Police Grant Report (England and Wales)

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

I thank the Chairman of the Committee for his letter, and also for the kind comments that he often makes about me when I am at the Dispatch Box and when I appear before his Committee. I wrote to him yesterday; I am sorry if he has not received my letter. I have not given a definitive date, and I do not think that he would expect me to do so at this stage, given that we are still considering how the settlement should be laid out. We need to ensure that I do not have to stand at the Dispatch Box and eat as much humble pie as I did last time, when we got it wrong. I admitted that we had got it wrong, and we will not make the same mistake again.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

May I question the Minister on a point of fact? I know that he will have the facts in front of him. My police force, South Wales police, has had about 240 fewer officers on the beat since 2010. We can talk about whether that is a good or a bad thing, but it is a fact. According to my rough calculations, based on the data release, South Wales police will be subject to a real-terms cut of nearly £3.5 million in the next two years. Am I wrong?

[Mike Penning]

I think that the hon. Gentleman is wrong. Not only have I met South Wales MPs in the last couple of days, but the very vocal PCC—whom I know very well, as, I am sure the hon. Gentleman does—has not raised those figures with me. I suggest that, before South Wales police asks for any more money—which I do not think that it will need to do—they should look very closely at the size of its reserves, which are astronomical.

We need to take account of what the police have already been able to achieve, and the collaboration that has taken place with the help of extra funding from the Department, in order to find ways of providing better day-to-day policing out there. We should not sit in our silos, as we have for many years, allowing money to be spent in a building that is being only half used while another building up the road is just sitting there and could be put to full use.

Hampshire MPs are rightly proud of their emergency services. I am sure that we are all proud of ours as well, but the innovation that has taken place in Hampshire is quite astounding. Money has been saved that can be used in other front-line work, and that has been absolutely brilliant. Winchester has a brand-new fire station. On the first floor are the fire officers and on the next floor are the police, because it is a police station as well as a fire station. More than half the fire stations in England and Wales are within 1 kilometre of an ambulance station or a police station. We are starting to see the same sort of innovation elsewhere in the country, and we should ensure that it continues.

Access to Justice: Wales

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Westminster Hall

[Carolyn Harris]

I think I referred to it as sentencing by text, if I am not mistaken. It is an absolutely absurd idea.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The Minister did indeed say that mobile phones would be the way forward for my constituents. We are facing closures in Pontypridd and Bridgend, which are difficult enough to get to at the moment. To tell those constituents to come down the valley and change transport to get to Cardiff will add another impediment to access to justice. Through my hon. Friend, I would say that the Minister really needs to think this through again and to think about the geography of Wales. We are not flatlands with a huge transport hub; we are valleys. I know that your constituency is affected by the issue as well, Mrs Moon.

[Carolyn Harris]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. The Law Society has expressed “grave concerns” that the proposal to close courts—I agree with this point—could “erode access to justice”. Its worries are shared by many people across the region.

Whether it is closing courts, slashing legal aid or any other reforms that I have not had an opportunity to address—such as employment tribunal fees, changes to judicial review or the plan to scrap the Human Rights Act—Government policies are having a severe impact on access to justice in Wales. It is the responsibility of any Government to ensure that our justice system does not become the preserve of the wealthy and unresponsive to the needs of those who need to use it most. It is vital that the justice system is accessible when we need it and accessible to all. I seriously fear that after another five years of this Government, neither of those opportunities will be open for Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Yes; I hesitate to say what the mark would be.

We moved as expeditiously as possible to suspend the charge. The best legal advice available to the Department suggested that this was the most effective way of relieving magistrates of the obligation to impose it.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

6. What plans he has to reform HM Courts and Tribunals Service.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

10. What plans he has to modernise the courts and tribunals system.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)]

I am delighted that we have secured over £700 million of funding to invest in our courts and tribunals. We have worked closely with the senior judiciary to develop a plan to reform our courts system so that it delivers swifter and fairer justice for everyone in England and Wales at a lower cost.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

My constituents in Ogmore face the closure of two local courts: one at Pontypridd in the neighbouring constituency and one in Bridgend. How does the Minister respond to the president of the Law Society, Jonathan Smithers, when he warns that:

“Combined with the further planned increases in court fees and reductions in eligibility for legal aid, many of the proposed closures will serve to deepen the inequalities in the justice system between those who can and cannot afford to pay.”?

[Mr Vara]

It is important in the 21st century that we recognise that a third of the 460 court and tribunal buildings are utilised at a rate of less than 50%. Many of the buildings are not fit for purpose, are listed or are not in compliance with equalities legislation. There is a host of problems and the cost of running the buildings is phenomenal. We need a reformed, up-to-date and modern courts system, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that it will provide access to justice for all.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Andrew Selous)]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend and welcome that point. He will be aware of the importance we are placing on improving education in prisons with the Dame Sally Coates review, but it must follow on through the gate, so that, for example, courses started in prison are completed in the community if they have not already been finished.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

T6. Further to my earlier intervention, may I simply remind the Minister of the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of pounds that have been spent in recent years on the courts in Pontypridd and Bridgend? He urges me to consider the upgrading. They have been upgraded; do not close them.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)]

Access to justice comes in various forms. An African chief justice who visited me earlier this year told me that he wanted a justice system in which the people living in the villages outside the capital city could access their courts through their mobile phones. That is how the world is progressing, and we have to ensure that we keep pace with it. We will keep the majesty of the court building for those serious cases that require it, but we also need to recognise that modern technology requires different forms of communication, and that access to justice is not what it used to be in the past.

Rural Crime

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 9th April 2014 Westminster Hall

[Gordon Henderson]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s intervention. I have heard about digital mapping. All the ways of helping to solve crime are about intelligence-led policing, which is what I am talking about at the moment. Mike Bax continued:

“With thousands of people spread across the rural areas people must learn that it is not a failure if the police do not make an arrest. The very fact that the incident has been reported to the police provides them with intelligence.

Perhaps the identity of the vehicle, a description of the clothes the offender was wearing or a boot print in the mud, might well prove vital on another occasion.

Further more regular reporting by the community provides the police with information on crime patterns. Using that they can make predictions and be in the right place at the right time more often, thereby responding more effectively.”

That is intelligence-led policing, which is what we are talking about.

Intelligence gathering and digital mapping are fine, but dedicated rural police officers must act on that intelligence. Rural dwellers are being subjected to increasing levels of intimidation and violence. The National Farmers Union is aware of gamekeepers waking up to find their dustbins and pheasant feeders stuffed with dead birds as a warning. One gamekeeper was shot at with 1.5 ounce lead balls—any shooters here will know that that is pretty hefty shot—while driving. Another narrowly escaped serious injury when bringing his daughter back from school. Two men stepped out into the road in front of him and deliberately shot his windscreen out with similar sized lead balls. The point is that poaching is rural crime.

We then have livestock rustling, which is also becoming an increasing problem. It is estimated that 60,000 sheep were stolen in 2011 alone. The broader implications of livestock theft are very serious, because once animals are stolen, they are no longer tracked by the movement databases in place, increasing the risk of another foot-and-mouth epidemic. In addition, meat entering the food chain through livestock theft cannot be traced from farm to fork and it may be subject to unhygienic slaughterhouse conditions and contamination that risks human health.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate; he is making some very good points. Where there is livestock rustling, whether it be sheep or cattle, does he agree that one of the curious factors is what is happening at the point of the slaughter of those animals, in terms of proof of identification? It is a real curiosity that the meat could find its way into the food supply chain.

[Gordon Henderson]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention; that is exactly the point I am making. If sheep are removed from a database system that tracks them from farm to fork and they are let into the black market, there is no way of ever tracing that, so yes, it is a problem. It is a problem because, again, livestock rustling is a rural crime, but one of those that people forget about.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

My point is a continuation of that. If 60,000 sheep are disappearing through rustling, somehow or other they are washing up somewhere and entering the food supply chain, at a point where an abattoir owner, a slaughterhouse man or a processor is asking that individual, “Where did this shipment come from?” It is an interesting point, because the abattoirs in my area certainly know where every single animal has come from. Something is going wrong; perhaps the Minister could answer.

[Gordon Henderson]

Or not—people might be taking it along to illegal, unlicensed or backstreet abattoirs. They might be cutting the animals’ throats in a back shed somewhere. That is the problem. We have the issue of not being able to trace from farm to fork, but also that of animal welfare and animals being slaughtered inhumanely.

Another rural crime that I want to touch on is fly-grazing. That is the unauthorised grazing of land by horses and ponies, whether or not the owner of the horses is in breach of a previous agreement or has simply placed the horses on the land without discussion with the owner or tenant of the land. Fly-grazing is becoming an increasing problem, with several thousand horses being grazed on land without permission. I understand that the problem has become worse in the past three years, particularly since the introduction of horse passports and microchipping, which were intended to increase the traceability of horses—particularly those likely to enter the food chain.

The NFU is calling for the following action, with which I have some sympathy. It wants fly-grazing to be made a criminal offence, so that action can be taken to bring offenders to justice swiftly. It wants the Horse Passports Regulations 2009 to be amended, so that they form a streamlined set of rules, meeting the minimum requirements of the relevant EC directive, thereby helping to improve traceability. It wants the Animals Act 1971 to be amended to bring it into line with the best of the private Acts of Parliament that enable local authorities to act when horses are left on private land; it wants it to be clear that the 1971 Act covers animals deliberately placed on land by their owners.

The NFU wants police forces to develop procedures for dealing with horses on the public highway that take account of bio-security in addition to respecting property rights. Police should be aware of the danger of spreading diseases such as African horse sickness when seizing or moving horses. The union also feels that local authorities should be prepared to offer surplus land for rental to horse owners, where appropriate and compatible with surrounding land use.

I have touched on fly-grazing because, again, it is a rural crime. However, there are many other rural crimes that cause problems for farmers, such as fuel theft, metal theft, vandalism, trespassing, arson, criminal damage, fly-tipping, illegal Traveller sites and illegal raves. There are too many and they are too varied to mention in depth today, but they are all rural crimes.

In conclusion, I want to relay to the Government the worries of those of my constituents who live in more isolated rural communities. They are worried that rural crime is increasing and that it is given a lower priority than urban crime. They are worried because they rarely see a member of the police force on duty in their community and because they feel forgotten by the Government, local authorities and the police. I very much hope that the Government will take steps to reassure my rural communities that they are just as important as urban communities, and ensure that they receive the policing to which they are entitled and they deserve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

It is a real pleasure to serve under your stewardship again, Mr Weir. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson) on securing the debate and on his wide-ranging contribution, stretching across the panoply of issues that cover rural crime. It is sometimes difficult to establish exactly what is rural crime, but I think the essence of it is that it is non-urban crime. There are some similarities between urban and rural crime—theft of oil, for example, often takes place in the heart of my urban communities, but it is a significant issue in rural areas—but there are some special areas of concern in rural communities. The hon. Gentleman covered a wide range of them, and I commend him for doing so.

Livestock rustling is a concerning and fascinating area. As I mentioned in my intervention, the fact that 60,000 sheep disappear is of great concern and has a significant effect on those who make their livelihood from the husbandry of livestock, but of equal concern is the question of where they are disappearing to. Where are they washing up within the food chain? How are they entering the food chain where there is no traceability whatsoever? That is a real issue. I hope that the Minister, in discussions with his colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, will address how we clamp down on that further without imposing additional burdens on the farming community. We have to make sure that when animals present at abattoirs and meat processors, they can be identified and traced back to the farm and the landowner.

The hon. Gentleman drew attention to metal theft, another crime that affects urban areas but is of significant concern in sparsely populated rural areas. Many criminals, including perpetrators of quite serious organised crime, see rural areas as an easier target because they offer an opportunity to get away with criminality without the prying eyes of CCTV on every street corner.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned fly-tipping, a long-running issue that has costs and is associated with criminality. It is not an incidental occurrence involving hard-pressed people; the perpetrators are criminals who are trying to get away with not paying their dues towards landfill by simply dumping in the countryside. Ultimately, landowners and local authorities pick up the cost for collecting and disposing of such waste, so we must constantly push forward with measures to tackle the problem.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I am interested in the shadow Minister’s view on whether the increased use of technology in urban and suburban areas is driving the practice out. Has the technology got so good in urban and suburban areas that the problem is simply being spread over a wider rural area?

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Increased tightening up in urban areas displaces criminal activity. Curiously, that brings me to another issue raised by the hon. Gentleman where there has been displacement of activity, namely fly-grazing. At a well attended debate in this Chamber about six months ago, hon. Members from England and Wales discussed the matter. When we talk about fly-grazing, we are not talking about the individual pony or horse that we occasionally see on an estate, tethered by a rope to a peg in the ground, where we worry about the animal welfare considerations and wonder why the animal is there. Neither are we talking about some within the Traveller community who have a culture of keeping the odd horse and parking it somewhere temporarily. There is serious criminality behind fly-grazing, as we know in Wales, which is why, as I am sure the Minister is aware, the Welsh Government recently worked with local authorities to change the law in Wales.

The change in the law in Wales was designed to deal with the massive incidence of fly-grazing, in which hundreds of animals were being parked on environmentally sensitive areas, or in which landowners would find that their fences were demolished and animals appeared on their land. In such cases, the local authority would have to go through all the bureaucracy involved in seizing the animals, many of which were in very bad condition, and absorb the cost of looking after them. If no owner came forward to claim ownership of the animals, the local authority would be obliged to auction them off at a knock-down price after giving them a full veterinary overhaul and making sure that they were all okay; only to find that, lo and behold—what a surprise—the owner, although never declaring themselves as such, would turn up and buy the lot of them, and a couple of weeks later they would appear in another farmer’s field or in another area of environmental sensitivity.

The Labour Welsh Government have changed the law in Wales, but one direct outcome of the change has been to displace that activity; it has moved elsewhere. Let us be frank about this: it is serious, organised, large-scale criminal activity. We are not talking about the odd individual; the police have identified family concerns involved in such activity. Instead of just going over the border, the problem is starting to wash up in English counties such as Hampshire. It seems to have been quite well planned. What conversations has the Minister had with ministerial colleagues in DEFRA on the matter? Is he minded to consider a change in the law to ensure that such criminal activity is not displaced across the border into England, and that local authorities have the tools to deal with the problem, should it wash up on their borders?

The hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey raised the need for better collaboration to tackle serious and organised crime, and I agree entirely. Interestingly, there are good examples of predominantly urban police forces deploying their resources to assist predominantly rural areas. In my own area, South Wales police provides significant financial support, resources and expertise to deal with serious and organised crime in Dyfed-Powys, for example, which covers the largest rural area in Wales. We must ensure that police forces collaborate to deal with such issues.

The hon. Gentleman covered so many things in his speech that he did not have time to tackle one of the biggest areas of serious crime—illegitimate gangmaster activity. In a neighbouring constituency to the hon. Gentleman’s, within the past year a large group of Lithuanian workers were seized, found living in the most appalling portakabin-style accommodation. They were not being paid the minimum wage, deductions were being made from their pay left, right and centre, and they were being kept in the most appalling conditions by an illegal, illegitimate gangmaster. The Gangmasters Licensing Authority was a great innovation after the Morecambe bay tragedy. This shows that there the GLA is still needed, and I say to those present of all parties that it must still be adequately resourced so that it can be effective—lean, mean, efficient and nasty in dealing with illegitimate gangmasters. The people who suffer most from that aspect of what is predominantly rural crime are the legitimate operators—the food producers and farmers—who are undercut by those criminals. Gangmasters and trafficking are often linked to other serious crime such as drugs or money laundering, so they must be tackled.

The hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) has a great deal of experience as a former DEFRA Minister and a landowner. He mentioned the role of our new police and crime commissioners in influencing priorities on rural crime. There are good examples of best practice, and we must ensure that it is spread out to others so that they can choose whether to implement it in their own areas. We could argue that the old police authorities, if they had been so minded, always had the opportunity to deploy a rural focus on certain aspects of crime. Some PCCs have stood up and said publicly that they will focus on certain aspects of crime. As the hon. Gentleman rightly said, we all need to play a part, and because of the nature of the challenges in rural areas, landowners, farmers, neighbourhood watch, farm watch and farm contractors must come together to tackle the problem.

I was glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned the section 59 reforms on the seizure, confiscation and destruction of vehicles, because it saves me from having to do so. The reform is a welcome innovation, because it hits those involved in such crime, hard and rapidly. My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) made an intervention, which I will return to in a moment, following on from her recent excellent debate.

I would welcome the Minister’s response on whether he is minded to consider extending the fly-grazing enabling powers to local authorities in England. That would be a huge step forward. Why not do it? It would not impose costs on local authorities in England, but would save them money. At the moment there are huge costs to them for looking after the animals and getting them veterinary treatment, and for the enormous bureaucracy and delay before an owner suddenly pops up to take them off their hands at a knock-down price.

I wonder whether the Minister has recently met DEFRA Ministers to discuss the numbers of police and PCSOs in rural areas. Has he had any representations from those Ministers about the possible effect of those numbers on matters that have been referred to this afternoon, such as hare coursing, wildlife crime, the massive increase in fuel theft from rural homes as well as businesses, livestock rustling, fly-grazing, and organised crime in relation to heavy plant, farm equipment and agricultural machinery? If he has not met Ministers, does he plan to do so soon?

There is a contentious issue that we need to deal with. We have mentioned that police and crime commissioners have flexibility and public accountability in determining priorities for their areas. Setting aside for a moment the controversy about whether badger culling should be part of an overall TB eradication strategy, a fascinating aspect of recent discussions is the fact that there have been significant policing costs, but we are left to guess what they are. However, that involves a direct input; there is a displaced cost—a cost-benefit issue.

What is the effect on other aspects of policing of being forced to put significant amounts of restricted policing money from a finite resource into the policing of badger culls? The Minister shakes his head; I shall continue with the point. Those other policing issues include fly-grazing, hare coursing, the theft of oil from farm businesses, and poaching. At the moment, our best estimate, based on statements—or semi-statements—in the public domain by chief constables or police and crime commissioners is that the cost over nine weeks in Somerset was £740,000, and it was just short of £2 million over the extended duration in Gloucestershire.

[Simon Hart]

In mentioning that he was not talking about whether there should be a badger cull, the shadow Minister made his point obliquely; but does he agree that the entire cost of policing the badger culls was for policing illegal harassment and activity by animal rights organisations? Should not that be the focus of our attention, and does not it support the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson) that if anything contributes to rural disillusionment it is the fact that rural people stand back and watch those things unfolding, while very little happens to deal with them? Perhaps there is now a good opportunity to deal with illegal harassment by animal rights activists, rather than to make an oblique point about the cull.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

My point about the cull is far from oblique, because I am focusing on the costs. Today is not the time to rehearse again the debate about whether the tool of culling is integral to the eradication of bovine TB. The costs issue is paramount: there is a real cost-benefit analysis to be done. If the figures that I have given, such as the £2 million spent in Gloucester, are correct, that will raise an issue. I hope that the Minister will tell us whether the figure is correct or in the right ballpark—perhaps he will say it is nothing like it and is way above the right figure. I agree that intimidation, bullying and harassment cannot be tolerated, but I hope that it is accepted that there is a role for legitimate protest in any sphere. There are regularly people protesting outside Parliament.

No one should condone illegitimate threats or intimidation from whatever angle they come, but my point is that if £2 million was spent in Gloucester, and if we are to continue the cull this summer in the reasonable expectation that those costs will continue, we cannot deny that that will mean a displacement of police activity, short of the Minister telling us he has found another £2 million to defray the costs. He may say so, and that would be fine—but let us hear it. At the moment we have no clarity about costs. I agree with all the points that have been made about stretched resources in rural areas, and if they are stretched even further in Gloucester and Somerset we should be honest with the public about the impact.

[Simon Hart]

I take the shadow Minister’s point, but does he concede that there would be no cost to legitimate, lawful, peaceful protest? The only cost is for dealing with illegal elements. Legitimate protest comes at zero cost.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Absolutely—theoretically the hon. Gentleman is right. In practice, we have seen the reality; immense policing costs are absorbed so that the culls can happen. That is my point—not debating the culls but asking the Minister directly what the costs were, and what they will be. It is right for the electorate in the affected areas to know that. The Government said that police and crime commissioners would bring transparency, and with such transparency the electorate could debate the priorities in their area. Alternatively, it would be possible to go cap in hand to the Minister to say, “Give us some more money, because this has taken a fair bit out of our area.”

A positive and constructive part of the debate has concerned collaboration. I welcome the establishment of the national rural crime network, which has brought together many partners across the UK, including at the last count 18 police and crime commissioners—with more, I understand, to come. That has happened with the assistance of, among others, the Rural Services Network—to which we should pay tribute—with the purpose of increasing collaboration and sharing best practice on rural crime, in the face of continuing acknowledged budgetary pressures.

Collaborative work on rural crime is also being done in Wales, and that includes the rural crime mapping scheme which my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South mentioned today and discussed at length in a previous debate. It is an excellent initiative, in which rural crime is electronically mapped and is highly visible to all partners, making it possible to identify and share information about what is happening and what to watch out for. I applaud my hon. Friend for raising awareness of that.

I was recently in Suffolk where a dedicated team of special constables has been established, focusing on particular aspects of crime on farms and in rural communities. There is some flexibility to determine local priorities and collaboration. Established schemes such as country watch, farm watch, horse watch and so on, go from success to success—so there is good practice. These are difficult times for policing, because of stretched budgets, but collaboration is one way forward. I would welcome the Minister’s response to my queries—particularly about his collaboration with DEFRA Ministers.

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I join other hon. Members in congratulating my near constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson), on securing the debate. His entirely reasonable final point was to request reassurance that the Government are aware of and sympathetic to people who fear rural crime. I can give him that assurance, not least because his constituency, as he described it, quite closely resembles mine—that is, it is mostly urban but has a huge rural area. I suspect that what he hears from farmers and others who live in villages in his constituency is exactly the same as what I hear.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[Damian Green]

I have barely started, but yes, of course.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the Minister for giving way so early. I forgot to ask about something, but I am sure that he can give me some clarification. The issue of liaison with Ministers from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is interesting. I understood that a DEFRA Minister was originally going to respond to this debate. I am sure that there is a good reason why that is no longer the case and why the Minister, who is very capable, is present instead. Nevertheless, will he explain? A DEFRA Minister would be able to respond on issues such as hare coursing, wildlife crime and so on. Having said that, I am sure that the Minister will be an able replacement.

[Damian Green]

The hon. Gentleman will observe that when discussing rural crime we can take either the first or the second word to decide which Department is responsible. The subject falls neatly between the two, and I will happily discuss with DEFRA Ministers the points raised today. I will also discuss his specific point about fly-grazing with Ministers from the Department for Communities and Local Government. He is correct to say that such issues inevitably fall between Departments, but one of the joys of government is ensuring that, just because something may affect more than one Department, it does not fall down a hole between two Departments.

I would like to put the debate into some kind of perspective. I was grateful to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey say that he accepted the context in which police funding is now operating. He was right to do so. When we came into office in May 2010, we inherited the largest peacetime deficit in history. Borrowing increased to unprecedented levels under the previous Government, without due consideration for the long-term economic health of the country. We are proud of the progress we have made in addressing this most fundamental of issues.

Borrowing as a percentage of GDP is down by a third, our economy is growing and unemployment is falling. However, we cannot rest there, because although we have made strong inroads into arresting the deficit, more must be done. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced earlier this year that further cuts will be required into the next Parliament. That will mean that difficult decisions will have to be made, and we should not shy away from that.

Despite all that, we have pushed to secure the best possible deal for the police and protected them again for 2014-15, this time from the further cuts to departmental budgets announced in December’s autumn statement. Central Government funding for the police will be reduced by 3.3% in cash terms in 2014-15, while overall funding will be reduced by even less, once the future police precept is factored in. We have also protected funding for counter-terrorism policing, owing to the ongoing threat of terrorism. By way of comparison with that 3.3%, the remaining Home Office budget will be cut by 7% in cash terms in 2014-15.

That was the overall context. I now turn specifically to Kent, because many of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey were about God’s own county. I know that the funding settlement is challenging, but it is manageable. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has made it clear that the proportion of officers on the front line is increasing, and we are supporting the police through a range of activities to help them to respond to the challenge and ultimately emerge stronger. I appreciate that funding reductions have meant that all forces have had to consider where savings need to be made in terms of officers and staff numbers, but, ultimately, decisions on the size and composition of the police work force are for the individual chief officers and police and crime commissioners.

Of course, Kent has particular rural policing challenges and the crime sets are different from those in other parts of the country. However, the police allocation formula, which distributes the majority of funding to the police, takes account of local circumstances to address the specific needs faced by rural forces. The point about specific needs has been made several times during the debate, and I am happy to assure the House that the formula is designed to recognise the extra difficulties caused by sparsity.

I also recognise the importance of ensuring that we update the formula to reflect the needs of modern policing. That is why the Government are currently conducting a fundamental review of how funding is allocated among police force areas. It will focus on the current police allocation formula and the process of damping, as well as looking at the funding landscape as a whole. Determining how funding should be allocated to the police in future is a complex and important matter that will require careful consideration and take time. It will not be completed before 2016, but the first phase of the work, an internal analytical review, is already under way. Obviously, we will consult the full range of partners at an appropriate point in the development of that work.

I should emphasise that how the money is spent by the forces and police and crime commissioners is at least as important as the amount that they have to spend. PCCs are key; my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey expressed his view about Kent PCC’s priorities in fighting rural crime.

Obviously, we can also do things at the national level to help the police to deal with rural crime. One of them is the police innovation fund, which is worth up to £50 million a year and represents a new step to incentivise innovation and collaboration, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). I agree with him that it is an important way for forces, perhaps those in rural areas in particular, to become more efficient. The fund will also incentivise digitisation to drive efficiencies and improve policing over the long term.

There is already a £20 million precursor fund, which received 115 bids covering a wide range of activity. Indeed, Kent and Essex police were successful in a joint bid, showing that collaboration is alive and well in Kent. They will receive £440,000 from the precursor innovation fund to support their joint visual media evidence and investigation programme. That will allow video evidence to be captured at, for example, a public order event such as illegal hare coursing. That could quickly be made available to investigators and analysed using a range of innovative software techniques, enabling officers to focus in on offenders and increase the chance of successful prosecutions. I am well aware of the point, made by several Members, that thinking that a crime will lead to a successful prosecution is important. As I said, there is a £50 million fund for 2014-15, and I urge forces that feel they have a particular issue with rural crime to put together some good bids to the fund.

Against the background of the fund and the debate more widely, it is important to remember that crime is falling and police reforms are working. Overall crime has fallen under this Government by more than 10%, according to the crime survey for England and Wales, and that is mirrored by the fall in police-recorded crime. Nevertheless, I accept the fact that we must keep pace with the way crime, including rural crime, is changing.

The point has been made that much of what is regarded almost as traditional rural crime is now actually run by organised criminal gangs, and people must be reassured that the Government are treating it as such. The need to combat organised criminal gangs is precisely why we have set up the National Crime Agency, which allows us, for the first time, to tackle the growing threat of serious and organised criminality. It has been in full operation since October, and is already making inroads into criminal gangs. Some of the people who will benefit from that are those living in rural areas who are suffering from the effects of organised criminality in their neighbourhoods.

I turn to crime in rural areas specifically, rather than the general crime statistics. DEFRA’s statistical digest, based on data from police-recorded crime, shows that the average rates of all crime types for rural local authority areas are lower than for urban local authority areas. I think that that is intuitively what people would expect. The percentage decrease in crime over the past six years in rural areas is roughly on a par with the reduction rate in urban areas. The notion that urban crime is coming down because it is being displaced to rural areas, and therefore rural crime is going up, is simply wrong. Crime is going down in both areas, although I take the point about the potential for displacement.

Although crime rates in rural areas tend to be relatively low, rural communities should be able to know what crime looks like in their area and to hold someone to account for doing something about it. I echo the point made by both my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) and the hon. Member for Ogmore: people need to report crime. It is in their own interests not to say, “It is not worth reporting it.” Inevitably, police chiefs will concentrate their resources on where they think they will have the most effect in fighting crime. If crime is not reported, an area may well appear more peaceful than its residents think it is.

As I said, people need someone to hold to account for doing something about crime, which is precisely why we have shifted power to local communities through locally elected police and crime commissioners. I am grateful that, since they have come into operation, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury has been converted to the virtue of having that local accountability mechanism. I know that he has seen benefits for his constituents in the initiatives put forward by the police and crime commissioner for the Thames valley, Anthony Stansfeld. I also agree with my hon. Friend’s remarks about target hardening in rural areas for particular types of crime, often committed against farmers who have valuable machinery on their premises. We need to do exactly that.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Rather than talking about the overall levels of reported crime, hon. Members were saying that specific crimes, such as the theft of fuel oil, metals or plant and machinery, are easily displaced to rural areas. Will the Minister tell us whether he has any figures to say that those crimes are not increasing? Certainly, the National Farmers Union, the Country Land and Business Association and others will say that they are increasing significantly—to the extent that fuel theft went up by 166% in one year. That is disproportionately within rural areas.

[Damian Green]

The figures I was citing from the DEFRA digest were, of course, aggregate figures. Within those figures, individual crime types go up for a number of reasons—not just in rural areas, but generally. Sometimes, the crime rate goes up because it is being better reported, as people think that it is worth doing something about it.

Perhaps now is a convenient time to deal with metal theft, as that is one of the points that the hon. Gentleman asked about. We recognise that it has a huge impact on communities, which is why we have taken a number of actions. We have increased the financial penalties and banned cash payments. We have supported targeted enforcement through the Government-funded national metal theft task force, which has led to a fall in metal theft. The Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013 further tightened the net around rogue dealers who flout rules. The task force is funded until September 2014. We have spent £5 million supporting it to give sufficient time for the reforms to become well established.

The statistics show that there has been a decline in metal theft in each quarter of 2012-13. There was a 40% fall between April-June 2012 and January-March 2013. I hope that the hon. Gentleman and others can take that as some reassurance that effective action can lead to falls in crimes that are often concentrated in rural areas.

Another important point is greater information and transparency. We have the police and crime commissioners who hold the forces to account, but the public need to be able, in an informed way, to hold PCCs to account and decide whether to re-elect them. That is why we are providing more local information about crime and what the police have done in response to it. That information is regularly updated on police.uk, the national crime and policing web portal, which provides the public, including those who live in rural communities, with local information about crime and antisocial behaviour. On police.uk, the information is presented clearly and concisely, allowing the public to access it in a useful way.

Hon. Members on both sides have made the point that some PCCs have prioritised rural crime, which is, of course, evidence of the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury—that having elected local officials means that they have to reflect what local people want. If they are representing an area with a significant rural population, it would be sensible for them to reflect that, and several of them have. For example, in north Wales the PCC has put in place a rural crime plan, which focuses on engaging with the rural community and addressing their concerns, including theft of equipment and livestock from rural areas. The force is providing a presence at farmers’ markets, and a rural crime team has been created.

As has already been mentioned, the PCC in Suffolk has introduced a dedicated team of special constables, which seems to be the sort of innovative response that we would all welcome. Similarly, we have already heard about the PCC in the Thames valley and the introduction of the Country Watch messaging system, which I am glad to hear from my hon. Friend is proving effective.

A lot is happening at the local level, but a lot is also happening at the national level. We have the UK national wildlife crime unit, a police unit that assists in the prevention and detection of wildlife crime by obtaining and disseminating intelligence from a wide range of organisations. It directly assists law enforcement agencies in investigating wildlife crime. Some of its priorities relate to international crime and the enforcement of the convention on international trade in endangered species, but other priorities are some of the things that we have been discussing today—including poaching, which is one of the specific priorities of the unit.

The unit is jointly funded; this goes back to the point that I made to the hon. Member for Ogmore at the start. The Home Office provides some funding for the NWCU and will continue to throughout the period of the spending settlement. DEFRA provides the same amount of funding for the unit over the next two years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that tribute to the unit, of which I know he has much experience. As I said, it is an example of a particular problem not being allowed to fall between Departments. We have two Departments here working to support the unit.

As has also been mentioned, at the national level a rural crime network has been set up to tackle countryside crime. So far, it has been endorsed by 18 police and crime commissioners. It is good to see PCCs in rural areas coming together in that way. The idea originated with the Rural Services Network, a not-for-profit organisation that represents a diverse range of rural service providers in the public, private and voluntary sectors.

The PCCs have convened a good group—not just the network itself, but Farmers Weekly, the national community safety network, an online crime reporting system called Facewatch, the CLA and other rural stakeholders. One of the best things the network does is to ensure that best practice is shared, so that things can be co-ordinated and sustained effectively. The network wants to provide an online resource for the police, community safety practitioners and others precisely to share information, training and development, access to case studies and so on.

Altogether, the network is one of the more exciting developments, which will enable things to happen at a national level, although it is absolutely locally based and based on real world experiences. All those involved will be able to learn from one another and to work collaboratively on new ideas and solutions that will benefit local people.

There is clearly a lot that can be done with technology. I am delighted to see that the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) has come to this debate. She will remember that on 5 March I paid tribute to her constituents who have gathered information to provide the digital map that, as she explained earlier, is helping North Wales police to tackle rural crime in their local area. Her presence in Westminster Hall today allows me to pay that tribute once again. It is a good initiative and I am glad that the information is available; it can be accessed through a tablet, which will help the police get to grips with situations in real time. Again, that is an example of how something developed as a good idea at a local level can become a piece of best practice that is spread and can have a national effect.

Before I conclude, I will mention a group of people who have not been mentioned much—police community support officers. PCSOs play a huge part in effective neighbourhood policing. They provide a highly visible presence within communities and an invaluable link between the police and the communities they serve, with their focus on understanding and identifying local priorities over a long period, as well as on solving local problems, solving low-level crime and engaging with the community.

We need only to look at those aspects of the core PCSO work to see how relevant they are to rural communities. My hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey said that people want more visible policing. It is inevitable that in sparsely populated areas people are less likely to see a police officer than if they are in an urban area; common sense would suggest that. Precisely because they have a smaller area to cover and they will not be hauled off somewhere else for response duties, and because they are often in post in a particular area for longer than police officers, PCSOs can develop that network of relationships in a rural area that not only does good things by itself but helps to promote confidence among people that there is somebody they can go to whom they know and who represents the forces of law and order.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[Damian Green]

I was about to talk to the hon. Gentleman about badger culls, but I will give way first.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I welcome the warm praise that the Minister has just given PCSOs. Back in the year dot, I sat on the long 13-week Committee that brought PCSOs into existence and I see now the massive change in the Minister’s party: it originally opposed PCSOs, but now supports them. That is hugely welcome, because PCSOs are a great asset.

In the seven minutes remaining—it is great when we have lots of time for a Minister to respond to a debate—can the Minister give us some of the details about the cost of the badger culls? Also, has he considered the extension of the fly-grazing legislation to England?

[Damian Green]

I shall repeat what I said earlier—perhaps I was not clear enough before—but I will happily take away the point about fly-grazing and I will discuss it with DEFRA Ministers. The hon. Gentleman will accept that this issue clearly requires input from a range of Departments, and I am happy to seek that input. Let me take this opportunity to deal with a number of issues; I will tease the hon. Gentleman by coming to the issue of badger culls last.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the process to stop stolen animals from entering the food chain. On 1 April, DEFRA launched the animal reporting and movement service, a new digital system to record and trace sheep movements. It gives farmers the option to report electronically. All markets and abattoirs are connected to the system, so anybody who has suspicions now has an easy and painless way to report them.

On the issue of badger culls, the policing costs are £2.3 million in Gloucestershire, £446,000 in West Mercia and £739,000 in Avon and Somerset. Those are indicative costs. We are yet to receive the report from Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary that reviews the resources deployed in respect of the badger culls; that report will obviously give the final figure. I should add that DEFRA has agreed to pay all the additional policing costs.

I hope that that answers the hon. Gentleman’s question.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the Minister for that response; it is great to have it accurately now on the record. Can he tell us whether those costs are for the year just gone, and does he have the costs for the year ahead? Based on the Government’s decision last week, the two culls in Gloucester and Somerset will continue for the year ahead. Does he have an estimated figure for the costs in the year ahead?

[Damian Green]

I do not, for the very good reason that we cannot possibly know what the policing requirements will be. The hon. Gentleman had an instructive exchange with my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) about the difference between peaceful protest, which we all recognise is acceptable, and illegal protest and obstruction. Clearly, the amount of extra policing cost is intimately related to the amount of illegality that may go on, so assessing costs in the future would simply be guesswork. I do not think it would be sensible for me to do that. However, those are the costs.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Is the Minister telling me that even though these costs are being met from DEFRA’s budget, DEFRA has made no estimate within its budget allocations for policing in the future? Surely not.

[Damian Green]

I am sure that DEFRA Ministers and officials are doing all that is necessary. I am just saying that it would be foolish if the hon. Gentleman tried to tie me down to detailed figures now, because until we make an assessment of the likely level of criminality it is impossible to make an assessment of the likely amount of police activity. I am sure that he recognises that.

In general, I hope that I have been able to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey and others that, first, the Government attach huge importance to issues relating to policing crime in rural areas and that, in particular, we have taken a number of actions at national level that we can see are having beneficial effects. On top of that, the introduction of PCCs has meant that a new raft of innovative ideas are being introduced all over the country, and therefore being shared all over the country, in ways that will further benefit people who live in rural communities and who have as much right as people who live in urban areas to expect a decent police presence, decent policing and decent anti-crime activities.

What we see from all this activity is that the PCCs and the forces are bringing innovative ideas into reality, and they are creating modern forces that can meet, in particular, the ever-changing demands of modern policing. When people think of modern crime, they tend to think of online crime, fraud and so on, but the debate has been instructive in pointing out that the crimes that people who live in rural areas are facing are also changing. Consequently the police response and the response of the wider public need to change too, in aspects such as target-hardening. The point that fighting crime is, in a sense, the responsibility of all citizens—although we give specific powers to the police, PCSOs and other crimefighters to lead the charge—is a good one. We all have responsibilities.

I return to the first point made about the funding settlement. Of course that creates challenges for PCCs and forces, but those who are prepared to innovate, collaborate, transform their forces and use new technology to drive efficiencies will find that it is possible not only to beat their budgets but to police more effectively than before. I absolutely believe that that is as true in rural areas as it is anywhere else. There are many ways in which rural policing is improving and can continue to improve, so the fact that, as the crime survey shows, our streets are safer than ever—[Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It is important to say that my concern has always been about the Court, not the convention. As I have said to my hon. Friend in the past, anyone who reads the terms of the convention would find it to be a document that we would all agree with. The problem is the way in which it is being interpreted, which, in my view, has moved a long way away from the intentions of the people who drafted it in the first place.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

This Government’s position on, and attitude to, Strasbourg was recently cited in Ukraine as a reason in defence of opposing one of the recommendations of the Court. Does the Secretary of State recognise that withdrawal from the Court would have implications for millions of people beyond our boundaries and beyond our nation?

[Chris Grayling]

The key point that the hon. Gentleman must understand is that we can be, and will continue to be, a beacon of propriety as regards human rights in the world, but that that does not mean that we have to continue to accept a jurisprudence that is treading on territory that rightly belongs to this Parliament. In my view, this Parliament needs to address that issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Wright]

We will certainly look at that. May I say that it has been particularly helpful to receive submissions on the matter from my hon. Friend, who has been closely engaged in arguing on behalf of his constituents? Of course, if a suitable alternative venue can be found, we will co-operate with that.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm that last Friday the prison capacity was running at 99.2%? Will he further confirm that over Christmas and into the new year, no police cells or custodial cells in courts will be used to supply the overfill?

[Chris Grayling]

The Opposition are desperate to find a crisis in our prisons. I can absolutely confirm that we are nowhere near the situation that they were in when they were in office, when they had to use police cells. We have plenty of capacity in our prison system and plenty of reserves that we can draw upon, and last week the prison population came down.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Reed]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I have read the comments that he made in Committee and sympathise with his views. I hope to address them further in my comments.

The Opposition supported increasing the guideline prison terms for manslaughter under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 in Committee. We continue to support an increase, although we would prefer to have the consultation response before the House so that an informed decision can be made. Our starting point is that the current maximum sentence of two years’ imprisonment for allowing one’s dog to kill someone is far too lenient. I hope that the hon. Member for Bedford will accept our support in principle for toughening the sentencing guidelines and work with us in the other place to agree on appropriate sentencing guidelines, informed by the consultation response when the Government get around to publishing it.

New clause 3 would introduce dog control notices. I believe that this measure enjoys widespread cross-party support in the House and near-unanimous support from outside organisations with an interest in dangerous dogs and animal welfare. When reading the Committee transcripts, I was struck by the strength of support from Government Back Benchers, in addition to the support from Labour Members. However, that should not be surprising. Taking responsible, tough action to protect people from dangerous dogs and irresponsible dog owners is plain common sense and something that Members on all sides of the House should support.

Yesterday, I joined my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) to meet the father of Jade Anderson, who was savaged to death by four dogs when she was just 14 years old. Michael Anderson and his friend Royston had cycled down from Bolton in support of the Justice for Jade campaign. They came to lobby Members of this House because they want dog control notices to be introduced in England and Wales, as they have been in Scotland. To lose a child is bad enough; to live with the knowledge of the appalling circumstances in which they died is almost too much to bear. I can offer Mr Anderson only my support, sympathy and admiration that he is seeking to make something good out of such desperate and tragic circumstances.

Sadly, Jade’s case is not an isolated one. Since 2005, nine children and seven adults have died as a consequence of dog attacks. In the three years to February 2013, 18,000 people were admitted to hospital in England and Wales after dog attacks. That is almost 20 attacks a day that result in someone ending up in hospital. Not only could many of those attacks be prevented by dog control notices, but the cost of those attacks to the NHS, the police and communities is an avoidable drain on already overstretched resources.

Dog control notices are not punitive. They provide a menu of options that local authorities and the police can use to act in the interests of their local communities against dangerous dogs and irresponsible owners.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I commend my hon. Friend and those who tabled new clause 3, which would improve the Bill. May I also commend to him and other hon. Members new clause 17, which was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith)? It would dovetail nicely with new clause 3 and would allow the notices to be published there and then at the point when they are needed, rather than waiting for an attack to take place.

[Mr Reed]

I thank my hon. Friend, who has an abiding interest in this issue, for that most helpful intervention. I will seek to address his point further in my comments.

Dog control notices include the following measures: requiring a potentially dangerous dog to be muzzled whenever it is in a public place; requiring it to be kept on a lead in places to which the public have access; neutering male dogs; and requiring dogs and dog owners to attend training classes to bring potentially dangerous animals back under control. A dog control notice would also require the dog to be microchipped and registered, so that any dogs that were found to be in breach could be identified clearly and unambiguously—something that is absolutely necessary for effective enforcement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Reed]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting that sensible view on the record. Of course, I am sympathetic to it. Indeed, I will add another sensible view, that of the chief executive of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, who said:

“We remain unconvinced that CPNs will fulfil the same purpose as bespoke Dog Control Notices.”

I could go on to read the evidence to the Bill Committee of organisation after organisation: the Kennel Club, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, police and crime commissioners, the Local Government Association and the Association of Chief Police Officers. Although that would support my argument, I fear that a lengthy recitation would weary the House. However, two further sources of support for dog control notices are worth drawing to the House’s attention.

First, the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) helpfully drew the Bill Committee’s attention to the fact that before the general election, the Conservative party pledged to give police and councils more power to tackle the problem of dangerous dogs through the introduction of dog control notices. As it happens, the same is true of the Liberal Democrats, who also supported such notices when in opposition. We are used to the policies of one or other Government party being lost in coalition fudges, but I am not aware of a policy supported by both parties being lost in such a way. On this occasion, not only do I agree with Nick, but I am willing to agree with Dave as well. If we all agree, for goodness’ sake let us act and bring in long-overdue and much-needed tough but fair measures to deal with dangerous dogs. Six thousand hospitalisations a year is too many simply to look the other way. I would challenge any Member to sit down with Michael Anderson, Jade’s father, as I did yesterday, and not conclude that the measures that we suggest must be on the statute book.

I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West, who is in her place, for tabling new clause 6, which is similar to new clause 3 in many ways. It highlights her commitment to bringing her constituency issues to the House in the most powerful way possible.

New clauses 17, 29 and 30, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), were mentioned earlier. They include a number of further sensible and proportionate measures to deal with dangerous dogs, and I am sure that Members of the other place will want to study them carefully in their less time-pressured environment and take up many of them.

I must push the Minister to accept new clause 3. To date, the Bill has been a missed opportunity for the Government. The need for tougher action is clear and well evidenced, and the desire to act has been endorsed not just by the parties of government before the last election but by the cross-party Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and by every major organisation that deals with dangerous dogs, animal welfare and irresponsible owners. The means to act are now before the Minister, and I urge him to take the chance to do so.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

In the many months since the Government brought forward their provisional proposals, they have failed to persuade any of those good and sensible people and organisations of their case. Those are not stupid organisations and people, and I urge Members to support them and support new clause 3.

[Mr Reed]

We wait with bated breath to see whether the new Minister has now been convinced.

Oral Answers to Questions

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am happy to visit my hon. Friend, his constituency and the charity concerned. I can confirm that it is our intention that almost all prisoners will be released from resettlement prisons, so that we can provide a proper through the gate service.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman join me in praising the work of the excellent team at Parc prison on the edge of my constituency where many of my constituents work? They do tremendous work with young offenders serving a custodial sentence, re-entering normal life and entering work. Can he explain why his Department at one time sought to abolish the Youth Justice Board?

[Chris Grayling]

Let me pay tribute to the team at Parc, who do a first-rate job. I have been there myself. There is no and has never been any intention to abolish the functions of the Youth Justice Board. It has been a question purely of what the best corporate structure is for it.

Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. Pre-legislative scrutiny is a part of the legislative process that is now supported strongly on both sides of the House. It has been used on many occasions for other Bills. In the case of a Bill as controversial and with as many permutations as this one, I shall make it very clear to the Court that this is the start of a parliamentary process and an important part of the response to what it has asked us to do.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Many people will accept that prisoners serving custodial sentences rightly surrender many of their civil and social privileges and rights. What does the Secretary of State think about the proposal that one determining factor on reinstating any of those rights to vote should be proximity to the end of a sentence?

[Chris Grayling]

There is a perfectly coherent argument to be made by those who believe that, and it is undoubtedly one of the areas I expect to be discussed by the consultative Committee. I should also say that I would expect the different Select Committees with an involvement in this area to want to contribute to the process, too. I have no doubt that what the hon. Gentleman has just described will be one of the options discussed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Djanogly]

Yes, and they are. So far as I know, no magistrates have been forced to resign because of any court closure. They are normally encouraged to join the successor court, although some take the opportunity to resign at that point for their own reasons.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will no doubt share my respect for those who carry out pro bono work, which makes a big impact in my communities and throughout the UK. What does he make of the assertion that cutbacks are going to have to be made in pro bono services because of the cuts to overall provision?

[Mr Djanogly]

I do not see any reason why that should be the case.

Oral Answers to Questions

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clarke]

We are reviewing it, although we have no immediate intentions that we are withholding. We are looking across the whole field of the Department, and we will reduce the number of so-called arm’s length bodies, quangos and agencies. The Office of the Public Guardian carries out quite an important function, however, so I do not think that we will make any changes there unless we are quite confident that its key responsibilities can be properly discharged.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The annual report on Parc prison by the independent monitoring board singled out the work of the Prince’s Trust and the excellent staff in the young persons unit for particular praise, which I am sure that Front Benchers will join me in echoing. Every time that we ask for continued investment in such units—the report said that the unit needed more investment—we hear that there is no money, so if the Secretary of State is going to use that excuse, how will the big society ensure that we have less reoffending when these young people come out of jail?

[Mr Clarke]

We will produce positive policies on criminal justice, prison reform and the rehabilitation of offenders, but we have to do that on the basis of a realistic appraisal of the current state of the economy. We have inherited the worst financial and fiscal crisis of modern times. We have succeeded a Government who simply borrowed ever more money and who threw money at every problem, often with a considerable lack of success for public protection. I endorse what the hon. Gentleman says about the work of the Prince’s Trust and others throughout our Prison Service, but he will have to find a positive contribution to policy making, rather than saying just, “Let’s borrow and spend more public money,” because that is ruled out for the immediate future.