Draft West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Debate between Grahame Morris and Chris Philp

Monday 26th February 2024 General Committees

[The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire (Chris Philp)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024.

As always, it is a huge pleasure to serve under your august and benign chairmanship, Sir Graham—I trust it will be benign, although perhaps I should not speak too soon. The draft order was laid before the House on 7 February. If approved, it will transfer the police and crime commissioner functions from the current west midlands PCC to the Mayor of the West Midlands. That would happen following the next mayoral election in the west midlands, which is scheduled for Thursday 2 May 2024, and maintain direct democratic accountability for policing and crime in the west midlands.

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Sir Graham. Could you give the Committee your guidance on the validity and timing of this measure? My understanding is that the west midlands police and crime commissioner has applied for a judicial review, which will not be determined until 7 March. Is it therefore appropriate that we consider this matter in advance of that judicial review?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Philp]

I am glad that the right hon. Lady, from a sedentary position, has clarified that. So when she referred to a referendum in her intervention a moment or two ago, she was in fact referring to the previous police and crime commissioner election. That was, of course, appointing an individual to the position of police and crime commissioner. He may have had a number of things in his manifesto, but I do not think we can in any way construe that as a referendum. There was certainly no question on the ballot paper about transferring, or not transferring, PCC powers. I do not think describing a PCC election as a referendum on this matter is an accurate representation of what occurred.

Let me return to the substance of the issue. Part 1 of the Government’s review of the role of PCCs cemented the Government’s view that bringing public safety functions together under the leadership of a combined authority Mayor has the potential to offer wider levers and a more joined-up approach to preventing crime. Our levelling-up White Paper reinforced that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield pointed to a number of other large cities around the country where police and crime commissioner functions are already exercised by the Mayor—with varying degrees of competence, I would add—and there are good reasons for that. There are efficiencies. The Mayor tends to be a higher-profile figure than the police and crime commissioner. The Mayor can exercise systems-wide leadership over a variety of things that are relevant to fighting crime. Typically, they can offer more effective leadership than a PCC can in the urban area concerned. I am an MP in London. While Sadiq Khan does not do a very good job as Mayor of London in general, he does have a wide range of powers, and the position has the potential to provide wider leadership on issues of crime and public safety than someone acting as a police and crime commissioner alone. We believe that that applies here as much as it does in those other cities.

[Grahame Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Philp]

I will. Perhaps the hon. Member is going to suggest that we transfer the PCC powers exercised by the Mayor of Greater Manchester and the Mayor of London back to a PCC. Perhaps that is what he thinks.

[Grahame Morris]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but I will think of my own questions, if that is okay. I would like to ask about consistency. He is making quite a robust argument about efficiency and lack of duplication. Was it not the Conservatives who introduced police and crime commissioners in the first place? Why is it that in my part of the country there is no attempt to consolidate the elected Mayors and the police and crime commissioners? They are quite separate positions, and I am not aware of any move locally or by the Government to merge them.

[Chris Philp]

Yes, the Government did introduce police and crime commissioners in about 2014, I think, to replace the previous police authorities, and we have introduced a number of directly elected Mayors as well. However, over time, we have consistently tried, where possible, to merge those directly elected functions, and the fact that a directly elected Mayor of Greater Manchester exercises police and crime commissioner powers is an example of that. In this cycle, we are about to have a directly elected executive Mayor of York and North Yorkshire, who will exercise police and crime commissioner powers as well, and we have the Mayor of London doing that too. There is a very clear direction of policy travel to have a directly elected Mayor also exercise PCC powers. I do not hear a single Member in this House suggesting we take the PCC powers off the Mayor of London and have a PCC for London. I do not hear a single Member saying we should take the PCC powers off Andy Burnham in Greater Manchester and have a separate PCC in Greater Manchester—quite the reverse. The direction of travel is the same: to try to consolidate these powers into a single elected individual.

Indeed, we are doing that beyond Mayors. Where we can and where the geography allows, we are trying to merge police and crime commissioner powers with the old fire authorities. To give the hon. Gentleman a recent example, when there was a change to the arrangements in Cumbria County Council, which was previously the fire and rescue authority, we took the opportunity to transfer the fire and rescue authority powers to the police and crime commissioner of Cumbria to make that individual the police, fire and crime commissioner. We have done that in other areas as well, including in Essex, Staffordshire, Northamptonshire and North Yorkshire—so the directly elected Mayor will be the combined authority Mayor and the police and crime commissioner and will also exercise fire authority powers.

The Committee and anyone looking at these proceedings, potentially including the court in a few days’ time, will see that a clear and consistent policy approach is being taken across the whole of England and Wales in consolidating these powers in directly elected Mayors and, analogously, if that is a word, in police, fire and crime commissioners. That is extremely consistent, and I trust that all Members will see that and support it.

In conclusion, although I may of course reply to any points that are raised, the Government are of the very clear, considered view, as part of a long-standing direction of travel—I have mentioned all the other examples—that the exercise of PCC functions by the Mayor of the West Midlands is a significant step forward towards realising our ambition for more combined authority Mayors to take on PCC functions. We think it is more organisationally and operationally efficient. We think it is better value for the taxpayer. We think the Mayor is a higher-profile public figure, whom the public can hold to account better than a PCC—they have a much higher profile. And we think the Mayor can provide much more effective cross-systems leadership on issues concerning police and crime, delivering better outcomes for the public in fighting crime.

The proposed arrangement is more efficient. The Mayor will have a higher public profile, be more readily held accountable and deliver better outcomes. That is why it is our policy not just in the west midlands but across the whole of England and Wales to pursue this approach. That is why I commend the order to the Committee.

Licensing Hours Extensions Bill

Debate between Grahame Morris and Chris Philp

Committee stage
Wednesday 21st February 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Philp]

We would all appreciate a fast passage for the Bill. If somebody wishes to make an application regarding a particular event of international, national or local significance, they can obviously do so, and each will be considered on its own terms. The condition in the 2003 Act is that the event should be

“of exceptional international, national, or local significance”.

No doubt many hon. Members will have ideas about events that might meet the criteria.

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his explanation and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields on the Bill. Could the Minister clarify two points about the scope?

Who would make the application, for example for an extension of the licence on St David’s day or for some other occasion? We might have a St Aidan’s day extension or St Bede’s day extension for South Shields.

Secondly, will it be all licensed premises? Will it include working men’s clubs as well as pubs? I am very much in favour of supporting local businesses; we have had terrible problems in my constituency with the Conservative/Lib Dem-led council introducing car parking charges, which will undermine local businesses, so this is a great opportunity to give them a boost.

[Chris Philp]

On the hon. Gentleman’s second question, yes, the extension applies to any licensed premises—presuming he means a premises licence for consumption on the premises, rather than off-licences—so that would include working men’s clubs. On his first question, essentially anyone can approach the Home Office with an idea for an event that might qualify for the criteria.

[Grahame Morris]

Even individuals?

[Chris Philp]

Yes, even individuals could make an approach to the Home Office. It is not a formal application; they just approach and say, “There’s an event coming up and we think it meets the criteria. If you agree, will you make the relevant negative statutory instrument?” It would be for the Home Office and the Government to decide whether the criteria were met, and the SI would then go through the normal negative process, potentially quite quickly.

The hon. Gentleman reeled off a number of saints’ names. Just to manage expectations, it is worth putting it on the record that this is intended to be a rarely used power. I do not know how many saints there are in total, but I think there are quite a lot, and we would not want this to turn into a back-door extension of licensing hours from 11 pm to 1 am, or whatever it might be, as a matter of routine. I do not think the intention is that this will be used for every single saint in heaven, if that is the right turn of phrase.

[Grahame Morris]

We could do it for Armed Forces Day.

[Chris Philp]

The hon. Gentleman is mentioning ideas from a sedentary position. There are a lot of ideas, but we should have quite a high threshold. It should be a rarely used power, and it would not be right if we had 20 or 30 extensions a year. That would be effectively moving the closing time for pubs on a semi-systemic basis. We should be reserving this power for relatively rare and relatively significant occasions.

I am here as the police and crime Minister, as well as the Minister responsible for licensing. The police have expressed some concern about extensions relating to sporting events—particularly football, but it might apply more widely. They are worried that disorder might result if people get more drunk than they otherwise would. We have listened to that concern and decided that on balance this is worth doing. We will consider each application on its merits as it is made. However, there are two sides to the coin, and before we attempt to unleash a tsunami of applications we should keep in mind that there is a balance to strike.

The hon. Member for South Shields has set out the technicalities very well indeed. I thank her for her diligence and application.

Equipment Theft (Prevention) Bill

Debate between Grahame Morris and Chris Philp

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st February 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Philp]

Yes. The intention is to do it as a minimum for ATVs. As I said, given how strong feelings are on both sides of the House, as expressed on Second Reading and in Committee this morning, I would like us to try to find a way to make it work. I know that Home Office officials are working on that at the moment. When my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham and I spoke to the police superintendent responsible for fighting crime in this area, he was also supportive of going further.

[Grahame Morris]

Tackling the antisocial behaviour of individuals using quad bikes and all-terrain vehicles needs enormous police resource, including specialist equipment and specially trained officers, because those involved ride them in a reckless fashion, endangering themselves and others. If, as was suggested, we can do an early intervention, that would save a great deal of police resource that could be redeployed elsewhere.

[Chris Philp]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The murmurs of assent that rippled around the Committee Room as he spoke indicate that Members on both sides of the Committee agree, and so do I.

I do not want to detain the Committee any further. This is a good Bill. The clauses were eloquently explained by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham and it gives me great pleasure to add my support to that of other hon. Members.

Protection of Retail Workers

Debate between Grahame Morris and Chris Philp

Monday 7th June 2021 Westminster Hall

[Chris Philp]

Thank you. The Committee surveyed 8,742 people, whom I believe were retail workers, asking if they had been assaulted, and many had been. They were asked whether they had reported the offence, and 87%—not quite 100%—of respondents reported it to the employer. The Committee then asked whether they had reported the offence to the police, and only 53%—half of those retail workers who suffered an assault—had done so. In 12% of cases there was an investigation and arrest. That 12% figure is clearly too low, as the shadow Minister and the hon. Member for Blaydon pointed out. Putting a new criminal offence on the statute book does not fill the gap. It is about investigation and prosecution, and that has to start with reporting.

[Grahame Morris]

I raised the Home Affairs Committee report in my brief contribution. I still think that we need to have a specific offence to deter people—my people in Peterlee should not be any less well protected than the people in Peterhead, which is what is happening at the moment. The Committee suggested improved security. Body cameras have been mentioned, and they should be a factor, to give staff confidence, should they challenge someone, that they have a witness to take forward a prosecution, if necessary. Does the Minister agree?

[Chris Philp]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is vital that more people report such offences and that we support the retail community to take steps to detect such terrible crimes that are being committed. The national retail crime steering group—of which the Policing Minister is a co-chair or leading member—is doing exactly that kind of work. The Home Office has also invested £40,000 in the ShopKind campaign, which aims to move in the direction mentioned by the hon. Member for Easington.

On the reasons why people do not report incidents—and why only half of victims report them to the police—there is some data in the Home Affairs Committee survey. By the way, I commend the Select Committee for putting that together. It found 3,444 people who did not report their incidents. That is a lot of people. Of the reasons given—people clearly gave more than one—the top one, cited by 35% of those victims who did not report, was:

“I did not believe the employer would do anything about it”.

That is terrible. The first thing we need to do is to say to employers, “If your employee is assaulted in any way, it is your duty as an employer to make sure that it gets reported to the police.”

Secondly, 32% said:

“I believed it was just part of the job”.

Clearly, it is not. That is obviously a terrible perception, so we need to send out a clear message that assault of anyone is unacceptable. Others said:

“I considered the incident too minor to report”,

so we need to make sure that such assaults are criminal offences and that they are aggravated when the victim is providing a service to the public. Another reason, given by 28% of respondents, was:

“I did not believe the police would do anything about it”.

The Policing Minister is working on that. Of course, every time one of those incidents gets reported, the police should take action.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Grahame Morris and Chris Philp

Tuesday 22nd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

I have already pointed out that the Crown court case load is lower today than it was in 2010 under the Labour Government. I have also pointed out that the magistrates courts, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, are disposing of more cases now than they are receiving: the backlog, or the case load, is going down and has been for each and every one of the past five weeks. The hon. Gentleman mentions custody and the time until hearings; in August, 84% of Crown court cases for which the defendant was in custody were listed for trial before February next year. We are working at pace and investing at pace. The recovery of our criminal justice system after this coronavirus epidemic is well and truly under way.

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

What comparative assessment he has made of levels of (a) violence and (b) staffing in (i) public and (ii) private prisons.

Ministry of Justice Spending

Debate between Grahame Morris and Chris Philp

Thursday 3rd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Philp)]

It is a great pleasure to conclude this debate. I start by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), the Chairman of the Justice Committee, as well as the other Committee members here, for securing this afternoon’s very important debate. When I attended the opening of the legal year on Tuesday, it became clear to me just how many of the senior judiciary in this country the Committee Chairman knows. I will certainly endeavour to listen to him, and to other members of the Committee from both sides of the House, as I embark on my new role.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) and the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous) indicated, justice is of fundamental, vital importance to the functioning of our society. Justice is the foundation of any civilised society. Without justice, there is no freedom, and without the rule of law, there can be no prosperity, so the state discharges few functions that are more important than ensuring that justice is done. I join Members on both sides of the House in paying tribute to judges, lawyers, the police, Crown Prosecution Service officials, court officials, prison officers, probation officials, and of course Ministry of Justice civil servants for their work in making sure that our justice system functions.

As this debate is on funding, I should like to comment on the overall funding figures. A number of Members have referred to a reduction in spending of 40% since 2010. It is important to mention that that figure is based on figures for the 2015 spending review. Since then, there has been additional resource spending on Ministry of Justice matters from a variety of sources, and when that spending is added back in, the real-terms reduction is 21%. That is still a reduction, but of a great deal less than 40%. To put that in context, the British crime survey, which produces the most reliable crime statistics—in fact, the only ones recognised by the Office for National Statistics—finds a 33% reduction in crime over the same period; that is significant, and we should bear it in mind.

That said, there are clearly issues with the way that various parts of our criminal justice system operate that need addressing—issues that Members on both sides of the House have powerfully and eloquently referred to. That is why it is welcome, as some Members have acknowledged, that in the spending review statement made just a few weeks ago in this House, it was announced that the Ministry of Justice’s resource budget will increase from £7.631 billion this financial year to £8.142 billion in the next financial year. That is an increase of £511 million, which is over half a billion pounds, 6.7% in cash terms, or 4.9% in real terms. I am glad that Members across the House welcome that increase. On the capital side, the capital DEL budget has increased from £417 million in the current year to £620 million next year—a 48% increase.

The Department is going through the allocations process to work out where the extra £511 million will go. I heard powerful representations about the probation service from the right hon. Member for Delyn (David Hanson) and the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous), and I think pretty much every Member who spoke in the debate mentioned the prison system. My hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst spoke about the courts system, and many Members discussed the legal aid budget, including the hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves), who spoke powerfully. What has been said in this debate will be carefully looked at as the allocations are made. However, we should remember that the reason why these savings had to be made was the catastrophic state of the public finances 10 years ago, so as we look forward to next year, as the economy continues to prosper and as public finances come under control, I hope that the 2020 spending review can do a lot more for the Ministry of Justice and the various areas that it looks after.

I will now respond to some of the specific points raised in the debate. On prison places, I am delighted that two prisons are now under construction, with 3,360 new places. Construction started just last week at the new prison in Wellingborough, and the Secretary of State turned the first sod of earth with his very own hands. That £2.5 billion programme will, as Members have said, add 10,000 places by the middle of the 2020s.

Members also made reference to the need to maintain and improve conditions in prisons themselves, with the right hon. Member for Delyn and the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) both referred specifically to the conditions within prisons. The Government fully recognise that issue, and I can confirm today that, in addition to the spending review 2019 figures that the House heard a few weeks ago, an extra £156 million will be spent next year expressly on prison maintenance and conditions. That is a 75% increase across the capital and resource budgets on the amount planned in the spending review, so I am sure that everybody in the House who raised the important matter of prison maintenance will be pleased to hear that.

Several Members mentioned the number of serving prison officers, including the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) a few moments ago. Members will therefore be pleased to hear that, as of June this year, there were 22,321 serving prison officers, which is an increase of 4,366 since 2016. The shadow Justice Secretary said a moment ago that 2,500 extra officers were announced in 2016, so I am pleased that we have delivered almost double that.

The hon. Member for Hammersmith talked about an important trial that took place in 10 of the most challenging prisons to try to improve prison safety and address, for example, assaults on prison officers. The trial published its results in August this year, and assaults fell by 16% and positive drug tests by 50% across those 10 prisons. Those are important results, and I hope that the pilots can be expanded. I will certainly be passing that point on to the Minister of State for Prisons and Probation.

We heard a bit less about our courts than about prisons, but they are also extremely important, with my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst drawing particular attention to them. The digitisation process is not, as he said, a panacea. It is part of the solution, not the whole solution, but it is welcome that uncontested divorce proceedings, probate proceedings, the issuance and response to civil money claims and minor pleas can now all be done online, saving both participants in the criminal justice system and the court system itself a great deal of time and money. The common platform designed to make criminal cases run more effectively and efficiently between the police, the CPS and the courts will start to be rolled out in the first half of next year. That will do more to make the courts run more efficiently.

My hon. Friend the Select Committee Chairman mentioned issues with sitting days and maintenance in the court system, which I recognise. As the Minister with responsibility for courts rather than prisons, I will of course make the case for sitting days and for the maintenance programme in the court system as we go through the allocation process in the coming two or three months to divide up that half a billion pounds of extra money.

On court closures, which the shadow Secretary of State raised a few moments ago, the courts that were closed—those that were consulted on in 2015—were running at about one-third utilisation, partly because of the one-third reduction in BCS crime since 2010. Clearly, having courts running at only one-third utilisation does not make a lot of sense, but before there are any further closures, there will be a consultation process and extremely careful thought, for the access to justice reasons that he and other Members mentioned.

Legal aid was mentioned by a number of Members, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Cheltenham and for Bromley and Chislehurst, and the hon. Members for Lewisham West and Penge and for Hammersmith. I am pleased to remind the House that last year the rates for criminal barristers were increased by around 10%—that was a £23 million commitment—and, as Members said, the criminal legal aid review is under way. In fact, some parts of that review, because they are so urgent, will report early: the parts related to unused material, cracked trials, paper hearing cases, pre-charge advice and payments for sending cases to the Crown court will report next month. The rest of the review will report in the summer of next year, and I hope it will address some of the concerns hon. Members raised about the legal aid system.

The hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge mentioned victims. They are very important—particularly victims of sexual assault. The victims and witnesses budget is £92 million, and I am sure she will join me in welcoming last week’s announcement of an extra £5 million specifically to help victims of sexual violence.

Let me conclude with sentencing, which the Lord Chancellor and I have responsibility for. I support the change in the automatic release point for standard determinate sentences from half to two thirds, because I think the public expect someone who is sentenced to serve the majority of their sentence. Releasing them at the halfway point undermines public confidence in the sentence that is handed down. The change aligns the release point with the discretionary release point for extended determinate sentences, at two thirds. That will, of course, apply only to the more serious cases; it will not apply to all cases where a standard determinate sentence is handed down.

[Grahame Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Philp]

I would love to, but I only have a few seconds left. I would love to take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman on a future occasion.

On less significant offences, I recognise the extremely high reoffending rate—60%—that Members referred to. As the Minister responsible for sentencing, I will look very carefully at expanding trials in which treatment, in particular for drug addiction, alcohol addiction and mental ill health, is put at the heart of sentencing and rehabilitation. There is much more we can do to learn from those trials and from countries around the world where more effective treatment is the key to reducing reoffending rates. That is my personal commitment to the House this afternoon.

It has been a great pleasure to participate in the debate. I look forward to hearing the Select Committee Chairman conclude it.