Financial Risk Checks for Gambling

Conor McGinn Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2024 Westminster Hall

[Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Ind)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I was worried that I was going to be declared a non-runner, but I am glad to get under starter’s orders, having listened to numerous colleagues.

Let me say at the outset that those of us with an interest in this topic, from whatever perspective—and, indeed, those of us with a wider interest in sport—are very fortunate that we have, in the Minister and the shadow Minister, two people who are engaged, open to discussion and involved in every aspect of their brief. In fact, I saw the Minister yesterday, and I thought to myself, “He is the great white hope for the Conservative party.” He appeared on our television screens and received rapturous applause, foot-stomping and acclamation on Merseyside. I am sure that it was coincidental that it was when he was at Wembley as a member of the presentation party presenting Jürgen Klopp and Virgil van Dijk with the league cup.

[Sir George Howarth in the Chair]

I draw attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I always say at this point that, having owned horses and gambled on horses, I have given a lot more to racing and betting than it will ever give me, but I am happy to draw—

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Gentleman reminds me to draw the House’s attention to my entry in the register. I am lucky to have been strongly supported by those in Newmarket.

[Conor McGinn]

I am delighted to have given the right hon. Gentleman that opportunity.

I want to be emphatic about this so that we are very clear: I am here to speak on behalf of Haydock Park racecourse in my constituency in St Helens; I am here to speak up for the 100,000 people who signed this petition—decent, honourable, good taxpayers in this country who have a concern about this issue and a love for horseracing; and I am here to say emphatically that the whole of the horseracing industry, which, if I might cheekily say so, is not widely known for its unanimity on issues, speaks with one voice about its concerns on this issue. I am co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group with the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), and this is an interest and an issue that unites people in all parties and across the House.

I want to step back a little and look at the bigger issues. Many of the points that I wish to make have been made already. I furiously agree with the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) on this—as I do, I fear, on too many issues—and he made a lot of the points that I wish to make.

[Philip Davies]

That admission is far more damaging to the hon. Gentleman’s reputation than it is to mine.

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[Conor McGinn]

Indeed, I fear it was mutually assured destruction.

I want to say three things. First, this is bad policy, in terms of the concept and the philosophy behind it, its purpose, and indeed its efficacy in addressing that purported purpose. Secondly, it will have a detrimental, disproportionate and, frankly, existential impact on British horseracing. Thirdly, I will address what the Government, racing and betting can do to try to fix the situation, work together and address their respective challenges.

Having praised the Minister, I do not wish to bury him, but this is not racing’s fault, it is not betting’s fault, and it is not even the Gambling Commission’s fault. They have not led us to this situation; it is the Government that have led us to this situation. It is bad policy by any objective measure—and it is hard to find any objective measure, because it is not evidence based. It is incoherent, and on many levels it is a response to anecdote and emotion. I find it incredible that I say this as an old-fashioned, working-class Labour man, but this is massive Government overreach and an infringement on the right of the individual. On no other legal leisure activity in the UK have the Government set out spending limits in this fashion.

Net loss is a terrible barometer. It takes no account of the hugely different ranges of disposable income that individuals have. The floated £500 trigger per 365 rolling days a year is equivalent to £1.37 a day. I think the hon. Member for Burton (Kate Kniveton) mentioned that figure earlier. That is the equivalent of doing the English lotto, the Euromillions and a scratchcard a week. If the purpose is to tackle problem gambling, it is an odd solution. Tools that already exist, such as self-exclusion and deposit limits, are more effective. If necessary, a conversation can take place with betting about how those measures can be strengthened. I speak with experience of friends and family whose lives have been devastated by addiction, but ultimately it is about the individual and their behaviour, and it is about responsibility. If you want to gamble, you will find a way to gamble.

The point about the black market is, I respectfully say, an important one. If someone wants to gamble a lot, they will be able to gamble a lot. We are not talking about the old fella in the pub who takes a friendly bet on a Saturday; this is about organised crime and national security. It is about the use of technology through drones flying over our racecourses, manipulation of data and all those things that the sport has to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week to stop becoming out of control. We are warning about this issue. The front page of the Racing Post today made the potential consequences very clear. We are talking about a scale of thousands of people and millions of pounds.

That leads me to the point about racing having a specific problem. We do not have to imagine the impact of the policy, because de facto checks are having an impact now. Racing has a specific problem because of the unique, inextricable relationship that we have with betting through the levy, and it is creating a funding crisis for our sport. Like all sports, racing is facing difficult economic headwinds, but the decision to hurt betting revenue, as set out in black and white in the Government’s White Paper, was certainly careless, if not deliberate. The £900 million reduction in horseracing betting revenue will mean a direct hit of £50 million to racing. That is the genesis of the problem.

The right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), who is no longer in his place, pleaded in aid of the rail men—the course bookies. I have been a great defender of theirs, along with so many others. There is nothing better than being on a racecourse, having a bet in the ring, looking at the various odds and enjoying the fun spectacle. We do not have the tic-tac any more, but we certainly enjoy the theatre of on-course betting. It generated £120 million in turnover last year, and off-course betting generated £3 billion in revenue. We are talking about a £5 billion industry. If we are going to come to a debate like this and propose solutions, they have to be serious ones based on numbers and figures.

The reduction in the levy that will result from less betting on racing, and the resultant loss in the value of media rights, will have a consequential impact on prize money. Racecourses face a very difficult environment already, and participants, owners and trainers feel frustrated about the level of prize money. It risks the sustainability of our courses and racing yards. That will mean closures and job losses, and will very quickly put racing in a death spiral. We have already seen the impact on punters; I can attest to that. Racing has become a less attractive product. Bookies have removed best odds guaranteed and people can hardly get a bet on. Racing is part of a delicate ecosystem. We are not quite an endangered species, but this measure puts a motorway through our habitat.

It is funny how sometimes I hear, when I take part in these debates, that somehow one has a pro-bookie approach or is in the pocket of the gambling industry. The shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock), represents a proud working-class constituency like mine. She is from the same bit of the Labour party as me—the sensible bit of it that is rooted in communities. My relationship with the bookies is adversarial. I want to beat the bookies—that is the whole point of gambling. I want to take money from them. As the hon. Member for Shipley says, I sometimes rail against the bookies, but that does not mean that I do not understand the vital contribution that they make to horseracing.

What is it that the Government, racing and gambling can do together? The Government should bin this idea, preferably permanently but certainly until the promised frictionless element is proven to be just that. Generally, the Government should ensure that racing and betting are well run, well regulated and fair, and that they continue providing jobs and contributing to the economy. On racing specifically, they should recognise its huge impact in communities and the wonderful enhancement that it is to the UK, at home and abroad. Other than that, they should butt out. The Minister should enjoy the odd day at the racing, but other than that, the Government should let the two industries get on with it.

I have heard some of the contributions and, well intentioned and from people with a genuine love of horseracing though they are, they need to be challenged. Racing and betting have to work together. They have on this issue, and they need to do so on others. Racing needs to recognise that it receives more now from betting than ever before through the levy, media rights, sponsorship and advertising.

I will add a note of caution. Seeking more from levy reform when turnover on betting on racing is reducing, even if one were to incorporate international racing, is arguably a short-term fix that is not sustainable in the long term. We do not want to be penny wise and pound foolish, taking money in the front door but losing it out the back. For its part, betting needs to continue to enhance and help promote racing. It needs to recognise and support the sport’s unique position and the skill, talent and people that make it a special and precious product. It needs to give the punter a fair price, give us a chance to beat them now and then, and pay us out when we do.

We talk a lot about the provider in terms of the bookies and about the recipient in terms of horseracing, but what about the benefactor? That is the punter—the men and women I consider myself very much a part of and a spokesperson for. Racing should never be afraid to say that gambling is a huge and enjoyable part of our sport. People like me love the mechanics of it, the breeding, the form, the going, the word that we get from Ireland on a big day, but others come for the name, the colours, the numbers, so we need to be careful about putting forward the argument about chance as well.

There is a reason we are the second biggest spectator sport. We need to be confident and clear about that. We need to be strategic and sensible. In this House, like in the country as a whole, we need to win friends and fans and exert influence. I do not think that is beyond us. As you know, Sir George, racing is simultaneously the sport of kings and the pursuit of the masses. Who else can claim that?

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[Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees) for leading this debate. Let me say briefly to the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) that if horseracing were even partially responsible for fomenting an uprising against the UK Government, I would be leading the charge—but it is not. It is a terrific sport, which people gamble on and enjoy. This petition is a tiny bit about horseracing and a lot about the black market and affordability checks, but we have spent nearly two and a half hours talking about the horseracing industry.

Before anyone puts me down, I am delighted that so many MPs here today have recognised the fact that online gambling and online casinos are a dangerous thing and that we have to be on top of that to help people away from the course of addiction. I have not seen many of those Members sitting in front of grieving parents whose child has been driven to complete suicide. I have, however, seen them on the racecourses. I have seen them back up their racecourses. It is understandable: if I had a racecourse in my constituency, I would think that it was a hugely important part of my constituency that generated money and had an important supply chain around it.

[Conor McGinn]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ronnie Cowan]

Not right now.

It is hugely important. If we look at the sort of money that the gambling industry feeds into the industry—

[Conor McGinn]

On a point of order, Sir George. The hon. Gentleman has asserted that Members who spoke in favour of racing or who have racecourses in their constituency have never sat in front of grieving parents, do not know anything about addiction and have never comforted those affected by addiction. The hon. Gentleman knows nothing about me, and he knows nothing about many other colleagues who have spoken. I ask him to be very careful about how he approaches what he says, and to have sensitivity before making assertions about any Member here or their motivations, their families or their experience of addiction.

[Sir George Howarth (in the Chair)]

That is not a point of order, but the hon. Gentleman has managed to get it off his chest.

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[Stuart Andrew]

I have heard the national lottery mentioned a few times. Yes, it is unique—it is under its own separate legislative framework—but under the fourth licence conditions, player protection requirements will be increased and there will be conditions on payments for support, research, education and treatment.

I have also heard arguments for a carve-out for horseracing. I acknowledge that greater gambling harm occurs in online casinos, but we know that those who experience gambling harm use multiple products, and some have been using horseracing products. I have heard harrowing stories of people who have made losses on horseracing products alone.

[Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Ind)]

Will the Minister give way?