Proxy Voting

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg)]

I beg to move,

(1) That:

(a) the Resolution of 28 January 2019 (Proxy Voting (Implementation)), as amended on 16 January and 20 July 2020,

(b) the Resolution of 4 June 2020 (Proxy Voting (Extension)), as amended on 10 June 2020, be rescinded.

(2) That the following Standing Order be made:

VOTING BY PROXY

(1) A Member eligible under paragraph (2) may arrange for their vote to be cast by one other Member acting as a proxy (a proxy vote) under a scheme drawn up by the Speaker in accordance with this order and published by him.

(2) A Member is eligible for a proxy vote by reason of absence from the precincts of the House for childbirth or care of an infant or newly adopted child, subject to the conditions set out in the scheme published under paragraph (1) of this order.

(3) A proxy vote may be cast:

(a) in any division, including a deferred division, in the House, in Committee of the whole House, or in any legislative grand committee, save as provided in paragraph (4) below; and

(b) in a ballot cast in an election under Standing Order No. 1B (Election of Speaker by secret ballot), Standing Order No. 2A (Election of the Deputy Speakers), Standing Order No. 122B (Election of select committee chairs) and Standing Order No. 122D (Election of Chair of the Backbench Business Committee).

(4) No proxy vote shall be reckoned in the numbers participating in a division for the purposes of (a) Standing Order No. 41(1) (Quorum), and (b) Standing Order No. 37 (Majority for closure or for proposal of question).

(5) (a) A proxy vote may be cast only if the Speaker has certified that the Member for whom the vote is to be cast is eligible under the terms of this order.

(b) The Speaker shall cause that certificate, including the name of the Member nominated as a proxy, to be entered in the Votes and Proceedings no later than the sitting day on which it takes effect.

(6) A vote cast by a proxy shall be clearly indicated as such in the division lists published under the authority of the House.

(7) A Member is also eligible for a proxy vote by reason of absence from the precincts of the House in circumstances where there have been complications relating to childbirth; and the Speaker may make appropriate provision for the exercise of a proxy vote in such circumstances in the scheme drawn up under paragraph (1) above.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to consider motion No. 7, on proxy voting during the pandemic:

That the following amendments be made to the Standing Order (Voting by Proxy) and have effect until 3 November 2020:

(1) In paragraph (2) after “child” insert “, or for medical or public health reasons related to the pandemic”.

(2) After paragraph (5) insert –

(5A) The Speaker may certify that a Member’s eligibility for a proxy vote for medical or public health reasons related to the pandemic should take effect before the certificate is published in the Votes and Proceedings, or that a certificate already granted should be varied, if satisfied there are urgent and unforeseeable circumstances to justify this.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

At the outset, may I put on the record my gratitude to my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) and the Procedure Committee for the Committee’s review of the pilot arrangements for proxy voting and their recommendations, which have formed the basis for the motions before us today? I am pleased that we have been now able to bring forward proposals to implement a permanent scheme for parental proxy voting. This is an important step in ensuring that we do all we can to support new parents in the House, in a measure that more broadly reflects the approaches to maternity and paternity leave seen across the country.

As well as being an important step, it is an historic one for the way that the House operates. Together we take decisions on vital matters of state, sometimes affecting questions of life and death. The results of Divisions in this House change people’s lives across the country. So the legitimacy of the system by which Members vote must be above reproach. Any reform of voting procedure is something that we need to get right in order to ensure that we maintain the full confidence of our constituents. That is why it was important to pilot these measures properly, as well as to review their operation.

I wish to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) who, when Leader of the House, introduced the pilot scheme. The Procedure Committee, both in the last Parliament and in this, has played a key role to get us to this point. The pilot proxy voting arrangements for parental leave have now been in place for nearly 20 months. As the Committee has reported, proxy voting has worked well for Members who are new mothers and fathers, allowing them to continue to serve their constituents while also dealing with their familial obligations.

We are therefore in the happy position of being able to make such a fundamental change to our voting procedures. We are confident that it will work, and work well. I hope that the whole House will support the Procedure Committee’s recommendations to make a permanent change to Standing Orders to reflect the success of this scheme.

Let me now turn to arrangements for proxy voting that have been put in place during the pandemic. Early in June 2020, the Government brought forward a motion to extend the scope of proxy voting to allow Members unable to attend Westminster for medical or public health reasons related to the coronavirus pandemic to vote by proxy.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Leader of the House for bringing forward the continuation of the system. I want to ask him a specific question. I do not want to mention the person’s name, but someone took ill on the Sunday who was intending to come here to vote on the Monday, but was therefore not able to. Is there any way, at very short notice, in a real emergency, that provision could be made, on that timescale, to enable someone to vote?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Yes. The motion before us says:

“a certificate already granted should be varied, if satisfied there are urgent and unforeseeable circumstances”,

so Mr Speaker now has the ability to do this at very short notice. With parental leave, there is normally some element of notice, whereas with the coronavirus, there may not be any notice at all. However, there has to be some discretion for Mr Speaker, because there comes a point in the day at which it is too difficult administratively to get something in place. The hon. Gentleman raises a fair point, and I am glad to say that that has been taken account of.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend said that we have brought in proxy voting to help Members for reasons of public health. The trouble is that this whole system has been corrupted. A huge number of Members of Parliament now have proxy votes. I do not believe that the great majority of them are actually shielding or medically ill—I think it is just for convenience. This shows the creeping danger of what is going on. I would like to get from the Leader of the House, as someone who loves the House of Commons, a personal view of that and a determination that if a Member wants to vote, in virtually all circumstances, they should take the trouble to turn up here.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I hope that my right hon. Friend is wrong in saying that people are abusing the system. We have to have a system that works on trust, and that is one of the changes being made to the parental leave system: previously, evidence had to come from a doctor, but now we are accepting that hon. Members will behave honourably.

The motion states:

“The Speaker may certify that a Member’s eligibility for a proxy vote for medical or public health reasons related to the pandemic should take effect before the certificate is published in the Votes and Proceedings”.

It is for “medical or public health” reasons. That includes being in an area subject to a local lockdown; being unable to send children to school because of needing to self-isolate or because the school has required children to be at home for whatever reason; and issues relating to difficulties with public transport, which were more acute earlier in the crisis than they are now. It is a fairly broad definition because the circumstances are changeable and, to some extent, unknowable. It seems only fair to allow Members, on their own say-so and their own cognisance, to say to Mr Speaker that they feel they are in such a position that they need a proxy.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

May I press my right hon. Friend on that? Why do some Members have a proxy vote one week but are then here the next week, or they have a proxy vote and we see them wandering around the corridors? We all know that this is being abused, and I want the Leader of the House to give a firm commitment that he will not have this creeping corruption of our procedures.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Members with a proxy vote may only appear remotely. They may not appear in the Chamber. Mr Speaker has been absolutely clear on that. I would not expect Members who have a proxy vote to be in the precincts of the Palace, because if they can be here, they ought to be voting in person. Any Member who had behaved in that way would not be behaving within the spirit of the temporary Standing Order.

This system has allowed many Members to have their votes recorded, and in the current circumstances, I think it is right that we make the continuing provision for proxy voting. The broad eligibility criteria provide appropriate flexibility in the circumstances. Any Member who has any concerns related to the coronavirus must feel entitled to apply for a proxy vote, and I hope that this motion will be agreed by the House today. It will allow for the current temporary arrangements to be in place until 3 November 2020, in line with the arrangements for remote participation in the Chamber and other measures that facilitate social distancing.

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

Forgive me for referring to a matter that was dealt with a few moments ago. I knew I had read this and I just wanted to make sure that I was accurately quoting it, just to help my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). In the report of the Procedure Committee on proxy voting, the Clerk of the House noted in his evidence that there had been a small number of issues with colleagues not understanding the rules on whether they should be here if they had a proxy vote. He said that there were a very small number of cases where he had had to intervene, and that number was diminishing as colleagues properly understood the rules. I hope it is helpful to put that on the record.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend. It is indeed helpful and useful to put on the record the evidence given to the Select Committee.

The Government, working with the House authorities, will continue to keep these matters under review following broader public health guidance, as we have since the outset. We are fortunate in the robust measures put in place under the leadership of Mr Speaker, which have allowed this Parliament to conduct its essential business in a covid-secure way. It is worth noting—this is, I think, significant—that because we did not apply the relaxation of the rules that came in over the summer, we are able to continue as we are now because we always remained in line with the tighter rules that allowed us to come back on 2 June. That is why this week’s announcements do not necessitate any sudden reversion. It is, however, worth reminding all Members of their obligation to observe social distancing, especially when queueing for Divisions. That is important and we have an obligation to show we are doing the same as other British subjects.

[Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he feel that in the current situation there is appropriate social distancing when a Division takes place? From what I have seen, there is not.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Doorkeepers and the Whips are doing an excellent job to encourage proper social distancing, but we are a society that believes in individual responsibility. Members of Parliament really must lead by example and show they can be responsible. I confess I find that most Members keep a safe six-and-a-half-foot distance from me, Mr Deputy Speaker, although I am worried about whether that is because of the coronavirus or for other reasons that perhaps I will not go into.

None the less, I am extremely grateful for the continuing work of all those on the estate who contribute to making our proceedings possible in the present difficult and imperfect circumstances. Meeting the challenge posed by the pandemic has certainly provided lessons for all of us in appreciating afresh the value of actually being here together. The effectiveness of our scrutiny and the efficiency of our law making was sadly diminished during the period of the hybrid proceedings. Since then, the rigour of the measures applied across the estate and the ingenuity of the procedural approaches pioneered particularly by Mr Speaker have enabled so much that was once thought impossible: the welcome return of Backbench Business Committee debates, sitting Fridays, and soon, from a motion coming immediately after this one, Westminster Hall debates. All those things help us to represent our constituents better.

[Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)]

May I thank my right hon. Friend for his endeavours as Leader of the House to ensure the voice of this House can be heard during this crisis, but reiterate that not a single constituent is saying that we are suffering from an excess of legislative scrutiny, given some of the measures that are being brought forward at this time?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I doubt that in the whole history of Parliament any constituent has ever complained about an excess of legislative scrutiny. I think a surfeit of lampreys is more dangerous than an excess of legislative scrutiny.

[Mr Harper]

I am only intervening on my right hon. Friend because he mentioned the subsequent motion on Westminster Hall. I was not going to bring it into scope myself. I do not know whether this is a matter for him or for the Chair on a future occasion, but I note that that motion states:

“the Chair in Westminster Hall may limit the number of Members”.

My question—it may not be for today—is whether we will have call lists and, effectively, the same processes for Westminster Hall that we have for the Chamber to enable that limitation to take place, and whether that could be furnished to Members in due course.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

By your leave, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will try to answer that question. Mr Speaker or the Chairman of Ways and Means will set out the proposals, but, yes, there will have to be limits and, yes, therefore call lists, except that many Westminster Hall debates do not have so many people involved that we would face getting up to the limit.

[Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)]

I wanted to put on the record that at the meeting of the Procedure Committee earlier we agreed to a short sharp inquiry into the use of call lists and time limits. We encourage all hon. and right hon. Members to contribute to that inquiry.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am very grateful for that and I know that Members will be glad that such an inquiry is taking place.

Ultimately, we have a system that is working and balances the need to ensure the safety of Members and staff, while providing a robust voting system to allow the delivery of the legislative programme and the key decisions affecting our constituents. I therefore commend the motions to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

It is always a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). In the event that we went back to the level of lockdown that we had in April, of course the Government would reconsider the situation.

I note the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) about more support for families. That is very important. An interim chief executive of IPSA has just been appointed and I will ensure that it is taken up with him.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) goes back to the 18th century, which shows what a modernist he is, but it is of course true that overcoats are not meant to be worn so that people do not send somebody in their place to vote.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), the distinguished Chairman of the Procedure Committee, made a number of points. It is really important that Members know that they do not have to give the proxy to Whips. That is fundamental; they can give it to anyone they like. And remote voting is not that robust because of the conditions mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough, in that wi-fi goes down.

I am so grateful for the speech by the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard). I am not sure if he is going to like this—it is part-flattery and it is part-disagreeing with him—but, when he is here, his points are made 10 times more effectively than when he is appearing up on the screen. I do not know whether, from my point of view, that is a good or a bad thing, because his points come across extremely well, but we are key workers as Members of Parliament, and therefore I think we need to be here to hold people like me to account, which is a thoroughly good thing,

I finish by thanking the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) for her support on these motions.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

(1) That:

(a) the Resolution of 28 January 2019 (Proxy Voting (Implementation)), as amended on 16 January and 20 July 2020,

(b) the Resolution of 4 June 2020 (Proxy Voting (Extension)), as amended on 10 June 2020, be rescinded.

(2) That the following Standing Order be made:

VOTING BY PROXY

(1) A Member eligible under paragraph (2) may arrange for their vote to be cast by one other Member acting as a proxy (a proxy vote) under a scheme drawn up by the Speaker in accordance with this order and published by him.

(2) A Member is eligible for a proxy vote by reason of absence from the precincts of the House for childbirth or care of an infant or newly adopted child, subject to the conditions set out in the scheme published under paragraph (1) of this order.

(3) A proxy vote may be cast:

(a) in any division, including a deferred division, in the House, in Committee of the whole House, or in any legislative grand committee, save as provided in paragraph (4) below; and

(b) in a ballot cast in an election under Standing Order No. 1B (Election of Speaker by secret ballot), Standing Order No. 2A (Election of the Deputy Speakers), Standing Order No. 122B (Election of select committee chairs) and Standing Order No. 122D (Election of Chair of the Backbench Business Committee).

(4) No proxy vote shall be reckoned in the numbers participating in a division for the purposes of (a) Standing Order No. 41(1) (Quorum), and (b) Standing Order No. 37 (Majority for closure or for proposal of question).

(5) (a) A proxy vote may be cast only if the Speaker has certified that the Member for whom the vote is to be cast is eligible under the terms of this order.

(b) The Speaker shall cause that certificate, including the name of the Member nominated as a proxy, to be entered in the Votes and Proceedings no later than the sitting day on which it takes effect.

(6) A vote cast by a proxy shall be clearly indicated as such in the division lists published under the authority of the House.

(7) A Member is also eligible for a proxy vote by reason of absence from the precincts of the House in circumstances where there have been complications relating to childbirth; and the Speaker may make appropriate provision for the exercise of a proxy vote in such circumstances in the scheme drawn up under paragraph (1) above.

Proxy Voting During the Pandemic

Ordered,

That the following amendments be made to the Standing Order (Voting by Proxy) and have effect until 3 November 2020:

(1) In paragraph (2) after “child” insert “, or for medical or public health reasons related to the pandemic”.

(2) After paragraph (5) insert –

(5A) The Speaker may certify that a Member’s eligibility for a proxy vote for medical or public health reasons related to the pandemic should take effect before the certificate is published in the Votes and Proceedings, or that a certificate already granted should be varied, if satisfied there are urgent and unforeseeable circumstances to justify this.—(Mr Rees-Mogg.)

Parliamentary Works Estimates Commission

Ordered,

That Lilian Greenwood and Dame Eleanor Laing be confirmed as members of the Parliamentary Works Estimates Commission under Schedule 3 to the Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Act 2019.—(Mr Rees-Mogg.)