Small Businesses: Tax Reporting

David Morris Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[George Kerevan]

I am happy to reinforce the hon. Gentleman’s point. Indeed, various Treasury papers suggest that the shift towards a paperless tax system will increase receipts by about £600 million. That is not a bad thing, and no one would oppose it if it happened, but the issue is that the Minister and HMRC are rushing to judgment in introducing the proposed system. They think that moves to put it in place will be so advanced by 2020 that they will be able to start instructing small businesses to update quarterly.

Buried in the small print of last November’s Treasury press notice is a suggestion as to one of the advantages that will come from the proposal:

“HMRC expects the number of calls”

to its various call centres

“to reduce from 38 million in 2015-16”

to a mere 15 million by 2020. Magically, as a result of the electronic vision being presented to us, about 23 million phone calls will no longer be made to HMRC. Does anyone here, the Minister included, actually believe those numbers?

In the run-up to introducing a new system, the likelihood is that things will go wrong. If we are lucky, we might make something like the proposed saving in calls 10 years from now, but I doubt that that will happen between now and 2020. I have great respect for the Minister, but I would like to hear him swear on his heart that he actually thinks we will deliver 23 million fewer calls.

[David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)]

From what I can gather, the whole point of having a trial period from 2018 is to iron out that anomaly in the system. Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that it is welcome that we are using small and medium-sized enterprises and self-employed people as a test bed, rather than putting through some sort of virtual reality programme?

[George Kerevan]

I could not agree more. At the risk of repeating myself, I stress that the Scottish National party—I think this goes for all parties—agrees that this is the road to take and that we need to consult, but there is a question over the speed at which this is being done. I understand why the Treasury and HMRC have to sell things and to make promises about what they can deliver but, as the hon. Member for Hertsmere said, experience proves that the introduction of major IT systems rarely works out, particularly when they are on this scale. We are talking about getting 50 million taxpayers and small businesses on this system between now and 2020, but that will not happen.

The Government need to slow down and consult more. The Minister has to stop putting in place arbitrary timetables for when the consultation will work itself out. In particular, he has to stop telling us that he can implement the system in 2020 and impose quarterly returns, which is the thing that is worrying small businesses. Instead, he should concentrate on bringing the consultation to a point where everyone is on board, and then the system will come into play.

I want to reinforce an important point that other Members have made in interventions: we do not have full digital coverage in this country. When Culture, Media and Sport Ministers get up in the main Chamber and talk about getting to nearly 100% coverage, what is the target date? It is 2020, but that may slip. If the new system needs 100% broadband coverage, it makes much more sense to wait until that coverage is in place before switching over the entire British tax system, including the system on which small businesses depend, to a new one. That is another argument for delaying full implementation until 2025 or 2030.

I worry that there is a hidden agenda. Clearly, the Government are attempting to make cost savings. The very Treasury press statement that introduced the idea of moving quickly to a new electronic tax system by 2020 told us that HMRC seeks to make

“£717 million of sustainable resource savings”

by 2020. The system is being put in place at the same time that HMRC is being expected to make major cuts. Again, that does not all stack up.

My real point to the Minister is that no one opposes the introduction of this system, but clearly there has been a catastrophic failure in how the Government have presented it to small businesses. We hear constantly from Ministers that they are pro-small business, so now is the time for them to honour those words. If they simply consult more, delay the introduction of the new system until they are sure that they have everyone on board and set aside the requirement for quarterly reporting until they are sure that the system is actually working, they will achieve success.

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[David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)]

May I declare an interest and refer hon. Members to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests? I am the Government’s self-employment ambassador and as such it is my task to engage with people in the self-employment sector to find out exactly what concerns them and exactly what they would like from the Government on all matters of self-employment.

I was a small businessman for the better part of 30 years before entering Parliament. I know that I do not look old enough but, believe you me, I spent every year building my business up, just as the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) outlined. It was a steep learning curve of trepidation and fear most of the time, but when one gets a hand on the roller coaster, one begins to make a success of it.

It has just been made clear that this is not going to be a new form of taxation every quarter, but the self-employed sector is frightened that it could become the new VAT. The sector could be given a bill over a period of, perhaps, 10 years from the date when the new policy comes in and becomes law, and HMRC could mutate that to become a collective every quarter. Rightly, the self-employment sector is very worried that that might happen with this policy. From my research and what I have just been given from the Treasury, I am sure that will not happen, and I am sure the Minister can assure me of that at the end of the debate.

The sector is concerned that the proposal could be a predictor of turnover. As I outlined, when I was self-employed, I worked year on year, until I started to be comfortable. Some years were good and some were extraordinarily bad. As the hon. Member for Hove eloquently said, this is not a matter of one size fits all. Self-employment differs across the sphere. Some business may be seasonal, a classic example being a man who grows Christmas trees. He should have a good December, but during the rest of the year he will have to have other self-employment.

We do not want online registration to become a yardstick with which to beat the self-employed. I know from my experience of being self-employed that turnover can fluctuate. We have just been through a deep depression and we have seen its effects on small businesses as well as large businesses. We do not want HMRC to start saying that business X did better in quarter one four years ago than it is doing now. Self-employment does not work that way. Businesses evolve and sometimes they become smaller and sometimes they enlarge. One size does not fit all.

Not all self-employed people are computer-savvy. Some 20% are not online, especially in rural areas. That may include the farming community and its business models, up to 40% of whom are not computer literate and cannot get their heads around online formulations. The hon. Member for Hove, who spoke eloquently and forcefully, said we do not want it to become more complicated for the self-employed to get in touch with HMRC to sort out their problems.

It is welcome that, to introduce the policy by 2020, a voluntary scheme will be looked at. That would be pivotal in the success of the policy. What should also be looked at is wider consultation across the whole self-employment sector. The Federation of Small Businesses should be consulted at length, as should British Chambers of Commerce, the Association of Independent Professionals and the Self-Employed and a whole host of other self-employment bodies with a firm stakehold in the self-employment sector and society.

Some business anomalies come and go and HMRC should recognise that and help. I referred to the chap who grows Christmas trees once a year. I was in the retail and service industry, which fluctuates between holiday periods and between periods when there is more spending on the high street and recessions. That should not be used as a sort of dashboard for small businesses in particular towns or regions or even across the country because they vary from someone running an IT business on the internet and selling small goods all the way to a big business on the verge of going multinational. Such businesses cannot be predicted.

HMRC has estimated

“that £6.5 billion in tax goes unpaid every year because of mistakes made when filing tax returns.”

We do not want that to become £12 billion, which may be a stretch of the imagination, but when any new system comes in, there are new challenges. We must make sure we get this right from the start. We do not want the self-employment sector to feel that Big Brother is on to them with a turnover predictor that becomes the new form of VAT. I do not think that will happen, but it must be said. Will the policy eventually lead to quarterly payments? From what I have seen from the Treasury, I do not think it will and I am sure the Minister will reassure us on that.

What must also be taken into account is that cash flow can be very unpredictable and many businesses are paid on a 90-day cycle, which is one quarter. That could skew and distort the figure that comes across a business’s dashboard with HMRC if it goes online.

To sum up, I hope this will not become the new VAT. I was a self-employed businessman for the better part of 30 years and I have seen all sorts of changes over that period from successive Governments of all political parties that had an effect on the way my business and others in my area ran. HMRC should set up special classes. The change should not be something that is just learned online. There should be a dedicated centre where self-employed people can be told what to do, so that they are not pressured into becoming semi-accountants, instead of earning money and being an entrepreneur and creative.

One part of the “Making tax digital” myth-buster that concerns me is where it says that people

“who genuinely can’t use digital tools…will be offered alternatives, like nominating someone else to update their information for them, or giving information by phone.”

In plain English, that reads to me like using an accountant. That should be taken into due consideration with these classes to ensure that people do not spend more and more of their time and money on employing more accountants to deal with quarterly returns.

It must also be asked what the penalties are if a quarterly return is not filed on time. Again, that concerns the self-employed sector. Those people want to know what the new system will look like, what it will involve and how, in reality, it will affect their business. We must get this right. We cannot let the estimated £6.5 billion of losses get any larger. It is good that the Government are grasping this nettle. It is a fact, whether we like it or not—everyone in this Chamber knows—that this kind of taxation filing will be done online eventually, because that is the way things are going. It is inevitable; that is the way of life. We all, from whichever side of the political divide, accept that. However, we must ensure that we do not place extra burdens on businesses and that they remain productive and creative, as we have one of the largest sectors for self-employment not in Europe, but in the world.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

I commend all the speeches that we have heard so far, from across the party political divide, but particularly that from my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), who touched on the spirit of entrepreneurialism that many hon. Members speaking in the debate care about and has motivated them to take part. I think that it was the hon. Member for East Lothian (George Kerevan) who correctly said or implied that no one should turn their face against employing new technology to simplify or streamline what might otherwise be bureaucratic, wasteful paper-based systems. I do not think that that is really at the heart of the debate. I am less concerned about the shift from paper to digital than I am about the potentially even more seismic change from annual to quarterly reporting, updates, summaries, returns—call them what you will, there is definitely something that a small business will have to produce. In fact, I was wondering what the difference is between a return, a summary and an update. Perhaps the Minister was updated at the last general election rather than returned. I do not know, but it is on that specific point that we will want some answers.

My apologies, by the way, Mr Davies, if I am not able to remain in the Chamber until the end of the debate. I should also say that possibly we should all declare an interest—I point to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests—as individuals, because this proposal will not just affect businesses. In the Treasury’s update in the autumn statement and spending review, it was clear that the proposal will take in very many businesses and self-employed people, down to levels well below the VAT thresholds and others. I do not think, even though there are 110,000 signatures on this e-petition, that most people have quite realised the ramifications that the proposal could have for them as individuals submitting an individual tax return, as well as for those businesses that are affected.

This is not just about the move to doing things online; it is very much about the process of lodging the tax return or even update, because that is the thing that many people find particularly laborious. This is not about how things are written down; the issue is the process that takes up so much time and soaks up so much effort when a company is taking stock of the income that has been generated gross, of the expenditure that has gone out and of any gains or losses that have been incurred. When the Government say that in four years’ time there will be “at least quarterly” requirements to file “summaries” with HMRC, the Minister should not be too surprised if people hear that and feel that there will be at least a quadrupling of the administrative effort and exertions and the sweat and tears that sometimes go into that process.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hove has articulated sufficiently the broad points about why we should support SMEs; I have just a few specific questions about the Government’s proposals so far. Will the option of an annual tax return be abolished? Will companies still be able to make the return annually? Will this quarterly—or perhaps more frequently—arrangement be supplementing that? What exactly is proposed? The Minister says “at least quarterly”. Will he elaborate on how often he means by that?

Many small businesses and individuals will liaise with their accountants annually. They will collect together all the receipts or invoices and hand them over en bloc to their accountant, who will of course help with the recording of income, business expenses and so on. The accountant will examine those, perhaps audit them and agree a verified and checked final figure; and that is the point at which information is dispatched to HMRC. I want to drill down into whether the Minister is now saying that businesses and individuals will in effect be asked to submit raw, unaudited, almost “real-time” income and expenditure data directly to HMRC—disintermediated, if I can use that term, by taking the accountant out of the picture?

Will the Minister say a little more about where the accountancy and audit stage will fit into this process? That is a crucial thing for many businesses. They want to ensure that they are submitting information about their business activities in full, so that it is accurate. They will be anxious about what will happen if they make mistakes in those data, because they are going in on a real-time or near-real-time basis. They will be anxious about how that could ever be disentangled should administrative mistakes be made. Will not businesses now feel that they ought to incur even more accountancy costs, perhaps four times a year instead of annually, just to be on the safe side? The Minister can say, “There’s no need to do this. Just let us have access to your books and we’ll press send on Sage,” or whatever software the Minister envisages. However, I think that many businesses will want to take a precautionary approach. I can understand why they would do that, so will the Minister elaborate on that point?

What happens to the actual payment of tax owed? When will that be forthcoming? I think that the hon. Member for South Ribble (Seema Kennedy) touched on this point. Will an annual sum still be required, or are we in effect moving to some sort of pay-as-you-earn for small businesses? I have often found it a bit of an anomaly that many people who are employed have the tax deducted—dripping out as monthly payments—at source, but others have the option of making their tax payment sometimes 18 months further down the line. There is no particular incentive in that respect. There was, when interest rates were higher, the opportunity for people to forestall the payment of their tax and perhaps gain the benefit of holding on to that cash before parting with it and giving it to the Treasury. In this case, if we are moving to a sort of PAYE for small firms, it would be better if the Minister was honest and straightforward about it, because that would be a big change in the way business accounting works.

The hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) made the point about seasonal businesses. He mentioned Christmas tree growers. There are many seasonal companies, which will do well in the summer months and perhaps less well in the winter or vice versa. Examples include window cleaners, sports coaches and people involved in holiday lettings. Of course, quarterly reporting arrangements will therefore be quite volatile over an annual period. Taking snapshots at a particular point in time will not necessarily give the final, smoothed, annual, true report of what the business may or may not owe in tax terms. There is a real question about peaks and troughs across the year and how that can be taken into account in a quarterly reporting arrangement.

[David Morris]

One thing that concerns me from what the hon. Gentleman is saying is that, if quarters are compared to relative years and HMRC thinks that something is amiss, it could enforce an investigation. Would the powers of investigation for HMRC be doubled overnight because it would have more of a dashboard—for want of a better word—on the computer to look between years and sectors and also types of businesses?

[Chris Leslie]

Many hon. Members will have filled in all sorts of electronic forms when purchasing goods and services. I can envisage an HMRC drop-down menu saying, “Pick the type of business that you are.” My concern is that not all businesses fit neatly into the categorisations provided by the computer. Whether the computer says yes or the computer says no, that does not always tally with the realities of those businesses’ needs. There is some virtue in the annual tax return arrangement, because it provides a smoother, more strategic overview of the tax liabilities of a business that is complex, even if it is small or micro.

There are bigger concerns about the design of the Minister’s proposal. For me, it is a bit of a distraction to get bogged down in the question of online versus paper. The core question is what is involved in moving to the quarterly summary and update arrangement. There are administrative issues, too, which people will worry about. HMRC has not exactly covered itself in glory in recent years in terms of customer responsiveness. I think 18 million phone calls went unanswered last year, and only 50% were picked up in the first half of 2015. Given that track record, I do not think the Minister should be surprised if people are a little bit wary about another big transformation coming, when they may want some help and support.

The Public Accounts Committee looked into HMRC customer responsiveness, and it was not exactly satisfied with some of the answers that it got. We need full assurance about HMRC’s competence on that matter. Principally, we need assurance about whether the Government are carefully thinking through this significant change, which could affect not only businesses and the self-employed, but many other individuals—perhaps tens of millions. The debate has been a worthwhile opportunity to pause and urge the Minister to think more carefully about the proposal.

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[Sammy Wilson]

That is exactly the kind of question that any reasonable business would want answered when deciding whether the change is good or bad. It is easy to hide everything behind a term such as “quarterly, digitally-gathered business records” but the detail, as the hon. Lady says, is significant for businesses.

If the information is to be looked at in detail, that will affect how businesses go about collecting and verifying it. Most businesses do not want to make mistakes. They are not all treated—unfortunately, Minister—like the Googles of this world. Many businesses fear HMRC—they fear the taxman. They are afraid of making a mistake and of that being interpreted as them somehow trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes. Inevitably, instead of one visit to the accountant or auditor, there will be three or four visits. I do not think that this is just speculation, because one only has to look at what happened when VAT filing started. That was sold on the same kind of basis, because we were told, “You just fill in all the stuff,” but that was not what happened. People started going to accountants to get them to verify that they were sending in the proper information.

Will more queries be raised with businesses and will more time be tied up dealing with those queries? As businesses see the quarterly returns as something of great significance that have an impact on the tax they pay and how that might be scrutinised, will they face more compliance costs due to their asking professionals to do their returns? Alternatively, as some Members have described it, is it simply that they will have all the information on one spreadsheet, and that they can click a button to send it to HMRC, with that being the end of it? I doubt very much that that is how businesses will regard this, and HMRC has already accepted that there will be set-up and hardware costs.

[David Morris]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the best way to sort out such hardware and software costs will probably be to look at examples elsewhere? The Estonian Government, for instance, do not use paper at all; everything is done online. We have imported the car tax system from Estonia, and perhaps it would be good to look at how other countries manage similar taxation programmes.

[Mr David Hanson in the Chair]

[Sammy Wilson]

If we have long enough consultation and lead-in periods, there will be opportunities to find out where similar changes have been made and what lessons can be learned from them. I hope that that elementary step is taken so that we iron out some of those things. If the software is free, it does not mean that there will be no disruption to businesses because they will have to adapt to a universal form of data collection, which might be different from what they use at present. Of course, that requires training and changes to how things are done.

Many people in my constituency who have set up small businesses or become self-employed did so because they are good plumbers, carpenters, builders, mechanics or whatever, but they are not into the administrative stuff. Even if there is help and this standard software is provided free of charge, they will pay somebody to carry out the process, and if they have to pay that person four times a year, it will add to their costs.

As several hon. Members have said, while we talk about all this information being supplied online, that is not an option for many businesses throughout the United Kingdom. A report that was published on Friday by a group of hon. Members stated that it was accepted that the internet programme has not been rolled out as well as the Government had hoped. The report made substantial recommendations and asked whether we could implement them without breaking up BT’s monopoly.

One thing we know is that HMRC has accepted that 19% of businesses have no digital contact, and that 42% need assistance, so a substantial number of businesses will not find the transition easy. Connections in this part of the United Kingdom are much better than those in Scotland, Northern Ireland or other areas of England and Wales where the population is perhaps more dispersed, so the burden of not being able to comply with digital returns will be felt much more heavily in some constituencies than others, and that needs to be taken into consideration. I do not want to make a point that others have made, but if the system needs to involve other ways for people to contact HMRC, we already know that there will be difficulties. I do not want to go through all the statistics about phone calls not being answered—

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[Sammy Wilson]

I have three points to make in conclusion. First, although more than 100,000 people have signed the petition, I believe, despite what the Government have said, that that is probably an indication that many businesses are not even aware of the changes. If the policy announcement has not percolated down to those who will be affected, how can we be sure that they will be fully aware of the substantive changes to come until they are hit by them? There is a lesson to be learned about just how effective the announcement and the consultation have been. Secondly, although the Government argue that they want to reduce the regulatory burden on businesses, I cannot for the life of me, for the reasons I have given, understand how the approach will reduce that regulatory burden.

My third point is about political perception, but it is important, and I would have thought that the Minister’s party would have been particularly concerned about this. There is increasing cynicism that somehow big business gets away with things that small business does not. The measure will apply to small businesses but not to large ones, yet all the time the headline news is about how the latter—whether it is the Googles or the Starbucks —seem to walk away from their tax responsibilities. People will find it difficult to understand why there should be a greater onus on small businesses to declare their earnings and business details when some of the larger ones can get away without paying tax for 10 years and then get a slap on the wrist. As we discussed earlier in the main Chamber, they seem to get away with paying very little.

[David Morris]

I would like the hon. Gentleman to try to look at the matter this way: self-employment is the largest growing sector in the country, and that has to be taken into account when considering how taxation should be simplified. As my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) said, the sector is the powerhouse—the engine room—of our economy. I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees that two different styles and sorts of businesses are being discussed in parallel. Our earlier proceedings in the Chamber were about the Googles of this world, and this debate is about the self-employed and small and up-to-medium-sized enterprises.