Firearms Controls

Damian Green Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. I want to add my voice to the congratulations given to the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), particularly on the measured tone in which he introduced the debate. I agree with his remarks about the appropriate way to discuss the matter, and I am happy to say that that approach was echoed throughout the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) made a speech that was knowledgeable and thoughtful, as were the interventions from both sides of the House.

The hon. Member for Easington has inevitably been concerned about the issue in question since the tragic events in his constituency on New Year’s day last year. Our thoughts remain with the family and friends of the three victims, Susan McGoldrick, Alison Turnbull and Tanya Turnbull, whose lives were so terribly cut short by the incomprehensible acts of Michael Atherton.

I have listened carefully to the speeches. It is now a year since the hon. Member for Easington obtained a similar debate on firearms control, and apart from answering the specific points that have been raised I should like to update the House on some of the work that has been done since then. The Government have responded to the terrible act in question, and there have been many changes. One of the things that unites everyone in the debate is agreement that the focus of the work must be on ensuring that gun controls continue to be robust and effective, so as to minimise the risk of harm to members of the public.

As has been mentioned several times, since the debate last October the Independent Police Complaints Commission has issued its report into the Atherton case. We are considering the recommendations and we shall respond in the autumn. In doing so I shall, of course, take into account the points that have been made about the report in today’s debate. As the hon. Member for Easington said, I have met Bobby Turnbull, a close relative of the victims, more than once, and I will take his views carefully into account.

In June this year, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary responded to a letter from Mr Andrew Tweddle, the Durham coroner, who wrote to draw attention to a number of issues related to the Atherton case. Mr Tweddle expressed the view that there needed to be a root-and-branch review of firearms licensing. I absolutely understand why he made that recommendation, but I do not agree with him. Many of the issues raised by the coroner centred on the weaknesses in the handling of Atherton’s case by the local police force. That has been the subject of much comment today as well.

Durham constabulary has, of course, subsequently reviewed and strengthened its processes and shared the development of that work directly with the Turnbull family. Again, I take the point made by a number of hon. Members that we need consistency of application throughout the country and a degree of competence and common sense in applying the laws throughout the country. I know that other police forces will take that into account as well.

[Jim Shannon]

On the point about consistency, I mentioned in an intervention on the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) the data that some police forces in England make available to other organisations—for example, the RSPCA. That information is confidential. It is specific to firearms, where they are held, but also to the individuals. Does the Minister intend to ensure that confidential information such as that is not disclosed to other organisations without knowledge of what is going to happen, and that whatever happens happens consistently across the whole of England and Wales?

[Damian Green]

I am as concerned as the hon. Gentleman that the use of confidential data should be controlled so that it is serving a specific purpose, proportionate and done in an appropriate way. Indeed, the issue that he has brought up has been brought to my attention by other hon. Members, so I am very aware of it.

However, I think that the practical problems that the coroner revealed are different from there being issues with the licensing process at national level. I am satisfied that the existing test in law for the grant or renewal of a firearm or shotgun certificate remains appropriate, but there are indeed issues about how the current law is applied in individual cases, which I will come to shortly.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I thank the Minister for the considered way in which he is responding to various points made in the debate by me and other hon. Members, but we cannot overlook the fact that the coroner discovered, having questioned the two police officers who were the licensing officers in Durham, that not only were they not familiar with the guidance—they could not quote the various sections—but they claimed that they had not seen it, had not referred to it, as a working document.

I am not suggesting that every force was the same, but surely a simple solution is to ensure that there is adequate training of licensing officers, not just in Durham—I might say that that has been properly addressed now by the new police and crime commissioner—but throughout the country. I know that there will be a cost to that.

[Damian Green]

I agree with the point; I shall come to the training point in a moment, if the hon. Gentleman will bear with me.

Overall, the low rates of gun crime in this country support the view that the legislation is robust. Figures from the Office for National Statistics, which my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds cited, show that firearms offences account for fewer than 0.2% of all recorded offences. Provisional figures show that in the 12 months to March 2013, there was a 15% fall in firearms offences, and the volume of firearms offences has more than halved—it is down by 54%—since its peak in 2005-06.

Nevertheless, I, like everyone else, am deeply concerned by the fact that Atherton had been permitted to continue to possess guns despite a history of domestic violence that was known to the police. I want to make it very clear that, although each case must be assessed on its merits, evidence of domestic violence and abuse will generally indicate that a person should not be licensed to possess a gun. To that end, on 31 July we published new firearms guidance on domestic violence as a specific issue. It sets out how the police should handle firearms applications where it may be a factor.

It has been proposed that it should be mandatory that the partners of firearm applicants are directly involved in the process and that they should be interviewed to establish whether they support the application. We sought views on that proposal, including those of domestic violence organisations, and our collective conclusion is that we should not adopt that approach. We are concerned that it could put victims of domestic violence at greater risk, particularly if an application is subsequently refused; or they may feel unable to speak openly for fear of reprisals.

My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) said that he had been regarded as instrumental in preventing a licence from being granted and he was subsequently blamed for that. Imagine how much more difficult it would be for a potential or actual victim of domestic violence to be put in that position. We think that it is better to have a system in which the police can interview widely if the evidence suggests that that is merited. It can include interviews with partners or ex-partners. In that way, their views can still be sought, but without making them a specific and identified component of the decision-making process.

The firearms guidance on domestic violence provides a framework for the police in handling cases sensitively and linking up with domestic violence teams and other agencies. I intend this revised guidance to have a real and positive impact in supporting the police to make robust and evidence-based decisions on applications where domestic violence is a factor.

During this debate, much of the time has been spent discussing legislation. The hon. Member for Easington and the shadow police Minister, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), have said that new guidance is not enough and that we must go further and change the law. The hon. Gentleman co-sponsored the new clause that was debated during the Committee stage of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill. That new clause was designed to amend the Firearms Act 1968 to mandate that background checks be carried out by the police and to introduce a presumption in favour of the refusal of an application where there is substantiated evidence of violence, mental illness or drug and alcohol abuse.

The right hon. Gentleman has already advertised that he has tabled a similar new clause for Report in October. In Committee, I explained why we do not support such an amendment to the Firearms Act, and that remains our position—I will spare the right hon. Gentleman the speech that he heard from me a few weeks ago—mostly because the police can already take these factors into consideration when they consider a firearm application.

The Firearms Act specifies that, before a licence can be issued, the police must be satisfied that the applicant can possess a firearm or shotgun without danger to public safety or the peace. As I said, the revised guidance, which we issued in July, after the Committee stage of the Bill, sets out the factors, including any history of domestic violence, that must be considered in more detail. I believe that the law is sound in this respect and there is no need to change it. In fact, inclusion of that level of detail in the firearms guide, rather than in law, enables it to be updated rapidly when necessary. I invite the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman to consider that point.

It has also been suggested that the firearms guide should be statutory or an approved code of practice. I do not think that that would be the right way forward, either. The law provides the police with discretion in recognition of their responsibility for issues of public safety in local areas. That is important because each application is different and needs to be considered on its merits. I have not seen any evidence or heard any compelling arguments to indicate that that is the wrong approach.

I should say that I am not ruling out legislation in all areas of gun control, because we have introduced legislation to combat the illegal import and supply of guns. That will help to tackle the threat posed by middlemen who supply firearms that are used to harm others, particularly by gangs and organised criminals. The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill will increase the maximum sentence to life imprisonment for illegal importation and exportation. We are also creating a new offence of illegal possession of a prohibited weapon for sale or transfer. That will also carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment and will attract the mandatory minimum sentence within the existing legislation.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

What action is my right hon. Friend the Minister taking with the Department of Health to address the medical questions in relation to the granting, re-granting and revocation of firearm and shotgun licences? I know that he has to collaborate with colleagues in the Department of Health. He knows that there is considerable inconsistency at the moment as to how such matters are dealt with. Some forces require a medical certificate prior to the granting of a licence, while some do not. We need consistency across the country and a robust system that works.

[Damian Green]

I am happy to tell the House and my hon. Friend that we are in discussion not only with colleagues at the Department of Health, but with the British Medical Association, the police and, as he knows, shooting organisations over the role GPs can play in ensuring that the licensing process is as effective as it can be. The police generally now contact an individual’s GP when a firearm or shotgun certificate is granted or renewed. That means the GP has the opportunity to raise any concerns they may have, and has resulted in a number of revocations of firearms licences. We now want to explore whether we can build greater safeguards into that arrangement by making the consultation with GPs part of the application process. In doing so, we obviously need to ensure that there is balance around burden and cost. Those discussions continue.

The hon. Member for Easington made a good point about training. The police are taking steps to improve consistency and promote high standards across police firearms licensing departments. Authorised professional practice on firearms licensing will be introduced by the College of Policing early next year to complement the firearms guide. He will be interested to know that Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary is undertaking a scoping exercise on this very issue with a representative number of forces. I hope he welcomes that.

The conclusions of the scoping study will determine whether a full inspection should take place at a future date. I hope the hon. Gentleman is reassured that, first, the College of Policing—a new body designed to enhance professional standards in the police—is producing a new code on the very specific issue he raises, and, secondly, that HMIC is looking at forces to see how the system works in practice. If it decides that the system is not working on the ground, it will mount a full inspection. I am confident that if HMIC concludes that the system has not improved, it will say so and police forces around the country will act.

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point that whether we are talking about guidance or legislation, we need to get it right, but it is at least equally important that individual firearms officers in police forces across the country do their job effectively and consistently. We have taken steps to ensure that that happens.

As I said, we are in the process of revising and updating the whole firearms guide. I am glad to say that that task is nearing completion and should be completed this year. As hon. Members observed, firearms law is complex. There are a large number of separate pieces of legislation, so the revision of the document is a significant step forward in aiding understanding of the law. Sixteen chapters have now been published, and the aim is to complete the revision by the end of September.

[Mr Hanson]

On that point, is not the key issue that although guidance is open to judicial discretion, legislation is open to tighter discretion in the judicial process? Why does the Minister think that a guidance approach will not result in similar judicial discretion, which will allow firearms licences to be issued?

[Damian Green]

The right hon. Gentleman will know from his experience in the Home Office that just as guidance is open to judicial interpretation, so is legislation. I have been involved in passing various laws that the courts have interpreted in a way that surprised me, as the Minister who introduced the legislation. To some extent, it is a distinction without a difference.

Whether we are talking about legislation or guidance, it should be written clearly enough that the amount of judicial interpretation is minimised. That is a job for this House and we need to get better at it. We need to be able to respond more quickly than we have in the past, and, as I said, changing guidance is easier and quicker than changing legislation. With the forthcoming revision of the guide, for the first time, we are ensuring that it can be updated online, which means that updates will be made faster in future. If anomalies arise, perhaps as a result of judicial interpretation, we will be able to respond much faster.

There has been discussion this afternoon about a national licensing authority. We are worried that a central authority would not be in touch with the kind of local information known to police. In his report on the Dunblane tragedy, Lord Cullen recommended that licensing functions remain with the police. We should listen to what he said in the wake of that terrible tragedy.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I am grateful for the comprehensive way in which my right hon. Friend the Minister is putting the case for how the system will operate. I have one question. If he has rejected a national firearms licensing authority, can he tell us how the 43 police forces will not only operate consistently according to the guidelines, but operate an efficient system consistently, so that the worst performing constabularies come up to the level of the best performing constabularies and the licence holder knows what to expect from the police?

[Damian Green]

My hon. Friend makes a perfectly valid point. We are taking a number of steps, as I explained. The College of Policing is producing a new standard, which all forces, obviously, will apply. As he knows, we are moving to a different licensing system, which will be online.

We are making other changes—for example, a new single form for firearm and shotgun applications is due to be introduced shortly. I hope that greater consistency will be built into the system from the start. It is impossible for any Minister to guarantee that all 43 police forces will perform at the same level in all areas of activity. We all recognise that there are likely to be better and worse performers in each area. It is sensible to ensure that the system is flexible, clear, as simple as possible in this complex area, uses new technology to assist with the desirable changes we want and guarantees the consistency and competence that people of all views wish to see.

I shall talk briefly about the Select Committee on Home Affairs report, because the right hon. Member for Delyn mentioned it.

[Bill Wiggin]

Like me, the Minister is disturbed, I am sure, by the domestic violence figures we heard today. We will never know how many victims would have been murdered had the murderer not had access to a firearm or shotgun, but we can know, if he would be kind enough to find out, how many times a shotgun or firearms certificate holder has committed an offence and not reached for a gun. Whatever sort of crime is committed, if it involves a firearm or shotgun certificate holder, it must be logged in police records. Will he write to me, when he knows what the numbers look like?

[Damian Green]

I hesitate to answer off the top of my head. I suspect that cross-referencing someone’s being the legal owner of a shotgun with their committing a crime is the sort of information that would, to use the phrase, “be available only at disproportionate cost.” I cannot guarantee to find out the information, but I take the point my hon. Friend makes.

The Government support shooting sports and are not opposed to the possession of firearms for legitimate purposes. The vast majority of firearms are used responsibly and safely and the controls must be proportionate and administered fairly. We intend to keep firearms controls under review, so that public safety is protected and to minimise the risk of tragic events occurring, such as those last year in the constituency of the hon. Member for Easington.

I am carefully considering the IPCC recommendations with that approach in mind. A good deal has been achieved over the past year, which is helping to ensure that firearms controls are as effective as they can be, and that will continue over the coming months. I welcome this debate as part of that process.