Ultra-processed Food

Greg Knight Excerpts

Wednesday 21st June 2023 Westminster Hall

[Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the health impacts of ultra-processed food.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I have wanted to have this debate for some time and am grateful for the opportunity to lead it today. I have been deeply concerned about the impact of ultra-processed food on health outcomes and therefore on the NHS. I want to join the debate that others are having in the public domain. We need to ensure that we do not lose sight of the importance of addressing ultra-processed food and its health impacts.

Let me explain a little more about ultra-processed food, as it surprises me how few people know what it is. It is food that dominates the shelves of our supermarkets, much of the food advertising on television, and the multi-buy offers that customers see as they get close to the checkout. It is food that takes up half the average UK diet, with the largest consumption by children. It is food that is linked to heart, kidney and liver disease, cancer, depression and obesity. It is an underlying reason for many poor health outcomes. It is food that has been processed so much that it has little health value; the main ingredients include additives such as preservatives, emulsifiers, sweeteners, and artificial colours and flavours. Those ingredients destroy the integrity of the food itself, but do nothing for its nutritional value, as they are being whipped up into something more appetising with the help of emulsifiers.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does she agree that there is a case for looking again at our food labelling laws, and perhaps for requiring ultra-processed food to carry a health warning rather like the warning required on cigarette packets?

[Suzanne Webb]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention and will come to his point a bit further on in my speech.

Ultra-processed food tends to be high in fat, salt and sugar, and is highly addictive. There is fairly low awareness of what ultra-processed food is, but it is familiar in our shopping trolleys. It includes pizza, ice cream, crisps, mass-produced bread, breakfast cereals, biscuits, carbonated drinks, fruit-flavoured yoghurts, pre-packaged meals, sausages and other reconstituted meat products, and some alcoholic drinks—shock, horror—including whisky, gin and rum. Foods such as plain oats, cornflakes and shredded wheat become ultra-processed when the manufacturer adds sugar, flavourings or colourings. Plain yoghurt is minimally processed, but when sweeteners, preservatives, stabilisers or colourings are added, it becomes ultra-processed.

Although there is no universally agreed definition of ultra-processed foods, the above is a good description. They are all foods that we mainly love, but that are not good for us if they form part of a staple diet, and the UK is one of the biggest consumers per head of ultra-processed foods in Europe. Many of the things I have talked about are things that I have purchased myself and are in my shopping trolley half the time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Suzanne Webb]

Jim, it would be two.

Children and young people are not sufficiently protected from exposure to adverts for unhealthy products. It has been pointed out to me that Government research shows that TV and online advertising restrictions on food that is high in sugar and salt could reduce the number of children with obesity by more than 20,000. I therefore urge the Minister to look at that and bring the timeline forward. I think at the moment it is going to be 2025, but we could and must move faster. There should be a watershed for adverts for both ultra-processed food and products high in fat, sugar and salt, sooner rather than later.

A bigger light must be shone on the manipulative marketing tactics that companies use to lead us into consuming and over-consuming foods that are bad for our health. My office manager and my comms guy are advocates of disgusting microwave burgers, which further strengthens my resolve on the matter. When I first looked at the product that they are addicted to and that they shove in that microwave, I thought, “What is not to love?” It says that it is 100% beef—it tells me three times that it is 100% beef—and with that look, I was hooked. I thought, “I want one of those,” but then I read the side of the packet. It is in fact a composition of beef fat, soya protein, salt, wheat flour, stabiliser E451, dextrose, sugar, egg white powder, yeast extract, something called hydrolysed soya protein, barley malt extract and flavourings. It is 44% beef, so not quite the 100% beef that was advertised. In fact, it is a concoction of emulsifiers, preservatives, colourings and other things, which made it look like the tastiest 100% beef burger in the world. The beef was 100% beef, but it was actually only 44% of the burger itself. That is incredibly misleading. I nearly went out and bought it myself.

The obesity crisis is not helped by the overly aggressive marketing of highly addictive food. Let’s face it: if advertising did not work, companies would not do it. That is what encourages us to go out and buy such products. We saw it in the cigarette market. Changes were needed to advertising, starting way back in 1965, when the poor health outcomes from smoking were being understood. It was many years before one of the biggest health interventions, which was the ban on smoking in public places in 2007. I was one of those smokers many, many years ago. I think I gave up before it was banned in public places, but I can tell hon. Members that smoking is highly addictive, and it was sold to be highly addictive.

When I worked in logistics, the company pushed out the cigarettes into big lorries, which took them to the centres to sell. Even there, packs of 200 cigarettes were handed out to employees as an incentive at the end of the week: “Well done—they have done a great job.” People were allowed to smoke in their offices, although I believe that at the time they were not supposed to. Unhealthy food is now being peddled and pushed in a similar way. We really have to think about that. Something very akin to what happened with cigarettes is happening with ultra-processed food.

[Sir Greg Knight]

My hon. Friend is very generous in giving way. Does she agree that if we are to urge that ultra-processed food should carry with it a label warning, that warning should be in a typeface large enough to be read without the use of a magnifying glass, so people know what they are buying before they purchase it?

[Suzanne Webb]

I do not have the answer to that one. I will leave it to a conversation between the Minister, me and others whether that is the way we need to go with what the labelling looks like. Whatever the decision, I agree that it needs to be clear that that food is not 100% beef—that it is, in fact, 56% manufactured food and a tiny percentage of nutritious food. Something needs to be done to highlight that.

Many people will be saying that they did not know that the foods I have listed were ultra-processed. Let us take those lovely fruit yoghurts. I have been eating them for years and had not realised how processed they were. The simple fact is that you just need to buy plain yoghurt, put some fruit and oats on top and it is a really tasty product.

The impact of the intervention to ban cigarettes in 2007 was estimated by the British Medical Journal to be 1,200 fewer hospital admissions for heart attacks in the year following the ban. In the three months after the ban, there was a 6.3% drop in the volume of cigarettes sold in England. I believe it was around that time—it might have been a few years before—that I gave up smoking. The interventions at the time were working.

Is that what we need to do now? The Minister will be pleased to hear that I am not a fan of the nanny state, but I am a fan of the watershed and that is what is on my wish list. As for the regulators, they need to focus less on the ingredients in our food and more on how the processing of the food sold to us has an impact on our health. They need to address misleading health claims and confusing nutritional information that dominate many products found on supermarket shelves. Indeed, that leads into the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight) about how labelling what is in the product has to be clearer.

Oral Answers to Questions

Greg Knight Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Steve Barclay]

I note the extensive support that my hon. Friend has among parliamentary colleagues, including my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), who has recently added her support to the scheme. He will be aware that we allocated £20 million last year and £30 million this year to address some of the immediate issues, but we recognise that it is a priority and we are working on it.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

13. What recent steps his Department has taken to increase the number of dentists working in the NHS.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Neil O’Brien)]

As well as making it more attractive to practise in the NHS, the number of dental school places is up from 810 in 2019 to 970 in 2021, making it easier for qualified dentists to come to the UK. We are putting through secondary legislation on that and encouraging new centres for dental development.

[Sir Greg Knight]

Is the Minister aware that there is a particular problem in Bridlington in my constituency, where an increasing number of residents are finding it not just difficult to access NHS dental care, but impossible to do so? Recently, a dental practice in the town has closed. Will he agree to meet me on this matter to see what can be done to resolve the issue, hopefully sooner rather than later?

[Neil O’Brien]

Of course, I would be keen to meet to try to address those issues and to build on the work that we are doing nationally.

Draft Water Fluoridation (Consultation) (England) Regulations 2022 Draft Health and Care Act 2022 (Further Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2022

Greg Knight Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 General Committees

[Will Quince]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. Tooth decay is a significant yet largely preventable public health problem throughout the country. Water fluoridation is an effective public health intervention to reduce the incidence of tooth decay and oral health inequalities. The water fluoridation provisions of the Health and Care Act 2022 will come into force on 1 November, and in doing so will transfer the power to initiate new schemes, or to vary or terminate existing schemes, from local authorities to the Secretary of State.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

We should make no mistake about what we are doing here. This is compulsory medication, because water is essential to human life. Will the Minister clarify one matter? Paragraph 7.8 of the explanatory memorandum says that it is not intended that consultations will amount to a referendum, and that decisions will depend on

“a range of factors…including…cogency of the argument”.

Who is to decide on the cogency of the argument: an independent arbiter or some pro-fluoridation fanatic?

[Will Quince]

I will come on to talk specifically about the consultation; then, perhaps in my closing remarks, I will go into a bit more detail about the role of the Secretary of State, which I think is the crux of my right hon. Friend’s question. Of course, we dealt with the fundamental principle of water fluoridation in the debates on the 2022 Act, and we do not want to go over those arguments again.

We have always been clear that, in looking at how we decide how to consult on water fluoridation schemes, public consultation will continue to be an important aspect of water fluoridation proposals, and the draft regulations set out the process that any future consultations must follow. Despite there being no statutory requirement to do so before laying the draft regulations, we of course consulted with the public because we know that some people, including my right hon. Friend, have strong feelings on the subject of water fluoridation and consultations relating to it. We are keen to gather public opinion on our suggested consultation approach.

--- Later in debate ---

[Will Quince]

I will come to that point. The common finding of several authoritative scientific reviews is that there is no convincing scientific evidence that fluoride in drinking water, at levels used in fluoridation schemes, is a cause of adverse health effects. Let me provide further assurance that if the balance of evidence in favour of water fluoridation as a public health measure were to change, a review of the current water fluoridation policy would take place.

I am conscious that I was not the Minister when the Act was passed, but this same point was made during the passage of the 2022 Act. We have 57 years of experience in England and 75 years of experience internationally of water fluoridation schemes. There continues to be no convincing evidence of health harms associated with the levels of water fluoridation use in this country. In fact, what we have seen internationally is more countries moving in that direction because of the benefits of tackling tooth decay, particularly in children.

[Sir Greg Knight]

The Minister is being generous in giving way. What is the duty to monitor and sample water where fluoride has been added to ensure that the dosage of fluoride is not excessive?

--- Later in debate ---

[Will Quince]

I was not avoiding my right hon. and learned Friend’s question, but I do not have an answer for him as my officials have not been able to find one in the short time that they have had. I will certainly commit to writing to him and to any other Committee member who is interested. Of course, if people made challenges or raised concerns on those grounds, they would be given weight as part of any consultation.

I understand that this is an emotive subject and that there are strong views on either side of the debate. That debate has already been had as part of the passage of the Act, but I trust that my answers—notwithstanding the one that I have failed to deliver for my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire—have provided some reassurance on the benefits of water fluoridation and, in particular, on the importance of the consultation regulations. The regulations reflect the consultation responses from the public, and will not restrict those who want to respond to future public consultations on water fluoridation schemes.

I hope that my answers have also provided some reassurance on removing the requirement of the CQC to issue statutory guidance on mandatory learning disability and autism training. Let me be clear: that will not leave service providers without clear information. It will not be removed until it has been replaced with the code of practice.

[Sir Greg Knight]

Will the Minister reassure us that if he writes to any single member of the Committee on any issue that has been raised, he will write to us all?

[Will Quince]

I can certainly give that commitment and assurance to my right hon. Friend. With that, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

DRAFT HEALTH AND CARE ACT 2022 (FURTHER CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS) REGULATIONS 2022

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Health and Care Act 2022 (Further Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2022.—(Will Quince.)

Draft Commissioner for Patient Safety (Appointment and Operation) (England) Regulations 2022

Greg Knight Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2022 General Committees

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

Will the Minister clarify that point? Paragraph 7.5 of the explanatory memorandum states:

“The Commissioner for Patient Safety will be eligible for reappointment”.

Does that mean just one reappointment or multiple reappointments?

[Maria Caulfield]

At the moment, my understanding is that it is for an additional three years, and there is not room in the draft regulations to expand that further. I am happy to clarify that for my right hon. Friend, if he is happy with that explanation.

The draft regulations set out a range of other details relating to the operation of the patient safety commissioner. In summary, the commissioner will produce a business plan covering their key priority areas, receiving funding from the Government, keep proper accounts each financial year, receive remuneration, publish an annual report to be laid before Parliament, and have staff who may exercise any of the commissioner’s functions so far as they have been authorised to do so by the commissioner.

The draft regulations also require the commissioner to appoint an advisory panel to provide advice and assistance to the commissioner. The Government believe that the patient’s voice must be central to everything that the healthcare system does. The patient safety commissioner will play a vital role in promoting the safety of patients in relation to the safety of medicines and medical devices. We believe that the draft regulations provide a sensible set of arrangements that will enable the commissioner to function and operate effectively once appointed. As ever, I welcome the scrutiny of Parliament and Members’ valuable contributions. I commend the draft regulations to the Committee.

The National Health Service

Greg Knight Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Matt Hancock)]

I rise in support of the Queen’s Speech, which has more action on health than any Queen’s Speech in a generation. At its heart it has five major legislative reforms that will set the course of health and social care for years to come. I will turn to each of these in a moment, but I just wanted to address something that the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) said. Let me be completely clear: the NHS is not, and never will be, for sale under this Conservative Administration. The Prime Minister made it abundantly clear and the President made it clear: the NHS will not be on the table.

We know why the Labour party likes to spread this nonsense about the NHS: it has not got anything constructive to say. Labour Members do not want to talk about Brexit, because they have decided not to decide on their position, and instead they are trying to scare some of the most vulnerable people in our society—the very people they claim to represent. The nonsense we have just heard shows that Labour will stop at nothing to hide its Brexit position, which is just for more delay, more confusion and more indecision, and it shows that the Labour leadership is not up to the job of governing the party, let alone the country. By contrast, the Conservative party has protected and nurtured the NHS for 44 of its 71 years. We are the party of the NHS.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

When trying to assess what Labour might do if in government should we not look at the words of Nye Bevan when he said:

“Why gaze in the crystal ball when you can read the book”?

We have the book of the NHS under Labour control in Wales to look at; it is an appalling mess.

[Matt Hancock]

There is no doubt that when looking at the facts of the delivery of the NHS in Wales we see what happens to an NHS under Labour control. I support all those who work in the NHS in Wales—they do a great job—but, sadly, it is harder to deliver the NHS in Wales. There is another argument too: we know that we can fund good public services and the NHS only with a strong economy, and the plans of the Labour party would ruin it.

Mental Health First Aid in the Workplace

Greg Knight Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move,

That this House notes that the UK is facing a mental health crisis; further notes that, according to the Independent Review into Mental Health in the Workplace 2017 commissioned by the Prime Minister, each year 300,000 people with long-term mental health conditions lose their job; recognises that Centre for Mental Health research shows presenteeism from mental health is estimated to cost the economy £15.1 billion per annum; acknowledges this same research shows it costs the economy £8.4 billion per annum for mental health absenteeism; considers that a recent poll by OnePoll found that 38 per cent of people reported being stressed about work; observes that the Health and Safety Act 1974 made it a legal necessity for workplaces to train someone in medical first aid; and calls on the Government to change this law via secondary legislation to provide clarity that an employer’s first aid responsibilities cover both physical and mental health and to add a requirement for workplaces to train mental health first aiders.

It really is a pleasure to speak in support of this motion, alongside its co-sponsors the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) and the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer). The application for this debate was supported by more 60 Members from all parts of the House, and we are very grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for our discussion today.

Following the particularly challenging moments that this House has experienced over the last few days, today’s debate is a salutary reminder that the work of this Parliament goes on, and that we are capable of debating in a constructive and collegiate fashion. Our motion addresses a real and pressing need to support people affected by mental ill health. Our argument is simple. The Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 ensured that every large workplace has someone trained in medical first aid, and that is now an accepted and established part of every office, factory, warehouse, hotel and anywhere else that people work; so why not a trained mental health first aider in every workplace? We want to change the Health and Safety Act via secondary legislation so that an employer’s responsibility explicitly covers the mental health as well as the physical health of their employees. This debate is a true cross-party initiative, calling on the Government to make a small change to the law that would constitute a step towards establishing parity of esteem—real equality between physical and mental health.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

This is an excellent motion. Does the hon. Lady agree that when workplace training on first aid—including mental health first aid—takes place outside the workplace, the employer should be required to give the employee time off during working hours to attend?

[Luciana Berger]

There are many different ways in which this could be implemented. I myself have attended mental health first aid training at the workplace, but I certainly would not be averse to employers giving their staff time off for such training. I will later come to many examples showing that this is already the case with a number of employers, particularly large employers, across the country.

This debate was born out of the “Where’s Your Head At?” campaign, which was launched by campaigner Natasha Devon and supported by Mental Health First Aid England and Bauer Media, which have together collected over 200,000 names on a petition that a number of us delivered to No. 10 Downing Street. I commend those organisations for all their hard work, and pay tribute to their commitment and determination to see this positive change introduced. It really is admirable. Bauer Media—an organisation with radio stations and a number of magazines, such as Grazia—has really taken the idea forward, paying for billboards across the country to promote the campaign. I commend its social action on a matter that, as an employer, it knows would make a difference in its own workplaces.

This really would be a simple shift, but one with a huge beneficial impact on the lives of millions of British workers. No one can seriously contend that there is not a need for such a measure. Hon. Members only have to look at some of the statistics. NHS Digital suggests that one in six adults experience mental ill health, including depression, anxiety and stress-related illnesses. There are around 28 million people in work in our country, so it is not unreasonable to assume that 5 million people in work today are affected. In a recent poll, 38% of people reported being stressed about work. It is a tragedy that, according to the Stevenson-Farmer “Thriving at Work” report—a review commissioned by the Government and published just over a year ago—some 300,000 people with a long-term mental health condition are losing their jobs every single year.

 Orkambi and Cystic Fibrosis

Greg Knight Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Westminster Hall

[Paul Scully]

That is very much the point. Half the people who die of cystic fibrosis are under the age of 31. The average life expectancy for someone born now with cystic fibrosis is 47, so we see how it is starting to extend. When I was at the Cystic Fibrosis Trust just last week, I thought that the two people I was able to meet were just staff of the trust and did not realise they were sufferers. Why was I able to meet them, and why did I not notice? Because they had had lung transplants. In effect, they had pressed the reset button on their suffering. They had fresh pairs of lungs and Orkambi would not necessarily be right or necessary for them. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in identifying that it is for the next generation coming through.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

In view of the national importance of this matter, would one way forward be for Vertex, the drug manufacturer, to be willing to be more flexible on costings and price?

Hospital Car Parking Charges

Greg Knight Excerpts

Thursday 1st February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy), who represents the other side of the Humber bridge, and it is a particular pleasure to support my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). He was an asset to the Front Bench, but he has also shown his campaigning skills when dealing with issues such as this on the Back Benches. We are very pleased that he is once more among us. Let us hope that we can be as successful with this campaign as we have been with one or two in the past. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn), whom I will call my hon. Friend. On this occasion, I agree with every word that my Member of Parliament has said. That does not always happen.

As with so many financial matters, it is a question of getting the balance right. Should we place an additional burden on patients and their families, especially at a time when they are particularly stressed and perhaps in great distress, or should we place the burden on the very limited NHS resources that our hospital trusts are having to manage? As has already been pointed out, some patients and their families can afford to pay, but if they are visiting, for instance, a parent who is coming to the end of his or her life, they will suffer just as much distress regardless of their financial circumstances.

In 2017, the trust that serves Diana, Princess of Wales Hospital in my constituency had an income of £2.28 million from car parking charges. It tells me that there was a surplus of three quarters of a million pounds which was spent on patient care. That is good news in the sense that that is three quarters of a million pounds that it desperately needs, but it has come out of the pockets of people who are visiting the hospital or patients at particularly difficult times. As the hon. Member for Great Grimsby mentioned, we live in an area with many low-paid jobs and this is a real burden on many hard-working families.

I am not going to detain the House for too long, but I would detain it for a great deal of time if I were to read the 64-page guidance the local trust produces for parking on its hospital sites. It is an appalling burden that we place on organisations, be they in the public or private sector, when they have to go to such trouble as to produce guidance of that length on how they operate their car park. It is complete madness.

I also draw attention to the fact that patients in my constituency and the neighbouring areas in many cases have to travel much further than others for their treatment, specifically across the river to Hull. That is an additional cost; they have the burden of the petrol or of bus fares, although public transport is almost non-existent for many of the rural villages in my constituency and the wider area served by Grimsby’s hospital.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a good point: the cost falls disproportionately on those who live in rural areas.

[Martin Vickers]

I thank my right hon. Friend for emphasising the point I am making. Many patients have to travel for perhaps 15 or 20 miles to get to the hospital, and that is an additional burden that they can well do without.

The hon. Member for Great Grimsby mentioned the fact that there is a problem with management, and she mentioned parking in neighbouring streets. I will add the names of a few more of them: Cragston Avenue, St Helens Avenue, Charles Avenue. We know them very well; when I was a councillor for that area people used to complain about cars blocking their streets, and I am sure they complain to their Member of Parliament today.

That is a problem I recognise, and there is also a problem with commuter parking, which has to be dealt with. Tokens have been mentioned, and simple time limits of two or three hours before charges kick in might be another alternative, as well as the flat charge that my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith) mentioned.

I urge the Government to tackle this; it needs Government action to resolve it. It is unreasonable to expect trusts—particularly those like Northern Lincolnshire and Goole, which are in special measures and have major challenges of their own—to do so. An extra burden such as this is something they could well do without. As has been said, savings can be made through better procurement procedures, and that is one possible route. I am sure every Member in the House today could identify one particular saving to meet the £200 million-plus the NHS would have to find. But this is a major problem and a burden on our constituents and it could easily be resolved, and I urge the Government to get on with resolving it quickly.

Oral Answers to Questions

Greg Knight Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Steve Brine]

I thank my parliamentary neighbour for that question. Public Health England is one of the most effective arm’s length bodies with which we work in government, and it will be working with commissioners and trusts across our country to make sure that this new information is out there with pregnant mums and the most at-risk groups. Members of Parliament have an important role to play with local commissioners and trusts, and I know my hon. Friend will play her part in that.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

3. What steps he is taking to increase the capacity and availability of GP services.

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

General practice remains under sustained pressure, which is why we remain committed to increasing the number of doctors working in general practice by 5,000, however challenging that might be.

[Sir Greg Knight]

Does my right hon. Friend not think it is unfortunate that, at a time when GP services are being sustained, local hospital services in some areas are being reduced? Does he share my concern that some NHS trust managers and clinical commissioning groups seem hellbent on removing valued local services from our smaller hospitals, such as at Driffield and at Bridlington in my constituency?

[Mr Hunt]

My right hon. Friend has talked to me extensively about this in private, and I fully understand his concerns. The Government are increasing funding to the NHS, which involves extra money going both to out-of-hospital services, such as general practice, and to hospital services. We expect all areas of the country to find sensible ways for those two sectors to work together.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [Lords]

Greg Knight Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Chope]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and perhaps the Minister will reply to it. If we are talking about genuine consensus—in other words, agreement between local authorities—then we do not need amendment 56, which is designed to enable the Government to intervene when some local authorities do not do as the Government think they should be doing. That is essentially what this is about. We might as well face up to the reality that this is a very centralising part of the Bill because it brings power back to the Government to enable them to change the structures of local government boundaries in areas such as Dorset.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart), if amendment 56 is accepted, could it not, despite the promises from the Minister, be used as a lever against a recalcitrant council to say, “You’d better fall into line or amendment 56 will be brought into play”?

[Mr Chope]

My right hon. Friend knows all about levers, having been a deputy Chief Whip. That is exactly how I envisage this power being used. I am sure that that is why there was an attempt to smuggle it through at the last minute. Now we are, I hope, exposing it for what it is, which is a power grabbed by the Government to try to ensure that they can have the final word and beat their stick against a council that is not doing as they wish it to do.

--- Later in debate ---

Expanding Hull is not an utterly absurd idea—it is not necessarily evil. People sat quietly, the letters of the local papers were not full of it and nobody talked about it in my street surgeries, yet when they were asked 96% of three quarters of the population said, “No, no, no”, to the three questions. I add that to the debate to illustrate just how sensitive we ought to be and how easily this could spiral out of control and cause political difficulty and real dissatisfaction.

[Sir Greg Knight]

Does the experience of the East Riding and Hull referendum lead my hon. Friend to be in sympathy with amendment 56 or against it?

[Graham Stuart]

It leaves me in a position of having profound doubts about amendment 56. I really appreciated the Minister’s interventions setting out what the Government want to do. The police reorganisation under the previous Labour Government was top down and people did not like it. It is not that we are neutral—my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch was wrong to say that the Government have always said they would be neutral. The Government have a position and a vision, but I think it is much smarter to offer reassurances and tell people that, whatever we think, we are not going to push it on them, because we have seen that that does not work. People have to consent to it. There will be difficult council leaders who we will think are being a pain because of their own individual interests, but we should bind our hands and restrain ourselves from just pushing them aside. We need to listen and say to everybody, “Unless you can bang heads together yourselves and get a consensus, we’re not going to come piling in, because we’ve seen where that ends up.”

It might be a Labour Government’s instinct to think that they know better than the people, but it should be a Conservative Government’s instinct to recognise that they do not know better and that even if, in their opinion, the people are wrong—and history might show that they were wrong—it is the people who get to decide, and if they feel strongly about something that should be respected.