House of Lords Reform

Debate between George Howarth and Mark Field

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mark Field]

I am sorry—the hon. Gentleman will recognise that I did not mean that literally. I recognise that, within the context of Northern Ireland and Ulster politics, it might be seen as a loaded phrase. He is aware of what I was getting at. There was a sense that a lot of political pressure was being brought to bear by the political Assembly of one of the parts of the United Kingdom that has had a full constitutional change, which would have affected my constituents to a large extent.

There are great dangers for the Conservatives in promoting the prospect of English votes for English laws. The UK constitution is full of anomalies. Attacking Scottish MPs in that way comes across as partisan and negative. Our mission should be to maintain and strengthen the Union. It is all too easy for a negative-sounding solution to the West Lothian question to be portrayed by our opponents—

[Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)]

Order. I am listening carefully and with interest to the hon. Gentleman’s speech. The title of the debate is House of Lords reform, and he is talking about wider constitutional questions and issues. Perhaps he could relate them back to the reform of the House of Lords. I am sure he would be happy to stay in order.

[Mark Field]

That is very kind, Mr Howarth. I very much accept that. The point I was trying to make was that we need to look at House of Lords reform in the context of many of the other constitutional reforms that would be at the top of the in-tray for a Government, because of the unbalanced constitutional situation. It seems to me that the English, and indeed the British as a whole, like and respect the concept of fair play, and there is a groundswell of unease about the somewhat one-sided constitutional deal, which is linked to reform of the House of Lords. As an MP for a seat in London, the capital of both England and the United Kingdom, I think that the Conservative party should offer all the British people together, whether English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish, a new settlement that is demonstrably equitable for everyone. As I have said, that links to the question of the House of Lords.

Since the expulsion of the great bulk of the hereditary peers some 16 years ago, I have in principle favoured the option of a wholly or largely elected House of Lords. I recognise that such an outcome is unlikely to be within the realms of practical politics soon, because the strongest opposition to an elected House of Lords comes from existing life peers from across the political spectrum. Their support for any reform will be essential if we are to avoid the constitutional deadlock that we have been beset by in the past. In addition, even if the principle of election were established, there would remain the question of the timing and process. Would it be first past the post, or proportional representation, a system that other hon. Members have supported? Would there be fixed or variable terms? The list of practical difficulties would be almost endless.

The solution I propose is the creation of an entirely new federal Parliament, with four full national Parliaments in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with all the existing powers of the House of Commons, and over them a federal United Kingdom Parliament, which would debate defence and foreign affairs, make treaties and administer a broader cohesion fund for the poorer parts of the UK and broader strategic economic issues. There would be no need for extra politicians, because the national Parliaments would send representatives to the UK Parliament, which would meet in the old House of Lords Chamber, perhaps once or twice a week. That would mean abolishing the House of Lords, and moving to a unicameral system. That would work pretty well. It has not proved a problem in Edinburgh or Cardiff in the past eight years.

The proposal would cut the Gordian knot of House of Lords reform and provide an equitable structure that respected national differences, while strengthening our ties as a nation of equals. It would remove the growing sense of disgruntlement in England at the perception that the Scots can play the system to benefit financially from the devolution settlement that came into play 15 years ago. It would also save the cost of the House of Lords and the Scotland and Wales Offices and reduce the total number of politicians. It is perhaps a radical and bold solution for a Conservative MP to suggest, but I believe it will be the only way to balance the British constitution, which has served us so well for so long. It would say no to partisan changes and offer the British people a fairer alternative if my party were to hold power after the next election.

The debate is important and will continue. It is easy to be overly negative about the House of Lords. I appreciate that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire comes from a somewhat different political tradition, which means that, for him, the issue has a class war aspect. Even as a Conservative, when I watch the Queen’s Speech, the ermine and the pomp and ceremony of the House of Lords do not fill me with great joy.

Although I believe we should adopt a unicameral system and abolish the House of Lords, I should point out that a significant number of Lords make a big contribution. The composition of the House, particularly recently, has not been terribly satisfactory, but many peers have great expertise and are diligent in their work. They probably earn considerably less in the hours they spend on House of Lords business than they do in their other activities. We should recognise that, but like the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, I feel the time is ripe for constitutional change, to put things on a fair footing, equitable for all our people. I very much want to link House of Lords reform to general devolution reform, which is at the forefront of the Government’s mind.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between George Howarth and Mark Field

Tuesday 9th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Howarth]

Had the hon. Gentleman waited a while longer, I was about to say what more could be done. It is right that we have a statutory provision, and, subject to the concerns that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North highlighted being satisfied, the provisions contained in the Bill are appropriate. However, there is a problem that we cannot resolve within the context of our own domestic legislation. Many of the communications service providers are not based in the UK; they are based mostly in the United States. Increasingly, the Republic of Ireland is seen as a location of choice for some companies. Google and perhaps one other CSP have already relocated there. It is increasingly clear that whatever legislation we put in place, it will not, of itself, be enough to resolve the problem.

[Mark Field]

Does the right hon. Gentleman also accept that the increased knowledge of the general public and—dare I say it—of individuals who would do us harm about the techniques adopted by the security services and others have also helped to ensure that there is now much more sophisticated encryption in place, which also plays an important part in further reducing our capacity to know precisely what is happening on the internet?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Howarth]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right and he, like me, is a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. We have good reason to believe that there are any number of encryption packages that can be bought quite openly on the internet. It is a matter not just of the communications service providers encrypting communications that take place but of individuals buying packages that enable them to do that themselves, which makes the situation even more difficult.

What more can we do? It is no use pretending that this problem is unique to the UK; it is a very difficult international problem. I know that the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary and others are in constant dialogue with their opposite numbers in the United States, but there needs to be a growing understanding between ourselves and the places where CSPs are located that there cannot be this ungoverned space within which criminal activity can take place unchecked on the basis that it is in another jurisdiction from where it is being perpetrated. That issue can only be properly resolved by states, either bilaterally or multilaterally, agreeing protocols and ways of dealing with these issues. Obviously, it is much more easy to do that with friendly states—states with which we share common values—than it is in some other areas where internet providers might decide to locate because there will not be many controls on them. Clearly, that is another matter that needs to be seriously avoided.

We need to have order in this ungoverned space. I am talking about legal compliance and there not being this free space in which crime, terrorism and other activities can illegally take place. It is also important that the CSPs take a more responsible view of what they are being used for. Like the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field), I have seen some CSPs washing their hands of such responsibilities, saying, “That is a matter of jurisdiction. We are not in that jurisdiction so we will comply with the laws where we are.” That might be good for their reputations with their customers, but it is a fairly cynical way of operating. I hope that, through the intervention of our own Government and Governments elsewhere, CSPs can be brought to the view that they should behave responsibly and in such a way that upholds the law right across the world—except in cases where the rule of law does not operate.

[Mark Field]

Is the right hon. Gentleman happy for me to put it on the record that it is also the case that many CSPs do a very good job of co-operating with the police and law enforcement agencies? Part of the difficulty has been that the revelations of the past 14 or 15 months have exposed what some would call an over-cosy relationship between those service providers and the state. I am talking about not so much here in the UK, but in mainland Europe and the United States of America, and it has been commercially damaging to many of those providers.

[Mr Howarth]

As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Sometimes the difficulty is that the amount of data and communications that providers store means that they are unable to know what is there. Very often, controls are triggered electronically, and so human eyes might not necessarily see the communication that relates to a terrorist plot, organised crime or even, in a hidden corner of it all, some kind of child abuse. Quite often, no human eyes see it, and it may be that only after an event—as in the case of Fusilier Lee Rigby—do people become aware that there was a communication that indicated that someone was about to or was likely to do something, and that knowing about it could have made a difference, as we concluded in our report the other week. Perhaps I have presented too cynical a picture of communications service providers. I know that, on occasion, they do co-operate constructively, but I believe that increasingly we need the space in which they operate to be better regulated, and that requires international controls agreed between responsible allies and CSPs themselves.

Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Bill

Debate between George Howarth and Mark Field

Tuesday 15th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Howarth]

I am interested to hear my hon. Friend’s concern. I went to the Vote Office at half-past 8 this morning just to make sure that the amendment had been tabled. Anybody who was interested enough would have been able to see it from half-past 8, and it was tabled in accordance with the procedures of the House yesterday evening. I do not want to labour the point, but there was enough time, if anybody was interested enough, to check what amendments had been tabled. I am sure that my hon. Friend, as the author of another amendment that we will discuss later, took the trouble of checking this morning that his had been included as well. We do have a responsibility to check what we are debating.

This is my small attempt to bring further enlightenment to the proceedings, particularly as regards clause 3. I hope that the Minister will be able to allay my fears that the provision may be too widely drawn.

[Mark Field]

I fear that it was wishful thinking on the part of the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) to assume that there would be no other speakers on this matter. As he will know, because we discussed it yesterday as members of the Intelligence and Security Committee, I wholeheartedly approve of this amendment.

[Mr Howarth]

The hon. Gentleman’s contribution is very welcome.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between George Howarth and Mark Field

Monday 16th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Howarth]

My hon. Friend is precisely right. I worked in industry on the shop floor prior to the introduction of health and safety legislation. On another occasion—this is not the appropriate time—I might, if I get the opportunity, describe the conditions in which people worked in a lot of factories in those times. Often they were almost Dickensian.

[Mark Field]

No one is suggesting that we should try to encourage some sort of sweatshop regime; but equally, during these difficult economic times, there is a tendency for businesses—particularly small and medium-sized enterprises—to batten down the hatches. We want to encourage them to take the risk—“Yes, let’s take on an extra employee. Maybe some more business is coming through”; “Okay, but will we be able to expand in three or six months’ time?”; “Let’s try and take employees on.” The difficulty for small and medium-sized enterprises is not the idea of employment rights, but that the difficulties and costs of taking on new employees—particularly young employees—become so overwhelming that there is a massive disincentive so to do.

[Mr Howarth]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for having rebalanced his view slightly, but I still think that he is wrong. When I talk to employers about the difficulties they have in recruiting, they tell me that they have two priorities, particularly in regard to young people. The first is that the young people should have the right skill set and should be capable of doing the job without needing too much training from the employer. The second, which is harder to pin down, is about attitude. Employers are looking for people who are disciplined enough to turn up at the right time and not to take days off on a whim. Such considerations come ahead of the concerns that the hon. Gentleman has described.

I want to talk briefly about the cumulative effect that the measures in the Budget will have on the people in Knowsley whom I represent. I also want to cover the proposals for minimum unit pricing for alcohol, as one of the major employers in my constituency will be affected by them. I have also received quite a lot of correspondence from individual constituents on that matter.

I am concerned about the impact that the working tax credit changes will have on my constituents, in conjunction with the other changes to the benefit system that are already taking place. To qualify for working tax credit, couples with children will now have to work at least 24 hours a week between them, instead of 16, with one of the couple working at least 16 hours a week. There are exceptions for people with a disability or incapacity. There is also an issue with the backdating of the entitlement to tax credit. It will now be one month, instead of three months. A further concern is that the main elements of the tax credit have been frozen for 2012-13.

I am unable to give the House any statistics to show how those changes will directly affect my constituents, but it is clear that changes to tax credits impact most heavily—indeed, entirely—on those on low incomes. That is another contrast between the situation experienced by the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster and me. It is estimated that, nationally, 212,000 working couples with children who earn less than £17,000 a year will lose all their working tax credit. Unless those people are able to find someone who will employ them for an extra eight hours a week, that could equate to a loss of £3,870 a year. That will be a substantial loss for the many families in my constituency who will be affected by the change. We must also take into account other things that have been going on. Low-income families are already disproportionately affected by rising fuel costs and rising food bills, for example, and these changes will only add to those pressures.

Child benefit has been frozen for another two years, until April 2014. Before the Budget, there was a lot of negative publicity about the plans to withdraw child benefit from families with a higher-rate taxpayer in the household. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster referred to that in his speech. In the Budget, however, the Chancellor backtracked a little. From January 2013 there will be no loss of child benefit until at least one parent earns £50,000, after which the benefit will be gradually reclaimed through increasing the take up to £60,000. Beyond that, people stop getting the benefit at all. That will be a very complex system to administer, and my major concern is how it will affect people in my constituency. If the benefit had been raised in line with inflation, a couple with one child would have received £88 a year more in child benefit or £145 a year for two children in 2012-13, but now they will simply not get that.

The latest Department for Work and Pensions figures show that in Knowsley 21,185 families were in receipt of child benefit, with 35,725 children between them. That is a substantial number of people who will be adversely affected by these changes in my constituency alone. It is inevitable that I should comment on that, as it is totally unacceptable for those families. I fear that one consequence will be—perversely perhaps, or even unintentionally—that some families that manage to convince the Jobcentre Plus people that they are genuinely unemployed, might decide that they will be better off if they are not working.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between George Howarth and Mark Field

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Howarth]

My right hon. Friend would give me another sleepless night.

[Mark Field]

The right hon. Gentleman mentions Schleswig-Holstein, but he has not gone into detail about which local government Minister has gone mad as a result of all this.

[Mr Howarth]

I suspect that there are several candidates. I remember a few, but it would be churlish to name names.

I shall be brief, largely because my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) stole my thunder, but my concern is that in Knowsley we have two large private sector employers. QVC, the home shopping channel, employs about 1,500 people, and Jaguar Land Rover is also a major employer with more than 1,000 employees. There is no reason to believe that either company is in any danger. Both are very successful and are doing well, even in these straitened economic times, but what would happen if one were at some point to go bust—one of them represents 7% of the total business rates take? Unless there is clarity about what would happen in those circumstances, the effect on the finances of the borough of Knowsley could be appalling. We need clarity about what would happen in such circumstances. I hope, therefore, that when the Minister replies, or perhaps at a later stage, he can give some further and better particulars about how all this will work.