry of Defence but the Department of Health, and it would be helpful if we could, at some stage, get a Minister to come to talk about the health implications of what we want.

The right hon. Lady has given a very good briefing on Combat Stress, and I, like her, have been to talk to that organisation. It has been incredibly good at ensuring that I am kept informed and have an understanding of exactly where the problems are. Of course, we have heard a lot about the concentration and focus on veterans who have come out of Iraq or Afghanistan, but we must remember that people who were involved in conflicts in Northern Ireland will also need help. They also make up a significant number of the casualties who were created from that long and bloody conflict.

We talked at some length about how there will be an increasing number of people dealing with combat stress over the years. The Government have announced that we will withdraw from the Afghanistan conflict by 2014, but activities will continue there. During a trip that I made to Afghanistan a couple of weeks ago, I was told that although the troops will not go out on patrol, we will almost certainly need to support and help those in the Afghan army and police, who will need guidance. I am in no doubt at all that elements in the Afghan resistance will seek to ensure that our troops are subject to many attacks.

I grew up with these issues. My father went into the Royal Navy at 14, and was awarded the distinguished service cross for his activities in Narvik. He told me, when I was a child and a teenager, of how it was that he had been responsible for trying to take the head of one of the people he had served in a cabin with to throw it over the side when it was blown off in action. Fortunately, that did not have an impact on us as children. He was a very normal man and lived a full and active life until he was 89, but there was a real chance that such activity could have had a significant impact, not only on my mother, who, I have to say, had the most wonderful sense of humour, but on us, as children. We have all come out, I hope, reasonably sane and balanced.

The other day, I visited the Royal Marines in Exeter. One person told me a sad story of how when he had served abroad in action, he came back and wanted to talk to his wife about what he had faced. He wife looked at him and said, “Don’t start talking to me about any of that. I’ve had a damn awful day as well. I’ve had to deal with 300 e-mails, so that’s my priority”, so he did not talk to her about it. He tried to talk to his mates, who were not involved in the armed services, but they found it very difficult to understand, so he had to find his fellow servicemen—Royal Marine friends—who lived in Aylesbury, where he came from, and talk to them. It was only by having that opportunity to share his experiences that he saw what was going on.

I represent Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, and it is a great pleasure to do so. We have just, literally, had 3 Commando Brigade come back from Afghanistan, and I think it also has some of the scars that come with that.

I am delighted that we have accepted the military covenant into law. I hope that the Secretary of State’s regular reports on that issue will be informed, and that we will be able to talk about mental health. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) on writing the paper called, “Fighting Fit”. I think that that was the benchmark for ensuring that we were able to produce a strategy, and we are taking the issue more seriously.

I am also concerned about the reservists. We are enormously good at talking about regular service personnel, but we do not talk too much about reservists, although I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) has been doing an extraordinarily large amount of work on this. I was talking to the British Legion the other day, and it told me how it did not seem possible to share information on reservists with charities that are delivering support and help. Could we look at that? Can we make sure that the information is much more readily available, so that people such as Combat Stress and the British Legion are aware of exactly where the issue is going to?

[Mr Gray]

There is a particular problem regarding the Territorial Army and reservists in general. Whereas a regimental family closes around someone among the regulars who is bereaved or has mental problems, and regulars tend to live in the same place as where they are serving, reservists often come from right across the land, and there is a much less strong regimental hierarchy to look after them. Reservists need particular help from the Ministry of Defence.

[Oliver Colvile]

I was just about to make that point. Those people work and live in isolation. The problems that they have with decompression are enormous. When they come back, they do not necessarily have the same amount of time as regulars do to unwind and be debriefed. We need to look at that issue. When I was talking to a senior Royal Marine the other day, he said that it would be helpful if the decompression time for reservists could be longer. I urge the Minister to consider that.

Another issue that we need to look at is how the national health service is dealing with the matter. As I said, the question is not just about how the MOD deals with the issue, although the Minister has been doing excellent work on veterans. I support the way in which we will change the structures of the NHS. I voted for the legislation, and I think it is the right way of going about it, but will our general practitioners and commissioning boards be able to manage the matter? If GPs commission such services, how far up the agenda is the mental health issue going to be? How will policies be implemented? Will we have lead GPs taking an interest? I will most certainly be asking my GP commissioning board down in Plymouth how it is proposing to manage the issue. We must think the matter through. We in this place can pass legislation easily, but we must ensure that it is implemented and that we monitor the results.

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[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I, too, add my congratulations to the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing this important debate today. Raising the profile of the matter will in itself do much to enhance public recognition of the issue, and she spoke passionately and poignantly about the need to achieve that.

The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) made an excellent point in his comments, which is that we must cast the net a lot wider than the immediate conflicts that we are aware of in Iraq and Afghanistan. It will not be unusual for Members to hear me speak about what has happened in Northern Ireland. We have a walking community of forgotten heroes who have served the nation well and with gallantry, from the Ulster Defence Regiment, the Royal Irish Regiment, the British regular Army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Only today, as the situation has normalised, has there been a true opening and unfolding of the trauma and devastation in the lives of individuals who gave service to this nation, and the effect that the conflict had on their families. Families lived with service personnel who not only served our country but lived within the community that they were serving—it was a double impact. It is only now, in this new Northern Ireland, in a more peaceful society, that that is starting to unravel and unfold. We must ensure, as we have started to peel back the issue and look at what could be an appalling vista, that we as a country recognise that we have a responsibility to address the concerns that we are starting to discover.

Several former soldiers, from the Ulster Defence Regiment in particular, visited me in my constituency office. They had stopped serving in the late ’80s and early ’90s, and yet they were still talking about things that they saw that are impacting their lives now. They look back and recognise that the awful pictures that flash in their memory have had an impact on how they have lived their lives in the past 20 years, and on members of their community and family.

[Mr Gray]

What the hon. Gentleman is saying with great passion brings to mind an episode yesterday. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) was entertaining on the Terrace of the House of Commons one of the widows from the outrage of Ballykelly all those years ago, when 20-odd souls were killed in a pub. My hon. Friend was reminiscing about how he cradled his lance corporal in his arms. His lance corporal had lost all four limbs before he died. What sort of effect does that have, not on my hon. Friend—I am glad to say—who is remarkably well-balanced, but on any less well-balanced soldier? What possible effect will that have on the rest of their lives?

[Ian Paisley]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. I also had a constituent who visited me about this problem. He was a big, strong, tough frame of a man, but he was like a quivering autumn leaf when he started to tell me about what he had seen and what he remembered. Indeed, his constant memory was the sound of the scrape, scrape, scrape of the shovel that he had used to put his comrades and colleagues into a waste disposal bag after an outrage by the Provisional IRA. It is a burning memory that he will never forget and that woke him in the dead of night, leaving him soaked in sweat and crying out in fear, and yet it is a memory that he has had to bottle up and carry with him.

As a nation, we must take responsibility and recognise that there are things that can be done for these people we are talking about. They are not hopeless people; they are people whom we can actually give hope to, if, as the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles said, we first help to remove the stigma, and help people to recognise that there is help available and that they will not be stigmatised by going for that help. In fact, that help will only be of benefit to this community, this nation and indeed the NHS, which will have fewer problems to deal with as the years go on.

I hope that the passionate words that the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles put to this House this morning will be recognised and that we also recognise that post-traumatic stress disorder is not only about the immediate battles that we are aware of today but about the long-term problems that our country faces. More than 100,000 gallant soldiers from our nation passed through Northern Ireland in service and we are just starting to scrape the surface of this issue when we recognise that, 20 or 30 years after the conflict ends, there could be people who will come forward to say, “I have a problem because of what I saw, because of what I witnessed and because of what I went through as a serving personnel officer in Northern Ireland.” We must ensure that that issue is properly recognised.

The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles spoke about the capacity to take on board the cases that will come forward. I want to see that capacity extended, to ensure that the needs of Northern Ireland and of the soldiers there are also taken on board. The Big Lottery Fund money—the £35 million—that has been brought to our attention today will be a welcome spend and of course it must include spending on people who served in Northern Ireland under Operation Banner, to ensure that their issues are properly addressed.

I want to make a final point about the issue of stigma. We need a public champion who can be identified with this issue and whose association with it will give a boost and encouragement to those soldiers who are sitting at home, and perhaps staring into an empty glass, contemplating self-harm or having a fight with their children or other family members. That public champion will give those soldiers the ability to say, “There is someone who can help me; there is an organisation addressing what has affected me, and I can now see that I have someone to shoulder this burden and someone who can be a help or a crutch”, at the most important time—when they are at their most vulnerable. I hope that that public champion can be identified.

In addition, I love the idea of a GI Bill or something similar for the UK. There would be so much opportunity with such a Bill that we could build on, and I think that we could do things even better than they have been done in the US because this is a nation of people who come up with even better ideas than people in other nations do. We could learn from what has been done in the United States and come up with something really tremendous. I hope that this debate itself acts as a springboard and is a very hopeful and positive start to something that we can take great pride in.

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[Stephen Gilbert]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention, and she could not be more right about that issue. I chair the all-party group on housing and I have made it a particular business of mine to look at homelessness; in fact, I have applied to speak in an Adjournment debate on that very issue, Mr Dobbin. When I talk to organisations such as Centrepoint or St Mungo’s, it is absolutely clear that there is a particular problem with people who leave our armed forces and who are unable to adapt to civilian life and stabilise their housing needs. The hon. Lady makes a point that I hope the Minister will find time to address when he winds up the debate.

[Mr Gray]

I just wanted to intervene on that particular point, before the hon. Gentleman moves on. It is often anecdotally said that there are more people living on the streets who are from a service background than there are civilians and it is also anecdotally reported that there is a higher proportion of people in prison from the armed forces than there should be. However, I suspect that there has not been a proper statistical analysis of either of those issues and perhaps one of the things that the Government could usefully do is to come up with some hard facts to establish whether or not the anecdotal reports about those issues are actually correct.

[Stephen Gilbert]

My hon. Friend steals one of the key points that I was going to ask the Minister to respond to, but hopefully the fact that we are both making the same point will be better than just one of us making it, and so I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention.

The risk of suicide in army males under the age of 24 is two or three times greater than that of young males in the same age group in the general population. A recent study of 9,000 veterans showed that 20% of them had symptoms of common mental health problems and that 13% had symptoms of alcohol misuse. The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles is absolutely right that we should be entirely clear that mental health issues can affect anybody in any part of the population, and that we should try to move away from the stigma that is all too frequently associated with those issues. Indeed, it is my understanding that 25%, or a quarter, of British adults experience at least one diagnosable mental health problem in any one year, and that one in six experiences such a problem at any given time. Mental health problems are very pervasive in our society and we must tackle the taboo about discussing them.

I have spoken before in the House about the harm that alcohol abuse can cause, and that same study of veterans showed that 40% of the veterans who responded met the criteria for heavy drinkers; 27% of them met the criteria for very heavy drinkers; and 15% of them were classed as problem drinkers. Again, young men in the armed forces are more at risk than young men in the general population, with 36% of 16 to 19-year-olds in the armed forces drinking harmful amounts compared to just 8% of 16 to 19-year-olds in the general population.

It is right and proper that we do all we can to help those who have served our country, and not only while they are serving but after they leave the armed forces. That is why I welcome the recent pilots by the Department of Health and the Ministry of Defence to ensure that NHS health professionals have the appropriate support and available expertise to treat veterans with mental health problems. The four national health Departments, the UK Ministry of Defence and the charity Combat Stress have been working together closely to develop and pilot a new model of community-based mental health care, and I particularly welcome the fact that one of the pilots is in Liskeard in Cornwall, which is close to my constituency.

Nevertheless, we need to see what else we can do. At the moment, the support offered for the reintegration of former service personnel into civilian life is proportionate to the time they have served but, as we have seen, those with mental issues and other illnesses often need the most help, and we need to consider whether we have right the balance between the time we are putting into their transition and their needs. We also must ensure that when people leave armed forces medical care, their transfer into the NHS is seamless. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport made it absolutely clear that we need to look again at what happens to our reserve and territorial forces when they are demobilised, as they are increasingly part of our war-fighting mix. I welcome the previous Government’s reserves mental health programme, which aimed to tackle some of these issues.

We must redouble our efforts to raise awareness in the NHS, to help veterans who are concerned about their mental health. And it is not just within the NHS; there is an issue closer to the Minister’s own Department. The MOD’s website has only one link buried within it to a charitable organisation that can help with these kinds of issues, and I ask the Minister to undertake to see whether the website could be looked at, and the links made more prominent, so that people who are clicking through will be better signposted towards help.

In all the defence establishments that I have visited during the 18 months I have been an MP, and before that as a parliamentary candidate, I have seen awfully large numbers of posters, notice boards and other ways of conveying information to our forces, and I wonder whether they are being adequately exploited to signpost our armed service personnel to the help that they need. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) pointed out, we need more analysis and research into the wider consequences, and into whether we are providing the seamless support that we should, and to families as well.

Our service personnel never let us down. We ask them to do a difficult job under very difficult circumstances and they are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice, so it is vital that this Government maintain the military contract post their departure from uniformed service. We must not let them down either.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I did not intend to speak, and I see the little time available to us, so if I may I will hold the House for just a few minutes before the shadow Minister does her bit and the Minister, from whom I very much look forward to hearing, speaks.

First, I pay a warm tribute to everyone who has spoken so far in the debate, in particular to the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). She and I might not agree on many subjects, but on this one I think we are entirely ad idem. Everything she said was absolutely right. This issue is terribly important and she has raised it in a timely way. I also pay particular tribute to my next-door neighbour, in constituency terms, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), whose seminal work on this subject fulfilled a coalition agreement commitment to do something about the mental health conditions of the armed services. His report was extremely good, and it has given the Government a series of pointers as to what they can now do about this terrible problem.

I think that we are unanimous about the fact that there is this problem. I was struck by a conversation I had yesterday with my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), who sends his apologies for not being here. He was having a drink on the terrace with a young lady who was the widow of one of his soldiers. He recounted how when he was digging into the pub in Ballykelly, she insisted on calling him “sir” throughout the time she was struggling to escape from the mud and dirt, and how he said, “You don’t need to call me ‘sir’ under these conditions. Your husband is dead beside you; we can forget the ‘sir’.” What kind of effect can that kind of episode, in which someone cradles a dying soldier who has lost all four limbs, have on those who are left behind? My hon. Friend is one of the most well-balanced individuals I know, and I am not for a second suggesting that he has any such problems, but how many people will have had similar experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq, and how many soldiers who have had such an experience know what effect it will have on them in later life?

I remember speaking to a 19-year-old sniper when I was visiting Afghanistan last year. I asked him, “How many confirmed kills have you got as a sniper?” and he replied, “I’ve got 34 confirmed, and a further 26 probables”, so something like 50 or 60. I asked, “Doesn’t that worry you?” and he said, “No, sir, it’s no trouble at all. It’s a blur at the end of the sight, and I pull the trigger and do my job and that’s that. It has absolutely no effect whatsoever.” Who are we to say whether when that young lad is 50 or 60 he will have some form of effect from that experience? It is therefore incredibly important that we address this grave issue. I pay tribute to Help for Heroes and to my constituents in Wootton Bassett and across the area, who have done great stuff with bereaved families and soldiers coming back from theatre of war with injuries, but this is a much more invisible problem. We should be just as aware of it, even though the average time before a patient realises his problem is 14 years after the incident, and it may well be 20 or 30 years. It is important that as a society we do something about the problem.

Having agreed that—I am sure that everyone here today will strongly be in agreement—it is much more difficult to say precisely what to do. It is very easy to say, “Isn’t this an awful problem? Mustn’t we do something about it?” Well, yes, but what do we actually do? Two or three interesting proposals have come up in the debate. The first, and as I come from the Territorial Army myself I think this is very important, is that we should ask the reserve forces carefully to consider precisely what they can do. Very often, TA people coming back from the theatre of war leave the reserve forces within a year or two. They do not particularly want to carry on much beyond that, and they then disappear into civilian life and are gone for ever. We do not know where they are or who they are, and they may well be suffering from these same problems. We must find a way of pinning down where our reserve forces go when they retire, and do something about it.

[Mrs Linda Riordan in the Chair]

The second problem that people talked about very convincingly earlier was that of stigma and of people feeling that they do not want to come forward, and I think that that particularly applies to the testosterone-filled young men we send off to war—and women to a degree, but not the testosterone. They come back and do not want to say, “I’m a bit daft. I’ve gone a bit loopy. There’s something wrong with me.” The ethos is not to say that, and we have to find a way of encouraging them to believe that it is a normal thing to do, that they can perfectly sensibly bring themselves forward and say, “I’ve got a problem here, and I need some help.”

One thing we might want to think about doing is this. Some 10 or 15 years ago, our servicemen coming back injured from the theatre of war felt very uncomfortable being in civilian wards in Birmingham. No one is saying that they were not well looked after, but only a year or two after the conflicts began the previous Government introduced military-style care in Birmingham. Armed servicemen feel at home and relaxed in such an arena, and I think that something similar has to apply to mental health. Too many civilian mental health workers do not understand the problems, which may well present many years after the incidents that cause them. Particularly in areas such as mine and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), where there are very large numbers of armed servicemen, we have to find a way of saying to our primary care trusts, “This sort of problem is coming your way over the years. You have to find a quasi-military way of dealing with it. You have to realise that military life is different from civilian life and that these are different problems from civilian mental health problems, so let’s find a specifically military way of dealing with them. Let’s keep in touch with the armed services and find out precisely what they know about post-traumatic stress disorder and the rest of it, and let’s find a military solution to what is a military problem, albeit within a civilian environment.”

This has been a useful debate. We have raised the issue very satisfactorily and the armed services, which are aware of the problems, will, I think, be grateful to us for having done so. But it is very easy to do two things. First, it is easy to exaggerate the problem, and it would be useful if the Minister could initiate a statistical analysis of how many people it affects in a real sense. Earlier, we discussed prisons, alcohol and homelessness. How much of that is caused specifically by combat, and how much is in the normal run of human beings? There are 200,000 people in the armed services. A number of them will be drunken or homeless. That is the nature of the beast. How much of that is caused by military service, and how much is incidental to it?

So first, we must not exaggerate the issue. Secondly, we must not just take political capital from expressing our sympathy and concern; in debates such as this, we must make specific proposals about what we can actually do to lessen this problem in our society. I look forward to hearing from the shadow Minister and, perhaps more importantly, from the Minister, on what we can do about this dreadful problem.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing this debate on an important and topical issue. More importantly, I thank Neil for coming along today and allowing us to hear his story, which has both provided a context for our discussion and put a face on the issue that we are debating.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss these issues with the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan). We have spent much time during the past year discussing the Armed Forces Bill and the armed forces covenant. The Bill has now received Royal Assent, so it is perhaps fitting that as we come to the end of the year, we are again discussing the welfare of our brave serving personnel and veterans and the impact on their families.

My right hon. Friend painted an honest and vivid picture of the problem of veterans’ mental health. It is easy to be preoccupied with the scenes from Afghanistan that we still see and not to pay as much attention to the issues facing service personnel and their families when they leave the forces or return from theatre. We know that they are skilled, highly trained and resilient people, but more than 180,000 personnel have served in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, as we have heard, and a significant number will have returned with mental ill health or will, sadly, go on to develop problems later in life. We should be prepared to deal with that and ensure that the right facilities and support are in place to diagnose and treat such conditions.

Significant progress has been made in recent years, particularly through mental health pilot schemes and work done since then, to improve support and treatment for personnel suffering from mental health problems, but no party has a monopoly on wisdom when it comes to improving services for our forces. We have all met constituents who have told us about their experiences. We have heard about some of those and about Members’ personal experiences of the issues.

I emphasise the importance of the current campaign by Combat Stress about the stigma attached to mental health, which my right hon. Friend mentioned. Combat Stress provides an invaluable service to veterans around the country. Its centres and outreach work allow veterans to get the help and support that they need in a specialised environment, along with other veterans going through similar experiences. Combat Stress’s “The Enemy Within” campaign seeks to tackle the stigma that, unfortunately, can be a barrier to people getting the support and help that they need.

However, the work of Combat Stress and of many other important organisations and charities such as the Royal British Legion should not give the Ministry of Defence or the Government an excuse to opt out of their responsibilities, or indeed ours. It is important that we do not view the services offered by the voluntary and charitable sector as a replacement for acting ourselves. Such organisations should complement, not replace, the services that the Government offer. The voluntary and charitable sector is facing a tough time at the moment. Forces charities are spared some of that pain by generous ongoing public support, but we should not assume that those services will always exist and will always have enough funding to run.

Government should decide what services they have a duty to provide and should fund them properly. The Government need not always be the vehicle to deliver those services, as we have heard, but they can fund experts such as Combat Stress to do so on their behalf. This Government should also consider how mental health services for veterans or anyone else who needs them can be guaranteed when their national health service reforms are removing accountability. Again, we have discussed that already.

Those in the forces are trained to be strong, resilient and able to push through any challenge that stands in their way. That does not lend itself easily to admitting that one needs help because of a mental health problem. My right hon. Friend highlighted the high proportion of veterans suffering from a mental health condition—a staggering 81%—who are embarrassed by or ashamed of their condition and do not feel able to come forward. We have also discussed the average length of time it takes people to present in search of support, which is about 13 years. I understand that there are examples of people who have waited up to 40 years to get help. We must do all that we can to change that situation. We cannot just let it continue.

Combat Stress has also provided detailed evidence involving cases of individuals who have faced marriage break-up, unemployment, social isolation or substance abuse, all because they were unable to deal with their mental health. My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) mentioned homelessness as well. We should be concerned about the figures, and I agree that it is right that we should seek to quantify the problem. The figures show that, even though help and support exist, too many people still find the stigma far too great to overcome. Until we tackle that stigma, no matter what support is out there, there will be no real change. Combat Stress’s campaign focusing on the issue of stigma is vital.

We have spent much of this year’s parliamentary debates on the forces discussing legislating for the covenant, so it is welcome that we are now debating the substance of the issues covered by the covenant and what it should mean in practice. It is right that nobody who serves their country in the forces should be disadvantaged as a result of their service. In some ways, however, getting the Government to enshrine that in law was the easy bit. The Government must now take action to implement the covenant so that we can see what it means in practice. I would welcome information from the Minister about the planned implementation of the covenant and how the Government intend to ensure that Departments and public bodies audit and change their policies to give our forces, our veterans and their families a fair deal.

My right hon. Friend highlighted the need to recognise how many veterans suffer from mental health issues. My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), the previous veterans’ Minister, announced plans when he was in post for a veterans’ ID card. The card would have enabled veterans to be identified easily and to get priority NHS treatment.

As we have discussed, it is difficult to quantify the level of need. Without a tracking system for veterans, we will never be able to do so. My right hon. Friend has asked in written questions how many ex-service people are being treated for mental health problems on the NHS, but there is no record, so the Minister replying was simply unable to give an answer because the data do not exist. Being unable to quantify the problem makes the Government unable to quantify the true cost of treating mental illness among former members of the armed forces. Therefore, the true impact is unknown at the moment. A veterans’ card would enable the Government to track veterans and offer the right support to those who need it.

In the Armed Forces Bill Committee, on which the Minister and I both served, the Minister reiterated his opposition to introducing an ID card, but the Government agreed earlier this year to launch a veterans’ privilege card allowing veterans to access commercial discounts. That is welcome, but I urge the Minister to look beyond discount schemes and extend those proposals, and to use the card as a way to ensure that veterans can access the support that they require when they need it.

[Mr Gray]

I am puzzled as to why the deeply bureaucratic and complicated system of issuing 5 million people with a piece of paper would help those suffering from mental stress many years after service to come forward and ask for the help that they need. I am not certain as to why that is a solution to the problem under discussion.

[Gemma Doyle]

The proposals were not overly complicated. The initial proposal was to start issuing a veterans’ card to people who are leaving the services now, not necessarily to go back and identify the 5 million people, because, as the Minister has told me, he cannot identify them. If we do not start to make some changes, we will never be able to quantify the problems. When we are able to know who the people are, the right support and services can be offered to them and contact can be maintained where it is wanted to ensure that the services are being delivered. Then, when an individual presents with a mental health problem, they can clearly be identified as a veteran and we will be able to see the problem much more clearly.

Armed Forces Bill

James Gray Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy]

The Minister has already indicated that both Governments did not really resolve this issue. The previous Government examined it carefully. Lord Touhig, the then Member for Islwyn, raised it on a number of occasions, both by way of an Adjournment debate and elsewhere, but he got nowhere with the Government of whom I had been a member. Nevertheless, it is important that the Minister understands the huge strength of feeling on this issue up and down the country. This is not about taking away the powers of the sovereign and it is not about the prerogative; it is about dealing with the simple issue that veterans who fought in Malaya in the 1960s should be allowed to wear the medal which they have been allowed to accept.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I rise briefly to echo many of the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). A significant number of my constituents cannot understand why they are not being allowed to wear the PJM medal. They are puzzled as they believe it to be a genuine medal, and it was gazetted as such in the London Gazette in the 1960s. I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but I am persuaded by the Minister’s statement that he intends to examine the procedure by which these things are decided. I agree with him that the Lords amendment may not be the right way to address this problem. I am therefore persuaded to support the Government in voting against the Lords amendment, on the understanding that he will indeed carry out a genuine reconsideration of the process. By that means, he may well help my constituents who are puzzled by the law that says they cannot currently wear the PJM medal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gemma Doyle]

Indeed. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) has highlighted why so many veterans feel that the decision is unfair.

The wearing of the PJM has been raised in the House in the past, both in Adjournment debates and in several early-day motions calling for reform of the HD committee system or requesting that the Government make representations to the committee to bring about change and ensure that veterans have the right to wear their medal. Signatories of the early-day motion included the familiar names of the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), the present Under-Secretary of State for Defence, and the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), now the Minister for the Armed Forces, who are not on the Treasury Bench at present, but frequently are when the House debates defence issues.

The hon. Member for North Devon also signed a motion specifically calling for an exemption and noting the differences with other Commonwealth nations. Given the Ministers’ previous support for PJM holders, I hope it is not too much to ask them, along with the other 51 Government Members who have signed early-day motions supporting PJM holders, to support the Lords amendment today. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State is chuntering from a sedentary position, but I advise him to listen to the argument being made today.

Concerns have been expressed about the precedent that the amendment could set, but we must remember that it seeks to address a very specific set of circumstances—that veterans be allowed to wear a Commonwealth medal that they have earned, been awarded and been permitted to accept.

Members may be aware, however, that the Government have faced similar situations in the past. The Russian convoy 40th anniversary medal was awarded to British veterans in 1985, after negotiations between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Russia. Like the PJM, although veterans were able to receive it, they were not allowed to wear it until 1994 when, after further negotiations and lobbying, veterans were given permission to proudly display their commendations. Ministers talk about precedent, but it seems that a precedent already exists that would permit the wearing of the PJM.

I do not suggest that we start using legislation routinely as a vehicle for decisions on medals, but in this instance it is clear that Members feel that the process is not working. My office receives frequent inquiries from people who are not constituents of mine but are entirely frustrated by the medals system and the lack of information about the review, in which the Minister places so much faith.

[Mr Gray]

rose—

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

rose—

[Gemma Doyle]

I am not giving way at the moment. I know that the Minister had to re-open the consultation on the medals review as the proper consultees were not initially involved.

[Mr Gray]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. I am amazed that she shows no tint of political embarrassment about the blatant political opportunism of promising now to do something that her Government refused to do for 13 years. Will she not be satisfied with the fact that my right hon. Friend the Minister announced that there will be a review of the PJM, which is an important point? The Lords amendment is not about the PJM; it is about all Commonwealth medals. Surely she can understand that those of us who feel strongly about the PJM on behalf of constituents should be satisfied with the fact that the Government are prepared to review it—something that her party was never prepared to do.

[Gemma Doyle]

The hon. Gentleman is making a somewhat better case than the Minister made. As he supports the principle of the amendment, I hope he might reconsider and join us in the Lobby this evening.

In conclusion, I welcome the strengthening of the armed forces covenant in the Bill. It offers veterans, as well as service personnel and families, the protections that they deserve. Supporting the amendment would be an indication of the approach that the Government intend to take in moving forward in the spirit of the new legislation on the armed forces covenant.

Afghanistan

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

If I have got it wrong I will correct myself, but I am pretty sure that I said “cross-party” support, and resisted the temptation to say that there was support in all parts of the House.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Public recognition of service and sacrifice in Afghanistan is terribly important. The good people of Royal Wootton Bassett were delighted to welcome the new Secretary of State and the Prime Minister there on Sunday. Will my right hon. Friend similarly try to find time in his diary to be at the north door of Westminster Hall on 31 October at 3.30 in the afternoon to welcome in 3 Commando Brigade as they return from Afghanistan?

[Mr Hammond]

That was in the diary of my predecessor, and it remains in my own diary.

Defence Transformation

James Gray Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

I fear you might be disappointed, Mr Speaker. We have said very clearly that we will maintain a constant footprint in Northern Ireland and that we are committed to that and to using the bases in Northern Ireland for some of those returning from Germany. The House should remember, however, that the purpose of having the Army in Northern Ireland was not primarily security inside Northern Ireland itself.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Unlike others, the people of North Wiltshire, particularly those in Lyneham and Wootton Bassett who said goodbye only last week to the Hercules fleet, will warmly welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement that the defence technical training establishment is to move to Lyneham. That is very good news for the area. Will he confirm first that that will mean 1,500 to 2,000 people moving in; secondly, that it will happen reasonably swiftly; and, thirdly, that it is possible that Lyneham will become a hub for defence training in the future?

[Dr Fox]

I am delighted that my hon. Friend is so happy at the announcement about Lyneham. I am also particularly pleased that the phenomenal service not only of those who have served in and around Lyneham but of those who live in the vicinity is being fully rewarded. I confirm that there will be around 1,500 posts initially, although that number may rise over time, and that the initial move will be in 2013-14.

Oral Answers to Questions

James Gray Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the Minister. I call Mr James Gray.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

There can be no finer sight than the last four Hercules from RAF Lyneham flying down the line of the high street of Wootton Bassett on Friday afternoon on the way to Brize Norton, but does the Minister agree that it might not be possible, nor indeed quite right, to seek to replicate the Wootton Bassett effect elsewhere, as that was a chapter in our history? I am not sure we necessarily want to see it repeated elsewhere.

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The route from Lyneham to Oxford passes straight through the centre of Wootton Bassett, and the route from Brize Norton to Oxford is being drawn so that it can go past somewhere where people can pay their respects. As my hon. Friend will know, the facilities at RAF Lyneham were fairly ad hoc, but we have now built a repatriation centre which, I have to say, is very impressive. It will be finished at the end of July, and I think people will come to realise that this is a different situation, and that the RAF, Oxfordshire county council and the police are doing the right thing for the bereaved and the servicemen who have been killed.

Armed Forces Bill

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Llwyd]

I thank the hon. Lady for her very generous comments, but I visited the United States in September and I visited the veterans’ agency. It is the second largest Department of State in the United States and it costs an absolute fortune to run. It was put in place, I believe, because the United States had to deal with the fallout of Vietnam. There is a much smaller scale operation in Canada. In an ideal world, the hon. Lady would be right, but in these straitened circumstances, it would be rather unrealistic of me to make that call. I hope that in the not-too-distant future we, too, will have such a Department. I do not make that call now, because I do not think it is realistic so to do.

I take the hon. Lady’s point about my amendments being prescriptive and so on. It is a moot point: I may well be wrong and she may be right; I do not know. One thing we should consider urgently, however, as I have mentioned, is having a Minister in the Cabinet Office to cross-cut all available services and to consider everything in each Department that might or might not impact on veterans. I think that would be a useful step forward, albeit that it is not so dramatic a step as a veterans’ Department, which, at the end of the day, she and I would undoubtedly favour although it is perhaps unrealistic to call for it at this stage.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I am a little uneasy about the right hon. Gentleman’s proposal about a Minister in the Cabinet Office and about the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Mrs Mensch) for a Department for veterans’ affairs. It seems to me that the Secretary of State for Defence, the three services under him and under them the regiments and units to which people are attached are responsible for looking after veterans when they leave the services. To remove that responsibility from them and to give it to somebody else in the Cabinet Office or a separate Department would seem to me to be quite wrong.

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Gentleman misses my point. That Minister would look at every single Department in turn, including the MOD, and when there was some form of engagement with veterans in that Department he or she would report accordingly on whatever he or she found to be the case. The responsibility would ultimately still lie with the military. I say, with the greatest of respect to the hon. Gentleman and those from the military who might be listening, that hitherto the military has not been very good at looking after veterans and that is why I am on my feet at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Llwyd]

They certainly did, but the hon. Gentleman and I can argue about that elsewhere. I am sure that they did; I would not say so otherwise.

[Mr Gray]

May I make a subtler point, rather than disputing the numbers? Although some of the people we are discussing may theoretically be veterans, in that they may have served in the armed services at some time, the only ones we should be concerned about and who need special care of the kind being described would be those who have recently left the armed services, possibly having had combat experience, and those whose crimes can be directly attributable to their service. The mere fact that someone perhaps did national service 30 years ago should not necessarily distinguish them from other prisoners.

[Mr Llwyd]

I agree. The only slight note of caution I would add is that, whatever the figure, there are a number of cases of post-traumatic stress disorder and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, PTSD can show itself within a month or can take 15 years to develop.

New clause 5 sets out that financial support shall be made available for ex-services personnel. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the invaluable work of service charities. New clause 5 also sets out the importance of conducting a study of the services already available to veterans, which would provide a baseline for future progress. There is perhaps a little too much room for overlap in some services, whereas some needs are hardly catered for at all. Joining services together and learning from best practice would establish a holistic means to tackle the problem.

Finally, new clause 6 would establish a veterans’ policy forum that would draw its membership from the statutory, private and voluntary sectors. The aim of this forum would be to consult the Government on best practice in the treatment of veterans and their welfare. This once again rests on the vital importance of those with vested interests in this field working together so that no veteran will be made to feel abandoned by a system that is unable to tackle the peculiar problems they might face. I note that a number of amendments surrounding the military covenant have now been withdrawn. I know not what the reason for that is, but I conclude by saying that having the covenant in statutory form is a historic step. I hope that our debates on these clauses will lead to further action being taken in the not-too-distant future as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gemma Doyle]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his observations. I certainly appreciate his concerns. There is great concern among the families who are involved in the issue. Based on their reflections, I believe that further attention needs to be given to the matter.

[Mr Gray]

The hon. Lady is being extremely generous with her time. I am slightly concerned by her observation that the amendment has come about as a result of representations from families. My experience, bearing in mind that all the inquests in recent years occur in Wiltshire, is that families are extremely well satisfied with Mr Masters, who has been the main coroner involved. I am not certain that there is a huge problem to be solved.

[Gemma Doyle]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the office of the chief coroner was set up, following a great deal of consultation, to address issues that were raised. Indeed, it was established with cross-party support. Those issues have not gone away as far as I am aware, although I respect his experience in this matter. There have been varying reports from around the country, and that may be where the difference lies.

The office of the chief coroner is to be abolished by the Public Bodies Bill as a cost-saving measure. The Royal British Legion calls this “a betrayal” of bereaved armed forces families which threatens the military covenant. That intention was confirmed today in a written ministerial statement. I understand that the Government say they are transferring responsibilities, but the improvements that the new chief coroner’s office would have brought about will now be lost.

Queen Victoria School, Dunblane (Military Covenant)

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to have the debate under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I am delighted that the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) is present to take part in it, not least because he grew up in the town in which Queen Victoria school is situated. I am also delighted to have been offered the opportunity to introduce this short debate on Queen Victoria school, Dunblane, and its contribution to the military covenant.

As far as I have been able to trace, this is the first time that there has been a specific debate on Queen Victoria school, even though it has been in existence since it opened in 1908. It is therefore worth highlighting for the record the reasons for its foundation, the original aims of the school, why it was an early manifestation of what we now call the military covenant and why it deserves to continue making its unique contribution.

Built through subscriptions from serving personnel and other interested parties, Queen Victoria school was created in memory of those who had died in the South African wars of the late 19th century. At that time, it was for boys only. It was opened on 28 September 1908 by King Edward VII. At that time, he also laid the foundation stone for the school chapel, which was completed in 1910 and is Scotland’s memorial to Queen Victoria. Various buildings have been added over the years, including the Macmillan sports hall to mark 50 years of the school’s existence. Other changes included the admission of girls in 1996 and the move to a staff comprised almost entirely of civilians.

The school has always been under the control of the Ministry of Defence in its various manifestations; in fact, the school was administered originally under the auspices of the Department of War. The school was established under royal warrant. The situation was unique. The warrant was initiated by Queen Victoria but enacted by her son, King Edward VII, who signed it in 1908.

The warrant is interestingly worded. It says that the Department of War shall take over the said buildings—those that had been built by subscription—

“to uphold the same in proper condition and repair, and to efficiently maintain therein a School as aforesaid…under the name and title of the Queen Victoria School for the Sons of Scottish Sailors and Soldiers; As also out of funds to be voted in Parliament to meet and defray the whole cost of such maintenance, and all rates, taxes, feu-duties…and other annual and other outgoings in respect thereof”.

The warrant also states that the then Secretary of State—in continuum, I suppose, through to the current one—

“further undertakes for himself… that the Said School and Chapel shall be maintained in perpetuity as a Scottish School in Scotland for the Sons of Scottish Sailors and Soldiers, that it shall be so maintained, managed, and administered on the lines indicated in a Royal Warrant which His Majesty is to be asked graciously to grant”.

I am sure that the Minister has looked over the royal warrant. It is an impressive piece of drafting, which is designed to make the warrant watertight against the exigencies of future pressures, whether financial or otherwise. I can imagine that at more than one point in the school’s history, the warrant has been pored over with great precision by MOD lawyers to try to discover whether there is a get-out clause.

The school was established to educate children of “other ranks”—in other words, not the children of officers. For most of its history, that has essentially been the pool of children from which pupils have been drawn. There are pupils whose parents are or may be officers, but for the most part, those parents have come through the ranks. From the outside, with its large campus, playing fields and, dare I say it, the somewhat Victorian if not slightly gothic look of some of the older buildings—I am sure that the hon. Member for North Wiltshire recognises that description—it looks like any other private boarding school, yet it is unique.

When the school was established, and through the greater part of its history, it would have offered pupils a very different experience from what is gained there now. From my observations of that history, there is no doubt that there was an emphasis on training the boys—only boys at that time—of soldiers and sailors to follow in their fathers’ footsteps. For reasons that were prevalent at the time, and perhaps things that we do not quite understand now, it was not considered particularly important to open out options, particularly academic options, for those boys. The education would undoubtedly have been based on the model of the day: a strong emphasis on discipline—probably a harsh discipline—and on training and drill; and strong encouragement to follow dad into the Army or Navy.

The governance of the school is undertaken by Her Majesty’s commissioners, with the current and long-standing patron being the Duke of Edinburgh. A comparison between the list of commissioners of only 30-odd years ago and those of today is informative. It gives an immediate impression of how the school has developed and now takes more account of modern educational and pastoral practice. A glance at the list of commissioners in 1974, for example, would, I think, cause us some concern in today’s world. There is General Sir Philip, Admiral Sir Angus, General Sir Gordon, Air Marshal Sir Brian, Air Vice-Marshal A.—whoever A. is—a Major-General, a Lieutenant-General and a Vice-Admiral Sir. There is not a woman in sight until we get to the name of the residential school nurse. The ultimate authority at that time was not a head teacher, but a commandant, who was a retired brigadier. I am sure that they were all good men—I certainly do not wish to impugn the character of any of those who were commissioners at the time—but I suspect that they were drawn from a very elite pool and had very little if any educational experience apart from that of their own school days.

That contrasts with today’s commissioners. The chairman, Bart McGettrick, is an eminent educationist with a national and international reputation. The commissioners, although still with their quota of military personnel as dictated by the original warrant, are drawn from a wider pool, including a Scottish woman sheriff who has extensive expertise in child care matters, and a local chartered accountant who lives in Dunblane, Mr Alan Plumtree.

The school also has links to the Stirling state network and the wider Scottish independent school network. Those links have been developed during the past 14 years or so and bring to the school a wider ambit of educational experience. Although no Stirling head teacher is currently serving as a commissioner, there was one until recently. I trust that that important connection with both the mainstream state sector and the local educational sector will not be lost in future commissioner appointments.

However, I wish to highlight the contribution of Queen Victoria school to the modern military covenant. I want to test the Minister on one or two points to ensure not only that he currently values its contribution, but that the MOD takes seriously the commitment made in 1908 of support “in perpetuity”.

Although QVS has changed over its 103 years, it still provides stability and continuity of education within the Scottish system for the children of armed forces personnel who are Scottish, have served in Scotland or are part of a Scottish regiment. That means that the pupils’ parents can be in the Scottish regiments. Indeed, I know from my own experience that there are young Fijian children at the school, as well as children whose parents have volunteered for the Scottish regiments.

Sadly, the school is still needed in the same way it ever was. Although there are fewer orphans at the school nowadays, about 50% of the children were orphans at one point, because they had priority in the admissions process. Improved medical techniques mean that there are far more survivors of military conflicts, but some parents who return will be seriously disabled, and children of such battlefield survivors are coming before the QVS admissions board. In August, there will be at least one new pupil whose father is an amputee from a current conflict.

Unquestionably, many QVS families—probably the majority—could not afford boarding education for their children, even if they were in receipt of the continuity of education allowance. The MOD is tightening the CEA eligibility criteria, but even those who are still eligible will have to pay about 10% of their fees, as well as the extras levied by fee-paying schools. Such things would be beyond the means of most families with children at QVS. Even under the rumoured plans for more static Army, Air Force and Royal Navy units, there will still be some need for mobility, and that will not be limited to those—mainly officers—who can afford boarding with the help of the CEA.

There is also a sound educational justification for the MOD to maintain its commitment to QVS. A recent Ofsted report on the education of children of military families clearly identified the fact that there were significant issues with the quality of the educational experience of children whose parents were mobile or on active deployment. It noted:

“A key feature of life in the Armed Forces is that families are likely to move home, to different parts of the UK and abroad, on a regular basis. The number of moves will be dependent on the length of service of the serving parent and their role within the Armed Forces… However…parents invariably identified the disruption, caused by their geographical mobility, as beingj the biggest challenge faced by themselves and their children. Disruption is further exacerbated for children in these families as they had to change schools generally outside of normal school term dates”,

which adds to their difficulties.

Those are the very children QVS caters for, and the constantly improving educational achievement at the school is testimony to what it does. The exam results at QVS are above the Scottish average at O-grade and higher levels. The increasing ambitions of the children and their parents are being realised. On visits to the school over the past few years, I have seen that the young people leaving the school are going to university and college in greater numbers than ever before—something that I did not see when I became the MP for the area some years ago.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Lady on the excellence of the debate. I lived in Dunblane all my formative years and saw the superb education provided at Queen Victoria school. I entirely take her point about children of military families moving around. Does she agree that it is extremely disappointing that we have a Queen Victoria school in Scotland but no equivalent in England? Is it not time that we had one down here, too?

[Mrs McGuire]

The Minister might be venturing a step too far if he answers that at this point, but the MOD should perhaps take the QVS model slightly more seriously, particularly in some of the discussions it is having about the continuity of education allowance, because there are perhaps some options there.

I have some brief questions for the Minister. Given the importance of the military covenant, will he make it clear that his Department recognises the contribution of QVS and does not see it as some anachronism from a bygone age? I use the word “anachronism” because it was used in a report by the Select Committee on Defence four or five years ago, although the Committee also recognised the importance of maintaining the school.

Does the Minister recognise that mobile service personnel who cannot afford to access the continuity of education allowance should have their children’s needs supported and that QVS offers a valuable resource to meet those needs? I am sure the Minister has heard the comments of the hon. Member for North Wiltshire on the issue.

Will the Minister encourage his officials to work with the commissioners to look at options to expand the facilities at QVS and to use them and the school’s expertise to the benefit of a greater number of the children of mobile service personnel, giving them the opportunity to benefit from the stability and pastoral care offered by the school?

Next week, we will have armed forces day. On 24 June, QVS will have its grand day—a mixture of school prize-giving and end-of-term celebration. I hope that the Minister, before he perhaps moves on to higher offices in another Department—

Nuclear Deterrent

James Gray Excerpts

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

It would be hard to make a less eloquent case for Scottish independence! It is important that we recognise that defence was retained in the UK Parliament in the devolution settlement and that decisions about national security are taken by this House of Commons. Given the attitudes of the Scottish National party, the whole of the United Kingdom should be grateful.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

It is of course always open for any political party or any part of any political party to take a different view from Her Majesty’s Government. Can the Secretary of State think of any precedent whatsoever for public money, ministerial time and resources being used to bolster and examine the manifesto commitment of one particular party that might or might not be part of the coalition?

[Dr Fox]

There are realities of coalition government that simply have to be faced. As part of the coalition agreement, we made it very clear that we would continue and move to the decisions I have announced today, but we also made it clear that the Liberal Democrats, as one of the coalition partners, would be free to make the case for alternatives. We have lived up to that commitment today.

Submarines and Frigates (Plymouth)

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I thank the Speaker’s Panel for selecting the subject of base-porting destroyers and submarines in my constituency for this debate, and I thank you, Mrs Brooke, for chairing it. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter) will try to make an appearance—he has been caught up on the train—because he is keen to support the debate. I realise that the Government are still considering their base-porting strategy, and that the Minister may not be able to give me many answers at this stage. However, I hope he will take my arguments into account during the few weeks remaining before the decision on base-porting is made.

More than 25,000 people in the Plymouth travel-to-work area are employed in the defence industry, either through contractors or in the armed forces. That and the university have been a magnet for a cluster of maritime industries in a part of the country that is dependent on the public sector for employment. In the next few moments, I want to concentrate on the context of Plymouth Devonport within the strategic defence and security review, Devonport’s strategic case as a principal naval port, the benefits of base-porting frigates, destroyers and submarines in Plymouth, Plymouth’s economic dependency on the naval base and our dockyard, and the social and economic consequences of any further reduction in Plymouth as a strategic naval port.

In my submission to the Government’s strategic defence and security review last summer, I made it clear that as a maritime nation we need a strong Royal Navy. The United Kingdom’s basis for our defence should continue to operate through NATO and its framework of collective security, and our relationship with the United States of America. However, that contribution should reflect our geography, maritime history, and our trade and other relationships throughout the world. In that context, the UK’s obvious contribution to NATO should be sea and air power, supplemented with our amphibious and special forces capability.

The naval role should explicitly equip the UK to undertake naval policing responsibilities, including dealing with piracy, drug trafficking and international environmental responsibilities such as conservation of our fish stocks. In addition, the Navy should be equipped to offer more effective international assistance to countries and communities experiencing the consequences of natural and other disasters when they need assistance from the international community, as part of an explicit deployment of soft power as an arm of foreign and defence policy. The implication of that judgment about the UK’s role in NATO is that the Navy should be larger and equipped with greater transport and logistical capability. I fully support the building of the two new aircraft carriers. The Air Force should be maintained to provide effective air power, with multi-purpose aircraft in sufficient numbers to protect the homeland and to wage state-on-state warfare. In addition, it should be equipped with much greater heavy-lifting and cargo-moving capacity.

In my submission, I added that politics is about making political priorities. I welcomed the Chancellor’s decision to reduce the financial envelope of public expenditure in general and to cut the deficit during the lifetime of this Parliament, but I stressed that government is about reordering priorities, and that spending on defence should have a greater emphasis within our budget. Defence spending has fallen not only as a share of national income, but as a proportion of total Government expenditure. The study by the Office for National Statistics in 2009 on public sector output productivity between 1997 and 2007 exemplifies, among other things, how public expenditure priorities have been changed. The weight given to defence within general Government expenditure by service weight fell from 15.1% to 11%. That shows that, during a period of increased international risk when we engaged in more than two protracted operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, and public spending was rising rapidly, the priority given to defence was reduced. In my judgment, those priorities must be reversed.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point: that at time like this, we should not cut defence spending. Does he not agree, however, that we have sold the pass on that issue because of the appalling legacy that we inherited from the previous Government? It is now essential that from 2015, no matter what the world looks like, we must see the uplift in defence spending that has been promised for the subsequent five years, without which this country will never again hold its head up in the world.

[Oliver Colvile]

The decision has been made, but other issues must be taken into account. I agree that we inherited a £38 billion shortfall, which needs attention. I also agree that from 2015 we must ensure that we have the ability to build up our capacity.

Armed Forces Redundancies

James Gray Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Robathan]

All 11,000 redundancies are termed compulsory. We are hoping that we will receive volunteers for as many posts as possible, but we are not just going to accept volunteers because some of them will be people we wish to keep, so we will not want them to enter the redundancy programme.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

We all very much regret every single compulsory redundancy under this deficit-driven SDSR, but we none the less accept they have to happen. Does the Minister agree that it is terribly important that those involved are given the most generous possible conditions of redundancy, whether voluntary or compulsory, in keeping, of course, with their normal terms of service?

[Mr Robathan]

Yes, I do agree. Individuals will find that the terms of redundancy are generous and attractive, which is why we expect a lot of people to volunteer.