Trident
Debate between James Cartlidge and Neale Hanvey(10 months ago)
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The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey) for initiating this debate. We have had a number of exchanges on this matter including, for example, in Defence oral questions.
The key point is that every day since April 1969, there has been at least one nuclear-armed Royal Navy submarine at sea, helping to keep the United Kingdom safe—the whole of the United Kingdom. In January 1980, when the House debated the successor programme to Polaris, which led to Trident—the title of this debate—the Secretary of State for Defence, Lord Pym, boiled down the Government’s position to one essential point. While acknowledging the “horrendous” nature of nuclear weapons and regretting that we could not “disinvent” them, he concluded that Britain needed to be a nuclear power because of what it would contribute to NATO’s strategy of deterrence and, through that, to our own national security.
Essentially, that has been the position of every UK Government since then. The renewal of the nuclear deterrent was approved by an overwhelming majority of 355 votes in this House in 2016, and it remains this Government’s position today. In 1980 the debate was framed by the cold war, but in 2024 the threats facing our country have multiplied and become far more complex. The number of nuclear states has grown, while Putin’s aggression and intransigence have set back the prospect of nuclear disarmament more broadly. Russia still holds around 6,000 warheads, and we face a much more assertive, nuclear-armed China. North Korea remains hellbent on honing its nuclear capabilities at the expense of the wellbeing of its own people, while Iran has repeatedly violated its international nuclear obligations and has enriched uranium far beyond what it needs for civilian purposes.
Significantly, our competitors are investing in novel nuclear technologies, including new warfighting nuclear systems, to integrate into their military strategies and doctrines. If we measure the need for an effective nuclear deterrent by the number of nuclear-armed states overtly working against the UK’s national interest, it is clear that the need to deter has never been greater. Let us not forget that a credible nuclear capability is about more than merely countering nuclear threats; it is about deterring all of the most extreme threats to our nation. That is why the Government are investing in upgrading our nuclear infrastructure to support the next generation Dreadnought-class submarines and replacement warheads. These will be some of the most advanced nuclear systems ever built, which sends a clear message to any would-be adversary.
Four Dreadnought submarines will replace the Vanguard-class submarines that have maintained our nuclear deterrent since 1992. They will give us an independent, continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent well into the second half of the century, and progress is on track to deliver the first of the Dreadnought submarines into service in the early 2030s. At £31 billion, it is correct to say that the estimated cost of the programme is significant, but we cannot develop this type of world-leading capability on the cheap, and we must also weigh that against the terrible cost of war, which is what the nuclear deterrent deters from happening.
Not only will the programme keep us safe; it is fuelling economic growth around the country. The submarines are being built by BAE Systems in Barrow-in-Furness. They will be maintained by Babcock in Devonport and on the Clyde. Their nuclear reactors are designed and built by Rolls-Royce in Derby. Our nuclear warheads are designed, manufactured and maintained by the Atomic Weapons Establishment in Berkshire. Hundreds of companies form the network of supply chains, and the stationing of our submarines at His Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde will ensure that it remains one of the largest employment sites in Scotland, bringing significant benefits to the local economy. Directly and indirectly, the nuclear deterrent is responsible for thousands of jobs in Scotland.
In preparation for the delivery of Dreadnought, we are carrying out a £1.4 billion upgrade of our nuclear facilities at HMNB Clyde. We are committed to replacing our current nuclear warheads and are working with the US to refresh the Trident II D5 missile. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene, he is more than welcome to do so.
Neale Hanvey
I thank the Minister for unexpectedly allowing an intervention. He says that he is working with the US, but the reality is that the US controls the nuclear deterrent that the UK provides.
James Cartlidge
That is wholly erroneous. Yes, we have a very, very close working relationship with the United States. We recently celebrated the 60th anniversary of the Polaris agreement. With the United States we secured the freedom of Europe in the second world war, and with the United States we are continuing to secure the freedom of our United Kingdom by deterring the most significant threat that we could face.
I emphasise that while we continue to invest in our nuclear deterrent, the Government remain fully committed to the long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons. As a country, we have a strong record on disarmament, having unilaterally reduced our nuclear forces significantly from their cold war peak. We now have the smallest nuclear warhead stockpile of the five nuclear weapons states recognised under the non-proliferation treaty, and we are the only state to have reduced its deterrent capability to a single nuclear weapons system. However, other states have not followed our example, and as we survey the dangers facing our world today, our assessment is that further unilateral disarmament would only undermine our security and that of our allies. Nevertheless, we will continue to see opportunities to advance multilateral disarmament under the framework of the non-proliferation treaty.
Our nuclear deterrent deters aggression and coercion and helps to preserve peace.
Neale Hanvey
I thank the Minister for giving way a final time. I will not take too much time, but I did express a number of specific concerns that relate to the people of Scotland and their concerns about hosting these weapons on their shores. The Minister has made the business case, albeit perhaps not the moral case, for hosting WMDs, but he has not responded to any of my concerns about hosting these weapons in Scotland. Will he commit to respond in writing and in detail to the points I have put to him today?
James Cartlidge
I did respond in detail to the written questions the hon. Gentleman tabled last May about those incidents, and the Secretary of State wrote to him about the allegations that were printed. We rejected them.
The hon. Gentleman asks about the moral case, and I have made the moral case: it is about peace, it is about deterrence. If he does not understand that, let me put on the record the fact that it is the policy of his party to withdraw from NATO, not just to disarm. Let us ask ourselves what greater folly there could be in the current international situation than for the United Kingdom to withdraw from NATO. How would the Kremlin react? What would the people of Ukraine think—the people we have done so much to help remain free?
Peace is not cheap. That is why we support our deterrent, whose existence has kept us and our allies safe for decades, and we remain fully committed to investing in it. Of course, we absolutely hope never to have to use our arsenal, but in our more dangerous world, I strongly agree with Lord Pym when he told this House, 44 years ago almost to the day, that irrespective of the nature of the threat we face, it is better to have “effective options” than accept defeat. Or, as I would put it sincerely, the best way to avoid a war is to deter it from happening in the first place.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between James Cartlidge and Neale Hanvey(1 year ago)
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Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)
The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)
The Ministry of Defence co-ordinates a range of interdependent programmes to support, maintain and renew the nuclear deterrent. The expected cost of the combined defence nuclear enterprise will be set out at supplementary estimates in February.
Neale Hanvey
The estimated costs of Trident’s renewal stand at the moment at £31 billion, with a further £10 billion earmarked for contingency. We know that containment of nuclear material is a problem for the Ministry of Defence, and we also know from recent reports that a Vanguard-class submarine nearly had a collision over the weekend. Our party put in a freedom of information request asking about transportation of nuclear material through Scotland, and that was rebuffed. The UK Government may be content to play second fiddle to the US on weapons of mass destruction, but can the Secretary of State explain the lack of transparency on WMD movement in Scotland, and justify Scotland’s being kept in the dark? Is it not time to abandon this costly and dangerous bomb and get it out of Scotland for good?
Mr Speaker
Order. Let us help each other to get through the list, please.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between James Cartlidge and Neale Hanvey(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)
The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)
The Dreadnought submarine programme remains within overall budget and on track for the first of class, HMS Dreadnought, to enter service in the early 2030s. As the programme is in its preliminary phases, it is too early to provide cost estimates for the replacement warhead programme.
Neale Hanvey
The financial cost of weapons of mass destruction is one thing; the potential human cost from radiation leaks is quite another. On 7 November last year, I raised concerns from a whistleblower about a serious radiation breach at Coulport on Loch Long. The Secretary of State promised that he would provide a detailed written response. Despite my persistence, six months later I have still not had a reply, other than a leak to the media saying:
“The alleged radiation incident referred to…did not”
take place. Will the Secretary of State confirm today from the Dispatch Box whether HMNB Clyde staff were moved from building 201 in Coulport to building 41 elsewhere due to a serious radiation breach?
James Cartlidge
Obviously, I will have to look into the matter and will write to the hon. Gentleman further. I would make one point. He talked about the other costs. If I may, while the SNP has a merely quirky position of unilateral nuclear disarmament but supposedly remaining in NATO, the position of the Alba party is both nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from NATO. What would be the cost of that policy? In the light of the current situation where Russia has invaded Ukraine, what would happen if we were to announce our withdrawal from NATO?
Energy (oil and gas) profits levy
Debate between James Cartlidge and Neale Hanvey(2 years ago)
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James Cartlidge
My right hon. Friend puts it perfectly. These are significant changes for the industries concerned and one should not go about it in a wanton fashion. We have to try to carry the industry with us, which is why, for example, we have a very generous investment allowance in the North sea levy. As I said, I think the wider public support that but he is right that we have to go about it pragmatically to ensure that we balance the interests of investment with raising the revenue.
Let us not forget that that revenue is going to fund support for energy bills at an extraordinary level through the energy price guarantee, which the OBR now estimates will cut £900 from the typical energy bill this winter. Next year, with the new energy price guarantee, a further £500 will be cut. We are taking these difficult measures to be compassionate and help those at the bottom the most: earlier this year, the amount of energy support for the most vulnerable was £650; next year, it will be £900. We are taking serious steps to support the most vulnerable.
Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)
It is extraordinary to hear that response to the question about levying a windfall tax and those comments about the pragmatic approach that the Government took when the oil industry companies themselves were saying, “We’re happy to pay more tax. Take more money from us. We’re making so much money.” So the Government were incredibly slow to act.