Scotland Bill

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Monday 15th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Allen]

That was before even my time. I will allow the hon. Gentleman to educate me about that in the Tea Room.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

On a point of order, Sir David. May we have a ruling that there is no such thing as the British Parliament; there is the Parliament of the United Kingdom?

[The Temporary Chair (Sir David Amess)]

Order. I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) said, and it was a point of argument, not a point of order.

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[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, and to speak to amendment 89, tabled in my name and the names of my hon. Friends.

If amendment 89 is passed, it will deliver full fiscal autonomy for Scotland. That means that Scotland will collect all her own taxes, fund all her own spending—all the spending that is the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament—and pay a subvention for shared spending on Scotland’s behalf, primarily on defence and foreign affairs, by the UK Government. This is not simply about responsibility for taxation; it is about responsibility for all spending outwith limited and agreed areas.

On the question of why we need this, the answer is clear. We need and deserve important decisions to be taken as close to the people as possible and, more importantly, we need those decisions to be taken in line with the aspirations and democratic choices of the Scottish people.

The next question is what we would do with the powers. The answer depends very much on the view of the Scottish Government of the day, the prevailing economic conditions, and the most up-to-date economic forecasts. I will describe what an SNP Government might do with the powers of full fiscal autonomy to grow the economy, improve conditions for business investment and job creation, and start to make society fairer—all of which are vital for Scotland’s economy and future.

We believe in the transfer of more powers to Scotland not as an end in itself but because through it the Scottish Government can exercise those powers to the benefit of Scotland’s economy and society. For example, we would not merely have control over income tax rates and bands for earned income but have responsibility for all tax on income, including definition, the basic rate starting threshold, and tax rates on dividend and investment income. That would allow for every possible policy choice, delivering to future Scottish Governments the flexibility to craft an income tax system. Likewise, the devolution of corporation tax would allow for a comprehensive tax regime, including an intelligent use of allowances to assist business in investing for the future.

[Ian Paisley]

Does the hon. Gentleman desire air passenger duty to be included in the remit of the amendment? Does he accept that to be fair to all the component parts of the United Kingdom, any change to APD should affect Northern Ireland as well as the north of England?

[Stewart Hosie]

Air passenger duty is to be devolved to Scotland, as it has been to Northern Ireland, albeit in a limited way. I very much welcome that. It is for each of the component parts that have responsibility for a tax to use it wisely in the interests of the people. I think we would agree that serious, proper and justifiable tax competition to grow our economy and attract investment would be a good thing, and I hope the hon. Gentleman agrees that it is always odd to hear Government Members purport to support tax competition except, of course, when it begins to affect them.

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[Mr Jones]

I agree, and we need to get away from the cynical approach of this Government who talk about devolution and about devolving decision making but with no funds attached to that.

[Ian Paisley]

Getting back to the Scotland Bill, I agree with the thrust of what the hon. Gentleman is saying in that we should know what this costs. We have a proposal tonight to devolve all these fiscal powers, but we do not know what the cost will be for the ordinary Scot or indeed for the rest of us. When corporation tax powers were devolved to Northern Ireland, we were shown the bill of fare, and it is going to cost us £250 million a year to do that. What is it going to cost the ordinary Scot if there is devolution of all these fiscal powers?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point, which illustrates why the later amendment seeking to quantify the cost is needed. If we are going to take these decisions in the long-term interests of the Scottish economy and its people, they need to know that. I am a former trade union official and I never went into negotiations without knowing what the costs of the outcome would be. The problem with the Scottish nationalists’ proposals is that they do not know what the ultimate costs will be.

Amendment 58 in the name of the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) proposes that the phrase that the Scottish Parliament is recognised as

“a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitution”

replace the current wording in clause 1, which states:

“A Scottish Parliament is recognised as a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements.”

We have a problem with that, as I tried to tease out in my interventions on the hon. Gentleman: what is the definition of the United Kingdom’s constitution, because we do not have anything called that? If that amendment passes, there would be a feast day for lawyers in trying to identify what the constitution is. If we had a written constitution, the Scottish Parliament could be a permanent part of it, but we do not have a written constitution and I am at a loss to know how this would be interpreted as things currently stand. The amendment has been tabled so it is in order, but I am not sure of its practicality and uses, and I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman understands how this would be interpreted and whether it will be left to a court to decide how the UK constitution is to be defined.

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[Pete Wishart]

My hon. Friend is, again, spot on. We always seem to get here in Scotland Bills: there is a debate in Scotland where we think we have managed to reach some sort of agreement about a way forward, but when it comes to this House all of a sudden we get caught up in “English votes for English laws” and with English devolution. Those are important things that have to be debated, but somehow they find their way into a debate we are having in Scotland about what we think we are entitled to and what the Scottish people have decided they want by sending so many of my hon. Friends here.

[Ian Paisley]

I have some sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman is saying but surely he accepts that this is a debate for all of the peoples of all of the United Kingdom and that all these issues counterbalance each other? That is why these other issues get brought into the debate. Surely the hon. Gentleman recognises that—have some generosity on that point.

[Pete Wishart]

I am not disagreeing with the hon. Gentleman; he probably heard me say that these issues are important and have to be looked at and considered, because they are the things that make all the rest of it work. What we are debating tonight is a Scotland Bill that is the end part of a proposal by the former Prime Minister, the previous leader of the Labour party, the previous leader of the Liberal Democrats and the leader of the Conservatives—it was promised in the vow.

[Ian Paisley]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I am not going to give way again, because I know a lot of people want to get in and I want to make some progress. These issues are all important, but tonight is Scotland Bill night and these are the sorts of things we are considering.

Unfortunately, the hon. Member for Nottingham North is not in his place—[Interruption.] He is here—well, perhaps he wants to take his place. We are always very grateful for the concise way in which he puts his wide range of views. He is always interesting to listen to and is always innovative and creative. Again, we give him a lot of congratulation on the way he so rapidly went through his constitutional tour de force. The hon. Gentleman talked about his new clause 8, and I was particularly attracted when he invited the Scottish Parliament to take a proportional share of Members of the House of Lords as part of his long-term constitutional reform. With a deal of candour may I say to him that the House of Lords is perhaps the most absurd, ridiculous legislature in the world? It is bloated beyond redemption and the last thing that place needs is more Members. What it needs is total abolition, and that cannot come soon enough.

The hon. Member for Gainsborough has put forward his helpful new clause 3. As the hon. Member for Christchurch rightly identified, it has got quite a bit of attention, and not only today—we have done nothing other than debate this for the past few weeks and months. If we swapped the three words “full fiscal autonomy” with the word “independence”, we would see that we have been having this debate for the past four, eight, 15 or 20 years. The same themes seem to be revisited when we talk about full fiscal autonomy or independence, and it is the same adversaries: the Scottish National party, and the old amigos of Labour and Conservatives getting together to tell us once again how we are too poor, too wee, too unimaginative, not just to have independence, but to run ourselves fiscally within the United Kingdom. What next? Where do we go to? Can we not run local authorities properly without being too wee, too poor or too unimaginative? [Interruption.] I see that the hon. Member for Edinburgh South does not want to intervene but I give way to the hon. Member for Gainsborough.

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[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

We are talking here about the government of Scotland, so I hope it is not contentious to say that what should be uppermost in all our minds are the views of the people who live there. I am very much in favour of evidence-based policy, by which I mean that we should try to make things right according to the facts of the situation. We are in a fortunate position in this debate because we do not have to guess what the people of Scotland think, as they have been consulted quite extensively over the past year.

We are having this debate today because of the referendum that took place on 18 September, when the people of Scotland voted on whether they wanted to be an independent country. They decided by 55% to 45% that they did not want to be an independent country and leave the United Kingdom, and I respect that result and that opinion. But no one can deny that one thing that swung that vote in favour of the no campaign was the intervention by the leaders of all three Unionist parties who promised substantial new powers for Scotland should it decide to stay within the United Kingdom. The vow that was published and signed in The Daily Record and promoted the length and breadth of the country was definitely a major factor on which the outcome of that result depended.

The response was to set up the Smith commission, and Lord Smith has now reported and given his view. We took part in that commission and we signed up to it, but we made it very clear that the Smith commission is a floor, not a ceiling, on the ambition of Scotland for additional powers. We made that clear from the word go. We argued for that in the run-up to the election. There was a raging debate during the election campaign about whether the Smith commission was an adequate response to the wishes expressed by the people of Scotland in the referendum. We said that it was not, but that it was a start and that we needed to go further to satisfy the aspirations and hopes that were given to us by the Prime Minister, by Gordon Brown and by others who said that we would get substantial new powers. They said that we would have home rule and that it would be as near to federalism as possible. That is what the people of Scotland were promised, and the Smith commission does not add up to that. We took that argument and put it before the Scottish people in a general election, and we asked them to say whether they agreed with our analysis that we should go beyond the current Smith commission. What happened? They voted for us. They voted for us not just by a little bit but by a lot. More than 50% of the people who turned out at that election voted for members of the Scottish National party—I ask Members to try to get the name of our party right.

The question now is: does the Bill before us respond to what happened at the general election. I must say—the Secretary of State can correct me if I am wrong—that the Bill looks as though it was drafted before the election; its clauses are very similar to those that were published in January. The speed with which the Bill was published makes me think that there has been very little reflection over what happened at the election, and over the views of the Scottish people. Very little has been included in the Bill in response to those things.

I ask the Secretary of State and the Government to consider making changes to the Bill so that it reflects the views of the people of Scotland, delivers the promises of the Smith commission and, where possible, goes beyond the commission to do things on which Smith is silent—I am talking about the administrative changes that the third sector and specialist organisations in Scotland are asking for and that could easily be granted—and responds to our argument for granting substantial new powers that would be tantamount to the vow that was made.

One thing the Secretary of State could do quite easily is say, “We will accept the amendments about the permanence of the Scottish Parliament, albeit within our flawed and unwritten constitution.” The Government could make a statement that “This Chamber agrees that the Scottish Parliament will never ever be taken away without a referendum of the people who live in Scotland.” It would cost the Government nothing to accede to that amendment, so why do they not do it? They would be demonstrating some respect towards the people who have sent us to this Chamber to argue these points.

Let me turn now to the issue of full financial autonomy. Last week, I was in the strange position of finding myself misquoted by the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State, shadow Ministers and—just to complete the pack—the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats in the Scottish Parliament. I did not know whether to feel victimised or honoured. I am delighted, both in recent press articles and in this Chamber today, to be able to put the record straight. I am absolutely committed to the idea that the Scottish Government should be responsible for raising the revenues that they spend. To be honest, that should be a non-contentious point. In any structure in the world where there is a federal relationship and a federal-type Government, or even a devolved Assembly, those arrangements are commonplace. I have yet to hear the argument against that view.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Indeed, he is my hon. Friend, as he is both a canny Ulster man and a County Antrim man. Of course he will know in his heart—the heart of a County Antrim man—that before a person can say that they want to spend money on something, they should know the price. Does he agree that, before we vote on his party’s amendments tonight, it is important that we know the price, especially for corporation tax? What will it mean for the ordinary Scot?

[Tommy Sheppard]

I am a Derry man as it happens. If the hon. Gentleman wants to make a point of such substance, perhaps he should indicate to the Chair and take part in the debate. What we are talking about is a matter of political principle. It is about the direction in which we want to go forward. It is entirely possible, with good will, to put in place proper fiscal arrangements.

I wish to turn to the amendment of the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). I have not been in this job long—

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Let me be clear that we will support neither amendment, because they are not in the interests of the Scottish people. New clause 3 does what it says on the tin; it would deliver the key SNP manifesto promise of full fiscal autonomy at the commencement of this Bill. The Labour party and others have always said that the worst-case scenario for Scotland’s future would be an SNP group here in Westminster that pushes that promise of full fiscal autonomy and a Conservative majority Government who deliver it for them.

[Ian Paisley]

At the end of this debate, has the shadow Secretary of State any inkling whatsoever of when the Barnett formula calculations for Scotland would cease and what impact that would have on the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Ian Murray]

The Barnett formula would cease as soon as the powers for full fiscal autonomy were transferred. That is something everyone should be aware of. The hon. Gentleman has consistently challenged SNP Members to say what the cost of full fiscal autonomy would be for the ordinary Scottish person in the street, and we are yet to have an answer. We have been told, “Let’s get the principle of full fiscal autonomy together and then work out the consequences later.”