Disabled People: Support

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 27th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the changes to funding of support for disabled people.

I thank you, Mr Crausby, for chairing this important debate, and I thank everyone for attending. I also thank all the organisations—especially the Disability Benefits Consortium—that have briefed MPs on today’s debate. [Interruption.] I also thank whoever is phoning.

The debate is important. The disadvantage experienced by disabled people is well evidenced. They are twice as likely as other people to live in poverty. The percentage of working-age disabled people in employment has dropped in recent years. Even in work, disabled people are worse off than non-disabled people. According to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, disabled men in work face an 11% pay gap, while disabled women face a 22% pay gap.

Disabled people also experience higher routine costs of living. The Scope-facilitated Extra Costs Commission, which began its work in 2014, has set out in detail the hundreds of pounds that many disabled people spend every week as a direct result of living with certain health conditions and impairments. Sadly, Government policies—particularly since 2010—have made things far worse for disabled people and caused them greater difficulty.

As to my personal background on this issue, my mum has schizophrenia, and that contributed to my work choices —I worked for the Disability Rights Commission, the National Centre for Independent Living and Disability Alliance UK among others. The issue is also very relevant to my constituency, because we have a higher incidence of certain mental health conditions, and about 12,500 disabled people—about one in nine of my constituents —live in Bermondsey and Old Southwark, according to the Library. The issue should, however, matter to everyone, because we should facilitate a society in which anyone can contribute, to the maximum of their potential. Sadly, however, that possibility is being undermined.

The debate’s timing is useful. Tomorrow is the last day of the Government’s consultation on the future of personal independence payments. Fears about disabled people losing work as a direct result of the introduction of personal independence payments are beginning to be realised. Over the weekend, the Daily Mirror covered the case of Denise Haddon which is yet another example of a disabled person who uses a Motability vehicle for work, but who could see that vehicle withdrawn, with them being forced out of work as a direct result of Government policy.

Today, colleagues in the House of Lords—certainly, Labour colleagues—will also be pushing amendments on the work-related activity group cuts in the Welfare Reform and Work Bill, which will affect half a million disabled people. This afternoon, we will have an Opposition day debate on supported housing, in which we will call for an exemption for such housing from housing benefit cuts. This debate is therefore very timely.

The Government have their priorities wrong. They keep coming back to disabled people and undermining support, rather than focusing on areas where there is more potential. Just this week, for example, we saw the Google fiasco, which demonstrates yet again that we are not all in this together and that there is a significant imbalance in whom the Government choose to squeeze more out of.

What is worse, the Government suggest that their measures are about supporting disabled people into work or about providing more support to those who need it most. If they believe that any group of disabled people has definitely benefited more as a direct result of any policy since 2010, I would welcome the Minister providing evidence to back that up.

On work, 53% of working-age disabled people were in work in 2010, but the figure is now under 50%. The Library has pointed out that, of the 320,000 disabled people on employment and support allowance referred to the Work programme since 2011, only 16% got a job. Although 43% of those on Work Choice—a more specialised programme—could be supported into work, which is of benefit, the Government have announced that the two schemes will be merged in 2017. It would be useful to have a stronger indication from the Minister whether we will see a levelling up or a levelling down of the support provided to disabled people. Will we see a return to more specialised, localised support, with smaller suppliers who are better able to provide the dedicated support that many disabled people need? We saw good schemes under things such as the future jobs fund and the working neighbourhoods fund, which were more localised and specialised, but which were unable to compete following the changes introduced in 2010.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he agree that the issue is sometimes ensuring that training makes the right skills available for disabled people? Many disabled people want to get into work, but they are prevented from doing so by the inability to access the very skills they need to get into the workplace.

[Neil Coyle]

I completely agree that that training needs to be there. It would be useful to hear from the Minister how whatever new programme is put in place in 2017 will make training and dedicated, specialised support available.

Another thing we have seen is that the number of disability employment advisers, who have specialist knowledge, has dropped by 20% since 2010. There is now less than one adviser per 600 disabled people who are meant to be supported, so we are heading in the wrong direction.

People have been in touch with me about the Access to Work programme. For anyone who is unfamiliar with it, it is a specialised programme that helps disabled people to retain or attain work. The Department for Work and Pensions used to accept—it seems to shy away from accepting this know—that, for every pound spent on Access to Work, about £1.48 was returned through things such as national insurance contributions and income tax. However, fewer disabled people are now supported under Access to Work than in 2009-10—the figure has dropped from just over 37,000 to 36,700. That needs addressing, and it would be welcome if the Minister told us whether there will be more targeted support under Access to Work to increase those numbers.

In 2014, the Government said they were expanding Access to Work to include work placements acquired by the individual disabled person. I have asked questions about that and received no information to show whether the Government are actually delivering on that. In 2011, the Government said that they accepted all the recommendations of the Sayce review, including those on Access to Work. Perhaps we could have an update on how they are taking forward the review’s retention and promotion aspects. In the 2015 spending review, the Government announced that Access to Work funding would support 25,000 additional disabled people by providing IT help, but we have no information on what that means or how it will be rolled out in practice. It would be useful to hear more about that significant target.

The Down’s Syndrome Association has been in touch and has provided briefing for the debate to highlight its WorkFit programme. The association says the programme has supported 75 individuals with Down’s syndrome into work, but that only three have met the stringent eligibility criteria for Access to Work. The association feels that that needs to change, and it is keen to hear from the Minister whether the Government will take forward its recommendations.

I want to raise the issue of assessments and accessible information. I have a constituent called Norma who lives in Walworth. Her daughter, who is about 50, has learning disabilities and a visual impairment, and she is deaf. The DWP has been contacting Norma to press for her daughter to be assessed, and Norma feels that her daughter is being told she should be working, even though she cannot leave her home without support. Norma feels she is under considerable pressure. I will write to the Minister about this specific example after the debate, and I will encourage him to explain why Norma and her daughter feel they are under such pressure from the DWP.

Disabled people have also been in touch with significant concerns about universal credit. Some projections suggest that universal credit will be about 1,000 years in delivery, so perhaps some of the fears are unnecessary, as we will not be here. However, it appears that the Government have scrapped the limited capability for work element before any disabled person has been able to access it, which will leave 116,000 working disabled people £40 a week worse off. Once again, the idea that the Government want to support people into work is undermined by their policies. Citizens Advice has also highlighted in a report that in-work single disabled people will be worse off because of the scrapping of the severe disability premium, which will leave almost 250,000 disabled people worse off by between £28 and £58 a week. The Children’s Society has pointed out that, under universal credit, 100,000 disabled children could also lose £28 a week. I ask the Minister what message that sends to those disabled people.

Employment and support allowance is also a significant concern for many of my constituents, 5,630 of whom receive it. The Government recently announced that a cut of £1.4 billion will affect disabled people in the work-related activity group; that is £30 a week for half a million disabled people. DWP statistics show who those people are. They include a quarter of a million people with learning disabilities, autism or significant mental health problems. Again, I ask the Minister why those specific people were chosen for that measure. What are the Government seeking to achieve by targeting such a disadvantaged and vulnerable group?

An example given to me by Parkinson’s UK shows something of the challenge that disabled people have in accepting that the Government agenda is genuine. In a written answer to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr Godsiff) on Monday, the Minister for Employment revealed that since 2008, when ESA was introduced, 200 people with Parkinson’s in the work-related activity group were assessed and given a medical prognosis by the DWP that they would not be able to return to work for at least two years, or longer. The Department is telling people whom it has assessed as unable to work for two years that they will be receiving £1,500 less per year to get them back into work within that period. I hope that the Minister will comment on that. I hope, too, that he will answer the suggestion raised elsewhere that there will be no change for those already in the work-related activity group. Does that include those whose circumstances change, and those who undergo repeat assessments?

The change to ESA follows previous changes, including the time limiting of some support, which has left 280,000 disabled people with no out-of-work benefit. Some have very low incomes, and it is most unfortunate that the Government have managed to pick that group for an increase in poverty. I would welcome a comment from the Minister about that.

I want briefly to cover sanctions. In its briefing, the Child Poverty Action Group highlighted the fact that some sanctions mean that 100% of a person’s financial support goes. Those sanctions can last up to three years, under the increasingly automated system introduced by the previous Government. [Interruption.] I am glad that some Members find that funny. I find that very strange. Would the hon. Gentleman like to intervene?

Social Security

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

It is important to be mindful throughout today’s debate of the events that have led us to this point. It is now almost a full year since the Stormont House agreement was finalised, after months of negotiation between five Northern Irish political parties, involving representatives of the UK, US and Irish Governments. Those negotiations sought to reach a lasting solution to some of the problems that have afflicted Northern Ireland not just in recent years, but throughout its history. The agreement made a substantial amount of progress on some of the most contentious issues, including flags, parades and dealing with the past, while also seeking a way forward on issues such as welfare reform and the devolution of corporation tax.

The Stormont House agreement marked a turning point, but in the longer term it has not provided a conclusive resolution to most of the issues that the parties sought to address. Divisions have remained in the 12 months since and have escalated at frequent intervals. On more than one occasion this year, it appeared that there was a genuine risk not just that the devolution settlement might collapse, but that we might see a return to direct rule for the first time in almost a decade. Whatever their disagreements, it has always been clear that none of the parties wanted that. Neither, of course, did hon. Members on either side of this Chamber.

My hope is that today marks the end of a difficult process that none of us wants to see repeated. The Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Act 2015, which received Royal Assent this week—together with this order, which it enabled—takes an important step towards bringing the events of the last 12 months to a close. I suspect that no one will see this order as a perfect solution. Most will nevertheless regard it as necessary at least, in so far as it paves the way for an end to financial penalties and a return to stable government. The Opposition will not, therefore, be voting against the order today, just as we did not vote against the enabling Bill, which became law last week.

We have serious concerns about many of the Government’s welfare reforms and, as the Minister knows, we have not held back from expressing them at the appropriate time. We have also, however, been consistent in our view that these debates are not the right forum for rehearsing the arguments we have been making elsewhere. We sincerely hope that, in bringing recent disagreements over welfare reform in Northern Ireland to a close, this legislation will mark the beginning of a new chapter in its history. It is hoped by many that it will pave the way for progress on long stalled issues, including the devolution of corporation tax, as I mentioned, as well as a voluntary redundancy scheme to mitigate the impact of recent civil service cuts on Northern Ireland’s workforce.

We particularly welcome the provisions made for transitional protections, extending over a number of years, to help to mitigate the impact of some of the most significant changes. These include important protections for existing claimants affected by the bedroom tax and the transition from disability living allowance to the personal independence payment. I understand that agreement has also been reached for a number of changes to be made to the way that universal credit will be implemented in Northern Ireland, which include exemptions from the requirement for single household payments, provisions to allow the housing costs element to be paid directly to landlords and protections in the sanctions regime for lone parents seeking work.

These are all welcome compromises on the part of the Department for Work and Pensions. Although they may not address all the concerns that have been raised about welfare reform in Northern Ireland, they will nevertheless go some way towards mitigating the impact on some of the most vulnerable among those affected.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The hon. Lady is rightly outlining some of the beneficial mitigating measures that will come into effect in Northern Ireland. As a Member of Parliament in this part of the United Kingdom, does she perhaps look on the package in Northern Ireland with some shades of envy for her own constituents?

[Emily Thornberry]

I appreciate that some of the compromises that the DUP have reached for Northern Ireland are not outcomes that we have managed to achieve on the mainland. Many of the policies that I see in front of me are certainly things that the Labour party has called for, so I congratulate DUP Members. Let us call a spade a spade. These are all welcome compromises on the DUP’s part. Although they may not address all the concerns, they nevertheless go some way towards mitigating the impacts on some of the most vulnerable among those affected.

We must remember that the divisions that recent negotiations have sought to heal go far beyond welfare reform alone. As such, finalising this agreement will allow progress to be made in other areas, making available additional funding for the Police Service of Northern Ireland to step up its efforts to fight terrorism. There will also be new funding for community initiatives, among them efforts to bring down the peace walls that have historically divided Northern Ireland’s communities. The compromises reached on the part of the DUP helped to get the exceptional circumstances of Northern Ireland recognised. Disagreements no doubt remain, but the settlement reached between Stormont and Westminster nevertheless presents an opportunity to draw a line under the difficult events that we have lived through in recent months.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I want to make it clear that the responsibility for this matter being debated in the House today lies fully with the SDLP and with Sinn Féin—and the Greens: the wee Green man in the Assembly. They used the powers that were available to block the legislation, created a constitutional and financial crisis in the Assembly, and hurt the many hundreds of thousands of people who found that for the last year the budget of the Assembly had been in disarray. The only way out of the impasse that had been created by the SDLP and Sinn Féin was to bring the legislation here. At the end of the day, common sense prevailed, and that is why we are in our present position.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

Does my hon. Friend recognise that, on top of the problems that have been caused by the SDLP and Sinn Féin, more than £100 million-worth of fines were levied on the Assembly as a result of that intransigence?

[Sammy Wilson]

Of course, that £100 million-plus could have been used to deal with many of the pressing problems faced by my hon. Friend’s constituents and mine, and, indeed. the constituents of all of us in the House tonight. They could not benefit from hip operations, eye operations or special needs provision in schools because money had been drained from the Northern Ireland budget unnecessarily. Let us be clear about this. The responsibility for the legislation being brought here rests with those who took the view that they did, even after concessions had been made. I want to thank the Ministers on the Treasury Bench who listened to the special case in Northern Ireland, albeit that they made us pay for the changes ourselves. Nevertheless, they recognised that there were special conditions in Northern Ireland and they were prepared to be flexible. I suspect that caused some difficulty for them with their constituents, because the same arrangements were not available here on the mainland. Nevertheless, they were made available in Northern Ireland—although, as I said, the Northern Ireland Executive had to pay for the changes made.

This was always going to be a difficult issue because of the parity principle. It is one of the reasons why at the very beginning when devolution was being set up we questioned whether welfare should ever be devolved; departure from the parity principle was always going to be very difficult. The arrangement was that, so long as Northern Ireland stayed in line with tax changes and benefit changes in the rest of the UK, through the annually managed expenditure, whatever the cost of welfare would be, it would be met by the Exchequer; it would not have to be found locally, but would be met by the Exchequer. It was perfectly legitimate to say, “We’re not going to allow you to go and do your own thing and then expect the Treasury to pick up the bill.” We expect there to be that parity principle and, that being the case, the devolution of welfare to the Northern Ireland Assembly was always going to create difficulties if parties decided to dig their heels in and ask for radically different arrangements.

It has been mentioned that my party voted against some of the things contained in the Bill at Westminster. That is true, but there are many things we voted for. We supported the benefit cap. We supported the move to universal credit and the simplification of benefit arrangements. We supported the principle that benefits should be set at a level to make work pay, and not to penalise people who went out and worked. We supported all those things, but there were things we were not happy with. We voted against them here. In some cases we were able to negotiate differences in Northern Ireland, and in some cases we were not, but we faced up to the reality that once the legislation had passed through Westminster the Northern Ireland budget was not going to be able to bear the cost of not implementing it in Northern Ireland.

It is ironic, however, that the SDLP should say that Sinn Féin and the DUP rolled over to the Government on welfare reform. Let me give one example. When the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) was Minister for Social Development, she put through a lot of statutory instruments that simply reflected welfare changes here and were introduced in Northern Ireland, very often without any debate. Indeed, it was her successor who introduced in Northern Ireland the removal of the spare room subsidy for the private rented sector, and then railed against it when it was introduced for tenants in the public rented sector. There was not a word about it in the Northern Ireland Assembly when her colleague Mr Attwood introduced that. So we can see a certain amount of conflict between the anti-welfare rhetoric of the SDLP and its willingness on many occasions to introduce welfare changes through the Assembly.

Diffuse Mesothelioma Payment Scheme

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) for securing it and for giving us all a chance to participate and give a viewpoint—I will obviously give a Northern Ireland viewpoint. It is also a pleasure, as always, to follow the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) and to hear her contribution.

This issue has affected a great number of people in my constituency of Strangford and, indeed, across the whole of Northern Ireland. I thank the Minister for his announcement, but I seek clarification on how the compensation will affect Northern Ireland. I am aware that the Northern Ireland Assembly made a decision in 2012 on the issue. I will ask him some questions on that later, because it is important to get the situation and how the compensation payments will affect those in Northern Ireland entirely clarified. When I comment on that later, hon. Members will see the clear disparity between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Those are important issues.

This is a common disease, particularly among the older generation and particularly in the old industrial towns of Belfast. With Harland and Wolff employing some 15,000 workers in the shipyards, and as many as 30,000 workers at one stage, it is unsurprising that so many men—and also women—in and around Belfast were affected by asbestos-related illnesses. For many plumbers, electricians and builders working in the ’50s and ’60s in towns within and outside the shipyards, asbestos was commonplace, so unsurprisingly a large number of people in my constituency have been affected. Indeed, the story is told that when Harland and Wolff was at its height, the asbestos flakes were of such enormity and quantity that they were in the streets of east Belfast, where the children played among them, never realising that doing so would be detrimental to their health, so it is not necessarily just the workers in the shipyard who were affected, but those outside it. Over some 30 years as an elected representative—I was doing the figures the other day; figures are always a reminder of how many years we have been on this earth—as a councillor, a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and, now, as a Member of Parliament here, I have had occasion to represent many of my constituents on this issue in relation to their benefits and their compensation claims as well.

Malignant mesothelioma is the most serious of all asbestos-related diseases. As has been mentioned, exposure to asbestos is the primary cause and a risk factor for mesothelioma. Making a correct mesothelioma diagnosis is particularly difficult for doctors because the disease often presents with symptoms that mimic other common ailments, so people may sometimes not be aware of exactly what is happening. There is currently no cure for mesothelioma, but treatments are available to help with the typical mesothelioma prognosis.

It is clear that investment in research into mesothelioma is desperately needed. The United Kingdom has the highest rate of the disease in the world—that is not something to be proud of, but it is a fact of life that we have the highest figures. That is largely because the UK Government permitted the use of asbestos long after other countries outlawed the mineral’s use. In addition, and as mentioned previously, shipbuilders historically are among the people most affected by mesothelioma, and the shipbuilding industry plays a large role in the history of the United Kingdom, in particular in Belfast and Northern Ireland, especially around the time of second world war. The British Lung foundation has said that this year, it is estimated that 2,400 people will die of the disease, and that over the next 30 years, more than 50,000 people will die of mesothelioma in the UK unless new treatments are found. The hon. Members for Liverpool, Walton and for Chatham and Aylesford both mentioned the need to do more research and to try more actively to find a cure.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend is talking about heavy industry and the shipyards, and the impact that they had. Given that the numbers of people dying from mesothelioma are continuing to increase post that revolution, that would indicate that the research that he is talking about—and is generally agreed should increase—should be where the effort is concentrated after the announcement yesterday that greater research has to be done for the future.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend and colleague for that intervention. Yes, that needs to happen. I know that this Minister is not responsible for health, but perhaps he could give us some idea of what discussions he may have had with the relevant Health Minister on finding a cure or treatment that works and is more effective.

Relatively little is spent on mesothelioma research in the United Kingdom compared with other cancers of comparable mortality. In 2011, the National Cancer Research Institute reported that £400,000 was invested in mesothelioma research by its partners. That seems like a lot of money, but compared with figures for research today, it is not, so we need some indication of how that will be increased. The amount compares with some £5 million and some £5.5 million spent respectively on myeloma and melanoma—two cancers that kill a similar number of people each year—in the same year.

Given how aggressive this cancer is, it surprises me, but also saddens me, that in 2015 we are still not working hard enough to find a cure. That is the very issue to which my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) referred. I was pleased to see that the Northern Ireland Assembly introduced a scheme to help those not just affected first hand, but who had come into contact through relatives—by washing clothes, for example, which is how many of the wives, girlfriends, mothers and children have been directly affected by what has happened. On 1 October 2008, the scheme was launched and then, last year a scheme was introduced in the UK. Although it is similar, there are some key differences, and it is those key differences that concern me most. I will focus on those quickly and seek the Minister’s response on them; his help would be greatly appreciated.

In Northern Ireland, a person—this includes dependants—has to claim within 12 months of receiving a diagnosis or within 12 months of receiving an industrial injuries disablement benefit. On the UK mainland, a person has three years to make the claim. That is quite a difference, so I seek to clarify how and what methods can be used to address that issue. The scheme is also open only to those diagnosed on or after 25 July 2012. That automatically cuts out a large proportion of the community, because so many of those who worked in the ’50s and ’60s and before that were diagnosed some time ago. That means that they are directly disadvantaged and excluded. That simply should not be the case, because every person affected by this cancer deserves some form of compensation. Unfortunately, compensation will not make them better; but what it does do, importantly, is help them in some way, and it is what is deserved, so it just seems like a no-brainer to me that we should be doing our best to help them.

Not only that, but there is a significant disparity between compensation payments in Northern Ireland and those on the UK mainland. Both systems work on the same basis, so the younger someone is, the more compensation they receive. In Northern Ireland, if a person is aged 37 or under, they will receive just over £80,000 as a lump sum. At the other end of the spectrum, if a person is aged 77 or over, they receive just over £12,500. At the same time, in the UK mainland, someone aged 40 or under will receive just over £216,000, and a person aged 90 or over will receive just under £70,000. There is a massive disparity in payouts. It is quite shocking to see such a difference, so I seek an explanation from the Minister and perhaps his help on how we can make progress, so that there is a similarity between payouts across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Mesothelioma does not change. It does not stop at the Irish sea, nor does it lessen when it crosses the Irish sea, so it disappoints me that people living in Northern Ireland are afforded so much less because of their postcode. Last January, I asked the Secretary of State for Health what discussions he had had with his counterparts in Northern Ireland about introducing this strategy on a UK-wide basis. He said at the time that he had not had any discussions with them. A year on, I put the same question, this time to the Minister present in the Chamber. What discussions have taken place with his counterparts in Northern Ireland about a UK-wide strategy to tackle mesothelioma, so that everyone in the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland can have the same payouts, the same compensation and the same help?

Personal Independence Payments

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

On the issue of lessons that may be learned, does my hon. Friend agree that in Northern Ireland we are looking at this matter with some trepidation, given that we have significantly higher numbers of people on DLA per head of population? I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us that the information gleaned over the course of the past two years will be of some assistance in trying to minimise the problems and errors that the process has been fraught with.

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend’s intervention clearly illustrates the issue for us in Northern Ireland. I have a member of staff in my constituency office who now does nothing else but deal with benefit issues and issues with the DLA; I spoke to her this morning to talk over some of the issues. We have a higher proportion of claimants in my constituency and a higher proportion of contact with them. The Government have offered Members’ staff the opportunity to have training on the new system, which my staff took up, and I hope that the information that they have gleaned from the training classes here in London will be sufficient to enable the change to be managed more easily in my constituency. That is one of the really good things that the Government have done.

PIP retains key features of DLA, which is important for a smooth transition. It is not means-tested and is non-taxable and non-contributory. It is intended to provide financial support for disabled people who face the greatest challenges in remaining independent—it is important to help those people hold on to some of their independence. It is payable to people both in and out of work and has two components—daily living and mobility—with different levels of award for each based on the assessed level of need.

The benefit has been changed and improved, however, in the sense that it encourages a move to a more transparent and objective assessment of need, with assessments by health professionals employed by contracted providers. I know that there is a lot to be learned from the past two years here on the mainland, but the PIP system itself is something that most of us can welcome, because on paper it has the potential to make lives better and be better at helping people. However, there have been recurring problems and I want to make some observations about what has happened.

The assessment places a stronger emphasis on the functional impact of claimants’ underlying disabling and medical conditions, not on the conditions themselves. That is vital, because people are affected by conditions in different ways. We see that in my office every week. What one person may need might not be needed by another person, so that is one element that I was happy to see changed; it is one of the new system’s pluses, at least on paper. A points-based system to assess eligibility for awards will also be included, with more regular reviews of eligibility for those receiving awards. Finally, there is greater focus on the needs of claimants with mental health conditions.

Over my last four and a half years as a Member of Parliament, I have become more aware of the needs of people with mental health issues. I do not know what it is about society, or whether it is a combination of things, but more people today have mental health conditions, and we need a system that understands the issue. In Northern Ireland, we had a conflict over 30 years, which may have contributed to mental health problems, and we have concerns about that.

Pension Schemes Bill

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

I do not agree that it is either unusual or unsatisfactory. It is clearly important that the House accepts and is familiarised with the basic principles of approach and that we set out what will be in the regulations and what we are going to try to achieve through them, but often the regulations will be subject to separate consultation exercises. There is an awful lot of scrutiny; I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that these things are never knowingly unscrutinised.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about the timetable. Let us put it this way: our lawyers are not taking Christmas holidays. We are working as fast as we can.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The Minister talks about the lawyers not taking Christmas holidays. We are almost in December, so how certain can those people across the United Kingdom who are preparing for retirement in April, May or June of next year be in the weeks that follow the autumn statement and the non-holiday taking of the lawyers that they will have clarity, and that it will come before April?

[Steve Webb]

I think that the grouping of the amendments means that we are muddying together two completely separate things. The guidance guarantee and the budget freedoms will be in place on 6 April and the legislative framework will be in place—period.

Also in this group are regulations about defined ambition pensions, risk sharing and so on and they must be in place by April 2016. I think perhaps our conversation has been slightly at cross purposes. What has to be in place by April 2015 will be. There has been lots of consultation and a lot of it is not about regulation but about FCA rules. The FCA has already been consulting extensively and will publish more shortly. Separately, we will have many regulations to produce on defined ambition and so on. That will take longer and there will be further consultations on all that. I do not think there is anything particularly unprecedented about any of this.

Let me move on, finally, to amendment 73, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). They obviously raise an important point about the context of the guidance guarantee and the fact that DC pension pots these days, although hopefully not in the distant future, might be only a small part of people’s overall retirement wealth. I would not dispute for a moment the premise that decisions have to be made in context and that, as far as possible, we want well-informed consumers making the best decisions in their own interests.

I do not want to over-promise what this relatively limited conversation can cover or achieve. It clearly is not regulated financial advice. It is not a fact check or a fact finder. It will not lead people to say at the end, “It’s equity release for me.” I am not saying that that is what my right hon. and hon. Friends are saying, but we must be absolutely clear that we will not stretch this thing to achieve other goals, laudable as they might be, when they are not what it is being set up to do. For example, people who do not have DC pension pots might also want to think about equity release, but they will not access the guidance guarantee because they will not have a pot. If we think people should be accessing equity release more often, we need policies to deliver that. Shoehorning them into the guidance guarantee inappropriately will hit some people and not others. We must ensure that the guidance conversation delivers what it is meant to do and if we try to cram too much into it, we risk undermining that. That is one of the things we are testing through the surveying we are doing and through behavioural testing. If we bombard people with lots of products, issues and options, one of the worries is that they will just buy an annuity with their own provider and we will almost go back to where we started. So we are trying to strike that balance, and I wanted to put the caveat in first.

Let me now try to be a little more positive. My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate asked for more detail on the guidance guarantee. Our colleagues at the Treasury have committed to providing further information in an update on progress on implementation that will be published before the end of the year on 31 December. That deals with the guidance guarantee.

To be clear, I would welcome the opportunity provided by my hon. Friends to clarify that the objective of the guidance is to ensure that consumers are empowered to make effective decisions about their retirement income options. While the focal point for the guidance session will be an individual’s DC pot, the guidance will cover the range of issues that affect an individual’s financial decision-making. That includes their wider financial circumstances—debts, others assets including their home and their personal motivations and goals, including attitudes to risk, desire for an income and so forth.

This is all provided for in the FCA’s proposed standards, which will be published in final form very shortly. They require that the guidance service encourages people to provide relevant information about their financial and personal circumstances and their objectives to ensure that they can get maximum value from their guidance. The financial information might include pension pots or benefits, other sources of wealth or income, including where the individual has a spouse or partner, tax status and debt position.

Our colleagues at the Treasury, along with the delivery partners, are working up the detail of the guidance in line with FCA standards, including scope and what it should cover. I hope my right hon. and hon. Friends will accept that it is not appropriate to hardwire those things directly into the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate said during the course of the Taxation of Pensions Bill:

“It will have to be capable of being improved in the light of experience”.—[Official Report, 29 October 2014; Vol. 587, c. 340.]

I agree with him on that point. Stipulating these things in legislation does not allow us to adapt the guidance in this way. We want to give people context, but not try to hardwire things into primary legislation when we are trying to evolve the best possible guidance offer.

I should stress, as I have said, that we are not talking about regulated financial advice. Guidance will help consumers consider their assets such as housing, wealth, savings and investment in the context of their retirement decision, but it is not a fully holistic financial planning service, such as one might get from multiple sessions with a professional regulated financial adviser. We are clear that the guidance will not replicate the services of professional financial advice, but will complement it. We will ensure that the consumers know both the value of seeking financial advice and where to go next. Referring again to Second Reading of the Taxation of Pensions Bill, my hon. Friend made the point:

“If the guidance can push people in that direction, to properly regulated and properly informed independent financial advisers, we will have properly informed consumers making proper choices.”—[Official Report, 29 October 2014; Vol. 587, c. 341.]

I am happy to reassure him that the guidance will do just that.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam asked about social care. I can assure him that our Treasury colleagues are working on how to hand individuals on to the right place after using guidance. On social care, we are in discussions with a range of organisations, including Age UK, while we are discussing with the Department of Health how to link in to the statutory duty on local authorities, in which I believe my right hon. Friend might have had some involvement, to refer people to local care and advice services. I can assure both my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend that we take these issues seriously. This is not advice; it is guidance, but it is guidance in a financial context. We want to equip consumers to make the best choices they can. I hope the House will leave us with flexibilities to go on evolving that, while recognising that greater certainty is needed as soon as possible.

Pension Schemes Bill

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd September 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

It is a great pleasure to respond to this Second Reading debate. As we have heard, it has perhaps been shorter than it might have been, but none the less I thank all those who have contributed to it from the Back Benches: my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field), the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), who is the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) and my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), who takes a very close interest in these matters. By and large it has been a thoughtful and constructive debate and the most heated areas of controversy have been when we have considered the pensions records of previous Governments.

I reiterate the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham and my right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions about this Government’s proud record on pension reform. We have implemented the triple lock, which has meant that pensions are uprated by earnings, prices or 2.5%, whichever is highest. That means that the full rate of the basic state pension is £440 a year higher in 2014-15 than if it had been uprated by earnings since the start of this Parliament. We have introduced auto-enrolment. I acknowledge the point that has been made that the previous Government intended to introduce it in the end, but as my right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions set out, we as a Government have taken a number of steps to make the policy workable and successful. The number of those who will benefit and who are benefiting from that is considerable. The introduction of the single-tier pension has made our state pension simpler and clearer. The single-tier pension has enabled us to go forward with some of the reforms that we are discussing today which will allow greater pension flexibility.

The debate today and the debate on the Bill has essentially focused on two areas: first, defined ambition in terms of risk sharing, and secondly, pensions flexibility —particularly, in the context of the Bill, on issues related to the guidance guarantee. Let me turn first to the case for defined ambition, which, as we have heard, is to find a middle way—greater flexibility within our pension system, which has traditionally been somewhat binary, with defined-contributions schemes and defined-benefits schemes but nothing really in between. The Bill redefines the framework to recognise explicitly the middle ground and encourage provision of shared-risk pensions where risks are shared more equitably between employers and employees. Let me respond to the various points and questions that have been raised in respect of that area.

My hon. Friend the Member for Fareham asked to what extent and how defined-ambition schemes are guaranteed. The Bill does not prescribe benefit design and that is intentional. Our consultation presented a number of ways in which that could be done and our measure is intended to encourage a variety of designs. So there is no one set answer; indeed, one could argue that that is the point. In response to my hon. Friend’s question about guarantees and the cost to the individual, it is not always the case that the member bears the cost of the guarantee. Some employers may choose to stand behind the promise. Capital requirements and scheme funding requirements already apply to pension vehicles and will continue to apply to schemes called defined ambition in respect of the promises.

A number of contributors to the debate, including the shadow Pensions Minister, asked to what extent there is an indication that there is employer interest in defined ambition. DWP research found that more than a quarter of employers are already interested in offering a pension involving greater risk sharing between members and employers. Over half of employers—52%—said that they would like to set up a scheme where the employer pays fixed contributions and where there is more certainty for the employee, such as DC plus. The response to our “Reshaping workplace pensions for future generations” consultation also demonstrated a strong desire from unions for collective models.

In terms of that demand, the DWP has had discussions with interested employers, but I am sure the House will understand that employers will want to see the detail and communicate with their work force. We do not want to pre-empt those processes, but we believe that the addition of a defined ambition of risk sharing to our pension framework is advantageous.

On inter-generational risk sharing and whether a risk transfer is desirable, we do not want to disallow all inter-generational risk sharing within schemes offering collective benefits, but we want to ensure that it is open and transparent. That is a lesson that we have learned from the way in which such schemes have operated in other jurisdictions.

On governance of collective defined-ambition schemes, we will use governance powers from the Pensions Act 2014 and make regulations using those powers. On issues around making decisions about retirement income in collectives, we want to create innovation. We do not want to constrain or prevent part of the market, and insurance firms or schemes that are not occupational schemes, from offering such scheme. Of course it would always be a fiduciary making a decision about the retirement income, but the measures in the Bill provide for requirements around the specific features of collectives.

We heard questions about collective investment strategies and the risk of an over-cautious strategy, so it is worth highlighting the example of a New Brunswick scheme that is required to operate with a 97.5% probability that base benefits will not reduce. The scheme has 40% investment in assets and 20% investment in real estate and other assets, so the probability requirement has not led to an over-cautious investment strategy.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen South cited several questions that have been raised by the Law Society of Scotland. Shared-risk schemes will cover existing and new schemes. If a scheme shares longevity risk, it will be a defined-ambition scheme. She asked about the definition of a promise made during the savings period, as well as whether a promise made at

“times before the benefit comes into payment”

relates to when the annuity is set up or the repayment is made. The intention is that a promise made at a time before the benefit comes into payment describes a promise made by a scheme during the savings phase, rather than a separate promise made at retirement. She also asked whether a third-party promise would include an arrangement whereby the promise is made by an insurer, rather than the scheme, and the answer is yes. If she wishes to raise further queries on behalf of the Law Society of Scotland, we will be happy to respond to them.

Let me turn to the freedoms that the Chancellor set out in the Budget, which will be implemented by this Bill and the pensions taxation Bill that I am sure we all look forward to debating in the not-too-distant future. Although Labour Members appeared to reserve their judgment about whether they support the policy, the tone of the contributions of Labour Front and Back Benchers suggested that they were far from enthusiastic about the reforms announced in the Budget, to put it mildly. This was not just the questioning and scrutiny that any Opposition would undertake; it seemed to me that, philosophically, the Labour party was uncomfortable with the reforms.

The shadow Pensions Minister asked whether flexibility and guidance would address inertia in the annuities market, but prior to the Budget announcements, consumers were not incentivised to shop around for annuities. They will have more options and more reasons to engage with the market as a result of greater flexibility, and access to impartial, good-quality guidance will be key to having better informed and more empowered consumers. They will be equipped to look for products that work for them, and the decumulation market, including the annuities market, will be incentivised to respond to the demands of more empowered consumers and will have the freedom to do so.

It is sometimes said that people simply will not be able to make good choices, but leaving aside concerns that that view is somewhat patronising, I argue that the existing system restricts choice at the point of retirement, and the Government do not believe that that is right. The Government recognise that with more choices at retirement, consumers’ decisions will become more complex, so we have introduced the guidance guarantee to help consumers to understand their options.

The shadow Pensions Minister referred to the apparent contradiction between auto-enrolment, which is predicated on inertia, and the Turner proposals and giving greater choice to savers. It is always right that people save and that we put in place a regime that encourages saving, but when savers reach retirement it is right that they have the opportunity to engage and have a full range of choices available to them. We believe that it is sensible to set out the detailed technical requirements in secondary legislation, which will allow time for consultation and to respond to evolving risks in the market.

The right hon. Member for Neath said that flexibility will result in people spending all their money at once, which is risky, but those people who have worked hard all their lives should be free to decide how to use their savings. At present the system allows those with the smallest and largest pension pots complete flexibility, but restricts those in the middle of the distribution who have worked hard and saved all their lives. The Government do not dictate how people spend their other money, so why should they do so for pension savings? However, we recognise that people do need support in making these decisions and that is why we are introducing the guidance guarantee.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Many of the large number of people in the middle, as the Minister puts it, will be looking forward to retiring in 2015 and 2016. How clear is he that they understand the implications that will face them in six or seven months’ time that did not face previous generations?

[Mr Gauke]

That is why we are bringing in the guidance guarantee. That is why we want to ensure that people can make informed decisions. That is what drives everything we are doing here and that will be an important part of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster asked whether the guidance would undermine or replace financial advice. The Government intend that the guidance will be a critical first step for consumers at the point of retirement. It will be designed to help consumers navigate the options available and it is not intended to replicate the services of professional financial advisers. The Government expect that many consumers will go on to seek further advice and will ensure that the guidance equips consumers to choose the advisory service that suits their needs.

The guidance service will not stray into areas such as specific product or provider recommendations, which would be better handled by an authorised independent financial adviser. Guidance will signpost consumers to other sources of guidance and advice as appropriate, including professional financial advice. The Government expect that many consumers will go on to seek further advice and will ensure that the guidance equips consumers to choose the advisory service that suits their needs.

The Government believe that it is right that those firms that are likely to benefit from better informed consumers who are more confident about engaging with the financial services industry should help to fund the service. The FCA has proposed that advisers should be included in the cohort of firms paying the guidance levy, as they stand to gain from the better informed consumers who understand how regulated advice can help and protect them in their retirement needs. It is also worth pointing out that the FCA has committed to a proportionate approach. The levy will reflect the size of the firm and the nature and extent of its business.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster asked about the Australians’ system and to what extent they were looking to reverse their move to end the obligation to annuitise. The interim report from the Murray review suggests that a variety of different policy options should be considered to improve the Australian retirement income system. These options include maintaining the current system where individuals have access to their pension savings as they wish but with improved provision of financial advice and removal of impediments to product development. As for whether annuities are dead under the new regime, we do not believe so. The Government are clear that annuities will remain the right choice for many at some point during their retirement and believe that many people will still value the security of an annuity.

The right hon. Member for Neath asked how the FCA will protect consumers through regulation. The FCA has a statutory objective to protect consumers. It requires pension companies to comply with its rules and principles, including the principle of treating customers fairly. In creating the FCA, the Government gave it new powers in relation to financial products that it can use to restrict features or products or to prescribe how products must be sold.

I was asked whether the guidance will ensure that people understand the tax implications of flexibility. Guidance will cover the tax implications of accessing pensions in different ways in retirement. This is covered in the standards for guidance on which the FCA is currently consulting. As for whether the guidance will be delivered by qualified people, the FCA is currently consulting on the standards that providers of guidance will need to meet, one of which is that they are suitably trained and qualified.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) and the right hon. Member for Neath asked about flexibility increasing welfare and social care spending. We do not expect the impact to be significant in the context of the steps that this Government have taken to improve the sustainability of pensions spending. For example, regarding the changes to the state pension age and reforms to public service pensions, the estimated net impact of the Government’s key pension policy is a saving of about £17 billion in 2030 in today’s terms.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster asked me to explain the principles behind the Government’s pension reforms. We are putting the interests of savers first, but we also believe that people should be free to make their own choice about how to use their savings. Individuals who have worked hard and saved responsibly throughout their adult lives should be trusted to make their own decisions with their pension savings. The reforms announced in the Budget will deliver this, and it is an important part of the Bill. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Pension Schemes Bill (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Pension Schemes Bill:

Committal

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 6 November 2014.

(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.

(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.)

Question agreed to.

Pension Schemes Bill (Money)

Queen’s recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Pension Schemes Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:

(1) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by a Minister of the Crown;

and

(2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.)

Question agreed to.

Pension Schemes Bill (Ways and Means)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Pension Schemes Bill, it is expedient to authorise:

(1) the imposition of charges for the purpose of meeting expenses incurred by–

(a) persons involved in giving pensions guidance, and

(b) persons having oversight of the giving of pensions guidance; and

(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.)

Question agreed to.

Quality Workplace Pensions

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Thursday 27th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

My hon. Friend raises a number of important points. On kitemarks and the like, we are placing a legal duty on firms to use for auto-enrolment only schemes of a requisite quality, so it will not be a matter of individual employees wondering whether their scheme is good enough—they will know it is good enough because their employer will not be allowed to enrol them into a scheme that is not so. All schemes will be of the requisite standard. He is right that people need places to go for advice in amongst the complexity. Our Department sponsors a body called the Pensions Advisory Service. I encourage all Members of the House to refer their constituents to TPAS, which is a free, expert and very good service. I must confess that I occasionally ring it myself.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I welcome this move. The Minister said, in effect, “We are going to put charges in a vice and we will tighten the pressure.” That sounds as though it might bring tears to the eyes of some of the pension providers, which may be no bad thing. He also talked about shining “sunlight into the dark recesses”. Those are good clichés and this is a good, progressive move forward. However, what is he going to do to ensure that instead of the eyes of people who are enrolling, and will enrol in future, glazing over whenever they think about pensions, they know there is transparency and know what is the likely outcome whenever they come to retire?

[Steve Webb]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that so far the response to automatic enrolment has been excellent. Despite predictions to the contrary, nine out of 10 of those who have been enrolled have stayed enrolled, which is a tremendous vote of confidence. In general, people have more trust in their employer than in financial services providers or even—dare I say it?—politicians, so we are using the employer route such that employers will ensure that the schemes they are using for their workers are of requisite quality. I also assure him that the language I used in the statement, though designed to be colourful, is also backed up by some hard reality.

Payment Scheme (Mesothelioma)

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Monday 17th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

No, because I have to stay within the agreed 3% of the levy. The important thing, as we said throughout the deliberations on the Mesothelioma Bill, is to ensure that the cost is not passed on to new business. I have come under huge pressure not to raise payments to 80%, because of the risk to the levy. However, because we managed to let the contract to a reputable organisation, we have been able to raise payments to 80% without putting the fund at risk.

Although we will review the legislation, we will not raise payments to 100%. If nothing else, the hon. Gentleman has been consistent in pushing for 100%, and I fully understand why. I promised throughout the deliberations on the Bill that I would listen and that nothing was fixed in stone, but raising the level to 100% would push me, or whoever happened to be Minister at the time of such a review, too far.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Everyone will welcome the move to 80%. Can the Minister give an estimate of the cash differential between 75% and 80% for potential beneficiaries?

[Mike Penning]

The move will take the payment up to some £126,000, which represents an extra £13,000. That is in addition to the payment of £7,000 for legal fees, which will be introduced in separate regulations. When Ministers promise the House that they will listen, it is important that they try to do what is requested of them. I stuck rigidly to 75%, because I was not confident that there would be enough money in the fund to increase payments to 80%, let alone 100%. However, I am now confident that there is enough capacity to move to 80%, so when the scheme starts—I hope that that will be on 6 April—all those affected will receive 80%, even though we have been looking at 75%

Child Support Agency

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Sheila Gilmore]

I must say that my case load on this matter is not as large as some people’s appear to be. Some of the cases are almost a legacy because they come from the previous system. I have some long-standing cases, and in my experience, although I do not seek to defend the CSA, it is not necessarily much worse than dealing with other large Government agencies.

I am worried that we are in danger of making another big leap based on a wrong premise. The Minister’s assumption—this also came through in the opening speech by the hon. Member for Loughborough—is that the statutory child support system is the cause of discord and bad feeling between parents. However, if we start off with a wrong premise, we will come to a wrong conclusion.

The hon. Lady cited research that indicated that two thirds of people with family-based arrangements were happy with them, whereas only one third of CSA clients were happy. Some 74% of those with family-based arrangements considered them to be fair, compared with 42% of those with CSA arrangements. However, the crucial point missing from that analysis is that the people who end up using the CSA are those who cannot reach family-based arrangements. Those who can reach such arrangements do so, and we are not comparing like with like if we come to that conclusion and decide that we should basically shrink the existing statutory system. If I understand the situation correctly, those currently within the system will be asked to close their cases and restart the process by trying to get a family-based arrangement. If they cannot, presumably they will come back through the process. The idea is to shrink the system due to the analysis that the CSA is what causes discord between parents.

My experience as a family lawyer is that separation is a very difficult situation. People do not separate because they are getting on well. They do not usually separate because they can communicate well. Often they are angry and often they have good cause to be angry. That anger is not something that is just stirred up either by the courts, which is one of the assertions that we hear, or by the Child Support Agency. People are angry. They do have difficulty getting money, and there are reasons why that will always be quite difficult.

Generally, when people separate, both partners lose financially. It is a financially difficult situation for them, and often it does not get better after a few weeks, months or even years of separation, because new liabilities come into play. People form new relationships and they find it even more difficult to cope. These things influence people’s attitudes to one another, and some people clearly are not willing to come forward to make an agreement. My concern is that we are making the wrong assumption—that having a statutory system is causing discord—and if we start from the wrong point, we will reach the wrong conclusion, and the solution will not be the one that cures the problem.

I would like to make a practical proposition to the Minister. It is drawn from Scots law and could fill a gap. The Government should think seriously about it, especially if they are determined to shrink the child support arrangements. In Scotland, it is possible to have not just the vague, family-based arrangement that everyone talks about, but a legal minute of agreement, which is enforceable in the same way as a court order would have been under the previous system. These minutes of agreement are usually negotiated with the assistance of solicitors. Many people have them drawn up, and they have worked extremely well. As I said, they are directly enforceable. All the same steps can be taken to enforce them as could have been taken with a court order. That model would enhance the system here tremendously. I offer it up, from Scotland, as something that perhaps the Minister will want to discuss with the Ministry of Justice. They may want to discuss how something such as that might be introduced into the English legal system to enable people to have something that, yes, is agreed—it is negotiated and agreed—but also has legal enforceability.

There is one minor point about minutes of agreement that the Minister might also want to consider. Under the previous CSA arrangements, after one year of having a minute of agreement, it was possible to go to the CSA and renege on it—that was possible for either partner, in effect. The Law Society of Scotland suggests that it would be better if that were a four-year period, and I concur. I think that if people have been properly advised and a minute of agreement has been drawn up—people can ask for a minute of agreement to be reduced in certain circumstances, such as if they have been coerced—a four-year period would be sensible.

Another couple of issues have been raised about how the much-diminished statutory scheme will work in the future. These have to do with finding out about the earnings and assets of some of those who are the most difficult to deal with. Under the present regime, the CSA can have regard to evidence about people’s assets and lifestyle that suggests that their income is not what they say it is. My understanding is that the Government propose to remove the effect of two regulations that achieve that at the moment. I believe that they are regulations 18 and 20 of the child support regulations. That, too, would be a mistake, because it would enable people to construct their affairs in a particular way. Regardless of gender, it is very frustrating for the parent with care, who is struggling, to see the other parent living what appears to be a fairly affluent lifestyle, yet able to present official records suggesting that they do not have the money to pay for their child. That makes people angry, but it often has to do with the attitude of the partner. The Government should reconsider that.

Fundamentally to take away the system and say, “We want people to make their own arrangements,” especially if they will not be legally enforceable, is a mistake and underestimates the difficulty of making those arrangements. Furthermore, that is happening at a time when changes to legal aid may make it harder for people to obtain legal advice so that they can turn the arrangements into more formal ones, and to obtain advice on what their rights are. Sometimes—perhaps not always but sometimes—informal agreements are not very good ones. Let us say that one parent says to the other, “I’ll give you 20 quid a week. That’s fine. Just don’t shop me to the CSA.” I know people who have been through that. The weaker partner, the one who has perhaps traditionally been quite afraid—I am thinking not just of domestic violence as it is narrowly defined—may well accept that when actually it is grossly unfair. People need proper support. I am not convinced that the £20 million that is talked about will be sufficient to put in place for people the level of advice, support and mediation that will be required if the Government press ahead with their proposals.

It is regrettable that, because the Government have framed the question in the way that they have and made this assertion—created this straw man—about the CSA being the cause of so much family discord, that will lead them into a situation in which even fewer children will get maintenance.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The hon. Lady is touching on a very important point. Obviously, the position will differ throughout the United Kingdom, but I have found through experience that the turnover of staff at the Child Support Agency is pretty significant, given the difficult task that many of them face. Does the hon. Lady agree that additional training of staff coming into the agency would go some way towards trying to deal with what are very emotive and difficult problems and could help alleviate the issues to which she has just alluded?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I agree. Obviously, we want staff to be well trained, given that they are dealing with very difficult situations. My point was that, if the official agency is to be shrunk to the extent that appears to be the case and people are to be largely discouraged from going down that route, on the assumption that it will be relatively easy for them to reach family-based agreements, that flies in the face of the reality of the situation that many people find themselves in after separation. I am referring to the fact that it is very difficult to conduct these negotiations and that that will allow people who just want to walk away to do so even more easily than they can at the moment. If the answer is to put in support services, they have to be put in at a level that will be effective. Up and down the country, people know that there are often waiting lists to get support and advice and that mediation is not necessarily easily available—and mediation itself has a cost. Not all mediation services are offered free to users.

It is important that we do not throw the baby out with the bathwater and that a generation of children do not lose out as a result of these proposals.

Women’s Aid

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mrs McGuire]

I appreciate that. I may not have explained myself properly. I was saying that there are men who find themselves on the receiving end of domestic violence. However, I fully endorse the hon. Lady’s comment that this is not just a women’s issue; it affects women, but we should all be interested in it. I am more than happy to make that clear.

As I was saying, there is the specific issue of how the benefits system responds. There are then the wider elements that have been highlighted, and there is significant expertise at practitioner and political level on some of them. It is fair to say that some of the issues about the benefits system relate to continuing uncertainty about what the new Welfare Reform Act 2012 will deliver. People who rely on some element of benefit support and who are in or—this is increasingly the case, sadly—out of work face uncertainty, as the Government roll out their welfare reform programme. We have had some pretty robust debates on welfare reform, and I will not go back over them. However, we want to see what can be delivered under the new legislation to make sure people understand what its impact on them will be.

I want, therefore, to deal with some specific points about the impact of the new welfare legislation on women who face domestic abuse or domestic violence. As the Minister will be aware, the benefits system is designed for the many, but it must also show sensitivity to individual circumstances. I hope we all agree that such circumstances are sometimes difficult to anticipate and, even when we do anticipate them, difficult to frame provisions for in primary legislation. I hope that she will be able to give Members and, more importantly, those who face the trauma of domestic violence some confidence that what is being put in place can respond to individual circumstances. The test of any benefits system is not the high-level principles or the high-level legislation, but what the system means to an individual when they are at a point of need and how responsive the system is.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The right hon. Lady has come to an important point. Does she agree that one consideration for women who face the threat, or who are victims, of domestic violence in deciding whether to go to Women’s Aid or other such groups is often the impact that that could have on the benefits to which they or their family are entitled? The female at risk often gives more serious consideration to that than to the fact that she is being abused.

[Mrs McGuire]

I totally agree. That echoes the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown)—he is no longer in his place—who said that, given that uncertainty, women go back go the household where they were abused. If they have never engaged with the benefits system—and even if they have—there is an element of uncertainty about the time frames. It may not be entirely clear what will happen to their child benefit. Who gets the child benefit at the moment? Technically, it goes to women, but that might not be the case in some abusive relationships. As well as having to deal with violence and abuse, women face that financial uncertainty. We should not underestimate how difficult it is for women who are trying to get out of a violent situation not only to have to worry about the impact of the violence on them and their children, but to face uncertainty because they might be stepping off the edge of a cliff and they do not know what will happen. I totally endorse what the hon. Gentleman says.

Will the Minister tell us how organisations that offer hostel and supported accommodation will be treated in the assessment of housing support assistance in the new system? Currently, supported accommodation providers are allowed to breach the local housing allowance cap, because an element in the costs allows them to charge for additional support services, such as those provided by Women’s Aid or similar organisations, although Women’s Aid is obviously the principal provider.

We are seeing a real-terms cut in supported housing costs across the country, and we cannot run away from that. Local organisations that offer accommodation will therefore face a cut in any circumstances. Indeed, there is evidence to suggest that women’s aid organisations are receiving a greater funding cut than local authorities—there is a differential of 4% or 5%. There is therefore uncertainty, and if organisations that offer supported accommodation cannot make up the additional costs, there will be a real threat—this is what my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill was alluding to—to the financial viability and, indeed, the very existence of their hostels.

The Minister understands the commitment of those in organisations such as Women’s Aid who are able to give the support that is needed at a very difficult time; but although that voluntary activity is important, it is not the only element of the support that is given. There are services that have a cost attached to them, and we cannot ignore that.