HGV Road User Levy Bill (Ways and Means)

Huw Irranca-Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I am delighted to support this excellent initiative. Of course, the policy was a commitment of ours at the last election and it is always a joy to stand in the Chamber and deliver on a manifesto promise. I know that it is supported on both sides of the House and was in other parties’ manifestos, too.

We must do more to support the sector across the UK. In the area I represent, logistics and transport are important and employ many people. We have many hauliers locally and I know that they will welcome the Bill. The initiative is good news not only for hauliers and people who work in the industry, but, I hope, for residents in my area. I hope that the Minister will announce how the money will be spent. I represent the port of Goole and most of the arterial routes into the ports of Hull, Immingham and Grimsby and our roads are often well-used by HGVs, which cause considerable damage. We get a lot of complaints from residents about HGVs, so let us hope that once the money has been raised it will be invested back into our road networks, particularly in Brigg and Goole. I do not yet see the Minister nodding but I am sure he will confirm that later.

There is a question of fairness as British hauliers who go to Europe have to pay tolls, which are not levied on any great scale in this country. It is only right that foreign vehicles operating here should pay to use our roads.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way so soon. He is making a very good speech and he is right to say that the initiative has broad support on both sides of the House, including in my constituency, where hauliers serve Tata Steel, Rockwool Ltd and others. The Minister is introducing a complex little device, so will the hon. Gentleman urge him to think again? Some UK hauliers of certain types and sizes might lose out, or might at least not gain all the benefits that the Minister has intended, so he might want to take some time to reconsider and tie up all the little loopholes.

[Andrew Percy]

I feel that I have been a conduit for the hon. Gentleman’s contribution to the debate, which is, I think, addressed specifically to the Minister. It is a joy to have been that conduit. The hon. Gentleman has made an important point and I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Minister will respond to it.

I was talking about the importance of the sector to the Humber, and it is good to see my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), in his place. As we jointly represent the steel works, he will be able to confirm the importance of the sector to our area and the fact that it will see a great deal of growth over the next few months. I am never one to miss an opportunity to promote a good local news story, and in my constituency a studio school is about to be established with a specific focus on the logistics sector. Those involved will be delighted to know that our UK haulage industry will receive a shot in the arm from the proposal.

Of course, we had other good news locally on the Humber bridge tolls not so long ago. I will not miss the opportunity to promote another good news story, and I am sure that the Minister, whose Department was so involved in that decision, will be delighted to know that since the Government provided £150 million to halve those tolls, the most recent figures on road use across the Humber bridge have shown an 8% increase. That greatly exceeds expectations. Hauliers report that they can now use that bridge to get their goods to the other side of the Humber divide.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andrew Percy]

I will, and I look forward to being a conduit for the hon. Gentleman yet again.

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[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be not only a joyful conduit but a joyful supporter of my argument. He makes a valid point about tolls and I welcome his comments about the absence of tolls in his area. The Severn bridge toll, which is paid on the way into Wales but not on the way out, is a significant drain on the south Wales economy. Does he support those of us who have been campaigning for years to get rid of it?

[Andrew Percy]

I am afraid I am not an expert on south Wales, having only visited once, but the hon. Gentleman has made his point. In the Humber region, people pay to travel in both directions, so we do not have any argument about whether people pay to get in and out of Yorkshire, whereas a debate does take place between Wales and England. I shall avoid stepping into any debate about local issues in south Wales. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will understand.

The Minister will know that although this provision is welcome, the sector faces considerable challenges. I meet representatives of the sector regularly, and only this summer I was chatting to a local haulage firm at the Ousefleet show. The continuing challenges faced by the sector, particularly in the light of rising fuel costs, were explained to me. I know that the sector will support this measure, however.

It is something of a sadness that we must take this approach, however, and it demonstrates the all-encompassing grasp of the European Union—I cannot miss the opportunity to have a bit of a bash at the EU—that we must follow such a convoluted route, creating a scheme that applies to our hauliers and then providing them with a rebate through VED. That shows how we have lost control of our destiny in this country. We should be able to support our hauliers directly if we want to, and we should be proud to say that.

I do not want to say a great deal more on this, although I think that I have spoken longer than the Minister did—not longer than the shadow Minister, I have to say—but I look forward to contributing again on this subject in the future. I have just two questions for the Minister, one of which I have already asked, but I will pose it again. What will happen to the money that is raised from this? Where will it be spent? Both geographically and within Government Departments, where can we expect that funding to be spent? Will the Minister also confirm that we seem to have an increasing number of vehicles that are dual-registered? Has any assessment been made of whether the measure will result in more or less dual registration? With those few comments, I will end by saying that I welcome this decision and look forward to the Government’s making progress with the matter.

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[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I am delighted to speak on behalf of hauliers not only from my constituency and nearby Bridgend, but throughout south Wales. People often forget that the M4 corridor in south Wales is still one of the greatest manufacturing hubs in the nation of Wales, and probably the United Kingdom. There is a wide variety, ranging from the very modern heavy manufacturing—I was tempted to say the very old—of Tata Steel, whose investment sustains many jobs for local hauliers, to Rockwool, the green insulation company in Heol-y-Cyw in my constituency. There are many other manufacturers—for example, in life sciences—and they all use various types of road haulage, sustaining jobs in the south Wales economy.

I echo the sentiments of the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng). The measure is broadly welcomed by all on the green Benches. Resolving the matter has not been unduly complex, given that we are dealing with the interpretation of European legislation in the UK, and the Minister is to be commended for bringing forward proposals. I hope to ask a number of constructive questions, both as someone speaking up for hauliers in my area and as a keen cyclist on the roads of London and in south Wales—the Minister will know where I am heading when I say that.

I commend the work of members of the Transport Committee, in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman). She mentioned the number of reports that the Committee has turned out on issues pertinent to the measure, including most recently a report on foreign hauliers in the UK and how we get the level playing field that everyone wants. The Committee has also examined road charging and freight transport.

In a genuinely constructive way, may I ask the Minister to turn in his response to those who may fall outside the mechanism? I appreciate the complexity and difficulty of trying to devise the right mechanism, but my understanding—the Minister can correct me if I am wrong—is that as many as 15,000 smaller, greener, lighter haulage vehicles may not benefit from the provisions; for example, in Pencoed in my patch, there is a light haulier who may fall entirely outside the measure. If those 15,000 represent 5% or 6% of the whole UK fleet, they are a significant minority, and I suspect they may look with envy at the large hauliers who deal with Tata Steel in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis) or with Rockwool in Heol-y-Cyw in my patch. Is there something more the Minister can do to help the small hauliers? They face the same problems and challenges. He may reply that the Government have looked at every possible avenue and it cannot be done, in which case perhaps he could explain why.

Hauliers in my area are specifically asking for clarity about the new levels of vehicle excise duty. I think the Minister is likely to respond by saying, “That’s beyond my payroll. You’re going to have to wait for the Budget.”

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

indicated assent.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The Minister is already nodding. I am slightly disappointed, because hauliers want an assurance that under the provisions VED will be cut proportionately to the levy and that they will actually benefit. I have been in the same situation as the Minister, and it would be great if he could assure them that come what may, there will be proportionality and that people will gain, or at least not lose out.

The measure is all about creating a level playing field with our European counterparts, because we have been disadvantaged. Can the Minister give us an assurance that UK hauliers will not lose out? If many will gain, but some will unfortunately lose out compared with others, can he tell us why that is and who they may be? I suspect I may have difficult messages for some of the hauliers in my patch who assume they will all be winners under the mechanism.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point about the message we need to deliver to our constituents. Does he recognise though that it should not be about the UK being a winner, but making sure that we get money from foreign users? That is the key point.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. It is not a case of us being winners. I think the hon. Member for Spelthorne slightly misspoke earlier when he talked about putting protection in place. As the hon. Lady says, it is not to do with protection for us, but with creating a level playing field. I am sure the hon. Gentleman did not intend to suggest that we want fortress mechanisms; it is about getting a level playing field.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

As an attentive observer of and participant in our debates, the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that in my speech I suggested that foreign operators should contribute to their use of the roads. That is the best argument in favour of the legislation.

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[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I could not agree more; the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) make very good points.

On the issue of a level playing field, can the Minister give us clarity on when the start date will be? What is his best guess at the moment as to when the scheme will be introduced for hauliers not based in the UK? I suspect that this is a complex issue, but while I welcome the provision, it would be great if we could have the same date right across the board. If we cannot, why not, and can he give clarity on why not? There are worries that the date may be six months or a year afterwards, or—heaven help us—after the end of this Parliament; at least in this Parliament we know when that will be. Can the Minister give us an assurance that the measure will at least be in place before then? In fact, more accurately, could he tell us when it will be in place? All of us speak to haulage associations in our area; it would be great to get that accuracy for them.

I have a question for the Minister, for whom I am fearful. When I was a Minister, I was frequently told by officials, “Don’t do that, Minister; you could well be open to European challenge.” Sometimes, I would get a risk assessment put in front of me saying, “Actually, it is worth the risk—go ahead.” Has the Minister had those discussions with the Commission, and even if his officials are not happy, is he confident that the decision to have different charging levels for UK and non-UK-based heavy goods vehicles, because of the issues to do with daily, weekly and monthly rates being applied differently and being available differently, will not in any way be challenged on the grounds that it is discriminatory? I hope it will not, but I seek clarity and confidence from him on that point.

My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), in his splendid opening speech, touched on issues relating to how the measure will be enforced. If I may drive home that point, there are some concerns from hauliers in my area that it may be more difficult to enforce the mechanism that the Minister is bringing forward now that his Government have opted out of the EU directive on cross-border enforcement. I would have thought that that would have been a highly useful mechanism through which to ensure that the measure is in place across the UK and elsewhere. In bringing forward this mechanism, has he had a risk assessment done that says that that does not increase the risk of non-enforcement?

I am genuinely not making a political point, but we know that some of the enforcement will be done by our police. I know that the Minister will say that the issue is not police numbers, but how and where we deploy them, but we face a cut of thousands of officers—I think the current running total is a cut of about 15,000 police officers by 2015. Put that on top of the fact that we are opting out of the EU directive on cross-border agreement and I worry a little, even if the Minister does not, about how we will enforce the measure properly, so that we see a level playing field in practice, as well as on parliamentary paper.

Finally, I turn to an issue that I mentioned at the beginning of my speech. I am a very keen cyclist, and a member of Sustrans—I do not know whether I have to declare that as an interest. My family and I cycle extensively, including in London, where hauliers hoot their horns and yell at me, “What the hell are you doing cycling on the roads in London?”. It amazes me; I have every bit as much of a right to use the roads as they do. There are extremely responsible hauliers and drivers out there, but we know how many injuries and fatalities there are. The Labour party has believed for some time that some of the benefit from the mechanism that the Minister is introducing—some of the levy—should be put towards working with the industry, rather than mandating them, to try to roll out technologically advanced measures that allow hauliers to see pedestrians and cyclists at the side of their vehicle. That would be a major step forward. Too often, around the streets of London and elsewhere, we see sites where there have been inadvertent collisions between soft cyclists and hard vehicles, marked by so-called ghost cycles—bicycles painted white and attached to railings in memory of someone who has lost their life. It would be very welcome if we looked at that.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

I want to support the very important points that my hon. Friend makes. I witnessed a cyclist being crushed by a lorry, and am sitting in on the coroner’s investigation; the sort of practical suggestions that he makes would be welcomed by cyclists and their families.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I think that I can understand the Government’s opposition; they do not want to put undue burdens on the haulage industry, which, now as always, is suffering stress. I suggest that the Government should not have a closed mind on the subject, but should be open to the idea that, working with the industry, we could roll the technology out over time—and not a long period of time, either. Hauliers frequently renew their fleets; as fleets are renewed, we can roll the technology out. What we are talking about is eliminating blind spots. In London, one sees cyclists in the established blue cycle lanes; someone driving a lorry cannot see the fact that as they turn left, they veer right across that blue lane. Unfortunately, as my hon. Friend says, occasionally they injure a cyclist badly, or even cause a fatality. The technology is there, and there are not massive costs. I think that we could roll it out as fleets renew.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. To reinforce his point, some companies have done sterling work in advancing the technology that he mentions. I know that the Minister is familiar with Cemex; after one of its drivers was involved in a fatality, it pioneered technology that it uses in the warning and alarm systems in its cement vehicles. It is doing everything that it can to prevent a recurrence of such an incident. Some in the industry are working hard to achieve aims that the whole House would support.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I should just correct my hon. Friend: I am not right hon. The Transport Committee Chair kindly promoted me. The Minister may want to put a word in for me, but I am not right hon.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

As a full-time politician, I am more than happy to over-inflate anybody’s ego at any moment, but I will certainly put a word in for my hon. Friend, right as he was in his point. Rolling out improvements through fleet modernisation would create jobs in the UK relating to the manufacture and installation of those technologies. It is a win-win.

That is not my main point. My main point is that I welcome the Bill, but the Minister could do more, by tweaking and refining it, to make sure that there are not people who lose out while others gain from a level playing field; in so doing, he could take the opportunity to think bike.

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[Stephen Hammond]

I would like to be able to confirm that statistic, which may or may not be true, but I cannot do so at the moment. I will seek divine inspiration at some stage and write to my hon. Friend.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[Stephen Hammond]

I will, although I was going to address the hon. Gentleman’s remarks in a moment.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

As the Minister seeks inspiration, could he also try to find some inspiration on what impact the introduction of longer HGVs has had on road maintenance?

[Stephen Hammond]

I would prefer to write to the hon. Gentleman about that, as I might invite Madam Deputy Speaker’s strictures were I to deviate too far from what we are supposed to be talking about. Having listened to his experiences as a Minister, I know that he will be aware of how easy it can be to do so from this Dispatch Box. Tempting though it is, I shall resist it this afternoon.

The largest and heaviest vehicles will pay a time-based levy of up to £10 per day or £1,000 per year. We consider that fair, proportionate and compliant with the relevant EU regulations. Foreign vehicles will be able to pay daily, weekly or monthly to enable them to maximise flexibility. Linking the levy and the vehicle excise duty payment, and working with the Treasury and the Chancellor to include reductions in VED payments in the 2014 Finance Bill, will ensure that the vast majority of UK hauliers will pay no more than they do today. There will be a zero administrative cost for most UK vehicles. Vehicles that currently pay VED usually do so annually. In future, UK hauliers’ VED will cover both the reduced level of VED and the new charge in one payment.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

rose—

[Stephen Hammond]

I will give way, although I was going to try to clarify many of the points raised by the hon. Gentleman and others in a moment.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The Minister is being very generous. May I seek his explanation as to whether the technology that is being introduced by this ways and means measure is the same as that which could be used for further vehicle charging should the Government decide to embark on a wider road charging exercise?

[Stephen Hammond]

Yet again, the hon. Gentleman tempts me down a line that is grounded in speculation rather than anything else.