Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting)

David Simmonds Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We have until 2.20 pm for this segment. Dr Malcolm James is a tax and accountancy specialist and a former senior lecturer in taxation and accountancy at Cardiff Metropolitan University. Before I call the first question, I remind Members that they must remain within the scope of the Bill, which is tightly defined, and that we have to stick to the timings. I call the shadow Minister.

[David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)]

Q57 Welcome, Dr James. May I start by asking for your view of the impact the Bill, particularly with reference to high streets?

Dr James: With reference to the private schools?

[David Simmonds]

In this sitting, the evidence has so far covered both private schools and high streets. You are a tax and accountancy specialist, so you have a broad overview. Is that correct?

Dr James: Yes. The vast majority of private schools are charitable institutions; as such, they have no owners. Therefore the effect of tax will have to be borne in one of two ways: the institutions will need to bear the cost through a reduced surplus, or they will need to pass it on, in whole or in part, to the families of the pupils, by raising fees.

It is clearly no coincidence that the Bill follows hard on the heels of the imposition of VAT, which will come into effect, I believe, at the beginning of next month. There has been an awful lot of coverage, of one sort or another, of the effect of that change. We are looking at the removal of the discount, which is something like 80%, on non-domestic rates. That will increase their property taxes. Although it will doubtless not be as significant as the imposition of VAT, it will have an effect. They will have either to absorb it or to pass it on to the families of the pupils.

[David Simmonds]

Q Thank you very much. There has been an extensive debate about VAT, although that is outside of the scope of this Bill. We have spent a good deal of time debating the impact on special educational needs schools, a significant proportion of which are in the private sector. Some are paid for directly through fees charged to parents; some are paid for through education, health and care plans supplied by local authorities. Do you have a view about how the measures in the Bill will impact special educational needs provision?

Dr James: I have every sympathy with the families of children who have a variety of special needs, and I do not want to see them suffer in any way, but I want to address one of the points that private schools make, which is that the parents are virtuous and self-sacrificing because they pay again for education and thereby relieve the state of a burden.

In this country, unlike countries in the eurozone, we have a sovereign Bank of England, which creates the pound sterling. It is not revenue constrained, even though the Government usually tend to behave as if it were by convention. There are real economic factors that restrict the amount that it is wise for the Bank of England to produce, or to allow the Government to spend into circulation, but the availability of money is not a limiting factor. There is therefore no inherent reason why the state cannot provide education for children with special educational needs; it is just that various Governments of various complexions have chosen not to do so.

The question is always about the transition, because whatever we do, things are not going to change overnight. You do not want to disadvantage pupils who are currently in the system or will shortly go into the system, but there are workarounds. I do not know whether you remember this, but the parent of a child with special needs was going to be one of the people put forward to front a judicial review to challenge this proposal, and she pulled out when significant funding was found, so there are workarounds if the will is there. In the longer term, there is no inherent reason why it has to be done by the private sector.

[The Minister for Local Government and English Devolution (Jim McMahon)]

Q Thank you, Dr James, for taking the time to give evidence today. We are particularly interested in the evidence you have amassed on the impact of this proposal. Where should the Government focus in mitigating the impact during the course of the process? To take what I think I have heard, the evidence you have provided is that, as a starting principle, the Government do not need to go here because there are plenty of other options, but the fact is that we have chosen to go here. What we are trying to get from the evidence sessions is that, within the decision that has been taken—

Dr James: I am sorry; I am having a bit of difficulty hearing what you are saying distinctly.

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[The Chair]

We have until five past 3 for this block of questions. We start with the shadow Minister.

[David Simmonds]

Q Thank you, Dr Huq. Welcome to both of our witnesses. We are aware, as a Committee, that the sector you represent is very significant in the UK economy. Would you be able to give us an indication of how you assess the impact of the measures in the Bill on the businesses and organisations that you represent?

Kate Nicholls: Looking specifically at this Bill, in particular, and just at those measures, I think hospitality is overtaxed when it comes to business rates. It has been for some time. If you look at the system without reliefs, hospitality pays around 12% to 13% of all business rates, but represents 5% of GDP. If you look at the system with rate relief, the high street businesses—hospitality and retail—even with those reliefs, pay 34% of all business taxes.

There is a disproportionate burden, and it has grown over time. That is particularly because there has been a move towards there being more online businesses, whereas ours are bricks and mortar, and they are in prime locations. You cannot provide our services online, so we are in high street locations, where the businesses are heavily invested. Hotels and pubs are taxed for business rates on the basis of their turnover. They can be high-turnover but low-margin businesses, therefore they bear a disproportionate burden of tax.

Reliefs have been in place for a considerable time. Through the covid pandemic, they were a vital lifeline. However, reliefs are annual discounts and they are sticking plasters. They show that the system as a whole is failing, and a systemic failure needs a systemic solution. The Bill is a systematic solution to the problem because it seeks to permanently rebalance the online and the offline—bricks and mortar, and clicks and mortar—so that there can be a permanent discount. The fact that it is permanent means that those businesses can have the certainty and stability to be able to invest over a three to five-year rental period and over the period of a revaluation.

That permanent rebalancing is undoubtedly welcome. It is a change for which we have been pushing for a considerable time, and it will materially impact and benefit the businesses that we are looking to support—the high street businesses so vital to employment across our communities—for a longer period of time.

Steve Alton: I would agree with my colleague on the core points. Pubs are uniquely disadvantaged for two reasons: first, they have to occupy those buildings at the heart of communities and high streets; and secondly, they employ huge numbers of people, many in their first job, and many part-time workers. That is why—contextually; I appreciate this is outside the scope of the Bill—the impact of the national insurance contributions is hitting employees incredibly hard. That is because of the large proportion of part-timers we support in our industry.

Business rates are business critical—they have been in terms of relief levels. Last time, when we achieved the 75% relief, that saved a huge number of pubs. That said, because of the compound impact of energy—that is still ever-present: we are paying double the rates that we were paying pre-pandemic—there is still a structural issue in the market. In addition, food and drink inflation has had compound inflation within it. We have been running at 20% a year for the past couple of years.

Then, obviously, there are labour costs. While we pride ourselves on paying above the minimum wage in many scenarios, we have many stepping-on points in our trade for the start of careers, be that front of house or back of house. We pride ourselves on accelerating those people forward. However, we obviously need a large number of those individuals within the business.

The business rate relief that we received was key, but even with that, things have been pretty perilous. We check in with our membership on a regular basis. Even before the Budget, only one in four of our members was making a clear profit, and half would at best break even. That is before the measures announced by the Government, so the compound impact of those announcements has driven our membership to believe that 80% of them will be unprofitable. Some 75% are cutting paid hours, one in three are making redundancies, and one in four fear that they will be untenable, and that they will fail as a business, when those costs come in. Bearing in mind that most pubs have, on average, 15 to 20 employees, that would have a huge impact on communities, and particularly on disadvantaged individuals who start their careers not with any great secondary education but with capability and character. We can give them that professional development.

Having certainty and a long-term reduction in business rates is critical for planning, because right now investment is being held back—in property and in the evolution of the pub. The pub is a very different vehicle from 20 years ago. If you are a non-drinker, you have a particular food that you wish to eat, or you just want to go to an event and connect with a community, safeguarding against loneliness and isolation, which are real, present issues, we provide that community service, for many reasons, and have evolved the model. As I say, the pub is no longer a drinks-led venue. Do not get me wrong: we are still very proud of what we do around great beers from the locality, but we offer so much more.

The commitment to the relief has been a lifeline. It would be great, alongside the Bill, to see the full level of relief continued, because it will drop off on 1 April, which will effectively double the rate costs being paid by small operators. When 80% are unprofitable, that might be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Unfortunately, we will lose some long-term viable businesses, through no fault of their own. Market dynamics have put them in a very difficult position. We welcome the Bill, the two tiers, and the permanence and surety of reduced business rates, but Kate alluded to the fact that we need to reduce the overall tax burden. For every £3 that goes across the bar, £1 is coming to the Government in taxation. That is too much. Rebalancing that, which the Bill is a key part of, will unleash investment in people, in property and in providing that community service on an ongoing basis. The pub is probably the last true place that is accessible for all people in a community to come together.

[David Simmonds]

Q May I follow up with a further question, specifically on pubs and hotels? We are aware that the nature of those premises often does not lend them to easy conversion into another business use, unlike a lot of retail shops, for example, which could change between offices and use by different kinds of businesses. Mr Alton, you highlighted sustainability as a concern, given that the Bill, although it embeds it permanently, represents an increase in the business rates cost. What further steps would you like to see taken to help to ensure that sustainability, particularly of hotel and pub premises, is supported through the system?

Steve Alton: Building on that point from a pub perspective, it is about rebalancing taxation overall for pubs, and making it fair. We have always consulted with Ministers and officials across Government on solutions. Our members will always argue for VAT to be reduced on pub sales, because they saw that support in the pandemic and it was an instant injection of cash into their business. It was not about profiteering. Kate alluded to the fact that a pub is a low-margin business. It needs to be profitable because pubs need to continue to evolve the model and invest in what they are doing. We all want to go to great pubs, which do exist. Some of them, despite all these challenges, are doing very well, but they are the outliers. It is the mid-pack operators, who have been doing this for decades and have had long-term viable businesses, who now, frankly, face some very tough decisions.

We are incredibly concerned. At the moment, pubs are all busy looking after customers, which is great; you will see pubs at their best. In January, when it gets quiet and they reconcile the numbers, and there is a head-over-heart moment, I fear that we will lose a lot. If it is one in four, that could mean that we lose up to 15,000 pubs. They will not recover, because they will get boarded up. You see them in all the communities that you represent. They do not come back. When that happens, you have a whole rack of associated issues involving social deprivation and disorder. We work closely as an industry with schemes such as Best Bar None, which is all about creating safe spaces for socialising and, through that, seize the positive impact of hospitality—increased footfall, lower crime, lower social disorder and people feeling safe, because people are out and about in those communities and high streets. That is absolutely key.

Kate Nicholls: Some elements are there. This is a really welcome first step, but the pledge is for root-and-branch reform of business rates, and that is what high street businesses have been calling out for, for 20 years, really. I think that there is need for further reform of the system—you asked particularly about the business rate system—where support could be provided.

Three key elements are included within the wider package of reforms in the consultation paper that was published with the Budget. First, we in the hospitality sector often get penalised for investing in our premises. That delivers higher turnover, but then you get taxed—it is a tax on success and it happens frequently. The suggestion is for a longer period after a significant investment is made before the Valuation Office Agency can come to do a revaluation and look at taking an additional chunk in business rates. That would be incredibly welcome. We suggest that that should be at least as long as the first revaluation period post an investment being made, so that you do not get that significant change.

The second element is the interrelation between business rates and other tax factors for investment in the premises. Again, that is about the penalisation. At the moment, that is around capital allowances, but capital allowances do not extend to leased property. Only about a third of the products that are invested in when upgrading a pub or hotel are capable of being covered by capital allowances. As Steve said eloquently, you only pay corporation tax when you make a profit, and if you are not making a profit, capital allowances do not really help you. We need to look at other ways—perhaps research and development tax credits or discounts off the business rates for investment in green technology, but things that help to incentivise rather than penalise people for making an investment in their premises.

The third element is not in the scope of the consultation, but it does need to be taken forward. There is a very delicate balance between rent and rates, and they are supposed to be self-correcting. In our sector they are not, because rental and lease periods are long, and there are upward-only rent review clauses in most high street and city centre premises. That means that your rent and rates bills cannot reset themselves when there are changes in the market, in the same way as with retail in the high street. There was an outstanding consultation on commercial leases, which was looking at a ban on upward-only rent review clauses. It would be significantly helpful if the Department took that forward separately, as part of a high street strategy.

[Jim McMahon]

Q Thank you for giving evidence, and for the insight that you provided, which I thought was very comprehensive and gave a good insight into the industry. We all accept just how important pubs are, not just to the economy, but to our communities. In many places, they are where communities come together, where families meet and where memories are made. In many working-class communities, they are also buildings of note—of interest—that add character. All that is taken, and the work that your members do is appreciated. The Government are trying to give certainty in the system and to say that it is not good enough that, year on year, you do not know what is coming down the line. We want you to be able to plan ahead. We want you to know the Government will stand with you.

There will always be limitations on just how far any Government action can go, but we believe that this is a comprehensive package that gets the right balance between the online retailers and large distribution warehouses, and those on the street and in communities. On the quite stark warning that was issued about the potential for one in four pubs—15,000, potentially—to close, how would that compare with the past 10 years, say, so that we can put it into the context of the number of pubs that have closed in that period?

Steve Alton: It would be a huge acceleration. The smoking ban was a huge intervention that drove habits and change. In essence, our operators would accept now that it had a silver lining, in a sense, because they had to modernise and make pubs far more open and accessible to all, but this would be an acceleration in the magnitude of failure. We are currently losing about 50 a month. You have seen that in the figures and in the insolvency numbers. You will also see that in your local communities. It is clearly a significant acceleration if you annualise that rate. It will be a cliff edge. Certainty is important.

I will give you an example of—Kate is spot-on about this—penalising success. There is a great operator who runs a brilliant bar in the centre of Manchester. He has tripled his turnover in the past few years from £350,000 to £1 million. He employs 30 people, including a lot of part-time staff and students. He has seen business rates rise in line with that, and that has not given him a breathing space. He currently makes about £60,000 to the bottom line on a £1 million-turnover business. The Budget change will wipe all that out. People will come to a decision about whether running a pub is the right thing to be doing. As you articulated, many of our operators have a social purpose. They want to be in their communities, adding value. For them, it is not an overt commercial play. If it were, the head-over-heart decision would already have driven some of them out. They just need certainty and a little bit of hope.

We are encouraged by the direction of travel. Having the two multipliers specifically for hospitality is fantastic. I encourage applying the maximum in the Bill because it is needed now. We have got a revaluation coming up. As Kate intimated, it probably will not reflect the reality of rents because it will not take into account what happened in the Budget, how that drives the market and the pretty rapid impact that will have. By the time the revaluation comes round, it will not reflect that. There is a consideration about the underlying multiplier, from which the 20p is applied, being dropped, and that being kept under continuous review.

We do not want to penalise operators who invest money and put their heart and soul into these businesses. They want to do many things and they can do them very quickly. One of our platforms is the Sustainability Champion award. We write to all you guys about it—hopefully you will have had some letters from our organisation—applauding the efforts of operators in your localities. They do amazing things rapidly, but some of that is capital restricted. They want to move to fully electric kitchens, and they want self-generation systems and recharging points in their car parks. Some have made that leap, but they are the outliers who can afford to do it. Access to capital is a huge issue in our marketplace. A mid-tier operator cannot get it right now. Banks are just saying no. If we look at the profit and loss, we can perhaps understand why they are saying that, but it creates a negative corkscrew.

We see the direction of travel positively, but I implore the Committee to apply the maximum on the two lower thresholds and keep the overriding multiplier firmly in your sights and make sure it goes down. We want to reduce the tax our pubs pay, not because the money will go into their bank accounts but because it will unlock investment and surety. On tenure, you will know publicans who have been there for 10 or 20 years—they want to commit to those ventures long term. It is not a short-term money-making exercise. It is far more purposeful than that.

Kate Nicholls: May I answer your question about the number of closures most recently? Last year, there were 3,000 closures in total across hospitality as a whole. Since covid, there has been a reduction of about 20% in neighbourhood independent restaurants and 30% in neighbourhood independent nightclubs and late-night music venues. Closures are not just a pub issue. It is hitting across the board. It has also hit a large number of guest houses, bed and breakfasts and independent hotels.

One driver is investment in openings. Unfortunately, a small number of closures will happen every year. It is a devastating human tragedy for those involved, but business failures happen. What drives the numbers is the lack of new openings and investment coming through to reopen premises and get businesses moving again. Business rates are a significant factor in that. I have so many discussions with people about investment in the sector, whether that is foreign direct investment, major private equity or small-scale bank investment. Corporation tax never comes up. Business rates are always an inhibiting factor for investment, so this is really significant.

I echo Steve’s point about the importance of using the maximum for the two rates—the standard rate and the lower rate. There is often a misapprehension that the lower rate is small business and the standard rate is large business. That is not the case. We have many independent, single-site businesses that will be in the upper rate. Applying the 20p discount to both is therefore important. About 30% of hospitality businesses that pay business rates are in the standard multiplier tier, and they account for 60% of employment and 60% turnover.

Let us not kid ourselves, either, that the super-rate charged at £500,000-plus will not have an impact. A small but significant number of hospitality venues are caught within that multiplier. I am not sure that that was always intended, given that—as you rightly say, Minister—it was designed to capture online businesses, so we could look again at some of those higher rates. The Bill gives scope for different businesses to be treated differently in that £500,000-plus tier, and we urge you to make use of that, as well as of the maximum 20p discounts below.

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[Jim McMahon]

That was not my point. I did not use those words.

Steve Alton: But having that assurance is a key part of it. Uncertainty has been impactful on business rates. It has stopped small operators from taking another site. If they take another site, you are talking about £300,000 to £400,000 of capital investment to build a new team of 40 employees, and there is a compound impact on the supply chain locally. A lot of people have held a station and have the ability to do it, but it is just not viable with the business rates bill as it is now. You could unlock some significant investment and growth, and, as we have shown previously, you could do so rapidly.

[David Simmonds]

Q I want to ask about the impact of the multiplier and the discretion around it. One of the things that we are all well aware of is that local authorities, in particular, are very big customers of hotels. They are particularly in search of temporary accommodation, which is especially significant at this time of year. There is often a strong incentive to make sure there is a sustainable hotel sector in a given location to provide for that emergency housing need, as well as for other, wider purposes, such as supporting tourism.

Is it your view that there should be discretion on the part of the billing authority so that if they need a sustainable hotel sector in order to meet temporary emergency housing need, or to accommodate significant numbers of refugees arriving, pending onward placement elsewhere, they are able to negotiate? If those businesses go to the wall because of a lack of profit margin, the taxpayer will have to be billed significantly more because those people will have to be placed in accommodation at a higher cost elsewhere.

Kate Nicholls: May I just say that the overwhelming majority of hotels are used by visitors for leisure and business purposes? Our hotel sector is a vital component of our tourism industry and is our second-largest service export earner, in the form of tourism. That is just to put your question in context.

As I understand it, local authorities will have discretionary powers to apply additional relief to those premises, but not to change the multiplier, which is set nationally. It is important that that is retained so that there is a national multiplier. You get distortions if you have different rates. There is discretion if a local authority wants to support a particular business—if it is impacted by flooding, for example, or the authority wants to maintain the provision of a service. The local authority can apply additional discretionary relief over and above the nationally mandated relief. That obviously comes out of its own funding. That is a better way of doing it than changing the multiplier. There is a question about whether local authorities should retain an element of the business rates so they have the discretion to fund, but that is a bigger discussion and is not within the scope of the Bill.

[Martin Wrigley (Newton Abbot) (LD)]

Q Apologies for being late; I got caught in traffic behind a tractor. I thank the panel for their evidence. I am a coastal Devon MP, and within my constituency are Dawlish and Teignmouth. We have some major holiday sites in that area that I am fairly sure will fall into the upper brackets. What is your feeling on the changing situation? As I understand it, we have the 75% reduction right now, we are going to the 40% reduction, and then we are going to the multiplier system. Will it cause problems to be chopping and changing every year?

Kate Nicholls: I think the line of sight and the longer change going forward is really helpful to have set out at this Budget. The rates, we understand, will have to be set when you know what the multiplier is going forward. If you had the maximum 20p discount from the current multiplier, that is broadly equivalent to 40%. That is if the multiplier stays the same; it could actually reduce. It remains to be seen, however, what happens when we come to the end of 2025-26 towards ’26-27 and the longer term. It could look as though it is broadly the same.

Regarding the 40% now, any relief is better than nothing at this point in time—we were facing a major cliff edge. We should, however, be in no doubt that those businesses eligible for relief—given there was a cap, it is the smaller businesses—are facing a significant increase in their business rates bills from April. For the sector as a whole, it is an extra £0.5 billion of tax. If you look at the Budget measures as a whole, we are facing £3.4 billion as a sector: the cumulative impact of the reduction in relief and an increase in bills. On top of everything else, they will have a big chunk of money to pay out additionally going forward. Although 40% is better than nothing, as Steve said, it is less than 75%.

I would just say that when Wales reduced relief to 40% last year, closures in Wales were a third higher than they were in England. Scotland reduced it to zero and failures in Scotland were significantly higher in the hospitality sector as a result. It does have real-world impacts. You cannot take it away from the overall context of the tax situation we are facing as a result of the Budget coming into effect in April, and there is the combined effect of all that happening at the same time.

It should, however, smooth out after that. There is longer-term certainty and, crucially, the new multipliers will apply to each and every premises—there is no state aid threshold or cap. Previously, that has been limited, where the effects of the relief were effectively limited to businesses that had two or three sites. Multi-site businesses and those with larger premises will now benefit going forward, so the industry as a whole will be on a much more sustainable footing, longer term.

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[The Chair]

Q We now move on to oral evidence from the Independent Schools’ Bursars Association and the Independent Schools Council. We have until 3.40 pm, and we are expecting votes as well, just to make it even more exciting. As they take their seats, could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?

Barnaby Lenon: Good afternoon, everybody. I am Barnaby Lenon, a chairman of the Independent Schools Council, which represents 600,000 pupils—about 80% of independent school pupils—in the United Kingdom. It is also worth knowing that I set up a state school in east London—the London Academy of Excellence—and I am currently a governor of 11 state schools in Birmingham.

David Woodgate: Good afternoon. I am David Woodgate, chief executive of the Independent Schools’ Bursars Association, which has 1,300 member schools, and we support those schools in all business aspects of the running of an independent school.

Simon Nathan: Good afternoon. My name is Simon Nathan, the deputy chief executive and head of policy at the Independent Schools Council.

Don Beattie: I am Don Beattie, a private-practice chartered surveyor specialising in rating. I am a technical adviser to the Independent Schools’ Bursars Association and I am here in case anything technical should arise.

[David Simmonds]

Q I declare for the record that I have a significant number of independent schools, nurseries and other institutions in my constituency, two of which my family are customers of. We need to stick very much within the scope of the legislation, but the feedback I have had from the sector is that it has felt like a very difficult time indeed, being on the end of a targeted attack on your education sector.

There are a number of proposals on the nature of business rates and how they are applied. A lot of schools are not merely involved in education but have things such as nurseries and other ancillary facilities on site. Could you give us an indication of how your members would be impacted by what is proposed in the Bill? Do you consider that improvements could be made to take account of the fact that, for example, if a nursery is in a separate building on a separate site, it is not within scope, but if it is on the same site, it is within scope?

Barnaby Lenon: We are trying to make two points today. One is that the Bill is inadvertently creating a two-tier charity system—we may come back to that. The other point, which I think relates to your question, is about the impacts on our schools, including faith schools, but more particularly on our pupils and parents. David, you are probably best placed to answer the question on the finances.

David Woodgate: The impact on finances is material. I accept that we are talking about business rates today, but we cannot do that in isolation in respect of the other three financial shocks impacting on independent schools within the past 12 months. The first was the increase in teacher’s pension contributions from April last year, going from 23.6% to 28.68%. Secondly, in common with every other business, the national insurance increases and the lowering of the threshold have a material impact on our schools. Some 70% of the cost base of a typical independent school is staff costs, so clearly that will have an impact, and schools have just not had the time to prepare for that—to build it into their budgets, and indeed their fees, for the remainder of the current academic year. We also have a 20% VAT rate from 1 January, with just two months in which to have prepared for that. There was a reasonable expectation that that would not happen at least until next September.

Alongside those three financial factors, business rate relief is—dare I say it—the icing on the cake. It is the fourth leg of a quadruple whammy that will impact extremely negatively on our schools. They are considering closure. Probably the only lever that a lot of our schools have to face up to some of these challenges is redundancies. I have schools that are now looking at redundancies. Most teachers are on one term’s notice, so it has not worked through yet, but, over the course of the rest of this academic year, I think that will inevitably be the response of many of our schools. They just cannot afford those four elements all together.

If I were to make a plea, it would be to give us some grace on the implementation of the business rate relief, as a way of helping schools to get through an unprecedented number of financial shocks. If it could at least be deferred until April 2026, or perhaps phased in, with a 20% reduction over each year up to five years, that would be of tremendous assistance to schools labouring under a real financial burden that is not impacting on any other section of the economy. No other section of the economy has those four shocks simultaneously.

[David Simmonds]

Q Could one of the panel return to the point about the hereditaments, as in the sites and the impact where you have multiple different types of service on a given site, and where, if those were separated out, they would not be subject to and come within the business rate changes? With nursery care in particular, where they are co-located, the whole site is subject to that.

May I ask about one of the things we will consider tomorrow? I think most of us will have been contacted by constituents who have been displaced from the independent sector but are unable to secure places in the state sector. What about supporting state schools that have to deal with that in-year impact, whereby they will not be funded through the normal autumn-winter pupil count, because that has already taken place, and therefore will have to wait a long time before they see any additional funding? We could consider ringfencing the proceeds locally, so at least that would mitigate some of the impact of that displacement at a local level. I am interested in whether you have a view of what mitigations—by way of local discretion, ringfencing of the proceeds, or otherwise—we could put in place, in particular to help those families who have been pushed out of the independent sector but are unable to secure a funded state school place for their child at this point.

Simon Nathan: There is a number of areas. In terms of mitigations of the Bill and relieving pressure on the state sector, one area where we have concerns, for example, is the treatment of children with special educational needs. I say at the outset that we wholly recognise the measures in the Bill to exempt those schools with more than 50% of their pupils on education, health and care plans, but the independent sector as a whole educates 130,000 children with special educational needs—100,000 do not have EHCPs and 30,000 do. Those pupils will be scattered across different schools in the sector. Often, they will be in smaller schools with small class sizes, and not all those schools will get the protection of that EHCP threshold. Those schools will be faced with paying the business rates bill or parents seeing some of that passed on to their fees.

We know it is not the best time for there to be more SEND pupils going into the state sector. Only yesterday, the Institute for Fiscal Studies put out a report saying that high needs budgets were £3 billion in deficit. One of the mitigations we would like to see is an expansion of the exemptions given to pupils with special educational needs and disabilities, perhaps exempting schools having 50% or more of pupils with SEN but not necessarily always on an EHCP, so that they can also benefit from that type of exemption to mitigate the additional pressures on local authorities’ SEND provision.

Don Beattie: May I add to what Simon is saying? Currently, the provision is written such that that EHCP is the determinant for excluding the school from the definition of “private school”. However, in schedule 5 to the Local Government Finance Act 1988, you will find an adequate definition of “disability”, which references the Equality Act 2010.

[David Simmonds]

Q To pursue that technical point, under the SEND system in the state sector, as well as the statement—now, the educational, health and care plan—you traditionally had structures such as school action and school action plus. A child whose identified needs were not sufficient to trigger the issuing of an EHCP, but did require additional resource, would get it provided through their state school. Is there a case for saying that any child who might not have a statement, but who would have qualified for school action or school action plus, should also fall within the scope of the exemption?

Simon Nathan: We recognise that there has to be some sort of boundary, and obviously it would not be possible to draw up an exemption based on a tax on property that exempted every pupil with SEN. Our suggestion is that schools where more than 50% of pupils get SEN support would benefit from that exemption. We looked at the numbers, and that would bring in perhaps an extra 100 schools and an extra 4,500 pupils. Clearly, if you are a pupil in a school that has more than 50% SEN, you are going to have a certain level of need, and perhaps the needs cannot always be catered for in a mainstream school.

[Jim McMahon]

Q Thank you for the evidence you have given, and for making the time to come to this evidence session, which is our opportunity to get an insight into the nuances and how things feel on the ground. We talk about private schools and the independent sector, but the truth is that those terms represent a broad spread of different types of schools in terms of their make-ups, pupil numbers, financial models and so on. It would be helpful to get a snapshot of the variety of schools in the system, including by perhaps comparing and contrasting a couple of different schools, and then I will follow up.

Barnaby Lenon: We have a huge range of types of school. At one end, there are quite expensive boarding schools. Their fees are often quoted, but it is very expensive to run a boarding school. They are not typical, because the average independent school in our sector has 280 pupils—so it is pretty small—and half are smaller than that. I have been a governor of schools with 120 pupils, but the special needs schools we are talking about often have 50 pupils. There are plenty of faith schools, about which Simon will talk in a moment, that also have very small numbers, yet are quite important in their particular faith community.

The average fee for a day school is about £18,000, but half are less than that, and there are some with incredibly small fees—just a couple of thousand a year, which is less than would normally be spent on a pupil in a state school. There is a massive range in terms of fee and size of school. We are particularly concerned about the low-cost and small schools, because those are the most vulnerable. They are already closing. Through our surveys, they have told us that they are going to close if the situation continues as, so far as one can see, it is going to continue.

Simon Nathan: As Barnaby said, there is a range: 1,000 schools, or 40% of the schools in our sector, have fewer than 100 pupils, so they are not always very big schools.

To touch briefly on faith schools, 20,000 children attend Muslim faith schools in our sector, and those schools charge an average of £3,000 per year in fees. There are Orthodox Jewish Haredi schools in our sector—65 schools that educate 20,000 children. On average, those schools ask for about £100 a week or less, and those schools are modelled in such a way that if a family comes in that cannot afford the fees, the school will accept them anyway. It is the community that steps in and fundraises to make up that financial difference.

To give an example, those types of Orthodox Jewish Haredi schools run on a low-fee model, and quite a lot of them are in London where there are high property prices. As Haredi Jewish families tend to have more children on average, a lot of those schools will have pupil numbers of around 800, so they will be in quite large buildings and will have quite large rates bills when this change comes into effect. I have spoken to representatives of those communities who are extremely concerned by the impact that this will have. They use a low-fee model, so they do not get huge amounts of money in fees, but the rates bill could be tens of thousands of pounds, if not more. The only way that those schools can bridge that gap is through fundraising from the synagogues in the community. If that money cannot come forward, those schools just do not have the money to pay the bill, so they are very concerned.

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[The Chair]

Rachel Kelly is assistant director of tax and finance policy at the British Property Federation. This is a one-man panel until 4 pm.

[David Simmonds]

Q Clearly, the Bill has wide-ranging impact across different types of property, but I ask this witness to give us a sense—from the perspective of the British Property Federation, which I understand to be largely about the transactions that sit behind property—of what you perceive to be the impact of the measures of the Bill on the day-to-day business of your organisation.

Rachel Kelly: Thank you for having me. I am Rachel Kelly, assistant director of tax and finance policy at the British Property Federation. We represent members who invest in property across the UK. Our investors are typically long-term institutional investors in all sorts of commercial property—not only the traditional asset classes of retail, logistics and offices, but newer asset classes of datacentres, lab space, GP surgeries and so on. That is just to give you some background.

We have lobbied about business rates for a very long time. We are big stakeholders in property and we want to see a functional, fair and responsive tax system, so our two fundamental and long-standing asks of business rate reform are these. First, the tax burden is very high, and the property tax burden in the UK is over double the OECD average, so we have a very high tax burden on property and we would like to see that come down. The Bill does not achieve that; it does the opposite, because the temporary relief for retail, hospitality and leisure had been funded by central Government and it proposes to bring that funding within the business rate system, so that the tax burden to fund the relief for some sectors will fall on all business.

Our second fundamental ask for reform of business rates is to have a more responsive tax system, which responds more quickly to changes in the economy and in rent. It is difficult to say, but the Bill is relatively radical—it introduces new tax rates for different asset classes, and different valuation points—so it will add a bit more complexity into the system. It will also introduce new cliff edges into the system, which arguably could create more contention on valuation. I know you have already heard from people giving evidence about the huge backlogs in the valuation system in appeals. Potentially, with the new cliff-edge points, we could create yet more appeals. All that, coupled with the additional complexity, will probably make it even harder to automate, digitalise and reach more frequent evaluations, which we think should be the ultimate goal of the business rate system.

[David Simmonds]

Q As you mentioned, many things going on in the system at the moment have an impact. Clearly, that level of investor confidence is crucial if high streets and the business environment generally are to remain vibrant. What is your view of the impact of the measures in the Bill on investor confidence? Are there any particular points that will either boost that level of confidence or tend to dampen it down?

Rachel Kelly: One positive, which we have heard from other people today, is that having stability, certainty and predictability around tax is important to occupiers and investors alike. Recognising the benefits of those temporary retail and hospitality reliefs to such businesses, and making them permanent, is a good thing, but Government could go a lot further. At the moment, we have a tax system where the tax rate fluctuates at every valuation, so, depending on the relative change in property values, the tax rate will change at each evaluation, and it goes up by inflation every year. That is unlike any other business tax rate. Therefore, if the Government really want to provide certainty, stability and predictability, which is good for business and good for investors, probably the best thing they could do would be to fix the tax rate so that businesses know, year on year, that really the only thing that will change their tax bill is whether their property has gone up or down in value.

Then I would reiterate my other point: we have a property tax burden in the UK that is more than double the OECD average. We are pretty much at the top in terms of the tax we levy on property in the UK. That, in and of itself, is not very competitive.

Similarly, I would come back to the point around more frequent revaluations. If you have a responsive tax system that reflects those property values more quickly, you are more able to support those businesses or sectors that are struggling more quickly, because their valuations will reflect that more quickly. That is actually better for the Exchequer as well because, as different sectors grow and improve, the Exchequer can generate revenues from those sectors more quickly.

[Jim McMahon]

Q Thank you for coming to give evidence. One thing that we are particularly interested in is ensuring that, within the scope of the Bill—the measures that are being taken, particularly on the multipliers and the reliefs—we understand the impact on the ground in our town and cities, and in the wider economy.

We have heard from other witnesses today about the relationship between business rates and rent levels, and in the end that is a self-correcting system when it works well. It would be useful to get your insight, from your perspective and from the industry’s, about what headroom exists, certainly for institutional landlords. There are a number of us, I think, who reflect on our own local economies and see very high rent levels being quoted for properties that have been empty for many years and have no prospects of getting tenants anytime soon. It would be helpful for us to get a feel of how the system is working as an industry.

Rachel Kelly: Sure. I did listen in to the sessions this morning, so I heard some of the discussion around the relationship between rent and rates. I will try to pick up and respond to a few of those points. There clearly is a relationship between rent and rates but, as one witness said this morning, the evidence is very thin. We conducted some research about a decade ago that showed that there was a relationship between rent and rates, but that relationship was not as strong in certain asset classes and in certain geographies, and it certainly is not as strong in retail.

We know that, for many of our high streets, where you might have 20% vacancy rates, ultimately the occupiers have much more negotiating power in those environments. So, actually, until the significant supply-demand imbalance rectifies on those high streets, we would expect the benefits of a business rate discount to predominantly fall to the occupiers. That is until such time as that supply-demand imbalance—or the vacancy rate—improves, at which point, arguably, the policy might have worked.

To the point around empty properties with artificially high rents, we represent long-term investors in property—institutional investors in property—and a lot of our investors in property are our pension funds, our insurance companies and so on. They want long-term income returns for their pension holders, unit-holders and ultimate investors, and the only rational decision for an investor is to try to seek those rental-income returns.

Perhaps, at the margins, people do keep their properties empty, but it seems wholly irrational. If I was an investor or a pension fund holder, I would not want somebody managing those assets to be keeping properties empty and not generating rental income from them. I do not think it is a pervasive issue; all I can say is that it is not something we see in our members.

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[The Chair]

That is the end of this session.

[David Simmonds]

On a point of order, Dr Huq. I wanted to check the timings for today’s Committee. The invitations sent out to secure Members’ time had this Committee concluding at 4 pm today and tomorrow.

[The Chair]

We are going on until 4.40 pm, although there may be votes. The decisions were made by the Programming Sub-Committee all those days ago.

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[David Simmonds]

I am referring to the diary invitations that were sent out. Separate information is sent to Members’ diaries electronically from what is on the agreed programme. I want to make sure that we confirm the time with Members. I am more than happy to stay here to conclude today’s business, but we need to ensure that Members know what time they need to book out in their diary.

[The Chair]

It sounds like a mismatch in communications. The Clerks will follow up on that.

Examination of Witness

Professor Francis Green gave evidence.

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[The Chair]

Theoretically we have until 4.20 pm, but we are expecting to be interrupted. I call the shadow Minister.

[David Simmonds]

Q Welcome, Professor Green. We would be grateful if you set out your view on the impact the measures in the Bill will have on the education sector, on which you are an expert.

Professor Green: In one word: marginal, because the sums are not enormous. I made an estimate, now a couple of years out of date, which suggested that the amount of tax subsidy was in the order of £142 million across England as a whole. In today’s money that is probably about £150 million, which you will appreciate is not enormous in the big scheme of things. None the less, it is probably a fairly fair policy. I think of my own town of Canterbury, which has quite a few private schools, including the oldest private school in the country, King’s school, which owns a lot of property around the town but pays only one fifth of the local taxes it would otherwise pay. It seems to me that by subsidising them we are mainly subsidising rich people.

[David Simmonds]

Q “Marginal” is a helpful description, because we know that this is a very specific, narrow Bill. Clearly it is part of a bigger context. We know that marginal impacts can be felt more strongly in certain contexts than in others, especially if a business or institution is closer to the edge financially than an equivalent counterpart in another location. King’s in Canterbury may be extremely well padded in terms of its margins, but that will not necessarily be the case everywhere. On the educational impact that may follow from the overall changes, would the measure reduce the impact on provision or the ability of some affected schools to make their facilities available to other schools in a local area? Do you have any view about that?

Professor Green: I do not think it will have a great deal of effect. I offer you a small piece of evidence for that, which is the case of Scotland, which took an equivalent measure to this two and a half years ago. There was much protest beforehand from the sector that this would reduce not only the numbers attending the schools but schools’ ability to finance bursaries, which make a small difference, as you know, to making the schools a little bit less exclusive. The evidence to date, however, shows no noticeable difference whatever. It is perhaps too soon to tell, but we have seen no collapse or catastrophes as was predicted beforehand. That is one small piece of evidence that I offer you. I really do not think that it will make a great deal of difference.

[Jim McMahon]

Q Thank you for taking the time to give evidence and for your direct and matter-of-fact responses, which in a debate that can be emotive is very welcome to an evidence Committee. The Government want to ensure that, in seeing the legislation through, we fully take into account the likely impact on the school system and on the individual pupils and parents, but the fact is that most schools will seek to absorb this, as they would any other operating cost. It would be helpful to understand, if you have made an assessment, the likely displacement of pupils from the independent sector to the state sector as a result of this measure.

Professor Green: I have made no direct assessment of this particular measure, but I have made estimates using econometric studies of the impact of the imposition of VAT—which is not under discussion today, but, in terms of the magnitude of the sums involved, this measure involves much less. The best estimates of the econometric studies suggest that somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000 children might, over the course of time, be switched away from the private sector. If we take that, let us say about one tenth, in terms of the sums, you can see that the figure is relatively small.

I will admit to a certain degree of uncertainty in those estimates. We do not know enough to be precise, but I would be prepared to put my money on it that it will not be a vast number. Probably it could not be tested, because with the small changes that occur, it will be difficult to say, “That is because of this,” rather than because of the many other changes that happen—the circumstances of the particular market.

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[The Chair]

We will move on to our next panel—the 11th panel—and hear oral evidence from Jim McMahon, Minister for Local Government and English Devolution in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. We have until 4.40 pm, unless we are interrupted by the vote, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it. The Minister probably needs no introduction, and there are probably loads of Members who want to ask questions, but we will start with the shadow Minister.

[David Simmonds]

Q Thank you very much indeed, Dr Huq. I know that we are going to have ample opportunity to develop the debate about the relevant clause in the Bill tomorrow, but a lot of the amendments are about whether impact assessments will be carried out or not, and how that would inform our decision making. Could you set out the Department’s approach in general to the use of impact assessments in making determinations—for example, setting the particular level of multipliers—either that the Treasury would consider as an envelope, or that you would expect to see implemented by billing authorities?

Jim McMahon: Thank you. It is important to say that we are determined to create a fairer business rate system that protects the high streets, supports investment and is fit for the 21st century. To deliver that pledge we have outlined these measures, which have been well rehearsed in evidence, and we will explore them further in Committee tomorrow. We have been clear in targeting the interventions, because it is about delivering a manifesto commitment to ensure that we better reflect the changing nature of the high street. In every community, you will hear about local businesses at their wits’ end and feeling as though the Government have not been present, with the online world growing at a rate of knots and the high street getting more and more difficult. We all see that across the board.

There was particular pressure on retail, hospitality and leisure during the covid period, which saw many businesses go to the wall, but that reflects the fact that the support on offer managed to get a number of them through a very difficult period. But they knew that that 75% relief was coming to an end. It was a cliff edge. There was no accounting or provision for it going forward. Everybody in the room must have heard businesses say, “We do not know what is coming and we are nervous about the future.” These measures are about providing that permanent relief—the 40% relief will make a huge difference to high streets, town centres and communities across the country—but also about giving certainty so that businesses can plan ahead.

We are confident that these are the measures that businesses have been asking for, but they have to be self-financing. If we have learned anything, it is that there is no magic money tree. If we give in one part of the economy, it has to come from another part, so where is it best to take from to provide that rebalancing? The fairest way is to target those higher-value properties—1% of the system. We need them to give a bit more, because the high streets and communities need that back support. By and large, that will be warehousing, distribution and the large sheds on the side of motorways, and quite rightly, too, because they are doing well. Their turnover is high, and it can be used to support local businesses on the high street and in town centres.

Every piece of evidence we have heard today, whether from the pub industry, retail or even property investors, has said that the clarity and certainty of investment on business rates is important and welcome. The reach that it has across a range of different sectors will definitely have an impact. Also, the fairness in the system—those with the broadest shoulders, with the highest-value properties over £500,000—is absolutely what is needed. We are very clear about the impact.

Clearly, this is only one part of the process. The actual rates will come later and they will be subject to a separate process, but we are clear that this is the right thing to do and it has been noted in the evidence we have heard today.

[Vikki Slade]

Q Can I ask about occupation? I am thinking about the hon. Member for East Thanet, and I also represent a coastal community. We had a slightly surprised response when we heard that everything will right itself, when we have whole high streets sitting empty. My understanding is that if you have a higher rate for empty properties, it is likely to force people to take a tenant. Do you think the Bill goes far enough on that, or are there more levers you need to pull to make those empty properties work? I know we already have the rental auction and that that is not in scope, but does the Bill go far enough or can the multipliers be levered even more?

Jim McMahon: It will. We need to stay in scope of the Bill, but the Bill does not sit in isolation. This is a wider package of reform and intervention, reflecting the fact that businesses do not operate in isolation; they are part of an ecosystem in many places. Think about the impact of, say, an anchor department store closing, or a bank branch, a post office or an office block. What that does to the footfall in a place has a huge impact, so we need to take a range of measures. We absolutely understand the importance of town centres and high streets not just to the economy but for identity, pride and confidence in the future. I will be careful not to stray too far out of scope here, but communities often feel they lack the power to take control of their high streets. There are cases where a unit has been left vacant and there is a local business that would take it on, but the landlord is not interested, either because they are absent and missing in action, or because they are an investor where the bulk value is more important than the actual rent that can be collected.

That is why things such as the community right to buy, which gives the community the right to have assets, and a community asset register, which gives protection to assets of community value, are important. It is also important to provide more time for communities to self-organise and maybe take over some of these assets. This is an important step that will go some way to achieving that, but in isolation, it would not be enough, which is why the other steps we are taking will make a difference. Where this will make an absolute difference is that once we have dealt with the empty property, the businesses that occupy it onwards can be that bit more viable, because the business rates will be lessened on their operating costs.