Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 16th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

T6. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Government, if they remain in power after the election, intend to carry on with the same level of year-on-year cuts in the next Parliament as they have applied in this Parliament, and if so, will he or the Minister of State seriously consider whether in that situation it will be possible for all councils to remain financially viable and continue to deliver their statutory services?

[Mr Pickles]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s optimism about the chances of there being a Conservative Government and look forward to answering him from this Dispatch Box for many years. I know, like and respect him as the Chairman of the Communities and Local Government Committee, but he was making exactly the same points five years ago and it has proved to be perfectly all right. I cannot anticipate the levels of future budgets, but one thing is certain: whether there is a Conservative, coalition or Labour Government, because of the state of the finances, improving though they are, the level of support to local government will continue to go down.

Troubled Families Programme

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Tuesday 10th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Communities and Local Government Committee has been very supportive of the whole approach on troubled families. However, when the Secretary of State announced his expansion of the programme in 2013, the Committee pointed out that the increase in Government funding was not in proportion to the increase in the number of families to be helped. Does he believe that local authorities can be as successful in future, given the reduction in the amount that central Government spend per family? Given that savings to one public body can be a cost to another as part of the programme, will not real success in the end be the roll-out of whole-place community budgets, so that a proper account can be taken with a total approach to public expenditure in an area? How does he see that being rolled out alongside the troubled families programme?

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very interesting point. It is usual for a Government to aim for the low-hanging fruit when starting such a programme, doing the easy things first before going on to those that are more difficult. We did exactly the reverse by starting with the most difficult families. The troubled families involved in the extended programme have nothing like the complex needs of those in the first tranche, so I think that it will be easier, cheaper and better when we start dealing with them. With regard to money coming in, he might be interested to know that in Sheffield there were 1,680 troubled families over that period, 100% of whom have been turned around, with expenditure of £6.6 million. In Leeds, there were 2,190 troubled families, 100% of whom have been turned around, with expenditure of £7.79 million.

Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

My hon. Friend makes a very reasonable point, and I am particularly irked by the way in which taxis were used. A point has been made about putting in place new measures, but the regulations are pretty clear and straightforward. What we wanted was to see these regulations used. I wonder if I might answer my hon. Friend’s question in a slightly different way: I think lots of lessons will come out of this, and I will ensure that they are all learned very quickly by authorities that license taxis.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for the fact that as Chair of the Select Committee I had an advance look at the report. I have also spoken to Louise Casey, who is going to come to the Committee so that we can explore some of these issues in more detail. I wholly agree with the Secretary of State that this is not a party political matter just because this is a Conservative Secretary of State and this is a Labour council; this is about putting arrangements in place to help the children of Rotherham, who have been let down in the past. May I press him on one point, however? If he decides to appoint commissioners and they find that they need extra resources, particularly to help the young people who have been exploited and abused in the past and now need counselling and other assistance, will he respond positively to any request they make for such financial assistance?

[Mr Pickles]

I shall look very carefully at that, and at the way in which victims and survivors are compensated—perhaps outside this particular. I suspect it is possible that the council itself may well be facing some significant law cases, which it will have to defend. But of course I shall look very carefully on this, and I will also look to the hon. Gentleman to offer some advice on the choice of commissioners as well as on the matters he asks about.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 15th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

As I understand it, we will get an announcement later this week about the local government financial settlement for next year, which could involve a 10% reduction in local authority spending. That is as big a cut in one year as central Government Departments have faced throughout the whole of this Parliament. Will the Secretary of State, in the interests of transparency, give an assurance that he will come to this House and make an oral statement, rather than hide behind a written statement as he did last year?

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman’s recollection is wrong: we made a statement from this Dispatch Box. We cannot anticipate what the business managers of this House will do. We will take the hon. Gentleman’s words into consideration.

London Borough of Tower Hamlets

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

My hon. Friend was a very distinguished Minister in my Department, and he will know how long I agonised over the decision on Doncaster, because this kind of intervention goes against everything I believe in. I believe that local government is an independent entity and that is one of the strengths of our constitution, but there comes a point at which we need to ensure transparency, fairness and accountability, and it is certainly my hope that one of the commissioners will have extensive experience of practical election law and procedure, as that will strengthen that. It is also certainly my intention that Tower Hamlets will come out of this process much stronger.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I welcome the actions and proposed actions of the Secretary of State and his comments about the general good conduct of local government and local councillors throughout the country. He referred to audit arrangements. There have been some changes, but there is nothing in them that means that throughout this period the auditor in Tower Hamlets did not have the ability and powers properly to audit these accounts. However, in December 2012 the overview and scrutiny committee, despite being quite weak in many respects, highlighted concerns about the grant process and asked for a referral to the district auditor. Despite that, the external auditor, KPMG, signed off these accounts without qualification for 2012-13, as it did for 2011-12. Are there not serious questions to be asked about the role of the external auditors in this regard and about their value for money, or lack of it, in carrying out this work?

[Mr Pickles]

I was probably unkind to the Audit Commission in many respects, but it did stand around doing nothing on this, as, indeed, it did on Doncaster—which required the LGA to act in Doncaster. The existing auditors have to answer for their own conduct, but I will say that I do not think this was their finest hour.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Pickles]

Not for the first time, Mr Speaker, you take the words out of my mouth. My hon. Friend is a member of a very well-run council and he expresses some wise views. I would be interested in hearing his views, and those of any right hon. or hon. Member, as to how we might strengthen scrutiny in local authorities. Given that we have had a while to bed it down, there probably is a time for a re-examination.

[Mr Betts]

indicated assent.

[Mr Pickles]

I see the Chair of the Select Committee nodding wisely.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 8th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

T4. Last week, in a statement on child exploitation in Rotherham, the Home Secretary said that the Secretary of State was “minded” to commission an independent investigation of what had happened there. Will the Secretary of State update the House on his thinking, and tell us whether it would be within the remit of those conducting such an investigation to look into the accountability of officers who work for Rotherham now or have done so in the past, and their responsibility for anything that happens in this regard?

[Mr Pickles]

I hope to make an announcement very soon. There has been a delay because I want to ensure that the person that I should like to lead the inquiry is able to clear their diary.

I think that the fundamental question does revolve around governance, accepting responsibility and ensuring that there is a chain of command, so I take what the hon. Gentleman has said very seriously, and I think he is on the money.

Cost of Living: Energy and Housing

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Thursday 5th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Betts]

I very much agree with that. The Select Committee is currently doing an inquiry into the operation of the national planning policy framework. One problem can be seen in paragraph 47 and subsequent paragraphs, whereby the sites for the five-year housing supply in the local plan have to be viable and deliverable. Developers are now claiming that brownfield sites are not viable or deliverable in the current economic circumstances, forcing local authorities to revisit their local plans and include more greenfield sites. We need to look very carefully at that problem. The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, to which we must give further consideration.

There is nothing wrong with people renting homes in the private rented sector, and many people are happy in the homes they rent. The real problem is the uncertainty over which home people will be living in in six months’ time, which also means uncertainty about which school their children will attend. It means uncertainty about whether they will have to live near their parents or grandparents to provide child care, or about whether to live on a suitable bus route for their job. Those are real problems—uncertainty and the instability it causes to family life. I therefore suggest that any measures to lengthen tenancies and provide more security should be welcomed.

I have made it clear on the record—the Select Committee report said it—that I am not in favour of rent control. If we try to interfere with the rent at the beginning of a tenancy negotiated between a landlord and tenant, we will damage the ability to attract private investment into better-quality private rented provision, which is something we must not do. If, however, we can find a way of making tenancies naturally and usually longer than the current six months to a year, we should go ahead with it. The proposals from the Opposition Front-Bench team are at least an interesting move in that direction, and I hope the Secretary of State will be prepared at least to consider them. I am sure he would like to see longer tenancies as well. I think we all want to provide greater certainty for families in the private rented sector.

We can do more to regulate letting agents. During the Select Committee’s inquiry, we heard more complaints about them and their activities than about any other issue. The Government have indicated that they want to make the whole process more transparent, so that people know what they will have to pay from day one rather than incurring hidden charges later. We ought to ban double charging: it is wrong that both landlord and tenant can be charged for the same service. Charging tenants has been banned in Scotland, and the Select Committee will be looking into that further. It has been argued that landlords will simply add their charge to the rent, but it might be slightly easier for a tenant to pay a little more rent each month than to find an average of £500 to pay the letting agent up front while at the same time having to find a deposit, which is often very difficult.

I wish the Government would reconsider their refusal to give local authorities more flexibility in the regulation of standards of private rented accommodation. The present licensing system is cumbersome, and operates only in areas of low demand or where there is antisocial behaviour. I am not entirely sure of the merits of a national registration scheme, but empowering authorities to adopt a mandatory registration scheme would provide the necessary degree of flexibility, and might make it possible to control the worst excesses of the worst landlords who will not join voluntary accreditation schemes. For several weeks, Sheffield city council encouraged landlords who were objecting to a licensing scheme in one area to apply for a voluntary accreditation scheme in the neighbouring area. During that time, only one came forward in Page Hall and Fir Vale in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett).

Some horror stories have emerged from the mandatory licensing scheme. A classic example is the story of a cooker that was not properly wired up, but was connected to ordinary sockets by a wire running right across the kitchen. In other instances, wiring has been left bare and dangerous. The council is now trying to deal with those problems, but the Inland Revenue would surely have a major interest in ensuring that landlords are registered so that it can know who is receiving rent from tenants. This is a complete scandal, and we need to put an end to it.

Let me now say something about the impact of immigration, a subject that arose frequently during the recent elections. By and large, people do not object to immigration. The problem is the Government’s “one size fits all” policy of a 100,000 limit, and the fact that they are shoving every kind of migrant into a single category. People in Sheffield do not object when doctors or computer technicians, of whom we have not enough in this country, come here to do vital jobs. Nor do they object to overseas students, who are clearly bringing real income and benefit to the city. Sheffield university is one of our biggest industries, involving a great many people, and there are also long-term benefits to be gained from allowing overseas students to study in this country.

The Government are right to take a firm view on the incomes that people should have when they sponsor those who wish to come here as dependants, and to say that those who come should be able to speak English. The real problem is caused by economic migrants, particularly those who come from the European Union. If we remain a member of the EU, as I hope we shall, we are likely to have to settle for the free movement of labour, even if we can mitigate the effects of that in the case of new entrant countries. However, people who come from the poorer parts of the EU are likely to enter poorer communities. If we, as a society, believe that immigration can provide benefits for the whole of our country, the whole of our country has a responsibility to help the individuals and communities on whom the entry of migrants will put particular pressure, for instance in relation to jobs and working conditions.

We know what happens in many cases. We believe that about 2,000 Slovak Roma are coming into Sheffield in Fir Vale and Page Hall and in Darwen and Tinsley, which are in my constituency. They are given a package: they are offered a deal whereby when they obtain jobs, which are mostly unskilled and low paid, those who give them the jobs take money from their pay packets and use it to pay the rents for the often grossly overcrowded housing they are given. That gets around the minimum wage legislation because the people do not see the whole of their wages, and they pay inflated rents because of the lack of proper regulation and rent contracts. That scam is going on, and we need to toughen up on regulation and enforcement.

I am pleased the Government are looking to introduce greater penalties for failure to pay the minimum wage. We ought to put more resources into that, and look at what local authorities can do to help enforce paying the minimum wage, and at the scams that link working conditions and working arrangements to housing arrangements. Local authorities will be very well placed, through the extra powers to enforce better housing conditions and their role in minimum wage enforcement, to bring those two things together and stop these scams, which undermine the working conditions and job opportunities of existing residents and cause a lot of grievance in the local community. We must recognise that this is a problem and tackle it. It is not racism to oppose such things; it is about people saying, “My job is being undercut; my conditions are being undercut; it simply isn’t fair.”

My right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough and I have been to see the Secretary of State to discuss the pressure on local public services that is being generated, and he has promised us another meeting. I met local doctors in Darnall last week, because people are complaining that they cannot get an appointment to see their GP. The doctors tell me that the numbers of migrants coming into the local community are simply overwhelming them, and the money that comes for having patients arrives a long time after the patients arrive. They want to do thorough health checks on people who come from a background where they are not offered such checks, and that is absolutely right, but they also have people coming to them who do not speak English, so every consultation takes twice as long. People who have lived in that community for years then get upset and angry and irritated. They cannot get to see their GP, or have to wait in a queue while others take twice as long as them with the GP. We have to put resources in to help address that issue.

Resources must also go into the schools where kids are coming in who cannot speak English not just at five, but often at seven and eight. Some of them have not been to school at all, and not only their inability to speak English but sometimes their behaviour poses a great challenge to the school. I asked one head, “How many of these kids have you got?” and I was told, “Thirty. But not the same 30 as last month because they move around.” Having newly come to the country, they tend to be mobile; they have no fixed abode, and they may be somewhere else in a month’s time. That is a challenge to schools, to the police and to our housing services.

Therefore, if we believe as a country that there is benefit from migration, the communities facing those pressures need extra resources and assistance to cope. People say to me, “Mr Betts, is it fair that I have been waiting 15 years on the housing list, but someone can come to this country and in six months’ time get a house from the council?” Often, that does not happen, but the perception it could happen again builds up resentment. Councils could take action to give more priority to people who have been on the waiting list for a long time, because our communities will think that is fairer. That could be done, and the Government might think about that.

Finally—

[Mr Pickles]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Betts]

Absolutely; I will give way to the Secretary of State and then reach my peroration.

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman and his colleague the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) came to see me and I was persuaded by what they had to say, and we are working on a package to be helpful. It has to go beyond money and be about services. I think the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying he is selling himself short, too, because what really impressed me from my meeting with him and his right hon. Friend was his determination to ensure the newcomers were properly integrated into the system, and the recognition that the failure to do that so far was making the situation worse. I commend him and his right hon. Friend, who sadly is not with us today, on the efforts they are putting in.

[Mr Betts]

That is absolutely right, and one of the positive things going on—it is not all negative by any means—is that the Pakistani Muslim centre had an open day for the Slovak Roma community a month ago in my constituency to which over 300 people came. That was a great event. Also, earlier today I got an e-mail from the Handsworth junior football club, which is going to give a week’s free coaching in August for the deprived community of Darnall, which has people from the Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Somali and Slovak Roma communities. It is going to be open house for all to come along for a week’s free coaching. We can do these events on the ground, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough and I are very much involved in trying to stimulate such activity.

My final point does not relate to the Queen’s Speech, but it was interesting to hear the Conservatives’ major announcement last week of a commitment to radical fiscal devolution for Scotland. They have gone further than the other two parties in that regard, and I commend them for that. We shall not be doing much about that during this Session, however, and we ought to be thinking ahead to what will happen after the next Queen’s Speech. If Scotland votes to stay in the Union, as I very much hope it will, and if there is then extra devolution to Scotland and Wales, the really big question that we will all have to think about is the English question. Once such devolution has happened in Scotland and, to a great extent, in Wales, how will we be able to devolve English government in a way that will rejuvenate our local democracy and give our local authorities greater fiscal powers and responsibilities? That is the major question that we need to be thinking about.

Housing

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for that. Our long-term economic plan is helping to pay off the deficit, keep interest rates down and let the housing market recover.

[Mr Betts]

rose—

[Mr Pickles]

Of course I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but just let me make a little bit of progress.

According to the Office for National Statistics, house building is now at its highest level since 2007, based on new orders in residential construction. House building starts in the last quarter were at their highest level since 2008. The National House-Building Council agrees, with new home registrations at their highest since 2008. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors has declared that

“every part of the country has reported growth since the beginning of the market crash six years ago.”

Contrary to the Opposition’s motion, statistics on net housing supply show that 400,000 more homes have been delivered in the first three years, which is in line with figures before Labour’s housing crash.

[Mr Pickles]

Basically, if the right hon. Gentleman walks through the door of Eland house and embraces Stanley Baldwin’s figures, he will find that it takes a wee while to start to make progress. He should congratulate the Government on what we have been doing to get the thing going again, and it is a matter of some pleasure that that is the case.

[Mr Betts]

rose—

[Mr Pickles]

I will give way to the distinguished hon. Gentleman in a moment, but I would like him to consider that brick makers stayed at work over the Christmas period—very unusually—to catch up with demand for bricks to build new homes. Including empty homes being brought back into use, the new homes bonus has made available more than half a million more homes to buy and rent. I must say that I have, after a fashion, become attached to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central [Interruption.] I am not pleased. I am worried about what will happen when he returns to Leeds, because he has been talking about the new homes bonus. He has been saying that it is going to all kinds of places, but which authority is in the top 10 for the receipt of new homes bonus? Which authority is at number six and challenging for the top position? Yes, I am talking about Leeds metropolitan authority. The right hon. Gentleman is sticking his nose up at the prospect of the people of Leeds receiving £27.2 million.

[Mr Betts]

The Secretary of State will remember his visit to the Select Committee just after the Government were formed. I asked the then Housing Minister, the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), whether success for the Government, when they are eventually judged on their record,

“will be building more homes per year than were being built prior to the recession, and that failure will be building less.”

The right hon. Gentleman said:

“Yes. Building more homes is the gold standard on which we shall be judged.”

My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) has just said that we were building more than 200,000 homes a year before the recession. When will the Government hit their own targets and hit that figure?

[Mr Pickles]

Well, as we leave behind the ghost of Stanley Baldwin bequeathed to us by the Labour Front Bench, the figures demonstrate that we are really starting to move. The hon. Gentleman should be rejoicing in the fact that our policies are working.

In the 2005 manifesto, the previous Labour Government pledged that there would be 1 million more home owners. In reality, home ownership fell by more than 250,000. Yet the aspiration of home ownership has returned. According to the Bank of England, mortgages to first-time buyers are at their highest level. Both the Council for Mortgage Lenders and the Halifax report the same. Thanks to the action taken to tackle the deficit, we have kept interest rates down. The number of repossessions is at its lowest level for five years and continues to fall. The Bank of England reports that the number of new mortgage arrears cases is at its lowest quarterly level since its records began.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

rose—

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Pickles]

And before the honeyed words arrive, I can think of nobody more appropriate to give way to than the emollient Chairman of the Select Committee.

[Mr Betts]

I am still struggling with understanding why the Secretary of State is resisting amendment 7 and instead arguing in favour of article 4. He says the amendment’s scope is far too wide, but that article 4 is there to be used instead. Are there therefore certain circumstances in which authorities may want to opt out of permitted development rights under amendment 7, but would not be able to use article 4? If so, what are those circumstances?

[Mr Pickles]

Well, one might be concerned that this might be misrepresented as a money-raising exercise—a nice little earner—for local authorities, and that it would be in their financial interests for us to accept amendment 7. It is important that the British public—or the English public in this case—have confidence in the planning system.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 4th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

I can give my hon. Friend that reassurance. The figures show that the scheme that gives the weighting for deprivation is essentially unchanged from Labour’s scheme, apart from one significant change. We have introduced banded floors—damping floors—that mean that those who are more dependent on grant receive more protection than those who are more prosperous. It is fair to say that the settlement is more progressive and gives greater weight to deprivation than Labour’s scheme.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

When the Secretary of State first announced the settlement for next year he referred to a cut in spending power of 1.7%. Will he confirm that that should have been 2.6%, as he double-counted the council tax support money? Will he also confirm that the cash handed over to local authorities in the start-up funding assessment next year will be 8.4% less than this year’s formula grant, which it replaces? Will the Secretary of State stop pretending that cuts of that magnitude can be managed without hitting front-line services?

[Mr Pickles]

I am delighted to confirm to the hon. Gentleman that the reduction in spending power is not 1.7% but 1.3%. That represents good news. Figures tend to move about—[Laughter.] That is why we have a provisional settlement. I do not know why Opposition Members are laughing; I respectfully remind them that in several settlements things changed dramatically and that one year Labour was forced to go out to consultation again.

Local Government Finance

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point and he deserves a serious answer. We looked at whether we would be able to do that. We took advice from local government, which said that it is keen to have some degree of stability through the introduction of the new system. We certainly hope that the people of Cornwall, who are renowned for their enterprise and for living in a wonderful place to visit, will rise to the new funding arrangements. The further away we move from the old formula, the more places such as Cornwall will be able to triumph.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The removal of pensions from councillors will do nothing to encourage younger people in employment to come forward and stand for public service. Will he reflect on what he said at the Select Committee last week, and listen to his colleagues in local government? He dismissed the graph of doom then, but might he now start to think that this is not simply a fantasy, as he has claimed, but a reality of his own making, which has come into effect more quickly and more harshly with the withdrawal and destruction of public services in the poorest communities in our country?

[Mr Pickles]

I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would be delighted that the spending power per household in his constituency is £2,421, which is much higher than in many Government Members’ local authorities, and that the drop in spending power represents only 2.7%. I have some faith in the entrepreneurial spirit of the people of Sheffield; the hon. Gentleman seems to want to keep them in chains. His point about pensions is frankly not worthy of him. A relatively small number of councillors have taken this up. It costs £7 million a year. It is perfectly acceptable to me, and I think that they will probably get a better deal, if they use part of the sums they receive out of the public purse to make their own arrangements.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 17th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I suspect his experience is shared by other Members, but I have to tell him that the situation is worse than he thought because, even in opposition, Labour is planning to clobber pensioners. My Department has been almost swamped by demands from Labour councils to have the right to be able to tax pensioners on council tax benefit, as they attempted to tax the poor.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

It is possible that in the next financial year more councils, including Conservative-controlled ones, will decide to increase their council tax. Councils are worried that although help has been made available for a council tax freeze, the Government may decide not only not to continue with it beyond 2013, but to withdraw the help made available for previous years, thus creating a black hole in council finances. Will the Secretary of State give a categorical assurance that the money made available in 2013 for the council tax freeze will be made available to councils on a permanent basis?

[Mr Pickles]

It is in the base. It goes into the base next year, and I can give a guarantee to the extent that I can guarantee anything with regard to financial support for councils, but if the hon. Gentleman is expecting me to project levels of council tax support beyond the millennium—perhaps well into the next millennium— I have to tell him that I cannot do so. It is wholly erroneous to suggest this is just for one year, however.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 5th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Two years ago, the coalition Government were formed to take the country from difficult times to better days. In the coalition agreement, we pledged to build a new economy from the rubble of the old, to support sustainable growth, balanced across all industries and parts of the country, and to champion enterprise and aspiration. We pledged to shift power from unelected quangos to elected representatives, communities, neighbourhoods and individuals. Most urgently, we pledged to take immediate action to tackle the deficit and get the public finances back on track.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Pickles]

I will give way in a few moments.

Since those heady days of May 2010, the economy has been buffeted by the problems of the eurozone. All western economies face the ongoing consequences of the banking collapse and the last decade of boom and bust. The world has changed, however, and so must we. The west is slipping down international league tables as emerging economies push ahead with energy and drive. Countries that make it will be those that step up to long-term challenges to get the economy growing, build more homes for a growing population, and provide factories, offices and infrastructure for the 21st century.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Pickles]

My right hon. Friend can rest assured that the Government are confident of being able to deliver 170,000 homes, and of ensuring affordable homes for those who need housing. That is considerably better than in any of the past 10 years when the Labour party was in power.

[Mr Betts]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Pickles]

I will, of course, give way to the Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee.

[Mr Betts]

The Secretary of State said that one of the Government’s fundamental intentions is to transfer powers from unelected quangos to elected councils. Is the Planning Inspectorate an elected quango?

[Mr Pickles]

No, it is accountable to Ministers and directly to this House, which I think restores the political balance.

The coalition has taken a number of measures to ensure that Britain can compete in a global world. The Local Government Finance Act 2012, which received Royal Assent last week, provides new incentives for councils to support enterprise and local firms, through the local retention of business rates. Local enterprise partnerships are ensuring that local councils work hard with local businesses to bring about growth. We are also looking in detail at Lord Heseltine’s practical recommendations on how we can further devolve power and funding. Through the wide-ranging Localism Act 2011, we are abolishing unelected quangos such as the Infrastructure Planning Commission and regional assemblies, replacing them with democratic accountability at national, local and neighbourhood levels. We are also scything through the reams of planning red tape imposed by Labour’s Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, Planning Act 2008 and Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009.

Housing and Planning

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Thursday 6th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

One of my more poignant memories of opposition is of being with my hon. Friend in her constituency and looking at the devastation caused by flooding. I pay tribute to her hard work locally on that and am pleased that additional anti-flood measures have been put in place. Clearly that is something we have to consider, but I am sure that she will recognise that the conservatories and extensions will not be freestanding; they will be part of existing dwellings.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The statement is a continuation of the Government’s attacks on the planning system as being responsible for all our ills. The only difference, of course, is that now the planning system they are attacking is the one the Secretary of State has just created. I wish to ask two simple questions. First, how can it possibly be localist to transfer planning decisions at first instance from elected local councils to the Planning Inspectorate? Secondly, how can we have any assurance that the number of affordable houses being built will increase when there is not a single mention here of the role of local authorities in building homes and when the number of homes built for housing associations will decline as section 106 agreements are revisited?

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman has considerable experience in these matters, so I am surprised by his reaction, because this is about working hand in hand with local people. There might be a degree of muscular localism about it, but we will work together with good local authorities. It is only those local authorities that have been dragging their feet and being wholly unrealistic, operating in a kind of economy la-la land, that we will be dealing with. He should see this as an act of help and friendship towards local authorities, many of which have responded magnificently to the process of getting houses built. After all, the Labour party never contemplated anything like the guarantee we are offering on social houses; it was too radical for it. I think that we, the Deputy Prime Minister and our coalition partners have been most bold in taking this decision.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

The whole point about TIF 2 is that it goes beyond a reset. That is why there needs to be a degree of co-operation from Treasury colleagues. The period for TIF 1, of course, is potentially 10 years. We will encourage local authorities to work together on TIFs and pool their resources—I think I recall the right hon. Gentleman speaking about this some time ago—which will be enormously liberating for them.

The Bill also sets out a replacement for council tax benefit, which is essential in supporting those who, through no fault of their own, struggle to pay their council tax bills. However, rather than having a national, one-size-fits-all scheme, designed and directed by Whitehall, we propose that councils themselves should set up council tax support at the local level. We will give them the flexibility to design schemes that reflect local priorities. Tailor-made approaches will also be essential to making the 10% saving, which is an important component of the plan for reducing the deficit inherited from Labour. Some councils are already considering how they might exercise the new powers and discretions. Westminster city council, for example, is looking into the idea of social contracts, such as linking council tax benefit with obeying the law, actively seeking employment and undertaking voluntary work. That is fundamentally no different from councils such as Manchester and Newham, which are seeking to prioritise individuals in work for council house waiting lists, ending the “something for nothing” culture while providing a safety net for the vulnerable. I believe that benefits should provide the right incentive to get people back to work and to reward social responsibility.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The reality, surely, is that on day one councils will receive what they are currently paying out in council tax benefit, minus 10%. They will have no choice about where that 10% comes from, because pensioners will be protected—we might support that—as will people in work, because councils have to observe the 65% tapers under the universal credit. In the end, therefore, the totality of those cuts will fall on the unemployed of working age, leading to probably up to 20% to 30% of their benefit being withdrawn. If unemployment goes up and more people claim council tax benefit, that will mean either money drawn from other services to fund it or further cuts for those on council tax benefit who are unemployed.

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point, but I would put it this way:

“Beveridge would have wanted determined action from government to get communities working once again, not least to bring down that benefits bill to help pay…the national debt…He would have wanted reform that was tough-minded, and asked everyone to work hard to find a job.”

That seems a very reasonable way to express it; indeed, those are the very words of the shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, in his article in The Guardian last week. I am pleased that that approach was also endorsed by the Leader of the Opposition on the “Today” programme this morning, so frankly, I am not entirely sure that I understand the points being made by Opposition hon. Ladies and Gentlemen.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 31st October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

I am happy to join my hon. Friend in thanking those two councils for prioritising their expenditure, for working together, and for protecting front-line services. After all, that is what local government should do, and it is what local government is particularly good at.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has earmarked funds for councils for this year and next year to encourage them to freeze council tax. Given the importance to councils of planning, is the Secretary of State thinking about what will happen in the following year? Is he likely to continue his present policy? Does he accept that if he withdraws the grant he will not have frozen council tax, but will merely have deferred two years’ increases and produced the possibility of very large increases in the following year?

[Mr Pickles]

With great respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not accept that for a moment. The arrangements for council tax in the current year will continue next year and the year after, throughout the spending period. On top of that, there is a one-off payment to councils to help them to reduce their expenditure. That seems eminently sensible to me. After that, the people will decide; it will not be up to me. The hon. Gentleman scoffs at referendums. The hon. Gentleman does not like talking about democracy. The hon. Gentleman seems not to think that the population are up to making such important decisions, but we do.

Local Government Finance

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

The rating authority—the district authority —will continue to collect, but the county council and district councils will receive a sum of money equivalent to the existing formula grant and will continue to share in the growth. That means that counties and districts will be able to work in partnership with business, and determine between them a proper relationship. There will be no problem with their ability to determine where the money falls.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I do not think that even the Secretary of State could describe this as a simplification. I am a long-term supporter of the localisation of business rates, but is not the problem that the cut in Government funding to local authorities will mean that by 2013 the totality of that funding will just about equal the business rates, and that if each local authority keeps its own business rate there will be nothing left for redistribution to the authorities with the greatest need, and the least ability to raise money? Is not the fundamental problem the fact that he cannot deliver localisation and fairness in the same agenda?

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman, who is distinguished in these matters—I am rather hoping that the Communities and Local Government Committee, which he chairs, might consider holding a special hearing on it—is entirely wrong. The levy system is there to pick up various authorities that will enjoy extra growth. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) will contain herself, I shall explain. Different parts of the country will enjoy economic growth at different rates. We will ensure that if areas of the country see disproportionate growth—Kensington and Chelsea, the City of London or the authorities next to Lakeside or Bluewater, for example—the money will be distributed. If we did not do that everybody would go and live there, because the pavements would be covered in gold. It is a natural process. Rather than people being on their bended knees, we will ensure that poorer parts of the country not only enjoy the benefits of economic growth through what they themselves achieve, but benefit from prosperity in the wider community.

Amendment of the Law

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. We have included zero-carbon homes, and that will take effect from 2016. [Interruption.] We most certainly have done that.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I ask the Secretary of State to look at paragraph 2.12 of “The Plan for Growth”, which states that where an authority does not have a development plan or where such a plan is not up to date, there will be a presumption that an application “will be accepted”. That sentence does not mention sustainability, but just that such applications will be accepted. Does that mean that where there is an up-to-date plan, a developer will have less chance of getting an application through than in an authority without a current local development framework that is still operating on a unitary development plan? In other words, will there be a two-tier and differential planning system in this country, which we have never had before?

[Mr Pickles]

The local plan will have to reflect the presumption as well. It will be reflected in the national planning framework, which in turn will be reflected in the local plan. If a plan is ambiguous or out of date, that presumption will take effect, but there might be an existing plan that conforms to the presumption in favour of sustainable development. Members will now understand why planning is such fun.

Our planning reforms, like the new roles for local councils and entrepreneurs, are there to drive growth, just like the council tax freeze for hard-working families. They show that localism and economic growth go hand in hand. Those who think that the key to getting Britain growing again is for Whitehall to seize control should learn the lesson of history, which is that it repeats itself because no one was listening the first time round.

Let us compare two years, 1924 and 2009. There are many parallels. In 1924, Lenin is dead and Stalin is planning to take absolute power; John Logie Baird is demonstrating a prototype of his latest invention, the televisor; in New York, theatre audiences are getting their first sight of a dance called the Charlton—[Hon. Members: “Charleston!”] Charleston. I do beg your pardon. Also, house building in the UK reaches an all-time low.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 28th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

I know that my hon. Friend has taken a great interest in the issue, and that he recently made a number of important points about it to the Select Committee. We are encountering some resistance locally, but we must be vigilant and push local authorities into making decisions, because the future lies in a system that enables us to bring together locally all the funds from the various Departments.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I welcome the commitment made by the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark)—who is responsible for decentralisation—to look favourably on any further proposals for community budgets from local authorities, but does the Secretary of State not agree that Departments have an obligation to become more involved and proactive in this regard? Does he understand my disappointment that at a recent meeting of the Select Committee, Ministers from the Department for Work and Pensions, the Home Office and the Department of Health could not between them cite a single proposal for further decentralisation measures? Is it not time that the Government as a whole got their act together?

[Mr Pickles]

The short answer is yes, of course. As I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery), this is a very important Government policy, and much of the reluctance arises in Departments, on the ground. I look to the hon. Gentleman, the Select Committee and my Department—which is taking a considerable lead—to deliver on the policy. I believe that if we do so, we shall be delivering something much better.

Local Government Finance

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Lady and her councils were given quite a lot of time. The former Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West, made it clear that changes were going to be made, and a number of the most vulnerable areas were hit by the fact that it was made clear that the working neighbourhoods fund was going to end in March this year. It seems to me that a number of councils did not make any provision for that and blithely assumed that the money would continue, despite the fact that the Labour Chancellor made it perfectly clear that it was ending. Ladies and gentlemen on the Labour Benches who cheered his Budget announcement did not raise any objection at the time.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Pickles]

I will give way in a few moments, but I shall make a little progress, if the Chairman of the Communities and Local Government Committee will forgive me.

The changes make the system fairer and more progressive than it has ever been. The second thing that we did is try to marry the need to tackle the deficit with the need to help councils to adapt, as I told my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field). In December, I said that no council would face more than an 8.9% reduction in spending power and that we would provide a grant to cushion councils that would otherwise have had a sharper fall. Today, we are going further by increasing the transition grant to councils from £85 million to £96 million next year, which means that the average reduction in spending power is just 4.4% and that no council will see a reduction of more than 8.8%.

Let us look at one of the problems that we faced. Concessionary bus travel is a classic example of how the previous Government did things—they made a grand promise without any clue about how it would be funded. Administration of concessionary bus travel under Labour was a shambles. I do not think that councils should have to pay for the misjudgment of the Labour Government, so I am topping up the formula grant by a further £10 million next year to compensate shire districts.

Thirdly, we are committed to protecting local taxpayers. Council tax bills more than doubled under Labour, while front-line services such as bin collections halved. It is only right that we give hard-working families a helping hand.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Pickles]

Of course the settlement is very disappointing, but the Government would not do what we are doing had we not found the nation’s finances in chaos and with a record budget deficit. The only reason that we are doing this is that the right hon. Lady failed to control her party.

[Mr Betts]

rose—

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

rose—

[Mr Pickles]

I would give way to my right hon. Friend, but I feel like I have been persecuting the Chairman of the Communities and Local Government Committee.

[Mr Betts]

The Secretary of State said that this is a matter for local decision, and that there is no need for any council to make cuts to front-line services. Can he name one single council in the country that has so far managed to reach a budget decision without any cuts to front-line services?

[Mr Pickles]

Yes, I can—Reading and Ribble Valley have done so. We have a list, but the hon. Gentleman is ascribing words to me that I did not say. I said that before authorities touch front-line services, they should look at sharing back offices, chief executives and top offices, move back services and improve procurement. That is what I said. There is a very big difference—right across the country—between councils that have attempted those things and those that have decided to cut deep into public services.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has obviously listened to many representations in the past few weeks, but the question is whether he has actually heard what people have been saying and whether he is prepared to act. Today, we have found out that, presumably after prostrating himself on the floor before the Chancellor, he has come away with a further £10 million.

[Mr Pickles]

No, it is entirely from the Department’s budget.

[Mr Betts]

Local authorities are going to get a further £10 million on top of the settlement they were previously promised. Even if that £10 million was given to one authority, such as Salford, instead of its reduction in total spend being cut from 8.9% to 8.8%, there would hardly be dancing in the streets. Authorities such as mine in Sheffield are getting nothing extra out of that small amount of additional money: they will still get a cut of more than 8%.

[Mr Pickles]

The figure is £10 million extra to district authorities. That is why the cut for authorities is no longer 8.9% but 8.8%. Extra money has gone in—not a lot, but we have been able to drop the cut a little.

[Mr Betts]

The Secretary of State’s words are very apposite—it is not a lot of money, but there are an awful lot of reductions up and down the country that local government is having to deal with.

My first point, which I made in a Westminster Hall debate but still have not received an adequate response to is that the overall cuts in Government expenditure over the four-year period are 19%, whereas the cuts for local government are 26%. Why is local government experiencing higher cuts than the overall average cuts to Government spending? We know that the services delivered by local government are important to our constituents. Some of those services go to those in most need—social services provision for aids and adaptations and for looked-after children. Some of them concern quality of life—for example, libraries, parks, playing fields and sports centres—and others are essential, such as refuse collection, street repairs and street lighting.

Most local authorities are doing all they can to protect their social services provision and to protect looked-after children and children with particular disadvantages, so it should come as no surprise that even when they have looked at back-room services and sharing services with other authorities, councils throughout the country of all political persuasions are cutting services such as libraries and bus services and changing their methods of refuse collection.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Betts]

I cannot identify the reserves of each authority, but the total figures provided by the Government include items such as school reserves—

[Mr Pickles]

No.

[Mr Betts]

—over which authorities do not have discretion. The figures include the housing revenue account and working capital that is needed to manage the cash flow of an authority, and they probably include identified sums in the authority’s capital accounts for major projects. All those things tend to get lumped together. The Secretary of State says that is not true. If he produced a list of figures for each local authority that extracts all those sums, that would be very interesting to see. I look forward to a copy of that being placed in the Library.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Betts]

Manchester city council has to make its own local decisions, and I am not here to support or defend every action of every local authority. I thought that leaving such matters to local councils was what localism was all about. We must not put them in the position where they have to make cuts in front-line services, as Somerset, Gloucester and other authorities are having to do.

I support what the Government are doing on ring-fencing. I believe, as I have been saying for many years, that abolishing ring-fencing as far as possible is the right thing to do so that local authorities have more discretion in how they spend the money available to them.

On the question of business rates, I followed up with the LGA the issues I raised with the Minister for Housing and Local Government in my Westminster Hall debate. It has received legal advice on the matter from Bevan Brittan solicitors, which states that in this instance the Secretary of State has not set the distributable amount as a sum equal to the difference, but has chosen to budget for a surplus and set the distributable amount some £100 million lower at £19,000 million. That is simply unlawful, and that is the legal opinion the LGA has received—[Interruption.] I am raising the issue with the Secretary of State and giving the advice that the LGA has given me. If it is inaccurate, will he publish a precise assessment on whether he intends to budget for a surplus on the business rates and whether he believes to do so is lawful so that Members have the full and proper picture?

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman occupies a senior position and so should know that all business rates have to be redistributed to councils by law. It is not possible to do what he is suggesting we are doing, because nothing can be done with a surplus other than giving it back to local authorities. He does not seem to appreciate that total public expenditure is within an envelope, but revenues from business rates go up and down, so councils are compensated by central Government.

[Mr Betts]

I understand that revenues from business rates go up and down, so when they go up more should be distributed to local authorities as a result. [Interruption.] Rather than engaging in further debate on this, I am happy to pass on to the Secretary of State the legal advice that the LGA has given me and ask him, if he believes that it is wrong, to issue a detailed correction. That seems an appropriate way to proceed.

[Mr Pickles]

Send me the letter.

[Mr Betts]

I will of course send the letter to the Secretary of State, and I look forward to his response.

On the question of putting salaries above £58,000 into the public domain, the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) ought to be pursued. If the Secretary of State is right, and he encourages local authorities to put more and more services out to the private sector, to the voluntary sector and to social enterprise, he will find that fewer people on those salaries are employed in the local authority sector. Somebody with responsibility for a service might be “TUPE’d” outwith that service to the private sector or to a social enterprise, in which case his transparency will therefore decline. So, when services are contracted out, could the requirement for transparency about salaries of more than £58,000 be transferred as well, and applied to contractors across the piece? That would be a way forward for the Secretary of State, and his Cabinet colleagues might like to look at it as a good example of transparency in practice.

The figures on Sheffield are misleading. The figures that have been quoted are for those redundancies that have been announced so far. Many vacancies in Sheffield are being held unfilled, and they are going to affect services. We know of several hundred posts that will not be filled by one means or other, and we also suspect that the Lib Dem administration there is trying to delay and avoid decisions, waiting to pass them on to the new Labour administration that will take office in May. The budget has not yet been finalised, however, so no one can quote a figure of 250. Several hundred jobs are likely to be lost as a result of the budget—many times the figure given today.

There are real problems with the settlement, but the fundamental question that comes across from local councils and the Local Government Association is, “Why are the cuts front-loaded?” Can the Government please provide an explanation? That fundamental problem is causing chaos in local authorities and massive cuts to services throughout the country.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 17th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point. In fairness to the European Commission, it also recognises the problem and is undertaking a comprehensive evaluation of public procurement legislation. I also know that the Local Government Association feels strongly on that; its snappily titled, “The impact of EU procurement legislation on councils”, highlights the specific difficulties faced by local councils. I agree with the LGA and the EU. I met Commissioner Hahn last summer and urged him to ensure that a similar light-touch approach is taken to the administration of the European regional development fund.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Localism Bill, which we will discuss later, has more than 140 new order-making powers for the Secretary of State. Is not that the Government saying that there will be new freedoms and powers for local communities and then being very prescriptive about how they should operate? Why is it necessary to have among those new orders and powers a raft of regulations imposing non-elected mayors on places such as Sheffield, where there is no demand for them from either the council or the public?

[Mr Pickles]

I do not recall the hon. Gentleman making those points about the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007, which contained a much smaller number of clauses and yet had 87 pieces of regulation. What we are doing is entirely necessary to liberate local government from the hand of central Government and is deregulatory by nature. As a friend of local government, he should be congratulating us and perhaps showing some contrition for his failure over the 2007 Act.

Local Government Finance

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Monday 13th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

We are all paying a great deal of attention to the squeezed middle, not least those on the Opposition Benches. One of the consequences of our decision to put substantial moneys into adult social care, as well as the move-across on the bus grant, is that the district councils, by proportion, received a much smaller amount. That is why we put in some additional sums of money in order to protect them. I think that middle England is safe with the coalition.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is right that local government was fearful of the up-front nature of the cuts, which is still there, and the disparities in the cuts, particularly in that they most adversely affect those authorities with the highest level of grant. Will he therefore produce figures comparing not only grant settlements year on year but total spending levels, including council tax, authority by authority? Although he says that the highest cuts in total spending power reduction will be 9%, if the average is 4.4%, does that not mean that some authorities will get no cuts at all, or even perhaps a small increase?

[Mr Pickles]

I believe that Dorset gets a 0.1% increase in its financing; I hope that it will not go mad and squander that additional sum of money. I do not think that any place in England is seeing an increase, when the fact that district councils are receiving a considerably greater reduction in their spending power is taken into consideration. The hon. Gentleman may have seen the bundle of documents that I have here, which include lots of things explaining exactly how we have done this. I commend to him the straightforward calculation on pages 55 to 56, which explains precisely and exactly how the figures have been worked out.

Audit Commission

Debate between Clive Betts and Lord Pickles

Tuesday 7th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will make a statement on his intention to abolish the Audit Commission.

[The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)]

On 13 August, I announced plans to disband the Audit Commission and to refocus audit on helping local people to hold councils and local public bodies to account for local spending decisions. Those changes will pass power down to people, replace bureaucratic accountability with democratic accountability and save the taxpayer £50 million a year.

Earlier that day, I spoke to the commission’s chairman, Michael O’Higgins, informing him of my decision. I also informed him that I intended to invite Lord Adebowale of Thornes and Bharat Shah to serve a second term as members of the commission. As we have announced today, I am pleased to confirm that they have agreed to continue to serve, with Bharat Shah as deputy chairman. As I have also announced today, further commissioners will be recruited to the board through open competition to bring in new private sector expertise, as the commission focuses on the changes that I have announced.

These changes mean that the commission’s responsibilities for overseeing and delivering local audits stop. Its research activities will end. Its in-house audit practice will be moved to the private sector, and we will consider a range of options for doing that. Councils will be free to appoint their own independent external auditors from a more competitive and open market. There will be new audit arrangements for local health bodies. All local audits will be regulated within a statutory framework, overseen by the National Audit Office and the profession.

With the ending of the inspection regime of comprehensive area assessment, many of the Audit Commission’s functions have disappeared. While its corporate centre may have lost its way, the well-respected in-house audit practice has consistently done a good job, and it is to protect the future and to increase competition in auditing that we seek to put it into the private sector. The Government are happy to see a mutual set up by existing staff. My intention is that those arrangements will be in place from 2012-13, which involves introducing legislation this Session.

We will now work closely with local government, the health sector, the commission, the accounting profession and other partners to complete the detailed design of the new arrangements, and to take forward, in the most effective way, the transfer of the commission’s in-house audit practice to the private sector.

[Mr Betts]

I thank the Secretary of State for his response, but I am not sure that I am any clearer about the precise reasons for his decision. First, may I ask why it was necessary to announce this decision in the middle of the recess, rather than coming to the House and making a statement? There did not seem to be any particular time imperative. Will he place in the Library of the House all the detailed papers that he must have gone through showing how he came to his decision? Presumably it was not a rushed one, or a knee-jerk reaction.

As for the annual audit function, does the Secretary of State believe that the private sector has the capacity to carry it out at the same cost as the district audit service? If business is transferred to the private sector, will there be a return to the public purse? Value-for-money studies are not, as he tried to make out, some attempt to dictate to local authorities, but an important way of making comparisons between authorities, which are useful to the authorities and to the electorate in holding them to account. Who will undertake those studies in future? Finally, if the Secretary of State really believes in localism, why did he not consult local councils and the Local Government Association before announcing his decision?

[Mr Pickles]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s questions and, indeed, I look forward eagerly to meeting him and his Committee next Monday to go through this in a more discursive way.

Of course I think there is plenty of capacity to deal with this. After all, the Audit Commission is the fifth-largest accounting practice in the country. The hon. Gentleman will readily understand that the Audit Commission was thinking along identical lines, and had already begun to engage in discussions with some of the larger practices regarding a potential sale, long before I talked to the chairman.

Do I think that going to private practice will operate at the same level of audit fees as currently? The answer is no. I expect it to be a lot cheaper. After all, audit fees have doubled in the past 13 years. With regard to the value-for-money practices and services, in the past the Audit Commission performed a very useful function. When it started out, it was virtually alone in doing that, but now there are many organisations providing those services, not least the National Audit Office. We should not be duplicating such reports.