David Mundell
Main Page: David Mundell (Conservative - Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale)Department Debates - View all David Mundell's debates with the Scotland Office
(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Pete Wishart
Why was independence excluded in the setting up the Calman commission? Why could we not have included everything? Had we done so, everyone would have taken part and put forward their own proposals to move Scotland forward. But, with their legendary cunning, the oh-so-clever Unionists said, “How do we trap the Nats when it comes to looking at how devolution continues?” They resorted to type, as they did on the constitutional commission. These cunning Unionists sitting around the table said, “What we’ll do is exclude independence from any discussion about the future of Scotland,” and that is what they did.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
May I ask the hon. Gentleman what happened to his party’s cunning plan: the referendum on independence?
Pete Wishart
The right hon. Gentleman asks a fair question, and he will find out the response in May, when a Conservative-led Government attempt to secure and save their seats in Scotland. Then we will have a debate about full powers for the Scottish Parliament and then we will see the result in his constituency and area.
I shall try to get back to what I was discussing. Believe it or not, I was still talking about areas of agreement, although I was moving on to areas of disagreement. As I said, the Bill contains modest ambition for Scotland but it also contains a range of very dangerous tax plans that could significantly hurt the Scottish economy and short-change the Scottish people. As we have seen in today’s exchanges, the tax plans are the most hotly contested, keenly debated and contentious part of these proposals. As I have said to the Secretary of State, by way of figures that he keenly and hotly disputes, this approach would have cost the Scottish people some £8 billion since the establishment of Scottish devolution in 1999. I heard him on the radio saying, “It would only have been £700 million”, but what we are starting with is devolving a series of measures—
Pete Wishart
I want to make some progress.
Airguns blight so many communities in Scotland, but it is perplexing that we shall get devolution on all airguns except the most dangerous ones. I am sure that the less dangerous ones also have an impact on communities, but surely, by definition, the most dangerous ones must cause most of the damage. Similarly, we are going to get devolution on speed limits.
Pete Wishart
I am going to try to make a bit of progress, even though it is the Minister’s good self who wishes to intervene.
Thank goodness we are getting devolution on speed limits, because we have long argued for that. Some of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament have campaigned hard for it. However, we find that we are not going to get control over freight, heavy goods vehicles or anything that is towing a caravan. The most perplexing thing of all—you will like this one, Madam Deputy Speaker—is that the regulation of activities in Antarctica are to be reserved to this House. Just in case anyone was in any doubt, Antarctica is now listed as being reserved to the Westminster Parliament. Colonies of penguins are already pulling down the saltire and hoisting the Union Jack in joyous celebration of that fact. Thank goodness for the Scotland Bill letting us know that fact about Antarctica!
David Mowat
What I propose is that the allocation be done on a needs basis that is fair to the constituents whom I represent as well as to hers.
David Mundell
I very much respect what my hon. Friend says. He took part in a Westminster Hall debate on the issue, and I am sure the Chancellor and other colleagues are listening to him. We need to be clear, though, about whether he is arguing for a needs-based assessment across the whole UK. The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) drew attention to the fact that there are significant differentials within England. The difference between the highest and lowest per capita public spending in England is £2,537, which is much greater than the difference between the Scottish and English average. We need to be clear about whether my hon. Friend and those who make the same argument want a change in spending within England, or just between the constituent parts of the UK.
David Mowat
The difference that we are really talking about today is the one between the constituent parts of the UK, but I have no difficulty with also applying that to the constituent parts of England. As I said, a needs-based formula is fair.
If my constituency of Warrington South, which has areas of great deprivation and some better-off areas, were in Scotland, the average constituent would receive £900 more. That is not fair—I get a considerable postbag about it. Today’s debate is not on the Barnett formula, but unless we address the matter at some point, it will become a tension in the Union from the other direction. We need to be cognisant of that, and we need to be careful.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
It is a genuine pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), who said a number of things with which I agree entirely. Twice she said that this should not be a dry, academic exercise, the first time stating that it was not about the powers, but the policies that they are used for.
On the Bill’s proposals for enhanced financial powers, with which we agree, I wish to set out in a little detail precisely what we would do with them and why we back them. I would also like to clear up a slight misunderstanding: we will absolutely not stand in the way of the Bill. The SNP will never stand in the way of additional powers coming to Scotland. The reason for the reasoned amendment, and for the amendments that we will table in Committee and beyond, is our desire to strengthen the Bill by ironing out some of the flaws and making it better. That is what we should all be doing. Notwithstanding the fact that we are only 100 days away from the Scottish election, at heart we all want the Bill to be as good as it can be.
David Mundell
I am afraid that I do not understand the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, because his so-called reasoned amendment suggests that the Bill is “unacceptable”. The logic of his argument is that if he does not succeed in making the amendment—and he must accept that he is unlikely to do so—he will be unable to support the Bill in an unamended form.
Stewart Hosie
It is rather obvious that we are seeking to make the Bill better. In its current form it will not work, and I will explain why in a moment. I do not believe that it will meet even the honourable objectives that the Government have set out.
David Mundell
I think that the House deserves some clarification from the hon. Gentleman. If the amendment that he is promoting does not prevail and the Bill progresses in essentially the same form, perhaps with only some minor amendments, is he saying that his party will not accept it?
Stewart Hosie
I now see what the Minister is asking. I have every confidence that, when we coalesce in Committee, the common sense of Members from all parties will lead to a number of successful amendments that will improve the Bill, perhaps by addressing the weaknesses in the financial powers, for example, to which the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun alluded. We will wait until the subsequent stages before deciding on the Bill, which might have been changed substantially by then.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I begin by thanking all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions to the debate. I shall try to deal with the detail raised in individual contributions as time allows.
Today’s debate is a testament to the significance of the Scotland Bill for the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom. Although the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 was quite rightly greeted with much fanfare—I was pleased to play my part in that day, along with the hon. Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran)—there was, as has been said, a recognition at that time of the view, which was personified by the then First Minister, Donald Dewar, that devolution was a process rather than an event.
Equally, it must be recognised that this Bill is part of a process within that process of devolution. It is part of the Calman process. The Calman process is one that I have been involved in from the very beginning. It began back in 2007, when I joined the then Scottish Secretary, now Lord Browne of Ladyton and the Government deputy Chief Whip, and the three parties’ leaders at Holyrood, Wendy Alexander, Annabel Goldie and Nicol Stephen—I pay tribute to them, as did the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain)—in seeking to establish an independent review of Scottish devolution, 10 years on. I want to put on record the Government’s thanks not just to them, but to the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) and all those who worked with him, to Iain Gray MSP and Tavish Scott MSP, who joined us over subsequent months in the cross-party steering group to lay the groundwork on how to implement the recommendations that emerged from the review.
It gives me great personal satisfaction to be part of a new coalition Government who are seeing Calman through. I know that the Opposition remain behind the process, too, and I was pleased to learn that on his visit to the Scottish Parliament on 30 June last year, the current Labour leader said that
“we also recognise the need for Scotland to have an ability to vary its tax rates on the basis of the Calman commission proposals.”
I am glad there is at least one thing on the blank sheet of paper.
I welcome the considered remarks of the hon. Members for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex). It was clear not just from their remarks but from many Back-Bench contributions from both sides of the House that this Bill will indeed receive due scrutiny in this House. Any suggestion to the contrary would be quite wrong.
Let me pick up on one or two of the points about taxation that the hon. Member for Glasgow North raised. I emphasise particularly that the Government, the Scottish Government and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs are working together through the high-level implementation group and other forums to ensure that the tax system works in a way that minimises administration for business and makes it is as easy as possible for Scottish taxpayers to operate.
Our clear view is that the system that allows people resident in Scotland for tax purposes to have a distinct Scottish tax code will deal with many of the issues that have been reported. For example, the notion that everyone in Scotland will be required to fill in an income tax return when they do not do so currently is without foundation. I am sure that we will be able to return to these issues when we get into detailed examination of the Bill and debate the precise definition of “a Scottish taxpayer”. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen and, indeed, my hon. Friends, will come forward with the many and varied occupations that could provide a basis for challenging the definition of being resident in Scotland. I was not expecting to hear a reference to stage hypnotists today, but this shows the variety of issues in respect of which we can debate whether they should be devolved or not.
David Mundell
Of course, Antarctica is another issue—it became of interest to the Scottish National party only when it discovered that it might no longer be devolved. As became clear in the debate, SNP policy on it is not exactly clear.
The Calman process provides a great example of different political parties working together in the national interest, and I am sure that Opposition Members will in due course come to see the coalition Government in a similar light. If the Bill benefits from being cross-party, it also benefits from being cross-Parliament. I have no doubt that the Bill, and support for it, will be enhanced through being tested by the unique tricameral scrutiny to which it is subject—in this House, in the other place and in the Scottish Parliament.
I was extremely disappointed by the way in which Scottish National party Members derided the Scottish Parliament process of scrutiny, about which the hon. Member for Glasgow East spoke eloquently, and which is accepted as one of the great assets of the Scottish Parliament. As ever with the Scottish National party, however, the issue is not the level of scrutiny but whether the scrutineers agree with it.
Stewart Hosie
The Minister is wrong: there was no criticism of the process of Scottish Parliament committee scrutiny, which is a model, an exemplar, a fantastic system. The difficulty was the shameful way in which certain witnesses and potential witnesses were treated. I am happy to defend them against the committee involved, which treated some of them appallingly.
David Mundell
Anybody who reads the transcripts will realise that it was the way in which the evidence was given, and its quality, that was the issue in the sessions concerned. I look forward to the evidence of Scotland’s Finance Secretary when he is recalled to that committee. Given some of the comments of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), we will not take too many lessons from his party on respect within the context of a debate.
The commission’s initial task was to review
“the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 in the light of experience and to recommend any changes to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Scottish Parliament to serve the people of Scotland better, that would improve the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament and that would continue to secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.”
As we have heard today, there is an overwhelming consensus in the House and in Scotland that the Bill lives up to that vision. It builds on the success of the first 11 years of the Scottish Parliament, and addresses Holyrood’s one critical flaw: the lack of revenue-raising power to match its spending power.
On the amendment, I defer to the House and the Speaker, who selected it, but I am not sure how to respond. It clearly states that the Bill, in its present form, is unacceptable, yet when Scottish National party Members are asked whether they support the Bill, and whether they will support it if it emerges from the parliamentary process in broadly the same terms, they are unable to give an answer. I am afraid that the amendment strikes me as no more than a stunt—an opportunity to say, “We opposed it,” while agreeing with it. It is absolutely ludicrous that a party, which has some worthy people in it—the worthiness of the views of many members of the SNP has been acknowledged—should come to the House and say, when additional powers for the Scottish Parliament are proposed, “No, we don’t want them. Because we can’t have our own way, we’re not going to support the Bill.”
Stewart Hosie
The Minister has not listened to the debate. We made it extremely clear that we will not stand in the way of any powers being devolved to Scotland. As the Bill stands, however, it has huge flaws and needs to be improved. That is a rather sensible thing to say, one would have thought, on Second Reading.
David Mundell
In that regard, the hon. Gentleman’s comments are as incoherent as his comments in relation to the financial provisions. The SNP stands against the Bill, and will divide the House on the basis that the Bill is unacceptable. If the motion is carried, that, as Mr Deputy Speaker has indicated, would be the basis on which the Bill went forward. The position set out by the SNP is incoherent not just financially but constitutionally.
Let me now deal with some other, more sensible contributions. We heard from a number of old hands—old in terms of the devolution process, although not, of course, in terms of years. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who described her experience of the scrutiny of the original Scotland Act. We also heard from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who is no longer in the Chamber, but who is a great supporter of devolution whenever the opportunity arises.
The right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), who has campaigned on these issues for a long time and with some success, made a thoughtful speech. I can inform him that the United Kingdom Government as a whole will review charity law, and that, as we have made clear in the Command Paper, we felt that it would be better to enact the spirit of the Calman recommendations once that review had been completed in the rest of the UK.
A number of Members raised the question of changes in the income tax threshold. The Command Paper makes it clear that the Government would proceed on the basis of no detriment, and that any such changes would be accommodated in the block grant settlement.
I congratulate the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) on the fact that she is celebrating her birthday, although I am slightly concerned that she should enjoy doing so in combat with some members of the SNP. During the course of the debate, I realised that there was an obvious gift for her: the book by my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). As he revealed that he had a large number of copies, not only the hon. Lady but most of her constituents would be able to receive one.
My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) made some important points about cross-border relations. As both the Secretary of State and I are well aware, people living in the border regions have long been able to cope with the differences on either side of the border. For instance, the well-established difference in the licensing laws that used to prevail did not cause any particular difficulties. The existing devolution settlement does not cause any difficulties, and the revised settlement will not cause any either.
The hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) made the important point that strengthening devolution does not undermine the United Kingdom, but strengthens it. As well as giving us a précis of his book, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South raised significant points about, for instance, pension plan payments. I can reassure him that the high-level implementation group involving HMRC is examining those issues at this moment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South on the subject of the Barnett formula, and was subsequently involved in a discussion of the subject. I accept that concern has been expressed about the system of devolution funding, but tackling the deficit is the Government’s top priority, and any changes would await stabilisation of the public finances. The current funding arrangements—in essence, the Barnett formula—are set out in an administrative agreement rather than in statute, but the financing mechanism in the Bill would apply equally well to another way of calculating the block grant. The Bill does not fix the Barnett formula in stone for the future. It neither rules in nor rules out reform of the Barnett formula in the future; indeed, it is designed to be flexible in relation to alternative approaches to funding.
The right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), a seasoned campaigner on these issues, made a number of important points. I can reassure her that the Government are not devolving taxation in relation to savings and unearned income, so most of the things about which she expressed concern will not come to pass. The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson), who is no longer in his place, has always been a staunch supporter of the nuclear industry, and he is to be commended for that. However, he will be aware that, after due consideration, the Calman commission concluded that there should be no change to the arrangements for new nuclear power stations in Scotland.
The hon. Member for Glasgow North East made an interesting point about a Scottish office for budget responsibility, and I look forward to hearing more about that in the next stage of the debate. As I have said on previous occasions, I very much welcome the hon. Members for Glasgow East and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun to this House, because they bring a great depth of experience of the Scottish Parliament and of being in government in Scotland—in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, of course. I reassure the hon. Member for Glasgow East, in her absence, that the Government are committed to the Bill’s proposals on airguns and that I listened to the powerful case she made in that regard. Finally, I did welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). However, although she is one of the younger Members of this House, it appeared that she was somewhat stuck in the 1980s.
My final remarks are for those people who have opposed this process, who have sat on the sidelines every time they have had an opportunity to contribute to this process and who are only able to come forward at the last minute with carping complaints. What I say to them is—
David Mundell
I have no time to give way.
I ask those people to reflect, in the few minutes left, on the fact that if they support this process and if their party supports more powers for the Scottish Parliament, they should not press their amendment to a Division. Interestingly, we heard a lot of quotes about academics who support the Calman process but, as Scottish Members will have noted, certain academics were very absent from today’s debate.
I want to finish on a specific financial point. It is absolutely essential that we scotch the idea of an £8 billion deflationary bias that been mentioned repeatedly but has no factual basis. There is no deflationary bias about the financing mechanism that is at the heart of the Scotland Bill. The Scottish Government’s assertions are based on a period when public spending rose faster than tax receipts—the very activity that resulted in record levels of borrowing and debt. That is unsustainable, and it is simply incorrect to infer that the result from that period equates to a deflationary bias. If implemented now, the means of financing would in fact benefit Scotland during the fiscal consolidation. I urge hon. Members to support the Bill.
Question put, That the amendment be made.