Court Closures and Reform

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Westminster Hall

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) on securing the debate.

I speak with a Scottish element. I will not take up too much time as that is not the remit of this Parliament, but it provides the experience of similar changes north of the border. I was my party’s justice spokesperson in the Scottish Parliament at a time when a number of courts were closed by the Scottish National party Government. The Library briefing for this debate states:

“Successive governments”

—of both political persuasions—

“have identified the courts estate as a target for efficiency savings”.

It states that that is for two main reasons:

“The first is that the utilisation rate of some courts is low…The second is the policy aim of reforming access to justice through modernisation, and by increased use of technology in particular.”

I want to focus on both those points in terms of what we have been discussing today and what we have been through in Scotland. Between November 2013 and January 2015, 10 courts were closed in Scotland for exactly the reasons mentioned in the briefing. Those closures were objected to by many people across the political spectrum—even SNP Members, although ultimately when it came to a vote, they voted with the Government. It is useful to look at Scotland as an example. Figures uncovered by the Scottish Conservatives in November last year show that in the previous year, only three of the 39 sheriff courts across Scotland met the target for dealing with 100% of cases within 26 weeks of someone getting a citation or caution. We have seen the impact that closing 10 courts across Scotland has had on the remaining courts. The problems are getting worse. In the past year, Elgin sheriff court in Moray has not once met its target to deal with 100% of cases in 26 weeks.

I also want to speak about digitalisation. I understand the concerns that the hon. Member for Slough has articulated, but there are great benefits. We are behind the curve in Scotland. Lord Carloway did a review in 2015 of evidence and procedure. He was a very good person to do the review, because in 2013 he said that there should be “clear sky thinking” about digitalisation in our courts system. We are no further on from his comments in 2013 or his report in 2015. We are still suffering as a result of the lack of use of digital in our court system in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Lord Carloway said:

“Police Scotland is currently migrating to a unified IT system, known as i6”—

that was a computer programme that Police Scotland was going to take in—

“which will resolve the inconsistencies currently experienced because of the incompatibilities of the legacy systems from the eight predecessor forces.”

He said that in his report in 2015. We are now in 2018, and Police Scotland has abandoned its plans to introduce i6. Three years on, we have not resolved the issues. In fact, the issues remain. He also spoke about a

“digital evidence vault to securely store all documents, audio, pictures and video content, preserving citizens’ privacy”.

There is now an evidence vault, but it is rarely used, because lawyers and the police are not happy with it. There are still problems with getting digital to have an impact in our courts. It would have great benefits.

When I was on the Justice Committee, we did an inquiry into the issue. We were looking at the role of the Lord Advocate and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. We were given an example of a case that had been given a date. Everyone turned up—the witnesses turned up, the accused turned up and the defence was ready. Then they said that they were not able to view the key piece of evidence, which they had had months and months to look at. It was a CCTV image. When the police had copied it on to a disc and given it to the defence solicitors, the defence solicitors could not view it on their DVD player. Witnesses had travelled a considerable distance. We had the cost of the court sitting that day only for the case to be put back again to get a new disc produced that was compatible with the defence solicitors’ DVD player and Police Scotland’s DVD player. It is 2018, and we still have such instances. They are causing delays in our court system, which is causing significant strain on our resources and considerable difficulties to witnesses and victims. They are turning up for trials, which are being put off and delayed because what we are doing is not in the modern era.

Since Lord Carloway’s report, there has been some progress on child and vulnerable victims, but not enough. I listened carefully to what Members have said, but I think that part of the barrier is the legal profession itself. It may be ironic that Members of this House are speaking about moving into a more modern age, but there seems to be resentment of change in some parts of the legal system. It has been their career, and their lifestyle has been immersed in a more traditional way of doing things, but we have got to overcome that. We are in the modern era, and there are modern technologies that we can adapt and use in our court systems. We should look to do that.

In conclusion, the Minister is obviously carefully considering the changes being proposed for England and Wales. She has to take care with those changes. I have no doubt there will be many benefits, but there will also be some dangers. I urge her not to do what the SNP Government have done in Scotland, which is to ignore all the warnings and forge ahead with the changes regardless. By doing that, the SNP has introduced changes that have resulted in our justice system suffering north of the border. More crucially than that, our victims and witnesses are being let down by justice in Scotland just now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I will tell the story from my constituency, as the hon. Member for Moray told his constituency’s story. It is wonderful to discover that things in my constituency are very similar to those in Moray, because things happen that are universal across the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The Northern Ireland Department of Justice proposal was to reduce the court estate from 20 to 12—a 40% reduction. That is a massive reduction, and that did not include the courts that had already closed, including smaller courthouses such as a neighbouring one in Bangor, the closure of which was a downwards step. I believe that the level of closures was disproportionately high compared with the closures in England and Wales referred to in the Department of Justice consultation paper; there was a 28% reduction in 2010. That level of culling of courthouses in Northern Ireland was not necessary or beneficial, and did not provide basic access to local justice.

Newtownards courthouse has a significant volume of business. I want to put something important on record that relates to the reasons for retaining that courthouse: it is the busiest court outside Belfast and Londonderry, dealing with all types of specialised court business—civil, criminal and family. It is now a specialist centre for children’s courts, youth courts, magistrates courts, civil courts and Crown courts. The work of that courthouse has increased, taking a bit of pressure off the larger ones. Many disability living allowance and other benefit appeals are now held there, because the safety and security aspect is much better. That is important not only for confidentiality but for those who attend. The courthouse is now seen as thriving and constantly busy. It also brings business to the local coffee shops. The spin-off from the courthouses to the surrounding area can never be ignored, and shops in the town must also be taken into consideration.

The idea of taking justice from Ards to Belfast without just cause, closing the courthouse after spending almost £1 million on refurbishing it—the hon. Member for Slough referred to the spend on another courthouse—made no sense. Asking people to make the journey from Portaferry to Belfast made even less sense, and would in itself have been a barrier to justice, as the courts there are already overworked. The Department’s target that people should be able to reach a courthouse within an hour by car is fine for those who have a car in which to travel, but for too many people it is a matter of catching a bus or train. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) spoke about people having to make three bus changes to get to a new court. That is illogical and unfair. Catching a bus or train rarely, if ever, takes less time than it takes someone to jump into their own car.

Another important point is that people have to be at court at a particular time. They have to get up at whatever time is necessary and get on buses or trains to ensure that they arrive in advance. The hon. Gentleman referred to a four-hour journey for some people to get to court on public transport. The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts)—I hope I said that right, Mr Gray; my Welsh accent is atrocious, but I tried very hard to grasp those two words—mentioned that as well. The issue of distance is very real to all of us in the Chamber.

I do not find the mentality of “Oh, what’s an hour’s drive?” acceptable. I do not accept it in my constituency of Strangford. I therefore support my hon. Friend the Member for Slough, if I can call him that, in his stand against the reforms in his constituency. The good news is that we managed to overturn them in ours. The legal community, the community of Newtownards, elected representatives, the local council and elected representatives from the Northern Ireland Assembly managed to combine our efforts and present an evidence base to Ministers to overturn the “economy savings” in my constituency by proving that it was a false economy. Ministers accepted that, and we now have a thriving and retained service in Newtownards as a result.

[Douglas Ross]

I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s passionate speech about what happened in Northern Ireland, and how the Assembly listened to the concerns of the local community and experts. The Scottish Government and the Scottish National party failed to do that north of the border. There was clear evidence from experts and local communities that the 10 closures over two years would be damaging. We are now seeing that in Scotland, but the Scottish Government and the SNP would not listen.

[Jim Shannon]

I will not get involved in the local politics, but I will say that it is important always to listen to the evidence.

I trust that the hon. Member for Slough will succeed in showing that what matters more than the red or black line in the accounts is accessible justice—enabling victims to come to court and do what needs to be done, without being stressed by additional worries about journeys, bus routes or anything else. We should enable victims to have time to speak with their solicitor, rather than their solicitor being on the commute, unavailable to meet them until the court time. There are so many ways in which a victim is better supported by a court that is close to hand rather than removed. I know that the Minister has listened intently to all the comments in the Chamber, and will listen to those of the shadow Minister. I hope that the Minister will take on board those viewpoints and the evidential base for keeping courthouses in place.