Guto Bebb
Main Page: Guto Bebb (Independent - Aberconwy)S4C
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Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
When I requested this debate on the future funding of S4C, I had not anticipated that events would move so quickly. It is fair to say that for many in Wales, the future funding arrangements for S4C have been a very visible and easily understood example of the hard choices that we as a country now face in dealing with the deficit and the debt problems. This coalition must get to grips with those issues and the mess that the previous Labour Government left us with.
No one can deny that S4C has an important place in the cultural landscape of Wales. It is important to be aware that the way in which the channel came into being is a key reason why its future funding arrangements are extremely important for many people in Wales. After all, it is the only Welsh language broadcaster in the world. Let me give a bit of historical context. The channel was launched in 1982 following a long and very public campaign, which was supported by all strands of Welsh society. It is worth noting that the decision to establish S4C was taken by a Conservative Government back in 1980.
Despite all the doubts that were expressed about the viability of a Welsh television channel, it is important to note that initially S4C proved to be a great success. The success of the channel in the early years was very much a reflection of the fact that there was a mix of Welsh programmes during the peak hours and Channel 4 programming that also attracted non-Welsh speakers. There is no doubt that the initial few years of S4C were very successful. There was a period in the 1980s and 1990s in which audience figures were often in excess of 150,000 for peak-time viewing.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
On a point of order, Mrs Brooke. May we adjourn the debate for a moment because there is a Division in the main Chamber?
Guto Bebb
As I was saying, Mrs Brooke, S4C’s initial period was successful, but it is important to note that it was more than just a television channel. The establishment of S4C unleashed creativity across Wales that led to the creation of a Welsh independent television sector, which prospered not only in Cardiff but in west Wales and Caernarfon in north Wales. That was undoubtedly a successful period for the channel, and that sustained period of success resulted in changes to S4C’s funding arrangements in 1991 that established a link with the retail prices index. That link has been questioned recently, and has been in the news.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Is my hon. Friend aware that the document that S4C presented to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on the request for budget savings said that the link with RPI went back to 1982? Is he not surprised that the document contained such a factual inaccuracy? Is it not indicative of the quality of the document submitted to the Department?
Guto Bebb
That might be surprising. The point that I want to make is that I believe that the RPI link has been a double-edged sword for the channel in many ways. In my view, the RPI link was crucial to giving S4C operational independence, because it created a feeling that the broadcaster would be independent of Government intervention. Anybody who believes that a public broadcaster should be free to broadcast whatever it desires would obviously welcome that link and the freedom that it gave S4C to pursue its own requirements. In many ways, therefore, the RPI link was a positive thing.
However, S4C had to pay a price for that link. The problem with a funding arrangement allowing for year-on-year increases was that it created a growing feeling that the channel and its management were becoming divorced from the people whom they served. When S4C’s viewing figures fell, the channel felt that there was no need for S4C to respond, because regardless of whether it was successful and getting the required audience figures—although in many cases it was—it was almost immune to the realities of falling audience share, because year on year its budget would increase.
Although I believe that the RPI link gave S4C a degree of independence from Government, which is crucial, it also created a comfort zone for the channel, so I do not mourn the loss of the RPI link in determining how the channel is funded. However, little did I know when I was putting together my notes that the RPI link would be the least of the issues that we would discuss today.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s history lesson about S4C’s funding, but as he said, we have been overtaken by events today. There are more pressing matters of funding that need to be addressed, and that is what my intervention is about. Is it not true that regarding S4C, today’s announcement was a shambles in terms of detail? A rather more interesting and important problem with the documentation is that two versions of the comprehensive spending review are currently available, one of which includes figures about S4C and how much funding it will receive from DCMS and the licence fee. There is a suggestion that £70 million will come from the licence fee—
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on this important day, although I know that he did not plan it to coincide with the announcement. He said that independence was important and allowed diversity in Welsh media broadcasting. Does he therefore agree that giving ownership to the BBC will diminish S4C’s independence in future? Before the general election, the then shadow Secretary of State, now the Secretary of State, said that plurality was the most important thing. Will the developments harm or increase plurality?
Annette Brooke (in the Chair)
Order. I am sure that hon. Members who have been in the House for some time are aware of the limitations of the Chair. Of course, any hon. Member here could have applied for an hour and a half Adjournment debate and they could still do so in the future—a course of action I would recommend. Obviously, all the time lost from the Divisions will be added to the end of the debate. I call Mr Guto Bebb.
Guto Bebb
I shall just finish responding to the intervention by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). Yes, the plurality and the independence of S4C are important; I will ask a question on that subject at the end of my speech.
The fact that the RPI link has gone means that we are in a much more serious situation. I would like to point out that the issue of the audience figures became very important during the review of funding for S4C. The RPI issue contributed to a lack of regard for the audience figures, but we still need to clarify the fact that some of the S4C audience figures that have been bandied around are not particularly accurate. I have my own concerns about the fact that the Broadcasters’ Audience Research Board viewing panel in Wales is possibly not sufficient to provide a proper audience figure.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on initiating this important and timely debate. On the point about viewing figures, would he acknowledge that one of the great successes of S4C that should be recognised—this is not borne out by the viewing figures—is the work that is being done in relation to young people’s and children’s television? That work is very important to the Welsh-speaking communities that many of us represent, and it is not acknowledged in the figures.
Guto Bebb
The hon. Gentleman jumps ahead of me. That is exactly the point I was going to make. In addition to the question marks we have over the BARB panel in Wales, my family are a very good example of why there are problems with the viewing figures. It is true to say that S4C has made an important decision to invest in the content of children’s television, and I think all hon. Members in the Chamber would welcome that. In my family, seven people live at home; five watch a lot of S4C and two unfortunately do not watch a lot of S4C. The two people who do not watch a lot of S4C are counted in the figures, whereas the five people who do are not included because they are children. My twin boys, who are six years old, would certainly be very annoyed that their viewing habits, which involve Cyw, are not included in the figures. So there are question marks over the S4C audience figures—specifically, the serial viewing figures. In addition, we should not deny that there are serious question marks over the audience figures at peak times.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Would my hon. Friend not acknowledge that if the figures are as large as S4C sometimes makes out, it should be raising more than £3 million from advertising, which is roughly just 3% of its total budget—as of today, anyway?
Guto Bebb
That is an interesting contribution. The viewing figures are a cause for concern in many ways. There are good reasons to defend some of them, but we have a situation in which occasionally as few as 19% of programmes manage a figure of more than 10,000 during peak time viewing. That is a real concern. As a result, there has been a serious discussion about whether S4C can justify the funding that it receives. I believe passionately that S4C can justify that funding.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in accepting interventions. Whatever we might think about the viewing figures or the funding formulae that have been used in the past, today’s announcement has been made without any consultation whatsoever with S4C. He surely must agree that that is reprehensible and possibly leaves the matter open for a judicial review.
Guto Bebb
My view is obviously that any decision of this nature should involve a degree of consultation. We need to be aware of the fact that there is a question mark over the matter, when the viewing figures indicate that the contribution of the channel to the Welsh language is not as important as it should be. So, we are where we are and we need to think carefully about the way forward.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Although the hon. Gentleman’s points are fascinating, we should go back to why S4C was set up. I was very much involved in the matter at the time because I was chairman of the Broadcasting Council for Wales. S4C was set up by Mrs Thatcher as a volte-face. She was reading Irish history at the time, and there was a very strong reason why she decided that S4C should be put in place: it was to avoid linguistic divisions in Wales. S4C was established to provide a full service for both communities in Wales—those who speak English predominantly and those who speak Welsh. We cannot judge the value of S4C purely on the basis of the number of viewers it has; there is a much deeper reason why it exists.
Guto Bebb
I acknowledge that there were deeper reasons for establishing S4C, but we must also recognise that the channel needs to serve the people of Wales, whether they are Welsh speakers, Welsh learners or non-Welsh speakers. There are question marks over whether the viewing figures are disappointing at times and whether the channel is doing what it should be doing. The feeling that the channel has moved away from the people it is supposed to serve is demonstrated, I believe, in the campaign that we have seen during the past few weeks in response to the potential threat to the channel. Even the Welsh Language Society, which no one could doubt is committed to the channel, is arguing for fair funding and a new S4C, because it believes that the current channel is perhaps not performing as it should.
When we talk about S4C, we often mention the wider cultural and economic implications, but it is interesting to note that the channel’s economic contribution has changed considerably over the past 20 years. The way that it once created new industries in parts of west and north-west Wales has certainly changed dramatically, and the loss of the Barcud studios in Caernarfon is an indication of that change and shows that the economic argument needs to be looked at again.
It is crucial that we move on and consider the future challenges that we face. Last night it was announced that the BBC would be taking over the funding of the channel, so there is now a need for clarity on the nature of the proposed settlement. We should acknowledge that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has accepted the argument for having S4C, which I appreciate. It is likely that the channel’s funding will be transferred to the BBC from 2014, so I would like to ask the Minister a few questions on what we have heard in the media and from the Chancellor this afternoon.
Will the funding for S4C be safeguarded within the BBC, and by what mechanism? It is all very well saying that the money will be forthcoming from the BBC licence payer, but by what mechanism will the S4C budget be protected within that licence fee? We are all aware that during the past four months the BBC has announced a 17% cut in its programming for S4C, with very little consultation, so I would like some clarification on that point. With regard to my earlier point on plurality and editorial independence, if there is a change in the funding mechanism for the channel, it is imperative that there is clarity about editorial and programming independence. I am sure that the Department can respond to that point.
Despite what I have said about S4C’s economic contribution, the channel does play a key role in supporting the cultural industries in Wales, especially independent television producers. If a pot of money from the BBC licence fee is to be made available for S4C, would the Minister clarify whether it will be ring-fenced for the independent producers, rather than swallowed by the BBC? Finally, we need assurances on the future funding for the channel, because if the decision for the BBC to take responsibility for that funding is to go ahead, I would like to know where we will stand not only in 2014, but in 2016 and beyond.
Hywel Williams
Before the hon. Gentleman concludes his remarks, would he tell Members whether he agrees with the scale of the cuts—25%—that have been reported? What is his opinion on that matter?
Guto Bebb
I have made it fairly clear to many constituents that I believe that a cut in S4C’s funding can be justified, as long as it is in keeping with the general cuts that the Department is facing. Having spoken with numerous television companies in Wales, I believe that the feeling is that, with greater efficiency, a cut of around 20% is manageable, but that anything more would be problematic. I hope that the cut will be about 20%, and no more than 25%.
I could ask the Minister many more questions, but I think that he has probably realised from the debate that there is a degree of concern about the transparency of the announcements, which I believe is no fault of the Department—the BBC got hold of the story. However, we need some clarity on the announcement. I have asked several questions, but I should be delighted if he would expand on those and comment on the critical issues that have been raised by other Members. Ultimately, we need to remember that we are all here because we are convinced of the need for a television channel broadcasting in Welsh and feel that, whatever settlement is made as a result of today’s announcements, it should be a long-term settlement, not a short-term response to a current fiscal crisis.
Annette Brooke (in the Chair)
Before calling the Minister, I remind Members that the debate will finish at 5.47 pm.