Building Safety Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Mr Dowd. The new clause is technical and the Opposition do not wish to oppose it.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. May I ask the Minister, where would the completed certificate be displayed within the building so that residents might see it?

[Eddie Hughes]

In line with other elements of the Bill, the certificate would be displayed in a prominent location.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 21 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New clause 3

Duty on the Secretary of State to report on designations under Part XVI of the Housing Act 1985

“(1) Within the period of six months beginning with the day on which this section comes into force, the Secretary of State must—

(a) consider the financial impact on leaseholders in England and Wales of building safety advice given by his department since 14 June 2017; and

(b) in conjunction with the Treasury and the Prudential Regulation Authority, consider the impact of building safety advice given by his department since 14 June 2017 on the supply of mortgage finance for leasehold flats in England and Wales; and

(c) publish a report setting out his determination, in light of the factors identified in paragraphs (a) and (b), as to whether designations under section 528 or section 559 of the Housing Act 1985 would improve conditions for leaseholders, or would improve the supply of mortgage finance for leasehold flats in England and Wales.

(2) If the Secretary of State’s report under subsection (1) concludes that designations under section 528 or section 559 of the Housing Act 1985 would improve financial conditions for leaseholders in England and Wales, or would improve the supply of mortgage finance for leasehold flats in England and Wales, then at the same time as publishing his report he must—

(a) make arrangements to provide all necessary funding;

(b) make the appropriate designations under section 528 of the Housing Act 1985; and

(c) advise local housing authorities to make appropriate designations under section 559 of the Housing Act 1985.

(3) Before making any regulations bringing into force any section in Part 4 of this Act, the Secretary of State must make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved the report prepared under subsection (1), to be moved in the House of Commons by a minister of the Crown; and

(b) a motion to the effect that the House of Lords to take note of the report prepared under subsection (1), to be moved in the House of Lords by a minister of the Crown.

(4) The motions required under subsections (3)(a) and (3)(b) must be moved in the relevant House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of five calendar days beginning with the end of the day on which the report under subsection (1) is published.

(5) If the motion tabled in the House of Commons is rejected or amended, the Secretary of State must, within 30 calendar days, publish a further report under subsection (1) and make arrangements for further approval equivalent to those under subsection (2).

(6) The Secretary of State shall make a further report under subsection (1) at least every 90 calendar days beginning with the day of any rejection or amendment by the House of Commons under subsection (5) until otherwise indicated by a resolution of the House of Commons.

(7) In this section—

‘leaseholder’ means the registered legal owner of a long lease; and

‘long lease’ has the same meaning as in section 76 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002.

(8) This section comes into force on the day this Act is passed.—(Daisy Cooper.)

This new clause places a time-limited duty on the Secretary of State to consider making designations under Part XVI of the Housing Act 1985 to provide funding for cladding and fire safety remediation and for Parliament to approve the plans for doing so.

Brought up, and read the First time.

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[Ruth Cadbury]

My hon. Friend gives yet another illustration of the stress and mental health impact of this crisis. On the subject of people almost frightened to go to sleep at night, people with disabilities and their carers face even greater anxiety and worry over fire safety risks and whether they would be able to get out of their home to safety. Many are struggling to get adequate personal emergency evacuation plans sorted with their building managers.

Paragraph (b) relates to those facing staggeringly high bills. Every day, we see more and more reports of the skyrocketing costs facing leaseholders. One of my constituents, who is a shared owner in Brentford, is facing a bill of £15,000, and says:

“I fear it will be significantly higher...I don’t have this money and it will bankrupt me. I fear homelessness...I’m going to lose the home I worked so hard for.”

Leaseholders across the country are facing staggering and life-changing bills to fix cladding and fire safety defects, and more. Service charges are skyrocketing and, for many, insurance premiums are also shooting through the roof. Two of my constituents are facing an extra £2,000 on their annual insurance bill. Many people face bankruptcy. That is bad enough in itself, because of course it means a lifelong impact, whatever one’s financial future. However, for accountants, lawyers and others, their professional status is permanently destroyed if they are declared bankrupt.

Overall, there is the fear of homelessness for people who got on the housing ladder—they did the right thing, as we often say—but are now falling to the bottom of the snakes and ladders board.

[Ian Byrne]

On the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee, we had three sessions of evidence from many people across the country who have gone through covid, have lived since 2017 in unsafe buildings, as my hon. Friend has outlined, and are now in danger of bankruptcy and potentially losing their jobs through professional indemnity being withdrawn. It was heartbreaking to listen to the three sessions and see how life changing this was going to be and the consequences they will have in years to come, affecting their lives, their children’s lives and future generations of the family’s lives. The impact this is having on people’s mental health should not be understated. As I have said, it could not have come at a worse time, with covid, being locked in a house or a flat that was potentially dangerous during lockdown, or fearing for their own lives in a flat they believed was unsafe. They had the pressures of covid and of living in an unsafe building, so for me this new clause is hugely important, after having listened to the evidence sessions with my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South—

[The Chair]

Order. To clarify, if people are going to intervene, can they make it short and sharp? If they want to make an intervention, that is the way to do it. If they want to speak on the substantive issue, they can do, but this is an intervention, rather than a more substantive contribution.

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[Ian Byrne]

Point taken, Mr Dowd.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Building Safety Bill (Sixteenth sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)]

It is a good to see you in the Chair again, Mrs Miller, on our final day of deliberations. I agree with the sentiments behind new clause 14, and what the hon. Member for Weaver Vale said about ensuring that, going forward, we do not face such issues. He mentioned the example of Victoria in Australia, which we have heard about a lot today. We have to be mindful that in the state of Victoria the number of properties that would fit within the category that we are talking about is 2,000, while in England it is 100,000. Although I see what he is saying, we cannot use the Victoria example as a direct crossover.

We also have to look at the structures in which the current remediation programme sits, because ultimately the new clause will effectively centralise the programme through the establishment of a building works agency and the prevention method. I agree with the sentiment: in the longer term, we will need to have a prevention mindset, as was touched on in the deliberations on previous clauses in this important Bill. However, we need to be mindful of the process in which remediation already sits. Clearly, enforcement is being done by local authorities at present.

Members from across the Committee have been very insistent, and we have had a lot of cross-party support—particularly from myself and the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby—when we have said that local authorities need to have the funding to follow through. I know what the hon. Member for Weaver Vale is trying to do with the new clause, which is effectively to say that, if we centralise it with a building works agency that not only deals with remediation but goes further to prevent the problem before it happens, we streamline the process. I can see the logic, but my concern is that we might end up, as an unintended consequence—we have talked a lot about unintended consequences in our deliberations—detract from the work that is already being done.

The new clause could come in within six months of the day on which the Bill is passed, but I am conscious that work is already happening to remediate ACM cladding in particular, which is obviously at the heart of this. My understanding from research is that 95% of the cladding either has already been remediated or is in the process of being remediated. As I said, from a philosophical point of view I am relatively comfortable, but we also have to be mindful of this measure being able to be utilised operationally. My concern is that we have a scheme in place at the moment that is not perfect and needs scrutiny but is working in its aim around remediation.

A big concern that the new clause attempts to address is the lag within that. Perhaps that is something that we need to be mindful of. It could be argued that centralisation, which is what the new clause seeks, could streamline the process, but we also have to be mindful of the reality that there will always be a delay between application and a decision on works and funding coming through. That is a practical reality. I do not know whether a new building works agency would completely eliminate that. That would concern me as well. We have got a process in place already, but does it really achieve the aims?

The Building Safety Regulator has been established. When we build new regulatory landscapes, we do not want to make them inaccessible and convoluted by bringing so many different players to the table.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, Mrs Miller, to serve under your chairship. I thank the hon. Gentleman for letting me intervene. He talks about this being “convoluted”, but we talked last week about a diagram to help the leaseholder understand where to go for help. Would not a single agency or body with oversight of funds, grants and levies, that controls the various streams of money and approves the schemes once completed, make it easier for the leaseholder to tap into what is there and have an innate understanding of what they can actually do? At the moment, as he rightly says, there are many agencies, and the aim of the new clause is to bring them all under one body.

[Shaun Bailey]

The hon. Member makes an interesting point. On the face of it, we could say that the new clause streamlines the approach, but I still have a concern. For example, why could the agency not sit within the BSR or within the new regulator that we have just established? Why do we need to establish another one? I get his broader point—

Building Safety Bill (Thirteenth sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Thursday 21st October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Mike Amesbury]

I thank the Minister, and my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South for her contribution.

In principle, the clause seems to be a step forward, but in reality, it will hardwire into the Bill the injustice that thousands—indeed, millions—of people are familiar with: they are trapped in their properties, and the Bill will ensure that historical remediation falls on the shoulders of leaseholders. The Ministers and the Department have been in a difficult position because it looks as though the Treasury’s door has been closed to any further financial progress.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

Let me read out something to put in context what my hon. Friend says about hardwiring and what the clause does. Darren Matthews says:

“I am ruined. Shared owner (50% for £63,000) and in May was billed £101,500 for remedial works. Block 13.5m tall so doesn’t qualify for BSF but possibly new loan scheme that’ll take 161 years to repay. Madness!”

That is a perfect example of what we are talking about. The clause hardwires unfairness into the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South has just mentioned, many leaseholders will be in the same position as Mr Matthews. How can that be fair?

[Mike Amesbury]

I thank my hon. Friend for his powerful and insightful intervention. He mentions the case study of somebody who is trapped in this nightmare, which the Ministers and the Department are very familiar with. I will give the Minister another example from social media; it is 47 minutes old. Lucy Brown is a leaseholder trapped in this nightmare that we are, hopefully, collectively trying to resolve. She wrote:

“15 months in the BSF”—

that is, the building safety fund—

“application process. Our managing agent/FH”—

that is, the freeholder—

“won’t agree to the BSF terms (likely those requiring the FH guarantee the works be done to an acceptable standard). The joys of the leasehold system—you own nothing, you control nothing + you pay everything.”

How will the clause solve the problem when that particular landlord—the freeholder in this case—has already decided that they have exhausted the process? The levy is thousands and thousands of pounds, and people are going bankrupt in the current climate. How will this move things forward?

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[Christopher Pincher]

To aid Committee members in making interventions, I will try to sit down slowly, so that I am standing for as long as possible. In conjunction with clause 126, which is to come shortly, clause 125 makes changes to the operation of the Defective Premises Act 1972. That Act creates a right to bring a claim for compensation where a dwelling is not “fit for habituation” on completion of that dwelling. The Act currently applies only in relation to the provision of a dwelling, mainly when a property was built defectively in the first place. It does not apply to work done to a dwelling beyond its initial completion—not even to major or complex refurbishment works, such as the cladding of a block, which is what Grenfell Tower underwent. The clause seeks to remedy that.

The clause expands the Defective Premises Act by inserting proposed new section 2A into it. The new section will create a duty to ensure that any work done to a dwelling does not render that dwelling unfit for habitation. It will cover subsequent works done to the building after construction. The clause applies where a person takes on work in relation to any part of a relevant building in the course of a business. That means that it does not apply, for example, to homeowners doing work on their own properties. As in the case of the 1972 Act, the person to whom the duty is owed—the person who has the right to bring a claim—is the person for whom the work is done and any person who holds or subsequently acquires a legal or equitable interest in a dwelling in the building. That includes the freeholder of a block of flats as well as leaseholders.

The “fit for habitation” test is the same test used in the 1972 Act. Subcontractors also owe the same duty for the work that they take on. The clause applies to any relevant building defined as a building consisting of or containing one or more dwellings. The new provision will apply to work completed after the clause comes into force. Clause 126 will provide for a 15-year limitation period in relation to this clause.

[Ian Byrne]

On the ability of a leaseholder to bring a civil claim against a contractor, there is a real fear about the ability of David to challenge Goliath. In our discussions on the Bill, we have talked a lot about cultural change and historical problems and what is required. I am listening to what the Minister says, but once again my great fear is that unless the provisions can be outlined in terms, how can David challenge Goliath? Will leaseholders get legal aid to challenge contractors? Will there be a level playing field for people who want to bring civil cases against contractors? Historically, as Opposition Members have outlined, many people have been dragged into the realms of the law, and have basically had to devote their life to challenging unfair decisions.

[Christopher Pincher]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. Legal aid is not available in these cases, but there are various remedies people can take, either individually or collectively. It is not necessarily the case that the leaseholder would be bringing the claim. It could be the landlord or freeholder. With clause 125, we want to define a very strict provision. That means that the appellant does not have to demonstrate that fault or negligence has taken place. All they have to demonstrate is that the building is not fit for habitation under the terms of the 1972 Act, and the case law already develops that. Adding new section 2A into the Act strengthens the provision. We consider clause 125 to be an important additional safeguard for homeowners against shoddy work done to their dwellings.

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[Ian Byrne]

I thank the Minister for giving way, and it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. The independence of the scheme is critical and the Minister has not really outlined the make-up of the ombudsman, and how people will be able to have confidence in it. I will keep going back to the culture change point because if the ombudsman is seen as reputable and upstanding, people will have confidence in it. Culture change can then derive from the ombudsman. I welcome the scheme, but I would like a bit more clarity on who will sit on the ombudsman. The explanatory notes say that the scheme could also select a third party to be established to run it, so may we have some clarity on that point, too?

[Eddie Hughes]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I completely agree with the premise of his point, which is that that independence needs to be present in such a way that those making complaints can have confidence in it. The scheme could be set up in a number of ways. For example, it would be possible for it to be done in-house so that the Government have tighter control of it, or it could be done by another party. With the New Homes Quality Board, a shadow version is being constituted at the moment. We will be able to see further details on that, but there is no presumption that the shadow board would become the final board once the Bill is passed into law. We will be able to get some indication of how the scheme will work by looking at the workings of the shadow board, and details are available for that, but as I say it will be for the Secretary of State to determine in what form it continues to ensure that there is the confidence that the hon. Gentleman so rightly says is important.

Building Safety Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Thursday 21st October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Mike Amesbury]

I think it is about ensuring that the voice of tenants, residents and leaseholders is central to the new process—it is about bringing that to life. Throughout the Bill’s journey so far, Members from across the House have spoken eloquently about that, regardless of their political affiliation.

The programme that I refer to, and the issues it raises, brought shame on the country’s housing system and those involved in the neglect shown on ITV. It also highlights how the Government have defunded, diminished and undervalued social housing, and how little progress has been made since 2017 to bring in full social housing reform. The amendment brings us back to the reason the Bill was introduced: the tragedy at Grenfell Tower. Survivors of the fire at Grenfell are very clear that they were let down by the process. As tenants, they had no voice. They, more than anyone, support tenants having a voice and being heard.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. We are back to the point about a change of culture. The amendment would hardwire into the Bill a requirement to hear the voices of tenants. In the evidence sessions, we heard many examples of tenants feeling that their voice was not listened to. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth said, tragedies would have been averted if their voices had been listened to. The amendment hardwires into the Bill a change of culture, and fairness. It would ensure that everyone here strives to move forward. I would really like the Minister to consider it.

[Mike Amesbury]

I thank my hon. Friend and not-far neighbour for that powerful intervention. Many scenarios were highlighted this summer by ITV, following a segment on the failings of a large housing provider, Clarion, which has, over years, failed to listen to what tenants said about collapsed ceilings, damp, mould, and rats. An investigation was opened, but just as the housing associations have ignored tenants, so did the social housing watchdog. In its investigation, it did not speak to a single resident on the estate in question. In its defence, I suppose, it is not in the social housing regulator’s remit to seek out residents’ views on the housing provider. That is absolutely crazy. We need to strengthen the legislation, and the amendment would certainly help with that.

Building Safety Bill (Twelfth sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Eddie Hughes]

Clause 95 places three clear obligations on residents aged 16 years or over and on owners of residential units in high-rise buildings in relation to keeping their homes and buildings safe.

The first of those obligations requires all residents, irrespective of tenure, to not act or behave in a way that creates a significant risk of fire or structural failure in their building. Secondly, the clause requires residents and owners of residential units to refrain from interfering with safety items that form part of the common parts. By interfering, we mean damaging or removing the safety item or hindering its function without a reasonable excuse for doing so. Thirdly, residents will have to provide the accountable person with relevant information if it is reasonably required by the accountable person to fulfil their safety duties. We believe those obligations to be proportionate and reasonable.

Turning to clause 96, residents have an important part to play in keeping their building safe, and we know that the majority of people who live in high-rise buildings take their safety responsibilities seriously. As part of the new regulatory regime, our aim is to make sure that sufficient requirements, incentives and powers are in place to prevent and put right risks that are posed by behaviours that residents might engage in. The aim is for accountable persons to work with residents in the first instance, but with the ability to escalate issues to the county court where required. This will help to ensure the appropriate and effective assessment and management of building safety risks for all residents in high-rise buildings.

A contravention notice issued by the accountable person and served on a resident is a means to notify that resident of a breach of their obligations and give them the information they need to put it right. The notice will be issued only where it appears that a contravention has occurred. Where the breach involves interference with a safety item, a sum to either repair or replace that item—not exceeding a reasonable amount—may be requested from the resident.

We believe that to be a fair and proportionate approach, as the majority of residents will want to keep their home and building safe and will not interfere with safety items provided to help them do so. Getting this right is particularly important: it underpins the system of accountability for the accountable person responsible for mitigating fire and structural safety risks, as it provides a proportionate means to discharge their duties in relation to individual dwellings.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairship, Mrs Miller.

If an accountable person is potentially utilising their position to bully a resident, what recourse does that resident have to challenge the notice, which may end up in eviction? What safeguards are in place for the resident? I find it concerning that this seems to be an awful lot of power. We have talked about imbalances of power on the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee. My worry is that this is a further imbalance of power, so what recourse will residents have to challenge a notice that is served by the accountable person?

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[Eddie Hughes]

Clause 98 places a statutory duty on the Building Safety Regulator to enforce the provisions of part 4. As per the clauses we have already discussed, part 4 is concerned with occupied buildings. Among other things, it defines a building safety risk and it defines and places duties on the accountable person in relation to risks in their building, including duties regarding resident engagement.

Alongside clause 4, part 4 also makes it clear that the Building Safety Regulator will be the responsible regulator for the higher-risk building regime during occupation. The reason for placing the duty to enforce breaches of that regime in the Bill is, I hope, self-explanatory. It cements the position in law of the new Building Safety Regulator.

Clause 99 introduces a power for the Building Safety Regulator to ensure compliance with the new regime where a higher-risk building is occupied, through the use of compliance notices. The new regime imposes a range of new requirements for the management of higher-risk buildings, particularly on the new position of the accountable person. The accountable person has a significant role in ensuring that residents are kept informed with important building safety information and, most importantly, kept safe in their homes.

These compliance notices will provide the Building Safety Regulator with effective tools to enforce the relevant part 4 requirements where contraventions have occurred or are likely to occur, and will be available as urgent action notices with shorter deadlines where people in or around a building are at risk of imminent danger, where immediate action is required.

The use of compliance notices will also afford accountable persons the opportunity for correction before formal prosecution action. Nevertheless, the possibility of a custodial sentence upon conviction for breaching a compliance notice is designed to incentivise the accountable person to comply with their requirements and will further support the Building Safety Regulator to ensure that duties under part 4 of the Bill are being met.

The provision complements clause 37, which makes provision for the use of compliance and stop notices during the design and construction of a building, although there is no provision for stop notices in clause 99. Together, the clauses ensure building control authorities will have consistent enforcement tools available to them during the entire lifecycle of a building.

The compliance and enforcement measures in the Bill are appropriately tough. It is not enough that there is an accountable person for a building; the new regulator must be certain that the accountable person is carrying out their duties and responsibilities as they should, in line with the regime. The design of the new regime and the related requirements in part 4 of the Bill are only part of how we are making buildings safer. The most perfect regime could be created, but without oversight and enforcement, it would completely fail to function.

Clause 100 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations where necessary to ensure that compliance notices issued to accountable persons are as effective as possible. Examples of matters that the Secretary of State can make regulations about include the form and content of notices, or the amendment or withdrawal of notices. The provision allows for amendments where different regulatory bodies may need to be informed of compliance notices, where the period for compliance may need to be extended or where any other change is deemed necessary.

The flexibility the new regulations afford will allow the Building Safety Regulator to issue compliance notices that directly respond to the contemporary needs of the industry. The requirement on the Building Safety Regulator to inform relevant bodies where compliance notices have been issued will be important in ensuring that buildings of concern are on the radar of the relevant authorities. That will align regulatory action across those bodies to avoid the overlap of enforcement action and ensure that each regulatory body is taking appropriate action within its jurisdiction to enforce compliance.

Moving on to clause 101, more than four years ago the Grenfell Tower fire made clear to all of us the consequences that can occur when building safety requirements are not complied with. We have discussed in respect of previous clauses in this part why the Bill creates the new position of the accountable person to deliver safety for residents and others in and around higher-risk buildings. We have also discussed the various duties that this part of the Bill imposes on accountable persons and the provisions of the previous couple of clauses for enforcing those duties by means of compliance notices.

This clause underpins the new regulatory regime for occupied higher-risk buildings, reflecting the potential gravity and consequences of not adhering to the part 4 duties. It makes it abundantly clear that, where any of the duties are breached and have the potential to cause death or serious injury to those in or around the building, the Building Safety Regulator will not have to go through the compliance notice process but will be able to prosecute an accountable person straightaway.

That is in line with the enforcement principles that we set out in our consultation document in 2019 and in the Health and Safety Executive’s published enforcement principles—[Interruption.] I give way to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby.

[Ian Byrne]

I have a simple question: what would have happened to who, if that was applied to Grenfell? That is the first part of the question. The second part is whether a two-year sentence is sufficient if we look at the context of Grenfell.

[Eddie Hughes]

There are two things I would say. First, I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment regarding Grenfell, not least because, as somebody who listens to the BBC podcast every week to follow the proceedings, we are still a long way from the conclusion and completely understanding what went wrong and what the consequences of that were to be. It would be inappropriate for me to comment—[Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman will let me answer his second point before he comes back with a third, that would be very helpful.

Regarding compliance with these notices, the total purpose of the Bill is to intervene at the earliest possible opportunity. I fully appreciate that the hon. Gentleman would say, because of the parallels he is drawing with Grenfell Tower, that two years does not seem an appropriate sentence, but, given that we are talking about intervening before things have gone wrong—somebody identifying a problem, seeing that an accountable person has not addressed it appropriately and therefore taking action at that point—I think two years is an appropriate sentence.

[The Chair]

Just for clarification, if people wish to intervene on the Minister, it is for the Minister and not the Chair to agree to that intervention. I take it from the Minister’s sedentary position that he was giving way to Ian Byrne.

[Ian Byrne]

Thank you, Chair, for your patience in bringing us through this process, because some of us are new to this.

[The Chair]

No problem at all.

[Eddie Hughes]

Me too.

[Ian Byrne]

I am not specifically asking about Grenfell per se, but an example like Grenfell that could happen again. That is what I am trying to draw out: is two years sufficient, and would the legislation target the people who would potentially be responsible for another Grenfell?

[Eddie Hughes]

The entire purpose of the clause, as I say, is to avoid our ever ending up in a position where we have another Grenfell. Therefore, the idea that the accountable person now completely understands their responsibility, and that that is set out in legislation, is increasing in and of itself the focus on safety within the sector. We are seeking to prevent any occurrences by focusing minds and ensuring that even in this new, stricter regime, if people are still prepared to be reckless and ignore the legislation, a custodial sentence can, and hopefully in certain circumstances will, follow. I completely understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes.

That is in line with the enforcement principles that we set out in our 2019 consultation document, and in the Health and Safety Executive’s published enforcement principles. Those documents set out that minor infringements will normally attract informal action, which will be escalated as necessary. More serious breaches will probably attract more formal action, such as compliance notices. The most serious breaches envisaged by the clause will normally attract immediate prosecution. An offence can carry a maximum penalty of an unlimited fine and/or 12 months’ imprisonment if tried in a magistrates court, and an unlimited fine and/or two years’ imprisonment if tried in a Crown court. Either court may also issue a level 1 fine of £200 for each day the default continues after conviction.

The measures will help to ensure compliance with our new regime, and they reflect our strong stance on breaches and enforcement.

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[Eddie Hughes]

The vast majority of accountable persons will meet their new duties under the more stringent building safety regime, but a small number may still fail to comply. The clause establishes the procedural steps that the Building Safety Regulator must take to put a failing building into special measures.

The Building Safety Regulator must notify persons of its intention to apply to the first-tier tribunal for the appointment of a special measures manager who will carry out functions in place of the accountable person. The clause details the persons who should be notified and sets out the information that needs to be provided, which must include the rationale for the special measures proposal. The persons who must be notified include every resident of the building over 16 years old, the fire and rescue authority for the area, and every accountable person for the building, among a number of others.

The Building Safety Regulator must make it clear how a person can make comments and observations about the special measures proposal. That ensures that those who may be affected are consulted and can make representations. Requiring that the rationale for the special measures proposal is contained within the notification gives the residents and those other interested parties clarity on why the notification is being issued.

The Building Safety Regulator must comply with the procedural requirements of clause 102 before making an application for a special measures order. Once the decision is made to make an application to the tribunal, a final notice needs to be given to those persons, detailing the rationale for that decision. The proposed terms of the special measures order must be included in the final notification if the Building Safety Regulator decides to apply to put the building into special measures. Clause 102 enables the Secretary of State to make regulations about the form of notices and the way in which they need to be given. It establishes a key procedural aspect of special measures, and is necessary so that affected parties have the opportunity to make comment and provide representations about the management of their building

The clause builds on that, giving the first-tier tribunal the necessary powers to make a special measures order. Special measures is a last resort intervention. In the majority of circumstances the Building Safety Regulator will be able to take other enforcement measures to direct compliance with the new regime. However, where that fails, the Building Safety Regulator may need to step in and appoint a special measures manager to take over the fire and structural safety management of the building to ensure safety for the residents. The clause sets out the grounds that the tribunal must have agreed to be met when making an order: there must have been a serious failure, or a failure on two or more occasions by the accountable person to comply with a duty or duties under part 4 of the Bill. Those are the same grounds that the Building Safety Regulator must consider when making its application to the tribunal.

The order will set out the functions of the special measures manager, which will have been proposed by the Building Safety Regulator in its application for the order. This will effectively “switch off” the fire and structural safety obligations in part 4 of the Bill of the recalcitrant accountable person. The clause ensures that the tribunal can bestow receivership functions on the special measures manager, allowing them to collect the building safety charge directly from leaseholders, so that the manager can fund the functions that they have been tasked with undertaking.

A special measures order can make provisions covering any matter relating to the special measures manager’s exercise of their functions, and any incidental or ancillary matter. That will be vital to ensure that the special measures manager can carry out their role. The special measures order continues in force until it is discharged. I will speak about the discharging of an order in more detail later.

An example of when a special measures order might be necessary is if an accountable person repeatedly fails to meet the statutory obligations under part 4 of the Bill. Yet if, after using the compliance and enforcement tools at its disposal, the Building Safety Regulator is still of the opinion that the safety of residents is at risk, they apply to the first-tier tribunal for an order to appoint a special measures manager. The special measures order would detail the identity of the special measures manager, the scheme and terms of management, including the specific functions that the special measures manager would be undertaking to make sure that obligations under part 4 of the Bill are met. In making such an order, the first-tier tribunal specifies that the special measures manager has the functions of a receiver of the building safety charge to pay for their own renumeration and functions in relation to undertaking their safety obligations. This clause provides for a hugely important failsafe for when the safety of residents is at risk.

Clause 104 supplements clause 103 in that it sets out further detail about special measures orders. It ensures that a special measures manager takes over the functions of the accountable person for the building as provided for under part 4 of the Bill. However, there are some exceptions to this in order to allow the accountable person to retain the right of appeal, or to make an application, to the first-tier tribunal. Furthermore, once the building is put into special measures, any requirements of a previously issued compliance notice are cancelled. But enforcement action can be continued by the Building Safety Regulator. Once a special measures order is made, the role of the building safety manager ceases and any appointment ends. A special measures manager is solely responsible for managing the fire and structural safety of the building until the order is discharged by the tribunal. My apologies; I thought that I had got to the end of this group of clauses, but I certainly have not.

Clause 105 enables the special measures manager to take over relevant fire and structural safety contracts that may be in place for the building, effectively stepping into the shoes of the accountable person. That ensures that the special measures manager can carry out their functions as set out in the order. The circumstances that led to the appointment of a special measures manager are likely to be so dire that any competent manager would want to replace contractors. There may also be the outstanding provision of works and services, or a breach of contract by a supplier of shoddy workmanship. The clause gives the special measures manager the legal remit to pursue those types of actions under contract.

In pursuing such claims the special measures manager may be liable to pay damages incurred for the actions of the accountable person or building safety manager prior to their appointment. If that happens, those persons will be liable to reimburse the special measures manager. That type of provision is common in receivership, where one party has to step in to take over the management arrangements to help a failing company, and it is necessary here to ensure that the special measures manager can carry out their job effectively. As with other such clauses pertaining to the remit of the special measures manager, our aim is to give them the requisite and necessary ability to effectively carry out their role. In such cases as the example relating to shoddy workmanship and replacement contractors, the special measures manager needs the remit to be able to take a hands-on approach in those issues.

[Ian Byrne]

Where would the special measures managers come from?

[Eddie Hughes]

The functions that will be performed by the special measures manager will be the same or similar to those of an accountable person. As we have discussed on previous clauses, an accountable person could be a single person or an organisation, as in the case of a council or a housing association, so it would depend on the circumstances pertaining to the building in question. It might be that that person is simply an individual who has the competence and experience to discharge the role, or it might be that an organisation is brought in and the competences and experience are spread across several people.

Building Safety Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Eddie Hughes]

When the registration details of a higher-risk building or an accountable person change, there will be a need to inform the Building Safety Regulator, which will need to consider whether further changes are needed. The point is that the Bill needs to be flexible to accommodate the circumstances that the hon. Lady has mentioned. We may need to consider that further.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd, especially after some recent results.

Many people do not have digital access, despite the preoccupation with it. They might not be able to afford it or might not have the materials to get online. How will we ensure that residents who do not have the ability to access information digitally can see the overall picture of the register and any changes made to it? We need to drill down into that so that the Bill ensures that those records are accessible not only digitally and that everybody can access them.

[Eddie Hughes]

I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. We do not have a preoccupation with digital, but it does allow lots of people easy access to the information. However, I think he is referring to the access to information that individual residents and leaseholders will have, which we will discuss later in Committee. It is incredibly important to me and to the Government that that information is presented to residents in an accessible format. That covers the necessity not just to publish the information in hard copy but to ensure that it is presented in an accessible format for people with any disability or impairment. I thank him for making that important point.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 72 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 73 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 74

Occupied building: duty to apply for building assessment certificate

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Building Safety Bill (Tenth sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Thursday 23rd September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Christopher Pincher]

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. We always apply the new burdens doctrine when applying new responsibilities to local authorities, and I am sure that will be the case here.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

rose—

[Christopher Pincher]

As he is on his feet and complying with your adjudication that one should stand to intervene, Mr Efford, I shall give way to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby.

[Ian Byrne]

Thank you, Mr Efford; it is pleasure to know that there is a fellow taxi driver in the room. I didn’t realise you were an ex-cabbie—that makes two of us.

On the issue of local authorities, and the point that the hon. Member for North Devon has just raised, will the Minister ensure that local authorities actually have the funding to ensure that what he is outlining can work within this system?

--- Later in debate ---

[Christopher Pincher]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her amendment. In parenthesis, let me say that the Government are committed to increasing affordable housing and socially rented homes as a component of that. She will know, as an articulate and committed member of the HCLG Committee, that we have made available in the present 2021 to 2026 cycle more than £12 billion, £11.5 billion of which is new money, to build some 180,000 new homes, economic conditions permitting, of which 32,000, or double the number in the present cycle, will be for social rent. We have also made it easier for councils and local authorities to build social homes if they wish, but I will not go into the detail of that, because it is a separate matter and does not apply to this clause.

I had a conversation only last night with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on our approach to the levy and exemptions, and I am pleased to inform the hon. Member for Luton South that we have already proposed —not as a direct result of that conversation, but more broadly—an exemption from the levy for affordable housing as a whole. That includes social housing, as well as housing for rent or sale at least 20% below market value, shared ownership and rent to buy. We recognise that applying a levy to affordable housing, which includes social housing, would increase the cost of developing affordable housing and is likely to be a disincentive to supply.

We presently have a public consultation in flight, seeking views and evidence on how the exemption would work in practice. The consultation will conclude on 15 October. We would not want to pre-empt the outcome of that consultation, although I think the hon. Member for Luton South can see the way our thoughts are progressing, but neither do we want to write such a matter on to the face of the Bill, because we think that it is more appropriate in secondary legislation. We are consulting on it and we do want to ensure that the exemption applies, so I hope that she will agree that her amendment is unnecessary and therefore withdraw it.

[Ian Byrne]

It is really good to hear the Minister talk about social housing, because when the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee has taken evidence on this we have heard only about affordable housing; we could not get the social housing element drawn out. Just to clarify, will social housing associations be exempt from the charge?

[Christopher Pincher]

Our proposal is that social housing be exempted from the levy. We are consulting on how to do it, but that is our proposal, so the Committee can see the flight trajectory that the Government are on. I therefore hope that the hon. Member for Luton South, when she has an opportunity to make her views plain, will withdraw her amendment.

Building Safety Bill (Eighth sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 21st September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Shaun Bailey]

I grateful for the opportunity to speak on clause 32 which although very technical, is none the less very important. I want to speak about mandatory occurrence reporting, because I think that is a key matter. In order to understand trends and where consistent issues are becoming a problem it is key that disasters such as Grenfell are not allowed to repeat. We need to spot problems early. That comes back to the broader point of collaboration and working together. This is a collaborative piece. To ensure that the legislation works for the future and that we have a market that truly works for everyone, we must ensure that information is shared. We must ensure that trends are spotted early. It is about treating the issue as a partnership between stakeholders. To have the BSR acting as the centre point and information gatherer will be key.

The clause needs to provide certainty, although we will need to see the secondary legislation that will derive from the Bill. We need to ensure that leaseholders and residents have certainty and that they know where they stand, but we have a market to meet, and we must build houses. We know that we have a housing shortage and that we need to construct more places for people to live. To do that, we must have a regime that works. We must know that, ultimately, those who use the regime and construct property understand the rules by which they play. Equally, the balance must be struck so that they cannot game the regime either. That is why there needs to clarity.

The hon. Member for Weaver Vale is right that we need to examine the detail in secondary legislation. We need to see what the structure of that will be. It is all well and good to say “we’ll prescribe this, and we’ll prescribe that” but we need to know what specific forms will look like, how people will fill them out, whether they will be usable in a commercial context or will that encourage an organisation, a builder, a company or whoever to circumvent the system, because they think, “Do you know what? It’s a little too complex for me to do, so let’s see how I can fiddle it around”? The wording of the clause goes some way to delivering this, but we need a system that says to builders and stakeholders, “Look, it is within your interests to play within the system and comply with the regulations, and to share the information as part of the mandatory occurrence reporting.”

We have spoken about the impact in Wales as well, and it is important that, ultimately, we have that consistency in England and Wales. The hon. Member for Weaver Vale will know that there is a lot of cross-border buying and selling, and we must ensure that there is consistency so that people know where they stand in terms of the regulations. I am sure that he has many building firms that will do work both in England and in Wales, so they will need that consistency to know exactly the rules within which they are playing. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us about the conversations he has had with colleagues in Welsh Government to ensure that. That will be a real test of clause 32 and the subsequent secondary legislation, so that the marketplace that must fit within the regulatory framework knows where it stands. I come back to the point I made before, which is ultimately about ensuring that we can continue to have a market that builds houses, to address the situation that we have with local house building.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

I want to touch on a couple of things. Enforcement is key. We heard lots of evidence about the need for culture change. Enforcement gives us rules and regulations, which the sector needs, but we need to change the culture. Listening to the Minister’s response, I am at a loss to know where the enforcement will come from and how it will be funded. It would be good to get a real understanding of how this golden thread will be enforced. We listened to evidence from the Fire Brigades Union about how fire safety officers have been decimated. We know about local authority cuts. I would really like an understanding, on the record, of where the enforcement will be made and how it will be funded. We had rules, regulations and laws, but without enforcement we still had Grenfell. Hugely important moving forward is how the new set of regulations will be enforced to ensure that it is adhered to and we get the culture change that we desperately need.

--- Later in debate ---

[Shaun Bailey]

Clause 33 is just common sense, really. It is ultimately about ensuring that those people who are appointing people, or those organisations that are making appointments to do work, are doing so in a way that is right and safe. I am conscious that I should not stray on to clause 34, but it is about ensuring that they appoint people with the ability to do the work and to perform those basic duties that we would expect.

I am slightly surprised that we need clause 33, to be honest, because to me it is common sense that if we were going to appoint people to do a job, we would make sure they could do it properly in the first place. None the less, we have seen, and we have heard in the evidence, that it is needed. It is probably a sad indictment of the market and the industry we are dealing with that we need to specifically prescribe in legislation that people who are appointed to do the work can do so in the way they need to, and that we will require building regulations to specify what that looks like.

I turn to the general duties as specified in new paragraph 5B. A lot of this stuff would appear to be relatively straightforward; it is just about ensuring that people are undertaking the work in the right way. I will not make too many comments on industry competence, because I appreciate that that is addressed further on, but, broadly speaking, for many of these clauses it will be interesting to see the regulations that follow and how that is prescribed.

[Ian Byrne]

Is the hon. Gentleman wondering, as I am, about professional indemnity insurance and the ability of all duty holders to secure that?

[Shaun Bailey]

That is a good question. What will be needed is a broader conversation with the industry, and the evidence from the Association of British Insurers was about that industry engagement. What we are trying to do with this legislation is to bring about cultural change, so that cultural change must be holistic. As part of that, we must be open to having those conversations with insurers and with all parts of the sector. I am just thinking about these duty holders, and the point raised by the hon. Gentleman is about remembering what the sector is.

Obviously, it is not just the firms that are building or constructing these developments: it is the insurers, the subcontractors and the people who provide the materials. The sector encompasses all those people as well, so how far do we extend these duties? Again, these are questions that we are going to have to deal with, perhaps through secondary legislation: how far do those appointments go? What do they look like? Who are we appointing? Who are we applying them to?

Those are all academic questions that I do not wish to tempt my right hon. Friend the Minister to answer today, because I appreciate that we will go into further detail about them, but I think that the point made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby triggers a further conversation that is definitely worth having. Broadly speaking, though, clause 33 is about doing what many of us would consider to be common sense, and for that reason—although it is quite surprising that we need it—I fully support it and hope that it becomes part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Shaun Bailey]

I am mindful that just looking at this clause triggers a lot of thought processes. As the hon. Member for Weaver Vale has just said, we might have thought that this was already a given: that if we get someone to do a job, they should have the skills and qualifications needed to do it properly. It triggers some broader thought processes on how we embed these legislative and regulatory standards within the system more broadly.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Minister for his response to the intervention on education. Clearly, as a result of this clause, we will have to embed this within the culture, which will require that stakeholder engagement. I was heartened to hear my right hon. Friend say that he would take that away and ponder it.

The key thing, as with all of this, is how it will operate in practice. The sentiment of the clause is the right one: in order to ensure that people living in high-rise buildings are safe, those buildings must be constructed by individuals who know what they are doing, and the onus must be placed in statute on the organisations constructing these buildings to ensure that the competence and skills base is there.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Devon raised an important point in her intervention about getting the balance right. I think this does get the balance right, in that it ensures that we can still recruit to the industry, so that a flow of workforce still comes into it, but things clearly have changed since 1984. My right hon. Friend the Minister articulated that by highlighting that the existing regulations are 37 years old. Just to put that in perspective for the Committee, that is slightly before I was born. I was born in 1992—I do not know whether that horrifies some Members.

I am the grandson of a builder, and it is clear that building sites have changed in 40 years. The expectations and complexity of the jobs that firms are now undertaking require the ability to know that the competencies are there. We now have a raft of qualifications, and different levels of experience and needs, as I have said in previous contributions—I am sure everyone has noted that meticulously. None the less, it is important. Things have changed and moved on. We are operating and trying to regulate an ever-changing marketplace that has new technologies coming on board and new materials coming into play, and we need the individuals who operate in this space to have the skillsets and ability to react to that.

The one thing that I would say—perhaps this will be addressed in secondary legislation—is that in my profession, we always had to show continuous professional development. We had to show that we had not just sat there after qualifying perhaps 10 years ago, because things had moved on.

[Ian Byrne]

On the issue of competence, last week we touched on training—the funding of training and who is going to do it. We will need lots and lots of people, and that is a huge opportunity for this country, but who will monitor the competence? Will it be accredited? Will there be an agency to accredit it? Again, this all links back to the evidence that we have been listening to over the past two weeks about culture change. This can start right at the very beginning of somebody’s career, and it can be hard-wired in. It would be good to get an understanding of who will oversee the competence, and how the training will be delivered and—I am going to say the magical word again—funded.

[Shaun Bailey]

The hon. Gentleman makes a really important point. I am sure he and I are both passionate advocates of technical and vocational education, and this clause says that we have to treat the industry with some respect. That means having in place accreditation structures that are properly recognised. I get what he says about funding, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister has heard his plea. I say to the hon. Gentleman—if you will indulge me, Mr Efford—that he has a sympathiser in me, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister will at some point have conversations with the Department for Education and the Treasury about how that looks. The hon. Gentleman is right. Ultimately, although this is a short clause, it leads to so many different things. That is the key thing. Ultimately, as he articulated well, if we are going to ask for this, we need to know what the accreditation models are and the FE providers need to know what the structures are for providing this training. All those conversations come out of clause 34.

--- Later in debate ---

[Shaun Bailey]

I am not sure whether the question was to me or to the Minister, but I will give my opinion, as I am sure the Minister will give his.

From my perspective—you are being very indulgent, Mr Efford, so thank you—what clause 34 does for productivity is to push the point on accreditation and on being sure that people have qualifications, so that a young person thinking about where to go hears, “Come to this trade, because you will get skills, qualifications and accredited.” I know from my communities that a lot of the time it is about how something is pitched or framed. If we want to attract young people into jobs and skills, we have to say what they will get from it. If a young person can get accredited and feel, “You know what, I have a qualification, and can take this further. I can move forward and go different places with it”, that is one way to deal with the productivity issue, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton North East said in his intervention. There are many other ways as well.

I was trying to articulate a point on the role of the Building Safety Regulator in setting industry competence. We have said throughout our deliberations on the subject of safety that we cannot see the BSR only as the executioner who comes in at the end, when it has all gone wrong. It cannot do that; it has to be leading the way—that is the key bit. That comes back to the point that I made before—my hon. Friend doubled down on it for me with his intervention—which is about ensuring that the link-in with the different stakeholders allows us to implement what is going on in clause 34—to ensure that the training bars are there, the levels are in place and we know where we start. When we train up the next generation of people for the construction industry, they need a clear idea of the knowledge base that is necessary.

[Ian Byrne]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his long and knowledgeable contribution. I was listening to what he was saying. What a wonderful opportunity for the trade unions to be involved in training right from the outset. Does he agree?

[Shaun Bailey]

I will make a probably revolutionary point: I might be a Conservative MP but, yes, trade unions have a part in this—110%. The discourse with the trade unions is beneficial. I, too, have benefited from positive relationships with my trade unions when necessary. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Again, part of that is the holistic approach. That is the whole point of how the clause has been constructed. It allows us to be flexible and to have those ongoing conversations, which will be important in the implementation of the legislation. My right hon. Friend the Minister is listening intently and absorbing this—I am grateful to him for doing so—and he will pass it on to his officials, because to make the Bill effective we will have to be as broad brush as possible with engagement.

To conclude—I am sure many hon. Members are disappointed—clause 34 as drafted, as I said about clause 33, does something that is basic, which is that people who undertake a job of work should have the ability to do it. I hope I have articulated that in some way in my contribution, but as I have said, that will trigger a lot of further conversations. We need this to work. We need to ensure that the people undertaking the work on these high-risk developments—which we still need, because we have a housing shortage and we need to build more houses and more places for people to live—have the relevant qualifications. To that end, the secondary legislation, the guidance note, the approved document referred to by my right hon. Friend the Minister, and the competence standards being developed by the British Standards Institution, will all be important. We need to ensure that they are translated into a workable approach that brings together all the different stakeholders —we have discussed trade unions, further education providers and the industry more broadly—so that when 16, 17 or 18-year-olds decide to follow this profession as a career, they know what is expected of them. Speaking from my own experience, it can be odd when people do not know what the benchmark is.

Building Safety Bill (Seventh sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Tuesday 21st September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Shaun Bailey]

I feel that my contribution might be slightly repetitive, given the broad agreement on the clause in Committee.

The hon. Member for Weaver Vale was right that the clause is pragmatic. He was spot on when he said it is about rebuilding trust in the processes. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud, I trained as a lawyer and I know the frustration when bodies do not share information with one another. We have to remember—the hon. Member for St Albans picked up on this in her interventions—we are dealing with people who do not understand the systems, but will have to access them. After looking at the array of information, should someone send their concern or query to the wrong body—unaware that they had done so—we have to ensure that it is still actioned. We are dealing with situations and problems that impact on people’s lives: this is about the safety of individuals in their homes. Where that happens, we have to ensure that seamless sharing of information and co-operation between the agencies—the clause does that.

It is also right for those organisations to co-operate with one another. As we touched on last week in our deliberations, we cannot have a siloed approach. Organisations have to communicate and work together. We have to build a structure within the legislative framework that not just enables that, but to a degree ensures it happens and almost makes it the default that they have to share information, because that is the system in which they find themselves—so there is no way they can avoid doing so.

That being said, the proof of how this will work is in how it is delivered operationally. What will be vital for the regulator to do and for my right hon. Friend the Minister to work on is to ensure that the operational delivery works, that the systems are there to allow that to happen and that the communications are there, that agencies are talking to one another and we have computer systems that do not just fall down at the first moment, but can operate. Once the system becomes operational, I will be looking at how it functions.

I am heartened to see an emphasis on data privacy. We have to get the balance right. Ultimately, we are dealing with personal data. We still need to ensure the right of individuals to have their personal data safeguarded, and their right to remain anonymous, where necessary, is also important. We must ensure that data is dealt with appropriately.

It is right to handle the situation by putting a duty on the different stakeholders. The way we have had to deal with these horrendous issues has been through a multifaceted, multi-stakeholder approach, so we are going to have to build networks. As is often the case, when the networks are built, there is then pressure to ensure that operational delivery works.

I support the clause and am heartened to see what is in schedule 3. We have to ensure that the clause can deliver, and it will be for my right hon. Friend the Minister, his ministerial colleagues and the civil servants to ensure that can happen. If the clause delivers and we ensure that it works, we will have a seamless system that people trust, and people will know that if they have concerns, they will be addressed.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. For me, this is about funding, as it was last week. We go back to delivery. As the hon. Gentleman says, this is absolutely and intrinsically about the safety of the people we are talking about, but without the funding for the organisations he mentioned—the fire authorities and the councils—it will fall down. Will the Minister ensure that the correct funding is ring-fenced for the organisations to be able to ensure the safety that is required for the people in the buildings?

[Shaun Bailey]

The hon. Gentleman touches on a really important point. I have a couple of points to address it. Last week, we heard from the Minister that there would be, broadly speaking, a new deal for funding. We also have to look at the procurement mechanisms that are used, in which I have a particular interest. They are really important and must be well scrutinised. We must use the procedures available in this place to ensure that that is done properly.

I was very heartened by what my right hon. Friend the Minister said last week on funding. As Members of this place, we have to ensure, in the ways we do as Back-Bench Members, that he follows through. I have found in the two years I have served as a Member of this place that funding is one thing, but making sure it is used effectively—not just properly—is another. One way to ensure that the organisations to which we say, “Right, build me a system,” can do that is to have the guidance in place, if, for example, we are talking about the systems that will have to be developed. The fire authorities’ primary function is to protect people. They are not whizz kids at building IT systems. We need to ensure that there is a method by which that could be done.

Equally, as I am sure the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby will agree, local authorities have many different duties. I think of my own local authority, Sandwell. It could have one department doing four things at the same time. They have to prioritise. They cannot be procuring systems at the same time as dealing with building safety. There has to be a way.

The clause has triggered a broader conversation. I want to stay within scope and I do not want to stray too far, but when we think about how we ensure co-operation, clause 26 highlights that there are broader discussions about ensuring that is done in the right way. I do not disagree with the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby on funding. The Minister touched on that last week. Let us see how that goes, and scrutinise it. Ultimately, it is about processes working.

This is the right clause. Sharing data and information will be important, but it is about ensuring that that can be done properly and that the systems are there. I am absolutely sure that my right hon. Friend will do his best to ensure that that happens in the best way possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christopher Pincher]

Let me begin by speaking to amendments 7 and 8. They are minor and technical, and they align the language on the charging powers in clauses 27 and 56—the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby will be taking close note—by inserting additional references to charges alongside fees. We will say more about that in future. The intention is to avoid any unintended ambiguities or inconsistencies in the charging provisions created by the Bill. The context is that clause 27 contains important provisions enabling the Secretary of State to introduce regulations that enable the Building Safety Regulator to charge.

Charging powers are necessary to deliver Dame Judith’s recommendations in the independent review that the regulator should charge, and to put the regulator on a sound financial footing. The amendments ensure that there is no ambiguity that regulations under clause 27 can allow the Building Safety Regulator to make charges as well as levy fees. Charges are a slightly broader concept than fees, because fees typically relate to a service. Someone provides me with a service, so I pay them a fee. A charge could go wider by covering additional activities, such as regulatory interventions needed to bring the regulated party back into compliance with the regime. The recommendations of the independent review indicated that where possible, regulated parties should bear the cost when their behaviour results in additional regulatory activity. When the regulated parties have caused such activity, they should potentially bear the cost. We therefore want the Bill to allow charges that meet the recommendations of the independent review to be applied. Fees and charges provided for in regulations under clause 27 will of course remain within the bounds set by “Managing Public Money”.

Let me turn now to clause 27 itself. The Government are committed to ensuring that the Building Safety Regulator receives the funding required to enable it to deliver.

[Ian Byrne]

I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. What he was outlining was extremely interesting. Are we establishing the polluter pays principle?

[Christopher Pincher]

The hon. Gentleman is attempting to lead me down a path that I suspect he will return to later in the Committee’s deliberations. As I said, we want to ensure that should a regulated party engage in behaviour that results in additional activity for the regulator, the regulator should be able to charge. I will confine my answer to that very specific set of grounds.

Building Safety Bill (Fifth sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Order. That is clause 3, not clause 2. We will come back to that when we debate that issue. I call Ian Byrne.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Dowd. It is a splendid tie. I rise to emphasise that all of us on the HCLG Committee thought that the independent Building Safety Regulator was a fine idea, but over the last decade there have been 46% cuts to HSE and a third of officers have gone. There is a real worry about whether this will be resourced. I know people have spoken about that this morning, but we cannot emphasise it enough. Without an independent, well-resourced Building Safety Regulator, it all falls down.

I would like further commitments about where we are going, and what sums we are talking about. Will there be a complete recapitalisation of HSE to where it was pre-austerity, which we will then build on? It is so important that this is capitalised, and that the experience, officers and moneys are available to ensure that HSE can play a hugely important role in changing the culture. We all heard in the evidence sessions—and I have heard since 2019, sitting on the Select Committee—about how the culture in the building industry has created what we have talked about over the past two days. We heard some heart-rending evidence from so many people.

[Shaun Bailey]

The hon. Gentleman is very experienced in local government and an experienced member of the HCLG Committee. Does he not agree that it will be really important to ensure that the regulator has a culture of independence? I am sure he will agree that ensuring that the regulator is beholden to no one but itself will be the only way to ensure that it truly keeps people safe.

[Ian Byrne]

I completely concur with the hon. Gentleman. It is a very valid point, but as I said, this is about ensuring that the resources are there. The hon. Member for St Albans made a very good point about local government. There have been 68% cuts to Liverpool City Council. It has been hollowed out. The ability to check on buildings has been catastrophic at times. This comes back to funding. The intent and the money have to be there. Without them, I am afraid that we could be back to some of the situations that many of us have faced in our constituencies with some buildings.

[Christopher Pincher]

I congratulate all members of the Committee on their contributions on the clause. A number of Members, properly and understandably, raised funding, including my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West and Opposition Members such as the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby. We have made further funding available for the creation of the shadow regulator within HSE. We also, as I said earlier, made funding available to HSE during the covid emergency. We have also made commitments through the building safety levy to ensure that developers that have made mistakes in the past provide appropriate and proper restitution for the remediation of high-rise buildings. We will provide more information about that in due course. Certainly, the funding of HSE is, as always, subject to discussions with the Treasury in the spending review, and I am sure we will hear more about that—to the benefit of HSE—in due course.

The hon. Member for Weaver Vale referred to Grenfell in his remarks, and he was right to do so because Grenfell was the wake-up call to the challenges that we face in a very complex development, ownership and safety terrain. That is why we must approach the Bill and the clause with care, to ensure that we address the complex situation of buildings, safety and ownership carefully, and that is what we will do throughout the course of the Committee.

The hon. Gentleman made two specific points to which I think I ought to respond. He asked about residents’ voices. Sarah Albon made clear in her evidence to the Committee last week that HSE is reaching out—to use that modern phrase—to stakeholders, including residents and dwellers of high-rise buildings, to ensure that their voices and concerns are heard. We have also committed to a new homes ombudsman. That is not the point of the clause, but it is something that we will debate later in our scrutiny of the Bill, giving the hon. Gentleman and other Members the opportunity to learn about the Government’s work to ensure that residents’ voices are heard. The hon. Gentleman also made the point about HSE funding, and I refer him to the comments that I have just made.

To conclude, we have heard the high regard in which HSE is held by all members of the Committee for its historical and, one might say, international reputation as a safety board of the highest regard. We believe that HSE provides the regulator with the necessary powers to effectively deliver the new regulatory regime. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 1 agreed to.

Clause 3

The regulator: objectives and regulatory principles

--- Later in debate ---

[Siobhan Baillie]

There will be many discussions over the course of the Committee about the definitions, but ultimately we believe in the regulator, in the work that is being done, and in people such as Dame Judith Hackitt and Baroness Brown, who have been mentioned. Those climate change considerations have already been factored in.

[Ian Byrne]

We need culture change, so why not put it in the Bill to direct the culture of the building industry, which for a long, long time has been wrong in placing profit over safety? Why not put that change in the Bill, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale has asked for?

[Siobhan Baillie]

As I have already pointed out, I do not feel it is necessary to add that given the scope of the Bill, the work of the regulator and the work that has been done to get to this stage. We need to be really confident in the regulator so that it is not hamstrung and can use the expertise of local authorities, the Environment Agency and all the other bodies with which it is directed to work, to make sure that the building safety work is done. I implore the Committee to agree that there is absolutely no need for the amendment.