Firearms Controls

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I join other Members serving under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan, in addressing this important issue. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on bringing the matter of gun control to the House again and on raising it so effectively on numerous occasions.

The debate is about a specific aspect of gun control: how we reduce the small percentage of gun deaths resulting from actions taken by individuals with a history of domestic violence or of alcohol and other problems. We have had a useful debate, including the contribution from the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), which contained nuggets worthy of pursuit. He raised issues about the way in which firearms are licensed, which the Minister should address. Although there was a swathe of his comments I cannot agree with, he has raised some important points.

It is also worth mentioning that the hon. Members for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin), for Lincoln (Karl MᶜCartney), for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) have taken the time to come to the debate to intervene and to add their expertise to our discussions.

My hon. Friend the Member for Easington approached the issue in a measured, reflective and considered way. On his doorstep, he has faced what can only be described as an enormous tragedy, with Mr Michael Atherton’s murders of Susan McGoldrick, Alison Turnbull and Tanya Turnbull on 1 January 2012. That has highlighted to him a way in which we could tighten the legislation to prevent such incidents in the future. As he said, he has not jumped to conclusions; he has looked at this matter.

I, too, have not jumped to conclusions; I have looked at what the Home Affairs Committee, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, Durham police and ACPO have said about the steps the Government could take to mitigate the circumstances we are talking about. I agree with the hon. Member for The Cotswolds that they may be small in number, but that does not mean we should ignore the issue. There is real merit in looking not only at the guidance, but at whether we need legislative back-up to reduce the potential for incidents such as the one that took place in my hon. Friend’s constituency last January.

I fully accept, as the hon. Member for North Herefordshire said, that this boils down to judgment. Judgment is important, but it is now coloured by not only the old guidance, but, potentially, the new guidance issued this month. However, it can also be coloured by legislation, and my hon. Friend made the case for small tweaks during the passage of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill to strengthen previous and current guidance, applying additional rigour and scrutiny to applications for gun or shotgun licences. It is that potential which I support.

As we have heard, there is a pressing need for action better to control firearm violence, small though the number of cases may be. My hon. Friend pointed out that one in three women killed by their domestic partner is shot with a legally owned weapon. Some 64% of those murders involved shotguns. In the past 12 months, 75% of female gun deaths occurred in a domestic setting; in 2009, the figure was 100%. Whatever our view of the small number of deaths caused by shotguns or guns, that figure shows that a high percentage of women who die in domestic violence situations do so as a result of someone using a gun or shotgun.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Those are important figures. Members are saying that the problem is relatively small, given the large number of licences that are issued, and that people use firearms properly. However, evidence from Canada suggests that if we went down the route I suggested, we could dramatically reduce the number of fatalities—particularly those where partners or ex-partners involved in domestic violence use a firearm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hanson]

That is worthy of examination. Nobody is saying that the two women per week killed by a husband, partner or ex are killed with shotguns or guns. However, if a significant body of evidence says there is a high correlation between gun deaths of women and domestic violence, the issue is worthy of consideration.

[Bill Wiggin]

One must never underestimate the importance of doing everything we can to combat any form of domestic violence. However, I urge the shadow Minister to be careful, because two thirds of these murders—that is what they are—are not caused by firearms.

Are people applying for guns so that they can murder people? No, they are not. Does the fact that guns are available force somebody to go to a gun cupboard, unlock it, take the gun out and commit murder? If that is the process they go through, it does not matter what the law says, because they are determined to commit a crime so serious that they deserve to go to prison for the rest of their lives. We have to be careful to think about why these things take place, rather than how they take place.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that important point, which we need to reflect on. However, other domestic violence deaths occur because of the use of the body—the hands—or of day-to-day items around the house, such as knives. We cannot control or legislate for such potential activity, but we can reduce the risk posed by access to shotguns, which are not day-to-day items readily available around the house, where there is substantiated evidence that people—this is not about all the hon. Gentleman’s constituents or all my constituents—are guilty of violent conduct, domestic violence, or drug or alcohol abuse. That, in a sense, is what the guidance said previously, and it is what the revised guidance, announced at the end of July and issued by the Minister, is trying to do.

The discussion we had in the Committee considering the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, and the discussion we are having today, is about whether we could back up that guidance with the rigour of legislation. That would reduce the ability of the courts to make a determination about the judgment of the police. ACPO has made representations to me, saying that police forces refused an application for a firearm licence on three separate occasions, but, despite the deputy chief constable or the chief constable appearing in court to defend the decision, the courts upheld the appeal because there were not sufficient legal grounds to refuse the individual’s application.

If we look at the wording of my new clause 4 to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which will be debated in October—[Interruption.] I hope the hon. Member for North Herefordshire will examine it with interest. Let me tell him, however, that I doubt it is perfect; I do not have the great back-up of the Home Office, as I once did when I held ministerial office. However, the Minister does, and he could reflect on the principle of new clause 4 over the next few weeks before Report to see whether legislative back-up of the guidance is practicable and deliverable. That would at least ensure that we had a black-and-white judgment, rather than a judgment based on a court interpretation.

Members do not need to listen to me, although I hope they will. They could, however, listen to the Independent Police Complaints Authority. Having looked at my hon. Friend’s constituency case, it said in its first recommendation:

“The Home Office should revise the current legislation and guidance to allow for a single uniform test for the assessment of suitability and fitness to possess both firearms and shotguns. ‘Fitness to be entrusted’ should form a specific element of the shotgun application process to ensure clarity and consistency around both applications.”

The word “legislation” was included by the IPCC. In finding 3 of the report it said:

“The Home Office, Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and the College of Policing should devise clear guidance and tighter restrictions around applications for firearms or shotgun certificates”.

I venture to suggest that the guidance element has been examined, but will the Minister confirm that to date the IPCC’s legislation recommendation has not been met?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

The right hon. Gentleman has just made my case. He has read out two paragraphs from the report. One asks for legislation about a person’s fitness to hold a shotgun or firearms licence. I do not know quite how legislation about someone who has been involved in a domestic incident would be framed, or the exact nature of the incident that would contribute to someone’s not being a fit person to hold a firearms licence.

Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman referred to guidance. It is much easier to frame such matters in guidance. Before he rushes to call for extra legislation, does he know how many times, in other force areas, someone who has been involved in a serious incident of domestic violence has not had his licence revoked?

[Mr Hanson]

The IPCC also said in its report that the legislation should be devised in particular to

“take account of bind-overs, arrests and police call outs for domestic violence and an accumulation of convictions for offences where the penalty falls short of that requiring prohibition”.

That means that if someone has a history of a range of matters to do with domestic violence, but has not yet fallen foul of the guidance so as to prevent their having a shotgun licence, that should be sufficient in legislation to ensure that the guidance is tighter. That should be backed up by strong legislation, and we have attempted to draft such legislation in new clause 4 to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill. I sense a difference between my view and that of the hon. Member for The Cotswolds. That is the nature of our debates, but our intention is to put to the Minister, in the measured way of my hon. Friend the Member for Easington, suggestions for helping to reduce such incidents.

My hon. Friend mentioned the issue of full cost recovery for shotgun and other firearms licences. There was a nugget in the remarks of the hon. Member for The Cotswolds, about improving the licensing procedure, that sparked some interest in me. It may come as a surprise to hon. Members that only this year ACPO gave the net cost to police forces of shotgun licences as £18.6 million. The debate has focused primarily on domestic violence, but the Minister needs to reflect on what he will do to ensure that we deal with the current costs.

I will give three examples. North Wales police spent more than £417,000 on issuing licences, but recouped only £113,000 in licence fees, which means that taxpayers in my constituency faced a net cost of £303,000 for supporting the issuing of police licences. In Devon and Cornwall, a £1.2 million total cost generated only £514,000 in revenue. In Thames Valley, £928,000 of cost generated only £148,000, leaving a net cost to the local ratepayers of £780,000.

At a time when we are potentially asking more of the police in relation to shotgun licensing, with legislation at hand, this is an appropriate moment for the Minister to reflect on the cost of licences, and whether taxpayers and ratepayers should continue to subsidise people who apply for them to the tune of £18.6 million this year. The figure is worthy of examination. ACPO has said it would like the fee for a shotgun licence to rise to about £94. That would not mean full recovery of costs, but given that the figure for a licence has not changed in 10 years, there is scope for the Minister to reflect on the matter, or to explain why he is happy for £18.6 million of ratepayers’ money to be taken from police budgets to support the cost of issuing licences to be used for work or sport.

I have touched on only two points, but there is a strong case for the Government and Parliament to consider tightening legislation, to ensure that what happened to Susan McGoldrick, Alison Turnbull and Tanya Turnbull does not happen again, to give the police extra support to work positively on the issue, and at the very least to begin examining the issue of recovering the cost of gun licences. That cost is already a considerable one for the 43 forces, which are hard-pressed by what are, by any stretch of the imagination, severe cuts in their grants.

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply, and thank my hon. Friend the Member for Easington and other hon. Members for their thoughtful speeches. The Committee on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill will consider new clause 4 after the September recess.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

I am happy to tell the House and my hon. Friend that we are in discussion not only with colleagues at the Department of Health, but with the British Medical Association, the police and, as he knows, shooting organisations over the role GPs can play in ensuring that the licensing process is as effective as it can be. The police generally now contact an individual’s GP when a firearm or shotgun certificate is granted or renewed. That means the GP has the opportunity to raise any concerns they may have, and has resulted in a number of revocations of firearms licences. We now want to explore whether we can build greater safeguards into that arrangement by making the consultation with GPs part of the application process. In doing so, we obviously need to ensure that there is balance around burden and cost. Those discussions continue.

The hon. Member for Easington made a good point about training. The police are taking steps to improve consistency and promote high standards across police firearms licensing departments. Authorised professional practice on firearms licensing will be introduced by the College of Policing early next year to complement the firearms guide. He will be interested to know that Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary is undertaking a scoping exercise on this very issue with a representative number of forces. I hope he welcomes that.

The conclusions of the scoping study will determine whether a full inspection should take place at a future date. I hope the hon. Gentleman is reassured that, first, the College of Policing—a new body designed to enhance professional standards in the police—is producing a new code on the very specific issue he raises, and, secondly, that HMIC is looking at forces to see how the system works in practice. If it decides that the system is not working on the ground, it will mount a full inspection. I am confident that if HMIC concludes that the system has not improved, it will say so and police forces around the country will act.

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point that whether we are talking about guidance or legislation, we need to get it right, but it is at least equally important that individual firearms officers in police forces across the country do their job effectively and consistently. We have taken steps to ensure that that happens.

As I said, we are in the process of revising and updating the whole firearms guide. I am glad to say that that task is nearing completion and should be completed this year. As hon. Members observed, firearms law is complex. There are a large number of separate pieces of legislation, so the revision of the document is a significant step forward in aiding understanding of the law. Sixteen chapters have now been published, and the aim is to complete the revision by the end of September.

[Mr Hanson]

On that point, is not the key issue that although guidance is open to judicial discretion, legislation is open to tighter discretion in the judicial process? Why does the Minister think that a guidance approach will not result in similar judicial discretion, which will allow firearms licences to be issued?

[Damian Green]

The right hon. Gentleman will know from his experience in the Home Office that just as guidance is open to judicial interpretation, so is legislation. I have been involved in passing various laws that the courts have interpreted in a way that surprised me, as the Minister who introduced the legislation. To some extent, it is a distinction without a difference.

Whether we are talking about legislation or guidance, it should be written clearly enough that the amount of judicial interpretation is minimised. That is a job for this House and we need to get better at it. We need to be able to respond more quickly than we have in the past, and, as I said, changing guidance is easier and quicker than changing legislation. With the forthcoming revision of the guide, for the first time, we are ensuring that it can be updated online, which means that updates will be made faster in future. If anomalies arise, perhaps as a result of judicial interpretation, we will be able to respond much faster.

There has been discussion this afternoon about a national licensing authority. We are worried that a central authority would not be in touch with the kind of local information known to police. In his report on the Dunblane tragedy, Lord Cullen recommended that licensing functions remain with the police. We should listen to what he said in the wake of that terrible tragedy.