Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Gregory Stafford Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the Minister for setting out what the clauses do, which is, essentially, to provide for smoke-free places in England.

Clause 136 introduces changes to the Health Act 2006, and specifically updates provisions regarding smoke-free places in England to allow for the addition of smoke-free areas beyond those already designated under existing law. It empowers the Secretary of State to extend smoke-free regulations to more places—and, I would argue, to essentially any place—with the aim of reducing exposure to second-hand smoke and promoting public health.

Although it clearly is the Government’s intention to use these powers to improve public health, they are very wide-ranging. As far as I can see, the clauses give the Secretary of State carte blanche to extend the smoke-free legislation to any place without needing a reason, because the Government did not accept our amendment that it should only apply to places that have a significant risk of actually having any smoke. I understand that the measures allow for greater flexibility, but I would be interested in the Minister’s reasons for the wide-ranging scope.

The Minister has said that he wants to focus on three areas: hospitals, children’s playgrounds and educational settings, and I believe that that is his intention. Unfortunately, over time, that may not be the intention of the rest of his Government, which is a risk for the Committee in allowing these measures to stand.

The Welsh have banned smoking on hospital sites. We heard in our evidence that compliance regarding playgrounds has been very good but that compliance around hospitals has been relatively poor. Does the Minister have any figures to add to that evidence about compliance in Wales? That could be the number of people who have been prosecuted or convicted of such an offence, or surveys from hospital trust leaders on the prevalence in their site, accepting that not all people will necessarily be caught or prosecuted. If we are to be successful, it is not simply enough to write laws in Westminster; there has to be a practical application in the real world. Has the Minister had any conversations with his Welsh counterparts on the perceived reasons why the law on hospitals in Wales has been followed less well than it has been in other areas, so that we can understand why?

The Bill states in proposed new section 4(2) of the Health Act 2006—this is interesting terminology—that if

“the place is used as a place of work or open to the public only some of the time the regulations must provide for it to be smoke-free only when so used.”

That means that if a place is used for the public only some of the time, it can only be a smoke-free place during the time that it is in use. That could lead to a whole queue of people standing outside a hospital. If it were, say, a community diagnostic centre, so it is not open around the clock, or a GP practice, we could have people smoking outside just as people arrive for work in the morning and as the first patients arrive, which would be somewhat counterproductive to the aims of the Bill.

I wonder whether the word “must” would be better off as “should” or “could”, or perhaps we could allow leeway either side for hospitals or schools that are open from a set time. If a school opens at 8.45 am for the children to arrive, when is it officially open and when can people be expected to stop smoking outside it? It seems to me that the risk for children is that people are smoking as they arrive at school, and some children may arrive just before it opens. I remember standing outside the school with my son, waiting for the doors to open before I went to work. This particular question is important. It is sensible that if somewhere is closed and private most of the time, it would not have to be smoke-free except when it is open. However, some thought needs to be given to the detail of that and how it would apply in practice to places that are insufficiently open.

The regulations can also be tailored to different situations. The Bill states that the smoke-free designations can be applied to certain “places or vehicles”, in specific circumstances at particular times or if certain conditions are met. That flexibility ensures that the regulations can address a variety of scenarios and settings, including potentially temporary or conditional restrictions based on factors such as the type of location or event. The regulations also have the option to include exceptions, such as allowing areas within designated smoke-free places to be designated as non-smoke-free, based on the discretion of the person responsible for the area. That would potentially undermine the principle of the Bill, so I would be interested to hear more about that.

Before implementing any new regulations to designate additional smoke-free places, the Secretary of State “must consult” relevant individuals or groups, which again seems sensible. I would appreciate clarification from the Minister on the definition outlined in proposed new section (4)(1), which allows the Secretary of State to designate “any place in England” as smoke-free if it meets the criteria of being “a workplace” or “open to the public”. But “any place” is very broad and could be interpreted to include beaches or open-air public festivals. Does the Minister intend to include other places open to the public within the remit of this legislation, such as public woodlands or national parks? Has he spoken to his counterparts in Scotland about the areas that are subject to the right to roam, and therefore open to the public to some extent? That includes, for example, public footpaths and rights of way through farmland. Could the very remotest piece of land in the United Kingdom be designated smoke-free and subject to legal repercussions thereof, if it were also open to the public?

I want to ask whether the enforcement of such broad measures would be feasible. If every public space, regardless of size, location or usage, was subject to a smoking ban, would it be realistic for local authorities or enforcement officers to monitor compliance across such vast and varied spaces?

In the modern day and with the change in working practices since covid, what counts as a workplace? In the age of working from home, can private homes count as workplaces? If a man sits down with his computer to work on a park bench, as is sometimes done, is that a workplace? If someone is working in an open area on the beach—we have heard that some people apparently do—does that make it a workplace? Does that place alternate between being smoke-free and non-smoke-free, depending on whether the man is typing away on his computer, or whether he is having a little break for a cup of tea?

Our hypothetical al fresco worker could be hashing out his latest policy report, but he could also be having a little break to play solitaire or chess. Would that count as working or slacking? Would that then be a workplace or not? Would the police officer attending the scene have to check that the man is working before issuing a fine to nearby smokers? I suppose playing computer chess could count as work if the man were a professional chess player—perhaps he is. How would the offending smoker or the police officer know what the person near them is doing?

These are somewhat colourful hypotheticals, but I hope I have demonstrated that the clause does throw up a great deal of colourful hypotheticals. For the sake of the Bill’s integrity, I would appreciate clarity from the Minister on the terms used in the clause.

Furthermore, I would appreciate clarification on how we designate the physical borders of a smoke-free area. With three children, I have been to a fair number of playgrounds. Some playgrounds have physical barriers around them, often some sort of knee-high fencing, making it easy to say where the physical borders of the playground are. But some do not—some are play areas within a park where there is no clear boundary between where the play equipment is and the rest of the park. Does that make the rest of the park a playground or not, and where would the edges be?

Given the seriousness of the offence and the significance of the penalties, the Government should ensure that reasonable steps are taken so that people know when they are violating the law. In this case, will physical markers need to be built around every smoke-free area to ensure that smokers know exactly when they enter one? I can think of many village playgrounds local to me where there is no such marking. Has the Minister considered the cost of providing barriers or markings to ensure that people know where the boundary is?

The nature of second-hand smoke throws up another issue. The Minister well knows that the smoker need not be physically present in the smoke-free area for the effects of second-hand smoke to be felt in one. How does the clause propose to seek to address that scenario? If a park is designated smoke-free, and is or is not barriered, but someone is sat there smoking, watching her children play—she wants to be reasonably close to them so she can keep an eye on them, protect them and keep them safe—would she be violating the smoke-free area if her cigarette smoke wafts beyond the bounds of the park? What if the wind blows the other way? Would that then be legal? Are the mother’s actions based entirely on which way the wind happens to blow?

The principle behind the clause is very sensible: smoking is dangerous, passive smoking is a danger to others, and people—particularly children—should not be forced to breathe in other people’s smoke. But the enforcement of this clause requires it to be made very clear what people should and should not do, and where they should and should not do it. I am not entirely sure that the clause is clear enough on that.

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

Like the shadow Minister, I agree with the essential thrust of clause 136, notwithstanding the amendments that I voted for earlier, but there is a clear problem with second-hand smoke. We have seen in studies from Public Health England and the World Health Organisation that even brief exposure to second-hand smoke can increase the risk of respiratory diseases, heart disease, and lung cancer—particularly among vulnerable populations such as children and the elderly, as the Minister outlined.

However, we have to understand that there are clearly differences in how much smoke could be inhaled, depending on the setting. Where air circulation dissipates smoke, such as outside, the risks are probably not as pronounced as they are indoors. Although I do not dispute—I do not think anyone does—the dangers of second-hand smoke in enclosed spaces, the question remains whether outdoor areas such as parks and public squares should be subject to the same restrictions.

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[Andrew Gwynne]

People sitting in a beer garden where smoking is prevalent are breathing in second-hand smoke, but as the chief medical officers reminded the Committee, there is a balance here, and the United Kingdom Government of which I am a member have decided that that balance is appropriate in order to protect the hospitality business. That is why Ministers—myself, the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister—have made it very clear that outdoor hospitality will not fall within the scope of the consultation that we intend to bring forward like the clappers. That is our view and it is what we will do. That is not to say that there is a risk that is mitigated for somebody sitting outside. There is a risk, and we cannot mitigate that risk, but it is the balance that the Government have come to. There have to be trade-offs and, given the precarious nature of the hospitality business, we have decided that we will not consult to extend the outdoor smoking provisions to hospitality. I know that that disappoints the shadow Minister—it probably delights other Members on the Opposition Benches—but that is where this Government are.

The powers in the Bill allow for a change at some stage in the future, when it may well be that the balance has shifted and people no longer desire there to be smoking outdoors in hospitality settings. The hospitality trade may say, “This is such a minority pursuit that it is putting off good people from coming to my restaurant.”

[Gregory Stafford]

Forgive me if I am incorrect, but the Minister is saying that businesses may make the decision that they do not want people to smoke on their premises. They already have that power now, so I am not sure what point he is making.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The point I am making is that industry collectively may come to Ministers and say, “You know what? This carve-out that we’ve been given is no longer needed.” Ministers may well then come to the conclusion that, given that most of these hospitality businesses at some stage in the future are already imposing outdoor smoking bans because that is where their customer base is, we should bring the law into line with that and make it illegal. The provisions are written in the way that they are so that at some stage in the future, when things change, we can change the law, but right now, as I have said on umpteen occasions, we will consult on outside hospitals, outside schools and public children’s play areas, and that is it.

[Andrew Gwynne]

That is why it will be down to the consultation as to what precise details we will bring forward. It is not our intention to include hospitality settings, but the hon. Member has rightly raised that some pubs and restaurants have children’s playgrounds. As part of the consultation exercise, we will have to work out how a children’s play area is defined for the purposes of these measures, so that there is absolute clarity on what constitutes a children’s playground. These are not matters for now; they are matters for when Ministers seek to bring forward proposals. We will have that debate then.

[Gregory Stafford]

I know the Minister is a man of his word. I ask him to be really clear on this, because he has talked about “some point in the future”. Some people’s “some point in the future” may be a very long way off, while others’ may not be such a long way off. Will he give a commitment that, while he is a Minister in the Department of Health and Social Care, he and his colleagues will not bring a consultation to include the hospitality industry?

[Andrew Gwynne]

Well, I hope that I will be a Minister for a very long time, both at the Department of Health and Social Care and with this public health brief, which I absolutely love. I will follow the evidence as and when it appears, but it is not my intention to bring forward changes any time soon. The reason that we are discussing changes now is that the last time that places were designated for a smoking ban was in 2006, and a lot of things have changed since that law came into force in 2007.

It may well be that, in a similar length of time into the future, things have changed sufficiently that the arguments we are having today on hospitality have become obsolete, and that the law needs to be brought into line with the facts on the ground. I hope that I can reassure the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon—I am a man of my word—that it is not my intention, nor the intention of this Government to include the hospitality industry, but at some stage in the future, if things change, it may well be that Ministers do come back to the House on this. I cannot judge how long or short that time period may be, but I politely remind him and other Members of the length of time between 2006-07—when these issues were last being debated—and now, and hope that that gives him some reassurance.

The hon. Gentleman said that I have not been emphatic enough on beaches, woodlands, public parks, rights of way and public squares; these are all scenarios that are subject to consultation at some stage in the distant future. It is not our intention to cover these areas in England. I have been very clear about the three areas that we seek to extend smoke-free places to.

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[Jack Rankin]

It is nice to have a fellow freedom fighter on the Committee—[Interruption.] I am trying to get the Minister to intervene.

My third point is one to which I think the Minister alluded earlier, but I ask him to repeat it in summing up. This part of the Bill will allow the Secretary of State to make decisions without really having the full approval of Parliament. The Minister has said that the Government will consult on the expansion of smoke-free areas, but as I understand it from the drafting, it is not necessary for the Government to consult on expanding vape-free and heated tobacco-free spaces in the same way. I think he might have touched on that point in his remarks, but I would welcome his confirmation.

My fourth point relates to the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham on second-hand smoke. My understanding is that the rationale for smoke-free places, as initially envisaged, was that the smoker is affected as a result of them having made an informed decision, but people nearby are affected who have not. That is the point of the smoke-free place. Cancer Research UK, however, states that there is

“no good evidence that second-hand e-cigarette vapour is harmful”.

Public Health England has also found:

“Compared with cigarette smoke, heated tobacco products are likely to expose users and bystanders to lower levels of particulate matter and harmful and potentially harmful compounds.”

In my view, therefore, the point about second-hand smoke does not make anywhere near the same kind of sense for heated tobacco products as it does with cigarettes.

Even the Bill’s impact assessment states:

“There are currently no legal restrictions in the UK on where a person may vape. However, many businesses, venues, educational institutions, health service providers and public transport providers have voluntarily introduced their own rules preventing vape usage in these locations.”

We all recognise that that is the case. Given that the impact assessment also notes that

“There is currently limited evidence of health harm from ‘passive vaping’.”

should it not continue to be for the proprietors of such venues to make their own decisions, based on the needs and desires of their customers? That is my position.

[Gregory Stafford]

My hon. Friend always tempts me with his libertarian arguments. I am not quite with him on this Bill, but almost. Proposed new section 8B(2) of the Health Act 2006 says:

“Only smoke-free places may be designated as vape-free.”

I understand that to mean that there will potentially be places that are smoke-free but not necessarily vape-free, and I wonder whether that gives him any solace. I am specifically interested in our discussion about introducing vapes in vending machines in mental health trusts. Does he think there is a case—perhaps the Minister will comment on this in his remarks—for vapes to be used as a smoking cessation tool in certain places where we cannot smoke a cigarette or use other tobacco-based products?

[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend gets to the nub of the point that I am making. Vapes can be a tool to help the Government in their desire to create a smoke-free generation, and this legislation could be counterproductive to that, by their own measures of success. Members—certainly those on the Opposition Benches—have to engage with not necessarily the law that is written but how it will be implemented in reality. Businesses are likely to respond to this legislation by just putting up a sticker on the smoking shelter that says it is the designated vaping place as well. That is the risk.

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[Gregory Stafford]

I want to confine my remarks to proposed new section 8D—“Offence of failing to prevent vaping”. I assume that the provisions under section 8D are similar, if not exactly the same, as the ones that would apply to cigarettes and other tobacco-based products. However, there is an issue: it is much easier to spot somebody smoking a tobacco-based product than a vape-based product. Tobacco has a distinctive smell. To be frank, the available products look like cigarettes, cigars and pipes, and we know what they look like, whereas the industry has got better at disguising vapes. Vapes do not have the distinctive smell of tobacco, although they have many flavours as we have discussed, and they do not necessarily look like a cigarette or a similar product.

I am interested in the Minister’s views on whether there will be a different defence threshold for failing to prevent vaping under proposed new section 8D. Subsection (4) says that a defence for a person charged with such an offence is

“that they took reasonable steps to cause the person in question to stop using the vape”.

The question is: will there be a different threshold for those who are sanctioned under the Bill for a tobacco-related offence versus a vape-related offence? That brings us back to burdens on the hospitality industry, retailers and so on. If there is not a differential, again, we will be putting undue pressure on retailers or nightclub owners that we would not expect for tobacco offences. It would be helpful to get some clarity on that.

[Andrew Gwynne]

We have had a good discussion on the clause. I sincerely thank the shadow Minister for the leadership that she has shown over a good number of years on this issue. I am not just saying that because her boss, the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), is in the Public Gallery, gazing his beady eye over the Conservative Benches to see what is happening—I am sure that is precisely what he is doing.

In all fairness to the shadow Minister, she has taken a consistent view on vaping, which in some regards goes beyond the scope of the Bill. I know that it frustrates her, and indeed perhaps one or two Members on my own Benches, that the scope of the Bill does not go as far as creating a nicotine-free generation as well as a smoke-free one. I put on record my thanks and appreciation to her for championing this issue over a good number of years. I know that is why she supports the clause, as she said, and perhaps secretly supports a number of the other clauses that she has abstained on in Divisions—probably to further wind up the hon. Member for Windsor.

On the clause, there is evidence that second-hand exposure to vaping may worsen asthma in children and teenagers. There are also wider concerns about young people taking up vaping and becoming addicted to nicotine. To protect children and vulnerable groups, we are therefore taking powers to consider whether certain places, such as public transport, should be vape-free as well as smoke-free.

It is important that we consider exemptions for certain settings, particularly those with the intention of helping adult smokers to quit. I hope that that reassures the hon. Member for Farnham. That is an important aspect for us to consider, and it will be explored through consultation.

[Gregory Stafford]

Just for those listening, I should say that I am the Member of Parliament for Farnham and Bordon. The people of Bordon will be very upset if they are not mentioned.

[The Chair]

I am sure that that has been noted by Hansard.

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[Jack Rankin]

I would not describe myself as libertarian; I would say I was arguing straightforward centre-right classical liberal opinions, rather than libertarian ones, but we might differ on that. An arbitrary line must obviously be drawn. The same argument could be made about someone idling in a car and people on the street. There is obviously a difference between that and smoking, where we have drawn a line. I acknowledge that I know less about heated tobacco products but, from what I have read, the spill-over effect from nearby users does not reach a threshold to merit state intervention—though I agree that that judgment is qualitative. That is the argument I am advancing. I again make the point to the Minister that heated tobacco, while a recent innovation, has been reported to be positively associated with success in quitting. We should therefore be careful and not treat it the same way as cigarettes in an effort to advance the aim of the Bill, which is to get more adult smokers to use this product and move away from smoking.

[Gregory Stafford]

Like my hon. Friend, I am no expert in heated tobacco products, but is he suggesting that they can also be used as a smoking cessation tool? If that is the case, his argument bears some weight. Does he have any understanding of where in the spectrum of harms—from cigarettes and cigars at one end to not smoking at all at the other, with vapes placed at some point on that continuum—where heated tobacco would sit? Is it closer to traditional tobacco-based products or to vape products? Is it an intermediary step, whereby someone who is trying to quit might move from smoking a cigarette or a cigar to heated tobacco, to vaping, and then eventually to quitting? Is that how he would see it?

[Jack Rankin]

That is effectively the argument I am advancing. In terms of the quantum of harm as a percentage of a cigarette, I do not know. As I understand it, even though we do not fully know yet the dangers of heated tobacco, it is similar to vaping in that we do not want anybody to take it up, but if someone smokes we would prefer them to use it as a cessation device. I understand that that is the way they are marketed.