Scrap Metal Dealers Bill
David Winnick Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
On the issue of war memorials, this coming Sunday we will pay our respects to those who sacrificed their lives for our country. Does my right hon. Friend agree that not passing this Bill today would cause tremendous disappointment to transport companies, churches and our constituents? I might add that we in the west midlands have perhaps suffered more than other parts of the country as a result of the rise in metal theft over the past few years.
Mr Winnick
The hon. Gentleman is, as ever, eloquent and putting forward a reasoned case. I always take pleasure in listening to him. Is it his wish to see progress made on the Bill today, despite the criticisms he has made? For all we know, his amendments may not be accepted. He started his remarks by referring to the problems that make the Bill necessary—he said that he has spoken to his constituents and to Church people—so is it his wish to see progress made to ensure that the Bill is not lost?
Mr Chope
Indeed it is. It is my desire to see not only progress, but some amendments accepted. As an indication of that desire, I have tabled an amendment, which we will come to later, proposing that the commencement date should be two months after Royal Assent. What we have heard so far from the Government is that it may be six months or more after Royal Assent before they have anything in place. That would mean that it may not be until this time next year that the provisions of the Bill are in force. The situation is sufficiently serious to warrant much quicker action than that. The regulations that local authorities are going to have to apply could be being drafted as we speak, but that does not seem to be happening. What is happening at the moment is that some of us are saying that the Bill is not perfect—obviously it is not perfect because the Government have introduced about 30 amendments—and an attempt is being made to vilify us by suggesting that we want to promote the cause of people who steal from our war memorials and so on.
The reality is quite the reverse; I am impatient, because even the legislation that we passed earlier this year on requiring names, addresses and identification to be provided and on prohibiting cash transactions at scrap metal dealers does not come into force until 3 December. When it was passed, that was done on the basis that it was going to be transforming. When I was at a scrap metal dealers last Saturday, some people came with an old car and said that they wanted cash for it. The dealer said that he was already operating under the provisions of Operation Tornado, but they said that they understood they could still get cash for scrap until December. That just shows the extent to which loopholes and an unwillingness to implement our legislation quickly can be exploited by the criminal fraternity.
Mr Winnick
I spoke on Second Reading, and I want to congratulate again the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) on bringing this measure forward. I would also like to take the opportunity, having congratulated one Conservative Member, to congratulate another one—the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) who, on a number of occasions, made it quite clear how important this legislation is for the Church, on whose behalf, of course, he speaks and answers questions here. As I have said on more than one occasion, he implored some of his colleagues not to stop this Bill becoming law.
I endorse, too, the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). I am bound to do so, because I work on the assumption that from my Front-Bench team there can only be words of wisdom—[Interruption.] Well, on 99% of occasions when we are in opposition.
There can be no disagreement that scrap metal theft is, as everyone has said, an acute public nuisance. The hon. Member for Croydon South mentioned, as I did earlier, what we all going to do on Sunday to pay our respects to those who sacrificed their lives for our country. It is difficult to understand the sort of sickness—there is no other way to describe it—of those who are willing to wreck war memorials up and down this country purely and simply to make some profit. I spoke on Second Reading about the trouble and the nuisance it causes and about the danger to train passengers. Many of my constituents’ lives are being made a misery as a result of these thefts.
The sooner this measure gets its final parliamentary approval and gets on to the statute book, the better. It may well be, as the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Christchurch (Mr Chope) said, that there are weaknesses in the Bill and that they need to be looked at. I do not question that, but the important thing is to get this measure on the statute book. If further measures are subsequently necessary to strengthen it, I hope we will not be reluctant to take them. This is an essential measure, and I am very pleased to support it.
Hillsborough
David Winnick Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report.
The Hillsborough independent panel published its report on 12 September. Alongside the report, it launched an archive consisting of hundreds of thousands of pages of records. The report and the archive reveal the truth about the Hillsborough disaster and its aftermath. What the panel has uncovered is shocking and disturbing, and it was right for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, having read the report, to apologise to the families of the victims. In addition to that apology, however, there must be accountability. The bereaved families deserve a proper response to what is a comprehensive report. So today I want to set out the shape of that response and how we can, in the words of some of the families, move from truth to justice.
Before I do so, however, I want to remind the House of some of the panel’s findings. First, it found that the safety of the crowd entering Hillsborough’s Leppings Lane terrace was “compromised at every level”. The capacity of the terrace had been significantly over-calculated, meaning that hundreds more tickets were sold than the area could safely accommodate. Crush barriers were lower than set out in safety rules. Their layout was also inadequate. The small number of turnstiles meant that delays were always likely at a capacity match. There were three times more people per turnstile at Leppings Lane than at the opposite end of the ground.
Previous instances of crushing had not been recognised or acted on. Lessons had not been learned. When the disaster happened, neither the police nor the ambulance service properly activated their major incident procedure, which meant that command and control roles were not properly filled. The panel found
“repeated evidence of failures in leadership and emergency response coordination”.
There was no systematic triage of casualties and a lack of basic equipment. None of this takes away from the heroic work of spectators and individual members of the emergency services who fought to save lives, but the panel is clear that a swifter, better-equipped and better-focused emergency response could have saved more people.
The original inquests heard that the victims of Hillsborough suffered traumatic asphyxia leading to unconsciousness within seconds and death within a few minutes, but the detailed medical analysis produced by the panel tells a different story. The panel considered that there was definite evidence in 41 cases, and possibly in a further 17 others, that those who died did so after having survived for a longer period. In these cases, their condition was potentially recoverable, and they might have survived had there been a more effective emergency response. It is difficult to imagine how the families of those who died must feel hearing that fact after 23 years.
The truth, however hard to bear, should not have taken so long to be told. The panel’s report shows that the coroner at the original inquest acted on the medical advice of pathologists and after seeking the views of colleagues, but it also shows very clearly that the structure of the inquest and the imposition of a 3.15 pm cut-off of evidence meant that a false picture was presented and accepted as fact.
The panel’s report makes it clear that South Yorkshire police in the last couple of years have set an example in terms of the process of disclosure to the panel. However, its findings about South Yorkshire police in 1989 are stark. The panel’s report lays bare the reaction of the police in attempting to shift blame for the disaster on to the fans. Lord Justice Taylor’s report into Hillsborough found that the disaster’s main cause was
“the failure of police control”.
Inadequate crowd management and poor provision of turnstiles led to an unmanageable crush outside the ground. Taylor found that the police were right to respond by opening exit gate C but wrong to fail to consider where fans entering through that gate would go next. Most went straight ahead, down a tunnel marked “Standing”, into the already-full central pens. Failure to block that tunnel was, according to Lord Taylor’s report,
“a blunder of the first magnitude”.
The police, however, attempted to create a different story—one in which drunken Liverpool fans arrived in their thousands at the last minute and caused the disaster. Their late arrival, it was claimed, overwhelmed the police. Officers presented unfounded stories of vile behaviour to the press. The intention, according to the panel, was to
“develop and publicise a version of events that focused on…allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence”.
In seeking to make its case, South Yorkshire police went so far as to vet the written statements made by its officers. Once vetted, changes were made. The panel found that 164 statements were altered significantly. Of those, 116 were amended so as to remove content that was unfavourable to the police, including on its lack of leadership.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
At the meeting of the Select Committee on Home Affairs last Tuesday, the present chief constable of South Yorkshire police was asked whether he accepted without qualification the panel’s report. He said yes.
Mrs May
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He is absolutely right: the current chief constable has accepted what was in the report unconditionally. That is an important step for South Yorkshire police, but obviously we have to look at what the report says about South Yorkshire police.
Extradition
David Winnick Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Despite the comments of my right hon. and respected Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), a former Home Secretary, is the Home Secretary aware that the decision that she has made on this individual case will be widely and warmly welcomed, not only in the House but outside? It is a very good decision and she should be proud of it. However, on the extradition treaty with the United States, may I remind her how critical she and the Liberal Democrats were in opposition? Like a number of Members, I remain of the view that the treaty needs to be looked at again.
Mrs May
I had a hopeful moment there when the hon. Gentleman was speaking! I thank him for his earlier remarks. I am well aware that this was a matter on which there was considerable discussion when it went through the House. I am also aware that the forum bar arrangements that are in the Police and Justice Act 2006 were moved by the then shadow Home Affairs team, led by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), who is now the Attorney-General, so we are well aware of the issues that were raised at the time. I believe that the introduction of the forum bar will ensure that people see that justice is being done in relation to the decision whether extradition should take place and where prosecution should take place. Other changes that we will introduce on the extradition proceedings will ensure that people can see that this is a process in which they can take comfort and have confidence.
Olympics (Security)
David Winnick Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mrs May
Obviously, there is a contract between the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games and G4S. There are penalties in it, and it is for LOCOG to deal with, but G4S is on record as saying that it will cover the extra costs of the military and the police.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Could it be the unanimous wish of this House that the British participants in the games do far, far better than the shambles we are now discussing?
Mrs May
I am sure it is the unanimous wish of this House that British participants in the games are going to do extremely well, that we will have a good medal haul and that Members like myself will have constituents who are medal hopefuls—and I wish them every good luck in their competitive events.
Scrap Metal Dealers Bill
David Winnick Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Recently, a family in my borough woke up to discover that during the night lead flashing had been taken from their doorframes, bay windows and porches. The thieves had stood on wheelie bins to reach some of the lead. That illustrates the scale of the problem that the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) is seeking to address. I congratulate him on introducing his Bill. We must not make too much of a habit of my following him, however; I did so on 27 March, in a debate on a totally different subject, and I wonder whether the same situation will arise again in the near future. He is right that metal theft has become a major and very antisocial problem throughout most of the country. He mentioned the Croydon parish church, which, as he might know, is not unfamiliar to me from a prehistoric age. My Front-Bench colleague, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), will no doubt address general matters, but I shall concentrate mainly on the position locally in the Walsall borough and in my constituency.
I recently received a letter from a constituent in which she wrote:
“Afraid life has become a nightmare here, with cars parked everywhere and vans loaded with scrap parked in front of houses. Scrap is moved from one lorry to another.
Of course, everyone is in a state of distress and I hear different reports of what is being said. All this is mixed with fear, residents are terrified of reprisals; even so, I know that the police have this on their radar.
Am I correct in thinking that this is an increasing problem for the constituency?”
Of course, the answer is yes, very much so.
Last Friday, I went to a ward in a different part of my constituency. I hold regular surgeries there, and I wanted to see the up-to-date position. I was accompanied by a local councillor, and we saw that in certain streets, although not in the ward as a whole, there were vans full to the brim with metal, all of it to be sold at a later date. There was no licensing of any kind. These activities undoubtedly cause a major antisocial nuisance in the vicinity.
It is unfortunate that it has taken so long for the House to recognise the seriousness of this problem. I would have hoped that we could have dealt with it earlier. Walsall council is not indifferent. It does not have a Labour majority, but there is no party political point to be made, and the officers are doing their best. However, they simply do not have the powers to act effectively, for many of the reasons the hon. Member for Croydon South mentioned. His Bill is therefore clearly necessary.
The local authority says that it and the police simply do not have sufficient powers to take the required action. It sent me a letter saying there is a lack of cohesion between the borough and neighbouring areas, which results in problems being passed from one area to another. It added that the penalties are ineffective in that they are not sufficiently strong to act as a deterrent, and that there are problems with enforcing laws due to slow legal processes and limited resources. It is also difficult to monitor the number and location of scrap dealers, as many of them are not registered with the council. We all hope and expect that the Minister will give the Bill his support, but I ask him to address that issue. If we are going to pass legislation, local authorities must have the powers and resources to be able to enforce the new laws.
Robert Flello
My hon. Friend’s comments bring to mind a situation in my constituency involving European Metal Recycling. The company and its scrap yard have been causing a great nuisance to neighbours. EMR has flouted the planning law and all sorts of other regulations. It has put up buildings and installed CCTV, and erected scrap piles that are far higher than is allowed. My local authority has tried to address the problem, but at every turn EMR has manipulated the law, and planning objections that have gone before the council will now possibly have to go through the entire court and appeal system. That serves to highlight my hon. Friend’s point that these companies will do anything to get a few quid in their pockets from scrap.
Mr Winnick
I congratulate my hon. Friend on being so conscientious in dealing with these problems in his constituency. We all know that he is a very conscientious Member of Parliament.
We must not have any illusions and assume that changing the law will result in everyone who is involved in this business suddenly changing their ways. Many of them will do everything they can to evade the law and continue to make a fast buck.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman said local authorities need to have the resources to enforce the laws. One of the great strengths of the Bill is that it provides those resources through the ability to raise a licensing fee. Does he agree that the scrap metal industry should pay for the costs of licensing?
Mr Winnick
Yes, of course. That is a very valid point, but I am also saying that where local authorities require further resources to carry out their duties and responsibilities they should not be in a position where they cannot do so. If an authority does not face such problems of resources, so be it. Just to clarify things, what I am saying is that whatever the source of revenue, local authorities should not be in a position, once this Bill becomes law, to say, “We want to do it. We know it is important, but we have not got the resources.” I do not want to participate in an argument today about how local authorities are being so adversely affected by the cuts, because there will be many other occasions to do so. I have not come here to deal with that, and Government Members should be pleased at least about that.
Reference is made in the introductory notes about the cost to the country; it is estimated that between £260 million and almost £800 million could be lost each year. So we are talking about large sums indeed. Various clauses of the Bill will doubtless be examined in Committee. I note that the Local Government Association would like more flexibility to impose local conditions, which is, again, a Committee matter. Moreover, the same organisation said in its memorandum that it fears that what is being proposed may not be enough to change the behaviour of some of the worst offenders. I think I have dealt with that aspect, but it needs to be emphasised that strong measures will have to be taken once the Bill becomes law, and we hope that local authorities and the police will carry out their duties accordingly.
Clause 15 proposes that the Act should be reviewed every five years, which, again, will be a matter for the Committee. I would say that this should be done every three years. Given that the problem is as acute as the hon. Member for Croydon South rightly said it is, is it really enough to say that this should be looked at only once five years has passed? I very much urge that that period should be shorter. Clause 3(7) provides for bodies that need to be involved in registration and so on. I would include local authorities in that, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give consideration to that point as well.
All in all, I believe that what is being proposed today is essential. It is what our constituents want, and it is what local authorities and the police require in order to deal with what we all agree is a major social problem—perhaps I should call it an antisocial problem, as that would be more precise. I know that one or two Government Members at the back of the Chamber do not have much confidence in the state intervening, but if ever there was a case for it, this is it. I hope I am not provoking the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), but saying that was somewhat irresistible when I saw the two of them sitting together on the Back Benches. The argument that the state does not have a role to play in so many matters falls, as is quite clear; even they may recognise that this is a problem that cannot be left to be dealt with locally and does require state intervention, hence the reason for this Bill and why I am pleased to support it.
Philip Davies
I absolutely take my hon. Friend’s point, which he makes characteristically well. The issue is whether we will end up with a level playing field. I do not doubt that we will end up with a level playing field for all legitimate scrap metal dealers—that is clearly the case—but, according to the British Metals Recycling Association, much of the problem is not with the legal dealers, but with the illegal ones, so we do not have a level playing field and all the Bill would do is further uneven it by making it even harder for legitimate sites to compete with illegal ones.
The key point—this is where we might come to some agreement—is that this could work, as the British Metals Recycling Association has stated, only if there were
“effective enforcement against unregulated operators”.
My concern is that we would have an awful lot of enforcement against regulated operators, which is what the Bill would do. It is about targeting those who are already regulated and piling more regulation on them, but that will not help to tackle the unregulated ones.
Mr Winnick
The hon. Gentleman certainly represents the most progressive part of the 18th century, but will he accept that if the organisations involved with this problem—the British Transport police, the British Metals Recycling Association, the Association of Train Operating Companies, the police generally and local authorities—believe that this is necessary and support the measure, should we not take on board what they say?
Philip Davies
I am rather wrapped up in wondering whether the hon. Gentleman’s first comment was a compliment or an insult; I will go away and think about it, but perhaps he will make it clear. I was rather startled by his second point, because I think it was the first time in all the years I have been listening to him in this House that he has seemed to have made the point that if the police think something is a good idea this House should deliver what they want. I remember when he sat on the Government Benches in the last Parliament and talked about anti-terrorist legislation, for example. He was a great champion of the view that, “Well of course the police want all these powers, but it is our job to resist giving them to them.” As someone who is generally a big fan of supporting the police, I welcome his conversion to a more authoritarian approach to crime and law and order, but it is rather uncharacteristic.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I think we are getting away from licensing. Mr Davies, I think you are desperate to get back to where you were and I am sure that you do not want to be distracted.
Philip Davies
As ever, Mr Deputy Speaker, you read me like a book. I was just thinking about how I did not want to be distracted by the hon. Gentleman, but I have every confidence that his next intervention will put us back on track.
Mr Winnick
I was not aware that I was off track last time. If it were simply the police who were saying that these measures were necessary, the hon. Gentleman, whom I would not dream of insulting, could say that the argument would not necessarily be valid, but they are one of a number of bodies that want this. What I am saying is that those who have to try to deal with the problem—I mentioned local authorities and the local police in the Walsall borough—all seem to be of the same view that it is necessary to strengthen the law.
Philip Davies
I am sure that the police are reassured to know that the hon. Gentleman is not wholeheartedly behind them, but I am sure that they still welcome his move in their direction on this issue. As I made clear just before you arrived in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, I must press on as I have to go to an engagement in Yorkshire, which will be a huge relief to all Members in the Chamber.
Olympics (Security)
David Winnick Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mrs May
My hon. Friend, as a London Member of Parliament, has made her point very appropriately and very well. I say to the Opposition that what Londoners and people across the country want is for us all to be behind the Olympics and to do what we need to do to ensure that it is a great event for the United Kingdom.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Despite all the excuses that are being made, does the Home Secretary recognise that people will see what The Daily Telegraph has written about a security farce as perfectly justified? What is so difficult to understand is that, with all the time that has been available to prepare for the Olympics, we now have this near-crisis with just 15 days to go. Why should the country be let down by the Home Secretary and by the failure to plan properly? Why should Britain become an international embarrassment as a result of her incompetence?
Mrs May
The aspect of the hon. Gentleman’s question that most strikes me is the fact that he reads The Daily Telegraph. The Home Office has ensured that contingency arrangements are in place throughout this period. We have monitored the progress and looked for reassurances from LOCOG, whose contract it is with G4S, and from G4S. As I said in answer to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, the gap in numbers that has been identified, which requires us to employ these 3,500 troops on venue security, crystallised only yesterday.
UK Border Agency
David Winnick Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Keith Vaz
I agree with the hon. Lady, but that is true not only of the elite, which includes Oxford and Oxford Brookes universities, but of all the other language schools and higher education colleges that provide such a wonderful service.
I will turn to family migration, which I know the Minister for Immigration will be asked about when he comes before the Select Committee on Tuesday. The new migration changes will come into effect on Monday. That, in my view, will be a disaster for the settled British Asian community. We are dealing not with people who come here illegally, but with the settled community, which the Prime Minister rightly praised recently at a big meeting of the Conservative Friends of India. Some 1,000 members of the diaspora turned up and listened to the Prime Minister’s speech. They liked what he said, but they will not like what the Minister and the Home Office are going to do on family visitor visas.
Last week, I was presented with a case involving a wedding that will take place in Leicester in three weeks’ time. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) and I will go along, as we do with every wedding in Leicester. Two sisters of the bride had applied to come over from Toronto. One sister had been allowed to come, but the other had been refused. I wrote a letter, because there was no time for an appeal. The appeals system is so awful and takes so long, as the Minister keeps telling us and the UKBA, that there was no point in appealing, because the appeal would have come up next year, well after the wedding. I therefore wrote to ask for a review. I wrote to my account manager, Saleah Ahmed, who is very efficient. He is a post box—he does not make the decisions, but sent my letter to New York, which is the hub for north America. The letter that I got back said, “Sorry, the second sister’s case cannot be looked at because we only look at cases where there is a death or serious injury.” The first sister will be able to get into the country for the wedding, but the second sister will not be allowed in, despite the additional evidence that I have sent in, which will not even be considered. If the bridegroom or the bride died, the decision might be reconsidered, but otherwise, the second sister will not be allowed into the country and will miss her sister’s wedding.
That situation will be repeated thousands and thousands of times when the right of appeal is removed and there is no effective system to deal with such problems. We have asked the Minister for meeting. I hope that he will meet Members from all parts of the House who have an interest in this matter. The right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), members of whose community I have met, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), who must have a huge immigration case load, the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) and the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller)—I could go round the whole Chamber—will not like a system which means that they can no longer tell their constituents that there is a right of appeal. They will not like a system in which there is no review or in which the review will take longer than the period that is left before such a wedding. We will be inundated with cases and the system will collapse.
When I and other members of the Home Affairs Committee went to meet Jonathan Sedgwick, who heads the international section of the UKBA, he did not have a plan, because there was no ministerial plan in place. It is very important that we get such a plan in place before the changes take place. I do not like those changes, of course, but I will look at the plan that is on offer.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
I am sure my right hon. Friend is aware that the last Conservative Government abolished the right of appeal. As he said, when constituents who are sponsors write to us, we then write to the UKBA or the Minister and receive the predictable reply that the case was examined by the appropriate official, who took into consideration all the details and came to a decision. Writing to the Minister or the UKBA will get us no response other than one reaffirming the refusal. That is a denial of justice and means that the entry clearance officer is judge and jury, which is totally wrong and inappropriate. I hope the Minister will reconsider it.
Keith Vaz
I agree with my hon. Friend’s comments, although I have not made those points with quite the same passion and eloquence. This issue will simply not go away.
I hope that we will also consider the quality of refusal notices. I pay tribute to John Vine, who is doing a superb job as the independent inspector. He came before the Home Affairs Committee a few years ago, just after he was appointed, and I was worried that he would not be able to do a good job, but he has done a superb job. He makes the point that the process starts with the refusal notice. If that is not clear, we cannot make progress.
I do not know whether the Minister or other Members had the chance to see the Prime Minister’s appearance before the Liaison Committee yesterday. In his answer to my question about the UKBA, he was very clear that he did not believe bonuses should be paid if the job was not being done. The £3.5 million given to senior officials of the UKBA last year, in defiance of the Home Affairs Committee’s recommendation and the views of the Prime Minister and senior Ministers, who have no control over those bonuses, was wrong. Some 25% of the senior officials at the UKBA got a bonus of up to £7,000 each last year.
The Minister knows the problems of the UKBA. He knows about the queues at Heathrow airport and is well aware of what happened with the Brodie Clark saga. It is not an organisation whose senior officials are worthy of being given bonuses. When they do a good job, as Mr Whiteman has promised to do in the end, we can consider bonuses, but certainly not at the moment.
I hope that the Minister will assure us that the 7,000 people in the Border Force will be enough to deal with the inflow of the 5 million to 11 million people who it is estimated will come to the UK in the three-week period of the Olympics. I hope that the number of people that he promised would be at the airports to check people getting in will be forthcoming.
The Home Affairs Committee does not divide on its reports if it can help it, although on points of great principle my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) does his best to encourage us to be much more challenging—I was going to say divisive—in how we present our reports. We will continue to monitor the UKBA every three months, and we will continue to give it key indicators, of which there are 47 at the moment.
The one thing that really irritates the Committee is the fact that the UKBA delays in sending us information. I put that point to the Prime Minister in the Liaison Committee yesterday. That was a problem under the Labour Government and, I am sorry to say, there is still a problem under the current Government. We are dealing by and large with the same officials—Ministers have changed, but the officials and the culture remain the same. When we write to the UKBA and ask for information, we want a reply by a deadline, because when it writes to our constituents it expects a reply by a deadline. We want to ensure that the data that we ask for are put forward and that our requests are not left on a Minister’s desk waiting to be replied to. We shall continue to hold the organisation to account in a rigorous and robust way, and we hope that that will be of benefit to Members.
Mr Ward
Absolutely. We often systematise things to try to improve them when they are really about personal relationships. We need to build close understandings and partnerships, which in our case have been to the benefit of clients with whom we have dealt.
We were told that the UKBA’s legacy of cases would be cleared, with the vast majority being fully concluded. As we now know, that meant the transferring of a big chunk of legacy cases into the controlled archive. Rightly or wrongly, the impression was given that the archive was a dumping ground and that the files were being transferred because the UKBA had given up on those cases. Dozens of people have walked into my constituency office and we have been able to find no trace of their case, because it has already been put in the controlled archive. It is then difficult to get it out again. I am sorry if this seems unfair, but it seems like our office is doing the work that the UKBA should have done, at the cost of the time that it takes away from other matters.
Will the Minister confirm or deny that cases are still being added to the controlled archive? My understanding is that if people do not turn up to report to the UKBA three times, their cases are transferred to the archive. If that is not true, a clear message needs to be put out to that effect, because that is what we are told.
Another issue that has cropped up regularly is cases being transferred into the controlled archive in error. That is not so bad if they are then retrieved and dealt with properly, but the evidence suggests that such cases go to the back of the queue when they are retrieved. That is patently unfair on people whose cases should never have been transferred in the first place. I understand that work is now taking place, with credit agencies and other means being utilised to deal with cases in the controlled archive. As I said, however, it is difficult to understand why those cases ever went there in the first place, given that other methods and techniques were available to deal with them first time around.
My final point concerns intelligence. I understand that my constituency office—one single office—accounts for 70% of the intelligence provided in the whole of the west-Yorkshire region, which indicates the number of cases we deal with and the confidence people have that they will be dealt with by my office. When I was a councillor, we were encouraged to dob in the dealers, and local residents would bring cases to us to take to the police. Those people did not hand in that information with disinterest, but wanted to know what would happen; they wanted feedback and to know whether the people dealing drugs in the phone box on the opposite side of the road had been dealt with.
We all think it important that residents support the police, but constituents want to know that something is actually happening. Yet that intelligence appears to disappear without them ever knowing what has happened, which is patently unfair, not only on my office, through which the information goes, but on the people who have provided it. Feedback is important because the people who provide the intelligence often do so at risk to themselves: they might be acting extremely bravely—they might be family members in marriages, some of them sham marriages—and under threat for having provided that evidence. Feedback, then, is not only good practice but humane. They need to know what happens to these people. Especially when there is a slow response in terms of removal, they have a right to know what is happening, because their personal safety might be at risk.
Mr Winnick
The Liberal Democrats have always supported the appeals system—as I recollect, they took the same view as us at the time of the previous Tory Government. Given that they are now part of the coalition and we know that the appeals system for visitors is being abolished, where does the hon. Gentleman stand?
Mr Winnick
I hope I am not being discourteous, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene a second time. If that is the position of the Liberal Democrats, what pressure are they putting on their coalition partner? Why are they not saying, “We won’t go along with this”?
Mr Ward
If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I would rather make my speech than the one he probably wants to make. If he makes that speech, I shall intervene and support him, but I would like to finish mine first.
We are told that the number of complaints is a direct result of the complexity of the cases and their impact on individuals. Yes, that is the case to some degree, but the truth is also that the complaints arise from sheer mismanagement—lost files, poor administration and so on. That would not be so bad if the services provided value for money, but they are hugely expensive—as much as £1,000—which means that people rightly demand, and are entitled to, a good service. Given that the appeals process can cost another £120, which they do not get back if they are successful, they have a right to a first-rate system, yet that is clearly not being delivered. Will the Minister indicate what is being done to improve the level of service? I believe that the website talks about a six-month turnaround time. Nobody believes that. They are lucky if it is eight months. So there is this question of value for money.
Sir Gerald Kaufman
I would be the first to say that it was not good enough. I remember when Charles Clarke was appointed Home Secretary. I ran into him in the Members’ Lobby, from which my office is 40 seconds away. I said, “I want you to come up to my office.” He did, and I showed him my special immigration file. I said, “I cannot lift it out of the filing cabinet. I expect, under your Home Secretaryship, to be able to lift the file.” It was not as good as it should have been. There were Ministers in that Government, including Charles Clarke and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who were personally accessible if there was a problem I wanted to discuss with them.
However, I have to tell the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) that when I was gathering these cases to present to the House this afternoon, I had to use two files because my filing cabinet is now so full that I have to divide the cases into two, so that my secretary can lift one file or the other. I am not saying that it was paradise under the Labour Government by any means; what I am saying—I do not want to patronise the hon. Gentleman, but I do have the experience—is that things are far worse now.
Let me give one more example of a constituent whom the Home Secretary wrote to me about.
Mr Winnick
The Home Affairs Committee was critical of the Labour Government at the time, although the situation was not as bad as it is now. But of course it was the last Labour Government who brought back the right of appeal.
Sir Gerald Kaufman
My hon. Friend is perfectly right; indeed, her intervention brings me to my next point, concerning visits.
One of the things about my Muslim constituents in particular—but not only my Muslim constituents—is that they have a very strong sense of family. I get case after case of somebody wanting to come here as a wedding guest but being turned down; and even with the right of appeal, the appeal process would be far longer than the period until the date of the wedding.
I raised one case in Prime Minister’s questions—the only question I have asked this Prime Minister—which involved a young woman in my constituency who wanted her 72-year-old grandmother to come to her wedding. Her grandmother was turned down, one of the reasons being that if she came here, she would try to get a job. Seventy-two years old; never left Pakistan in her life; cannot speak English; unemployment in my constituency at 10.7%—and this cunning old lady was going to twist her granddaughter’s wedding into an opportunity to get a job.
Tom Brake
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, which shows that it is essential for us collectively to identify such problems; we might believe that these are individual cases, but when the feedback comes in from all MPs, we see that the issue is a much wider one.
A number of Members have referred to data. Clearly, without strong data, it is difficult to determine whether policy is effective. I greatly welcome the fact that, following pressure from the Liberal Democrats on an issue that we have been running with for a number of years, exit checks will be reintroduced. Ultimately, that is the only way to secure high-quality data that can effectively inform debate.
On the problem of backlogs, I am sure the Minister will have received the briefing from the Immigration Law Practitioners Association, which many of us, too, have received for today’s debate. The briefing refers to the definition of a review, and it challenges the UKBA statement that reviews have been carried out in respect of all asylum backlog cases. That might involve a definitional issue involving what constitutes a review. A paper review may involve no contact with either the legal representatives or the individual who is the subject of the review. In any event, the ILPA is concerned about whether every case has been reviewed.
I do not know whether the Minister was quoted accurately when he was reported to have said:
“The UK has been forced to launch a global charm offensive to convince foreign students it is not against immigration”.
The quotation comes from a BBC report headed “Please come to UK”. The Minister is shaking his head, so it appears it that is not an accurate representation of what he said. Whether it is or not, however, I should like him to tell me whether the capacity exists to make what I accept is a difficult distinction between students who, having applied to attend a college here quite legitimately, find that between their application and their arrival the college has been shut down—for perfectly legitimate reasons—and has taken their money but will not give them what they wanted, and those who are not students but have colluded to come here for purposes other than study. It would be helpful to be able to distinguish such people from students who fall foul of the rules through no fault of their own.
Mr Winnick
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was going to mention this, but may I put to him the question that I put earlier to his hon. Friend the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward)? If he and his party believe that the appeals system is right for visitors, what input, if any, is the coalition receiving from his party on the issue?
Tom Brake
We have made written representations, but the hon. Gentleman may not have heard something that I said earlier. The most significant thing that the Government can do on behalf of everyone—the UKBA, the Government and, indeed, applicants—is ensure that the correct decisions are made the first time round.
The ILPA has drawn Members’ attention to changes made in October 2010 to the policy on suitability for detention. It alleges that conditions have worsened considerably, especially for people with serious medical conditions. Has the Minister had any dialogue with the UKBA on the subject, and is he satisfied that the rules ensure that a person’s health can be taken into account?
I shall not go into my final point in any great detail, because it has already been raised in the context of HC 194 “Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules”. Concern has been expressed not just about typographical errors, but about instances in which the understanding of the rules may have been different from what their intention now appears to be. The issue is too detailed for the Minister to respond now, but I hope that he will be able to clarify the Government’s position. I know that he has the relevant documentation.
I think that the coalition Government have made progress, particularly, I am pleased to say, on the issue of child detention, which was mentioned earlier. However, I accept that they still have a considerable distance to go.
European Convention on Human Rights
David Winnick Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Following the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), I should like some clarification. As has been emphasised several times this afternoon, the immigration rules are being changed, presumably arising from the Home Secretary’s statement last week. Will Parliament have the opportunity to debate those changes?
Mrs May
The immigration rules have been laid and it is open to any Member of the House to pray against them and see whether they can initiate a debate on them in the House. [Interruption.] It is open to anybody to pray against the immigration rules if they wish to debate the detail of them. I will refer to the changes that are being made. What we are saying today is that article 8 should be qualified in line with the immigration rules. I think I have repeated the motion several times.
Stephen Lawrence
David Winnick Excerpts(12 years ago)
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James Brokenshire
Any allegations that have been made should be investigated properly and thoroughly, and anyone found to be responsible for wrongdoing should be dealt with in the firmest and most robust way. I think it is appropriate that matters are allowed to be investigated, but I do not in any way underestimate the seriousness of the issues at hand, the need for matters to be resolved speedily and the need for the public to have the necessary confidence in the police.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
May I reinforce the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott)? What we do not want is a rerun of what occurred after the murder, when all attempts to get an inquiry were dismissed. I was one of those who, along with my hon. Friend, was urging such an inquiry at the time. Was not the inquiry set up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) fully justified? Just imagine what the position would have been if it had not been established. I hope the Home Secretary will seriously consider the latest requests from the family.
James Brokenshire
Certainly I recognise the very important recommendations made as a consequence of the Macpherson inquiry. As I have said, the police service has taken really important steps since then to deal with racism in the police. The police service is not institutionally racist, but further steps do need to be taken. The lead that the Metropolitan Police Commissioner has provided on this in his recent statements should be followed throughout the police service across the country.
Abu Qatada
David Winnick Excerpts(12 years, 1 month ago)
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Mrs May
My hon. Friend has made an extremely valuable point. I have found that many people here in the UK consider it astonishing that there is no simple mechanism for setting a clear deadline and then striking out any applications that fall outside that deadline. What is absolutely clear is that the panel of the Grand Chamber has discretion to accept applications made outside the deadline, and to determine what that deadline was.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
In view of the xenophobia and hysteria on the Tory Benches, why does the Home Secretary not have the courage to say that it is a lie that the European Court of Human Rights is in the business of trying to protect terrorists—last week’s decision contradicts that—and is it not a great advance for Europe that there is such a court in the first place?
Mrs May
We have made it clear that we are abiding by the rule of law. We have abided by the decisions made by the European Court. We now believe that we have the assurances that we need in order to be able to challenge the Court’s decision in relation to article 6, which was the ground on which it prevented the deportation of Abu Qatada. We believe that the right way of dealing with the issue of his deportation was to gain those assurances from the Jordanian Government. Obviously we will await the European Court’s decision on whether to accept the application for a referral.