Draft West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024
(9 months, 3 weeks ago)
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The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire (Chris Philp)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024.
As always, it is a huge pleasure to serve under your august and benign chairmanship, Sir Graham—I trust it will be benign, although perhaps I should not speak too soon. The draft order was laid before the House on 7 February. If approved, it will transfer the police and crime commissioner functions from the current west midlands PCC to the Mayor of the West Midlands. That would happen following the next mayoral election in the west midlands, which is scheduled for Thursday 2 May 2024, and maintain direct democratic accountability for policing and crime in the west midlands.
Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)
On a point of order, Sir Graham. Could you give the Committee your guidance on the validity and timing of this measure? My understanding is that the west midlands police and crime commissioner has applied for a judicial review, which will not be determined until 7 March. Is it therefore appropriate that we consider this matter in advance of that judicial review?
The Chair
I cannot comment from the Chair on the judicial review but, as far as I am concerned, it is entirely in order for the Government to bring this matter before the House and the Committee.
Chris Philp
Thank you, Sir Graham. The incumbent PCC for the west midlands will continue to exercise his functions until his elected term of office ends, serving his term of office in full. The Mayor, from the point of taking office on 7 May, following the mayoral election, will act as the single, directly elected individual responsible for holding the chief constable and the police force to account, and will be directly accountable to the people of the west midlands.
The Mayor of the West Midlands will be responsible for holding the chief constable to account in the way a PCC ordinarily would. Their functions will include issuing a police and crime plan; setting the police budget, including the PCC council tax precept requirements; appointing and, if necessary, suspending or dismissing the chief constable; addressing complaints about policing services; providing and commissioning services for victims and vulnerable people; and working in partnership across the whole system, just as a number of Mayors of combined authorities do, including the Mayor of Greater Manchester, which you will be very familiar with, Sir Graham.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
Thank you, Sir Graham, for allowing a Member of Parliament from the west midlands to speak. Further to the point of order made by my hon. Friend the Member for Easington, could I ask the Minister what legal advice has been taken on whether the Government are acting ultra vires, if the court decides that the consultation process the Government have belatedly undertaken has not been followed correctly?
Chris Philp
The question of ultra vires relates to whether the Government have a statutory power to act in a particular situation. The Government quite clearly do have a statutory power to act by bringing forward this order. The judicial review concerns the nature of the consultation, which is a separate question. I can tell the right hon. Lady that the Government believe that the consultation was properly conducted, and we will vigorously and robustly defend the judicial review.
Valerie Vaz
The issue of whether the Government are acting lawfully is a very serious one. My question was whether the Government had taken legal advice on that point, given that judicial review proceedings are pending and the court will hear the whole case on 7 March. The Minister talks about consultation, but could he say whether the people of the west midlands actually wanted this process and what the results of the consultation were?
Chris Philp
I have already answered the right hon. Lady’s first question: the Government are very clear that there is a lawful basis on which to bring forward this order in statute. We will also robustly—and, I trust, successfully—defend the judicial review relating to the consultation, which is a separate question. On the outcome of the consultation, about 7,000 replies were received, which is of course a tiny fraction of the population of the west midlands. The responses were fairly evenly split: I think it was 50% against, 46% in favour and 4% undecided, so it was pretty even. However, as the right hon. Lady will know from her long experience in the House, the Government will take the consultation responses into account when they make their decisions. This is not a vote or a referendum, and it is not that the largest number of responses wins; the quality of the responses and the arguments advanced in them will be carefully considered before the Government—in this case, the Home Secretary—take their carefully considered decision.
Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)
On the quality of the responses, the Minister will know, as I do as a west midlands MP, that one quite concerning thing was the number of copy-and-paste responses that seem to have come out of the consultation—as if someone was trying to tee it one way. Will my right hon. Friend reiterate the point he made about the quality of the responses to the consultation and ensuring that they are dealt with in an accurate way?
Chris Philp
Yes, absolutely. We take into account the quality and weight of the arguments, rather than just the number. A number of copy-and-paste responses appear to have been organised, and that is something we were aware of in considering the responses.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
On that point, will my right hon. Friend give way?
Valerie Vaz
On a point of order, Sir Graham. I understand that the hon. Member for Lichfield has a connection to the Mayor, and I wish that he could state what that is. Should he or should he not be taking part in the proceedings?
Michael Fabricant
Further to that point of order, Sir Graham. I am really grateful to the right hon. Lady for pointing that out. Legally, I am under no obligation, as I understand it—perhaps you can clarify this, Sir Graham —to declare an interest, because there is no pecuniary interest whatever. I am more than happy to say that Andy Street is a friend of mine, and I am sure he is a friend of many others. Indeed, I like to think I am a special friend of Andy Street’s, and I simply state that for the record.
The Chair
The point of order and the point raised further to it are not a matter for the Chair. It is for every Member of Parliament to reach a decision on what should and should not be declared in debates or elsewhere under the code of conduct. Any Member is, of course, at liberty to consult the Registrar of Members’ Financial Interests if they have any questions about that, but the points raised are not a matter for the Chair on this occasion.
Michael Fabricant
On the number of cut-and-paste responses, it might be helpful to point out that, of the responses from the few people who actually took part in the consultation, over 900 were duplicates, and all of them said they did not want Andy Street. It was interesting that there seemed to be an assumption—I cannot think why—that Andy Street would be the Mayor after the election.
Chris Philp
Indeed. The copy-and-paste responses were on the negative side. Of course, if one discounted those, the balance of replies would have been different, wouldn’t it? It is important to stress that we do not know who the Mayor will be after the election. The election will take place, and the people of the west midlands will decide who will be the Mayor, exercising mayoral functions and, if the order is successful, PCC functions as well.
That is important, because the West Midlands police force is one of only a small handful of police forces across England and Wales in so-called special measures—it is called “formally engage”, but in substance it is special measures. I would also add that West Midlands police force is, I think, the second worst-performing police force in the country when it comes to detecting and clearing up crime. It strikes me that there is a great opportunity to improve the performance of West Midlands police force under new management, whoever the Mayor may be following the election on 2 May.
Let me make some more progress.
Valerie Vaz
Will the Minister give way on the consultation, because it is important?
Valerie Vaz
The Minister really is, but this is important, and it is our job to question him—I thought that was what we were here for. The consultation took place over Christmas. Those are never good consultations, because people have other things to do. The Minister says there were just 7,000 responses, but I think that is quite a lot. Could he clarify what he means by “cut and paste”? If the question is, “Do you want this to happen?”, the answer is going to be only either yes or no. By “cut and paste” does he mean just a yes or a no? Lastly, there was a referendum on this very proposition in 2021 and the people of the west midlands decided against it.
Michael Fabricant
I understand that the last time the consultation was done, they were strongly supportive of the Mayor. They thought it was a waste of money, actually.
Michael Fabricant
No, I am intervening. The right hon. Lady keeps intervening, so I am sure she is not saying that I should not intervene, with the Minister’s permission. Am I not correct that, in fact, people were overwhelmingly supportive? Labour Mayor Sadiq Khan, Labour Mayor Andy Burnham and Labour Mayor Tracy Brabin all have control over the police, too. It saves money. It is not meant to be a job-creation scheme.
Chris Philp
My hon. Friend is quite right. Let me turn to some of those questions. The consultation period ran from 20 December to 31 January. It will not escape eagle-eyed Committee members that that encompasses the entire month of January, which by no stretch of the imagination can be described as “over Christmas”.
The right hon. Member for Walsall South referred to a referendum. I do not know if she was referring, perhaps, to the previous police and crime commissioner election—
Chris Philp
I am glad that the right hon. Lady, from a sedentary position, has clarified that. So when she referred to a referendum in her intervention a moment or two ago, she was in fact referring to the previous police and crime commissioner election. That was, of course, appointing an individual to the position of police and crime commissioner. He may have had a number of things in his manifesto, but I do not think we can in any way construe that as a referendum. There was certainly no question on the ballot paper about transferring, or not transferring, PCC powers. I do not think describing a PCC election as a referendum on this matter is an accurate representation of what occurred.
Let me return to the substance of the issue. Part 1 of the Government’s review of the role of PCCs cemented the Government’s view that bringing public safety functions together under the leadership of a combined authority Mayor has the potential to offer wider levers and a more joined-up approach to preventing crime. Our levelling-up White Paper reinforced that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield pointed to a number of other large cities around the country where police and crime commissioner functions are already exercised by the Mayor—with varying degrees of competence, I would add—and there are good reasons for that. There are efficiencies. The Mayor tends to be a higher-profile figure than the police and crime commissioner. The Mayor can exercise systems-wide leadership over a variety of things that are relevant to fighting crime. Typically, they can offer more effective leadership than a PCC can in the urban area concerned. I am an MP in London. While Sadiq Khan does not do a very good job as Mayor of London in general, he does have a wide range of powers, and the position has the potential to provide wider leadership on issues of crime and public safety than someone acting as a police and crime commissioner alone. We believe that that applies here as much as it does in those other cities.
Chris Philp
I will. Perhaps the hon. Member is going to suggest that we transfer the PCC powers exercised by the Mayor of Greater Manchester and the Mayor of London back to a PCC. Perhaps that is what he thinks.
Grahame Morris
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but I will think of my own questions, if that is okay. I would like to ask about consistency. He is making quite a robust argument about efficiency and lack of duplication. Was it not the Conservatives who introduced police and crime commissioners in the first place? Why is it that in my part of the country there is no attempt to consolidate the elected Mayors and the police and crime commissioners? They are quite separate positions, and I am not aware of any move locally or by the Government to merge them.
Chris Philp
Yes, the Government did introduce police and crime commissioners in about 2014, I think, to replace the previous police authorities, and we have introduced a number of directly elected Mayors as well. However, over time, we have consistently tried, where possible, to merge those directly elected functions, and the fact that a directly elected Mayor of Greater Manchester exercises police and crime commissioner powers is an example of that. In this cycle, we are about to have a directly elected executive Mayor of York and North Yorkshire, who will exercise police and crime commissioner powers as well, and we have the Mayor of London doing that too. There is a very clear direction of policy travel to have a directly elected Mayor also exercise PCC powers. I do not hear a single Member in this House suggesting we take the PCC powers off the Mayor of London and have a PCC for London. I do not hear a single Member saying we should take the PCC powers off Andy Burnham in Greater Manchester and have a separate PCC in Greater Manchester—quite the reverse. The direction of travel is the same: to try to consolidate these powers into a single elected individual.
Indeed, we are doing that beyond Mayors. Where we can and where the geography allows, we are trying to merge police and crime commissioner powers with the old fire authorities. To give the hon. Gentleman a recent example, when there was a change to the arrangements in Cumbria County Council, which was previously the fire and rescue authority, we took the opportunity to transfer the fire and rescue authority powers to the police and crime commissioner of Cumbria to make that individual the police, fire and crime commissioner. We have done that in other areas as well, including in Essex, Staffordshire, Northamptonshire and North Yorkshire—so the directly elected Mayor will be the combined authority Mayor and the police and crime commissioner and will also exercise fire authority powers.
The Committee and anyone looking at these proceedings, potentially including the court in a few days’ time, will see that a clear and consistent policy approach is being taken across the whole of England and Wales in consolidating these powers in directly elected Mayors and, analogously, if that is a word, in police, fire and crime commissioners. That is extremely consistent, and I trust that all Members will see that and support it.
In conclusion, although I may of course reply to any points that are raised, the Government are of the very clear, considered view, as part of a long-standing direction of travel—I have mentioned all the other examples—that the exercise of PCC functions by the Mayor of the West Midlands is a significant step forward towards realising our ambition for more combined authority Mayors to take on PCC functions. We think it is more organisationally and operationally efficient. We think it is better value for the taxpayer. We think the Mayor is a higher-profile public figure, whom the public can hold to account better than a PCC—they have a much higher profile. And we think the Mayor can provide much more effective cross-systems leadership on issues concerning police and crime, delivering better outcomes for the public in fighting crime.
The proposed arrangement is more efficient. The Mayor will have a higher public profile, be more readily held accountable and deliver better outcomes. That is why it is our policy not just in the west midlands but across the whole of England and Wales to pursue this approach. That is why I commend the order to the Committee.
Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I start by confirming that we do not intend to divide the Committee on this statutory instrument, but that is because we agree with the principle and not the way the Government in which have carried out the process, and I will go into some detail on that. Today’s debate has not covered the Government in glory, and there remain some significant questions for them to answer.
The Minister was very robust in his response, but I do not think that that energy was particularly matched with substance when he was answering Members’ questions, and he might reflect on that when he responds, because there are legitimate concerns. I have been to many of these Committees, and perhaps those on the Home Office Front Bench are a bit more energetic than those on the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Front Bench, but this has been one of the most engaged Committees I have been to, because of the process and the way it has been handled, and I will go into some details on that.
Labour is consistent in its support for directly elected Mayors for our combined authorities, and it has long supported aligning the powers where they are coterminous with those of the police and crime commissioner. We supported it for the Mayors of Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, and although the model is different in London, we see similar powers there. We have supported the same for York and North Yorkshire, and we supported the proposal for South Yorkshire too. So there has been consistent support for bringing those powers together over a number of SIs.
Chris Philp
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has found the debate energising and engaging—we aim to keep him entertained. He mentioned South Yorkshire, and I should have said that it is the Government’s intention to bring forward a statutory instrument rather like this one in the very near future to do the same for South Yorkshire as we are doing for the west midlands. It is only right to put that on the record, because we are taking a consistent approach.
Jim McMahon
On the basis of today’s exchanges, I hope that lessons are learned from the consultation and public engagement in the west midlands and that those are applied to the South Yorkshire consultation before that SI comes forward. It is important that we bring the public with us. Let us not fool ourselves: not every member of the public talks about these issues over their cornflakes, but those who are interested will want to know that, where they have expressed concerns, those have been taken on board. I heard the exchange earlier about “copy-and-paste responses”. We should not discount those. If people have taken the time to submit a view, it cannot be discounted. I heard the Minister—perhaps I misheard him—saying, “Well, if you discount all the negative views, what was left was quite positive.” Well, of course, that would be the case in every consultation, but I am not sure that it is quite in the spirit of—
Chris Philp
For the record, I did not quite say that. I did not talk about disregarding all the negative responses; I referred specifically to the copy-and-paste ones. However, I would like to make it clear for the record—
Chris Philp
There were more negative responses than just the copy-and-paste ones. I would like to make it clear for the record that the Government carefully considered all the responses, regardless of whether they were copy-and-paste ones or not. It is very important that anyone reading the report of our proceedings understands that.
Jim McMahon
I appreciate that clarification, but I think we all got the gist of where the mood was on that. I do think that this is a problem with how Governments, not just in Westminster but more generally, do politics in the UK. We start off with a predetermined view, or even a predetermined outcome, we go out to consultation, which is a paper exercise, and we do not adequately change our position when new evidence comes to the light. Politics needs to learn that listening and acting are not always the same as an embarrassing U-turn. I say that as a point of principle rather than about anything in particular, but I thought it was worth raising.
It is pretty clear that the Government have not brought on board widespread support on this issue in the way we have on other areas, and there are a number of questions that fall from that. Devolution is not just about doing things to people or imposing the will of central Government, based on what they already believed to be the outcome; it is about the Government working with local people to co-produce the outcome that is right for their area. So my questions for the Minister are as follows. What plans do the Government have to consult local authorities further, or do they conclude that the matter is now done and dusted? Before pressing ahead, will the Minister commit to a further formal consultation that commands the confidence of the west midlands region?
As the police and crime commissioner for the west midlands has pointed out, the Government have made a complete mess of the whole process, and I understand that an application for a judicial review has been submitted that will be considered next week. I know that that is a separate process, and I do not intend to go into the legalities, but the situation as it stands is remarkable, and not one I have faced in previous SIs on devolution matters.
Despite failing to secure the mandates needed in ’19 and ’21, the Conservatives decided to legislate to remove the requirement for democratic approval in 2023. On 6 December 2023, the Home Secretary approved the transfer without the lawfully required public consultation. The Home Secretary subsequently and retrospectively decided to launch a public consultation, which went against the outcome that the Government wanted, yet they decided to press ahead anyway. We are nine weeks before the mayoral and PCC elections and the administrators, the candidates and the parties still have no idea what is going to take place. They just feel very much as though it has been rushed to try to meet the deadline of the election for political purposes, rather than it genuinely being about due process and public engagement in a meaningful way. What legal advice have the Minister or his colleagues in the Home Office sought regarding the approach taken by the Government? Will they publish the legal advice in full? This whole discussion feels quite symbolic of the Government’s limited approach in general, tinkering with the structures and shifting significant powers between existing bodies, rather than away from Westminster or Whitehall down to communities at a closer level. It stands as a matter of fact that devolution under this Government is fragmented, piecemeal and has not gone far or fast enough. The powers and resources do not touch the sides of what is required for communities to have control over their own areas and futures.
Labour would push power out of Westminster with a take back control Act that gives communities a direct say in their future. It would start by giving all Mayors the powers and flexibility to turbocharge growth in their areas, including over planning and housing, transport, net zero and adult education and skills.
Grahame Morris
I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend’s flow, but will he give an opinion? There is a plethora of different arrangements; apart from my own region, I was just looking at Liverpool. There is Greater Manchester and Merseyside, which has a separate police and crime commissioner, as well as Steve Rotheram, the elected Mayor. There are issues with the consultation, and the members of the combined authority who were asked did not support merging the two. In the circumstances, would it not be sensible for the Committee to defer making a decision until after the judicial review has been considered on or after 7 January? Does my hon. Friend support that request for a deferral?
Jim McMahon
There are two separate points there. The first is on whether there ought to be uniformity or it should be accepted that there are different powers in different places. The Labour Front-Bench position is that where boundaries are coterminous in a place with a police and crime commissioner and a directly elected Mayor of a combined authority, both powers should be brought together with local support and consent. Where they are not coterminous, it would not be right for a Mayor in one area to take on political powers that transcend the boundaries of the combined authority in that respect. That is certainly the issue in Merseyside.
The other, separate issue, which I touched on, is a fair one: given the judicial review, should the Government press ahead or not? Certainly, the advice that we have taken is that they are two linked but separate processes. Parliament and the Government will carry on with their process, and the courts will make a judgment on the JR and its merits. It will or will not have an implication, but that is no reason not to progress at this point given the advice we have had.
I certainly take the power of the objection and the concern about the way in which things have been done, because it is a unique situation in which there are such legitimate concerns. There is a danger that the concerns raised are dismissed because the Government have the votes to get the change through regardless, which would be a mistake. If we do not bring people with us and convince them that it is the right thing for their area and can make a positive difference, and it is done despite, not with, the will of local people, that is not the road to empower people to make a change for their area.
Michael Fabricant
I am listening to the argument presented by the hon. Gentleman. He says there is a will against it locally and so on and so forth; how can he say that? We have the objection of some politicos who do not like the idea that perhaps they may lose their job. We have 7,000 people out of 3 million—I will repeat that: 7,000 people out of 3 million—who responded. That is hardly a majority at all saying that they do not agree with it. The majority of people just want us to get on with the job.
Jim McMahon
With respect, as I touched on previously, although these are not the types of issues that dominate household conversations and inspire people—they have other things to get on with—I suggest that the hon. Gentleman looks at the responses to the consultation on the creation of the West Midlands Mayor in the first place, to which I say there would have been a comparable number. That is not a reason to do it or not to do it; my point is that when people make a representation, it should be taken in good faith. Whether they are for or against, if people make substantively fair points, they should be taken on board. The point about due process, local engagement and bringing people with us on that journey has been made, and it is a fair one. Without pre-empting or getting ahead of the judicial review, there is a reason why it was brought about: because there are concerns about that process.
Labour would offer all places the right power in the right places to negotiate with Government for powers that have been devolved elsewhere. We of course recognise that local government—the building blocks on which devolution is built—is in a fragile state, and its funding settlement has given rise to a number of concerns on that front, but we believe that devolution is the way forward and that it really does answer the question of how people can feel far more power and agency in the places where they live and that they care about.
Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)
I rise to support the legislation because I firmly believe that it is consistent with the Government’s policy. The merger will improve standards and efficiency, and I believe it will also help to cut crime in the west midlands. Crucially, it will enable the Mayor—whoever that is after the May elections—to set the West Midlands police budget, to appoint chief constables and to issue a policing plan.
In constituencies like mine, Aldridge-Brownhills, things like this really do matter to our residents. The elected Mayor currently has devolved powers in areas such as transport, regeneration, housing and skills, which are all very much about people, place and communities, so it absolutely makes sense to combine the role with that of the PCC. At the end of the day, if it is good enough for London, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, why is it not good enough for the west midlands? Particularly given the size of the west midlands region, it just no longer works to have a separate PCC.
We often talk in this place about the really complex issues that need to be tackled, such as knife crime and violent crime, which need a much more joined-up approach. That is a further reason why combining the two roles would enable much more joined-up thinking at a regional level. I have to say that we currently have a PCC who is acting with very little regard to communities, certainly in areas such as mine, on the periphery of the west midlands—I sometimes wonder whether he actually knows where Aldridge-Brownhills is, but never mind—as demonstrated by his determination to push ahead with the closure of the Aldridge police station, putting politics before people and communities. I believe that combining the role of the Mayor and the PCC will result in a much more holistic, community-focused approach.
Jim McMahon
As a matter of principle, the police and crime commissioner is not here to defend himself against or rebut the argument that is being put forward against him. We can of course make the point on policy, and have a difference where differences exist, but let us not make it too personal by criticising an individual—from any party—who is not here to defend themselves.
Wendy Morton
With all due respect, I think that others in the room have made things personal, perhaps without mentioning a name. I am standing here to defend my constituency and to make sure that I get the best for Aldridge-Brownhills.
Fundamentally, I come back to my point that combining both roles under the leadership of one person—we do not know who that will be after the May elections, and I am not being presumptuous at all—will enable a greater, more joined-up approach that will benefit communities and our constituents, with a much greater focus on them. We need this to happen and to get on with it. Let us get this done. We have the opportunity to see that happen and to deliver for our constituents.
Shaun Bailey
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I start by commending some of the comments and the tone of the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton. He took a measured approach to this issue. I appreciate that we are not discussing his geographic area, but he can see how this merger can work. Greater Manchester has gone on a journey, and we have seen consistency there. I appreciate the fact that Greater Manchester has had its issues—we know that and it has been excepted—but I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that, as he touched on to a degree, if we are to see the real genesis of some of these areas, devolution requires more responsibility to come down. We can go back and forth over what that looks like, but granting powers such as those in the legislation before us is a really important part of that.
I must say that the opposition to this change from colleagues in the west midlands just sounds like people trying to save a comrade. That is the brutal part of it. I ask colleagues from the west midlands whether they voted for Comrade Foster in the mayoral candidacy selection last year—the contest in which he came third. That in itself is an indictment of where we are. I have seen exactly what the opposition to the change comes down to: it feels to me, and to many of us across the west midlands, that it is to try and save a mate, and nothing more.
We talk about consistency and the evolution of our areas. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills and my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield touched on, the west midlands is a region of 3 million people. It is the second largest urban conurbation in England and Wales—probably in the United Kingdom—and rightfully wants to evolve to the next level of what devolution looks like, so the opposition seems completely out of sorts. The contrast is also quite stark because, as I say, the shadow Minister gave a perfectly reasonable speech and made some really salient points. From his experience in local government, he knows the importance of managing these processes. Some of the opposition I have seen locally just seems like trying to keep the establishment going.
To touch on the points my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills made, I too have been a victim of this police station closure programme. We stopped one closure—we prevented Tipton police station from closing—but had this structure been in place, with a high-profile Mayor who was actually able to have the community cut-through my right hon. Friend the Minister alluded to, we could perhaps have sorted this situation out sooner. However, what I would say, particularly to Labour politicians locally in Sandwell, is this: shame on you for trying to take any sort of credit for saving that police station. It was not politicians who saved that; it was the community campaign that saved that. Shame on you, because you were not there when your comrade in the PCC’s office was absolutely adamant that that station had to go.
This is what we are on about: lining up responsibilities to enable us to have a more streamlined approach, to stop ridiculous situations such as the one I described and to take a more circumspect view, taking into account not just operational policing matters, which are of course important, but the broader community links that matter within our region. I think that that is what this comes down to.
I and, I think, many in the west midlands want to see our region move on. In the past 10 years, we have seen the way in which our region has evolved and developed, and it continues to do so. Why should we miss out, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield said, on the opportunities that London and Greater Manchester have had? Do not get me wrong; with Greater Manchester as an example, it is not this land of milk and honey, and things do not always go right along the way. But having that accountability—the ability to hold that person to account—but in a broader, community, contextualised way, is absolutely the key pillar behind this change.
We can go back and forth on the responses around this measure; my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield made a valuable point about the engagement on this. The hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton also touched on that when he said that this is not what people talk about over their cornflakes in the morning. However, on the democratic engagement point, I think it is incumbent on all of us in this room to ensure that there is democratic engagement on these issues.
To close, I might put one challenge to the Minister. We know that funds are stretched at the moment, and I will not go too much into the judicial review, but I would be keen to understand what advice he has taken about recovering the costs personally from the PCC. The PCC has used public money for this judicial review, when it could have been given to police officers on the beat or used to keep police stations such as that in Wednesbury in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills open. I would be very grateful for that information. I appreciate that some of the advice may be privileged but, from within the realms of what the Minister can share, what advice has he taken on recovering some of those costs? It is an outrage to my constituents that they have had to foot the bill for, as far as I am concerned, saving a mate.
I welcome this measure, as I am sure Members on both sides of the House do. It has opened a broad debate, and I am particularly interested in what the shadow Minister said, because I think this opens up a lot of rabbit holes that we could go down today, although we are not going to. Ultimately, I support this measure. It is the right move for the west midlands—a west midlands that is moving forward in the right direction—and it is putting us on a par with everyone else.
The Chair
Before I call the Minister, I would just say that it is always my intention to allow a reasonably wide-ranging debate, with points made in illustration of arguments as long as that is done briefly. However, I would advise the Minister to perhaps respond to the final point about the cost of the judicial review on another occasion, rather than this afternoon.
Chris Philp
Sir Graham, I will of course follow your advice, or perhaps your instruction, and reply to that another time. We have had a wide-ranging debate, and I thank the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, for the considered manner in which he made his remarks and for his commitment not to divide the Committee.
There was just one question I wanted to answer, which related to whether there is to be further consultation. There are no plans to consult any further. We have conducted the public consultation. The Government’s position on this question was categorically not predetermined. The Government did not have a fixed view of the matter during the consultation and took their decision quickly but only after carefully considering all the consultation responses.
Chris Philp
We have discussed it extensively already.
We very carefully considered all the responses, and only after considering them very carefully was a decision reached. In terms of local democratic consent, this transfer was possible only following a request by the Mayor of the West Midlands, who has by far the largest democratic mandate of any politician in the west midlands. On that basis, Sir Graham, I commend this order to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024.