Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting)

Clive Betts Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We are now sitting in public and proceedings are being broadcast. I remind all Members to switch their electronic devices to silent. We now resume line-by-line consideration of the Bill.

Schedule 4

Threshold Requirements

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 14, in schedule 4, page 98, line 20, at end insert—

“(d) the home ground threshold requirement (see paragraph 4A)”

See explanatory statement for Amendment 15.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 15, schedule 4, page 99, line 41, at end insert—

“Home ground

4A (1) The home ground threshold requirement is met, in relation to a club, if the club—

(a) has security of tenure over a home ground for at least the minimum period; and

(b) the home ground is suitable for the club's use for footballing purposes.

(2) In subsection (1)(a), the minimum period is 20 years, or such other period as the IFR may determine in respect of a particular club (where there are compelling reasons why it should be shortened).

(3) In determining whether subsection (1)(b) is satisfied in respect of a club, the IFR shall have regard to the specified competition and league in which a club plays and whether the facilities satisfy the requirements set out by the relevant competition organiser(s), as well as any other factors that it deems relevant.

(4) In this paragraph 5, “home ground” shall have the meaning given to it in section 46(10)(a).”

This amendment specifies what constitutes the home ground threshold requirement.

[Mr Betts]

It is a pleasure to be back with you in the Chair, Sir Jeremy.

This might be termed the Dejphon Chansiri clause—though there are a number of those as we go through the Bill, and they could also apply to other owners of football clubs who have over the years behaved in ways that we might find unacceptable.

Within the Bill—and credit to my hon. Friend the Minister for this—there are clear requirements for clubs wanting to move grounds to properly consult and demonstrate that there are good footballing reasons to do so. There will occasionally be good reasons, when clubs should move as it is in their commercial and footballing interests to do so.

The problem with the Bill as it stands, however, which I have talked to my hon. Friend about on a number of occasions—she is probably fed up of hearing me on the subject—is where the owner has divested the ground separate from ownership of the club. The ownership of the ground is often therefore in a different place and with a different company. It is often, as in the case of Sheffield Wednesday, owned by the same person as the club, but in a different format, so the club could be sold but could be left with no ground.

There probably would not be many people who would want to buy a club in that situation, but we can see the possibilities for owners who do not have the best intentions to do things that are not acceptable. That has been starkly illustrated in the last two weeks, as supporters at Hillsborough have got angrier and angrier with the chairman and he has now gone on record on social media to say, “If you keep on protesting, I can find better things to do with this ground and make more money by building a supermarket or housing”. He has actually put that in writing and said it, so I think we have to cover off those situations. With Sheffield Wednesday, I think the club has a lease on the ground and he would be legally challenged if he tried to do that, but the fact is that owners will try many things to maximise their personal financial interests.

Coming back to the content and intention of the Bill, it is right we are going to have a licensing system; we will come on to that in more detail in due course. The intention is that to get a licence, the owner has to show that they are a fit and proper person and demonstrate that they can run the club financially. If it is proper that the owner has to show that they have the financial resources to run the club, surely they need to show that they have a ground to play on. This amendment is almost as simple as that.

The English Football League rules as they are partly cover this issue, because the EFL requires clubs to demonstrate they have the 20-year use of a ground as part of their conditions. There is an overlap between what the regulator’s powers are going to be and what the leagues do, but we want to make sure there are no gaps and that we cover off those with bad intentions. I am sure Mr Chansiri has the best of intentions—perhaps for himself and his family, I hasten to add—but nevertheless it is also true of clubs like Derby and Charlton and others, and we have seen in the past the sad case of Wimbledon, having to move halfway across the country because the owners got rid of their ground, Plough Lane.

We saw Brighton wandering homeless around the country for many years when the Goldstone Ground, which I remember going to several times, was sold for a supermarket there. Mr Chansiri is obviously following in those footsteps. That left the club in an awful situation. Let us not go there again; let us anticipate what might go wrong and put measures in place to stop it. That is what I am trying to do with my amendments. Even if the Minister cannot accept the precise wording, I hope that she will, at least, understand and recognise the problems that could exist, which need addressing at this stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Stephanie Peacock)]

It is a pleasure to once again serve under your chairship, Sir Jeremy. I look forward to day three of Committee. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East for the amendments; I am never fed up of hearing from him and I know he is very passionate about this issue.

The Government recognise the intent behind the amendments to ensure that football continues to be played at a club’s home ground. The Bill already has a number of strong protections to safeguard home grounds against reckless sales or ill-thought-out relocations. I will respond to a couple of points made in the debate and will then outline why we will not be accepting the amendments.

Fan consultation was mentioned. Clubs must consult their fans on any plans to change or move their home ground as per the fan engagement threshold condition. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup, made an important point about how it will sometimes be necessary for clubs to relocate their home ground, for a number of reasons, such as the ground being too small, facilities no longer working or the ground being sold. We recognise that we need flexibility in that approach, but fans will have a say.

For clubs that do not own their stadium or have already sold the stadium, due to the scope of the Bill and existing property law, it is not always possible for home grounds that are not owned by the club to have the same protections as home grounds that are. This point was recognised in the fan-led review. However, alongside the fan engagement requirements, there are also protections under the national planning policy framework for sports grounds and existing assets of community value, and there is work under this Government, as well as an ongoing Law Commission review of security of tenure that has the scope to address sports grounds. Those powers will all work alongside the soft powers and levers of the regulator to look to protect home grounds, as far as possible.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East also referred to the fact that leagues have requirements for tenure, and clubs are prevented from entering the league if they do not meet them. Leagues also have enforceable standards regarding the quality of the grounds. These vary from league to league and can get into the specifics of grass length on matchdays, for example. Given those requirements, we do not feel it is necessary for the regulator to duplicate rules. Instead, it will work alongside the leagues.

It should be noted that clubs may not own their home grounds—I have responded on that point—and therefore they would require the agreement of their landlord to meet the additional licensing requirement we believe that the amendments would lead to. These amendments would place a requirement on clubs to guarantee something that may not be within their control, as well as duplicating pre-existing league requirements for home grounds.

We recognise that the fan-led review recommended that the Government explore the viability of introducing security of tenure property rights for football clubs. I hope I have explained why we do not feel we can do that.

The Law Commission is now in the process of reviewing the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954, including an assessment of security of tenure for all commercial properties, including football clubs. Following the review, the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government will consider the recommendations and publish a full response.

For those reasons, I am not able to accept my hon. Friend’s amendments and would ask that he withdraws them.

[Mr Betts]

I am still not quite sure why my amendments would cause so many problems. I understand the difficulty where a club does not actually own the ground but leases it, but the amendment is about security of tenure. There does not have to be ownership; it could be a secure lease, as the English Football League requires, for a 20-year period. That is implied by the amendment.

I was not quite sure what the Minister was saying about how the review by the Law Commission and implementation by MHCLG Ministers would secure the position for football clubs, and what else is being looked at in terms of the planning framework. Is she able to say any more on those points to get on the record what further safeguards might be in place?

[Stephanie Peacock]

On the point in the amendments about 20 years, we appreciate that not all the leagues go that far, but we think that the point is addressed by the league rules. On the consultation by MHCLG, it might be helpful if I ask my counterpart there to write to my hon. Friend and to share that letter with the Committee, because that ongoing work falls in that Department.

[Mr Betts]

The Minister often completely convinces me—on this occasion, she goes a little way towards being convincing. I want to read what MHCLG is going to say. In the end, it is not how we do it, but what we achieve in terms of the safety and security of grounds for the fans. That is what this is about. If what MHCLG is going to do moves us in that direction, as the Minister indicates it will, I am happy to await that correspondence from it before pushing this further. I hope that we can get a response from MHCLG Ministers before Report—if the Minister could encourage them to write in that time period, it would be helpful.

[Stephanie Peacock]

It is a disappointment that I am not able to convince my hon. Friend fully. Not all of what he asks is in my gift, but I commit to the Committee that I will do my very best to get a response from the Department before Report, and if possible earlier.

[Mr Betts]

On that basis, with the Minister going as far as she can this morning, I am happy not to press the amendment. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Mr French]

I beg to move amendment 104, in schedule 4, page 99, line 31, at end insert—

“(f) the club’s political statements and positions.”

This amendment ensures that clubs have to engage their fans on the political statements a club might adopt.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr French]

The hon. Lady’s comments are on the record, and I will have a look—I was not aware of those.

[Mr Betts]

This is a serious point, because football is about our communities. It reflects what goes on in our communities and tries to improve it. Football has a very good record of tackling racism in this country, right from the top, with the Football Association and the leagues, through to the clubs. Young kids walk on the pitch and there are “kick racism out of football” banners, and football has done good work on homophobia as well. Is the shadow Minister saying that all those matters should be put to a club’s fans in a referendum, or would we expect a club to do those things as a matter of good practice?

[Mr French]

I completely appreciate the hon. Member’s point. As he highlighted, clubs have done a lot of this good work themselves, so I do not believe that the Government or their regulator need to dictate on terms where clubs have that good practice already. My new clause tries to draw a line so that fans will have a say on any such issues and, in particular, on contentious ones. I do not personally believe that kicking racism out of football is a contentious issue. The vast majority of fans would absolutely support that, and have supported for many years the work that that campaign has done.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Betts]

On a general point, when we talk about fans and fan groups, who defines who they are and the relevant ones? That is a really important point. Coming back to our club, Sheffield Wednesday, we have more than 20 different fan groups. That is also true of other clubs. Talk to the EFL, because it often struggles to engage or know who actually represents fans, as opposed to two or three people who have got together to name themselves as a group. How are we going to deal with that? As fans become an integral part of the process, who decides who the relevant groups are?

[Stephanie Peacock]

I appreciate that point. We will come on to discuss that in relation to schedule 5, and I will give a fuller response then.

Question put and agreed to.

Schedule 4 accordingly agreed to.

Clause 19

revocation and cessation of operating licence

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephanie Peacock]

I appreciate the shadow Minister’s comments. I will address them in detail when we come to the relevant debate.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 20 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 5

Mandatory Licence Conditions

[Mr Betts]

I beg to move amendment 7, in schedule 5, page 100, line 19, at end insert “(e) an enforcement condition.”

See explanatory statement for Amendment 8.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 8, in schedule 5, page 103, line 16, at end insert—

“Enforcement

11A An enforcement condition is a condition requiring a club to incorporate and maintain within its Articles of Association (or equivalent constitutional document) provisions which—

(a) require any person in respect of whom the Regulator makes an order under section 43 to—

(i) transfer the shares and/or voting rights which are held, directly or indirectly, in the club by that person (or by the trustees or members referred to in paragraph 2(5)(a) of Part 1 of Schedule 1),

(ii) terminate that person's right (or that of the trustees or members referred to in paragraph 2(5)(a) of Part 1 of Schedule 1) to exercise, or cease to exercise, significant influence or control over the activities of the club, and

(iii) terminate that person's right (or that of the trustees or members referred to in paragraph 2(5)(a) of Part 1 of Schedule 1) to appoint or remove an officer of the club, and

(b) empower any director of the club, or any trustee appointed by virtue of an order under section 43, to complete, execute and deliver in the name of, and as agent and attorney on behalf of, the person referred to in paragraph 13(a) (or the trustees or members referred to in paragraph 2(5)(a) of Part 1 of Schedule 1) all documents necessary to fulfil that person's obligations under paragraph 13(a).”

This amendment creates an enforcement provision to better enable the removal of an unsuitable owner. It would require a club to amend its articles of association to include a standing set of compulsory share transfer provisions and restrictions on the usual powers of a majority shareholder.

[Mr Betts]

This is actually quite an important issue—not that other things are not important—because it seems to me that it is at the heart of what happens when we try to get proper ownership into football clubs. It is a complicated legal issue, so I am not expecting the Minister immediately to agree with every word in my amendment, but I thank Fair Game for having a look at this and trying to come up with a solution.

The amendment relates to the case of Reading, a club that have had real difficulties recently: they had an owner who was not interested—they almost walked away from the club—and the EFL was in a difficult place because it eventually had evidence about behaviours, I think in China, that were not acceptable and meant that the owner was no longer a “fit and proper person”. What happens in that situation?

No one who is not a fit and proper person may run a club, so the club then cannot play in any competition it is currently in. That is the point that Reading almost got to. In the end, a sale was made just a few days before the EFL deadline day, which saved the club and allowed it to continue. But if the owner had been completely capricious, and had just decided, “It’s my club and I’m not selling, so what?” the club would have disappeared, and there is nothing that the EFL or anyone else could have done.

I am not sure the Bill says anything about what happens to a club if the current owner or owners were previously deemed to be fit and proper persons, but are no longer. Such persons cannot have a licence. Without a licence, the club cannot play in the competition. There is nothing that the regulator can do, as it stands, if the owner refuses to sell and give up their ownership. Where does that leave the club?

I am trying to find a way that gives the regulator powers—perhaps of appointing trustees—to enable the club to continue to operate with a licence in the competition they are playing in.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Jeremy. We have all seen clubs driven into the ground by irresponsible owners. We have cited Dai Yongge at Reading, Mel Morris at Derby and Steve Dale at Bury, who disastrously led Bury into bankruptcy and eventually it disappeared. The dilemma will clearly be in how and when these powers are invoked and what criteria are used to invoke them. Would my hon. Friend say that this is about having backstop powers to enforce better behaviour by owners who may decide to engage in a course of action that brings a club to the sort of place that Reading, Derby and Bury have found themselves, rather than those powers always being exercised?

[Mr Betts]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. No one wants to see the regulator come in and compel clubs to change ownership. That is not the intention. Encouraging owners to behave better so that that intervention is not necessary is of course the ideal outcome, but history would teach us that not every power or potential use of power will compel some owners to behave properly. This is about what happens when they do not.

The whole purpose of these arrangements in the Bill is to stop the Burys happening again, or to stop the situation at Reading getting worse than it did. At this stage, I do not see where the power is for the regulator to do anything other than to say that someone is not a fit and proper person.

[Lincoln Jopp]

Has the hon. Gentleman considered that, essentially, we are talking about the state seizing someone’s assets and giving them to someone else? If a club falls into administration, the administrator is governed by a very strict set of laws in terms of treating all creditors fairly. Is he not concerned that this power could fly in the face of existing powers for the administration of companies?

[Mr Betts]

The hon. Member raises a worthwhile point for consideration. It may be that in the situation of Reading, if it had not changed ownership, the club would have gone into administration, because it would have had no income coming in because it could not play in the competition. That is entirely possible. It is possible that the chairman could just walk away and say, “Right, I am dissolving this organisation—I am off.” That would not be acceptable for fans.

That is why I said at the beginning that it is a complicated legal issue, and I am not saying that I have the only solution here. What I am saying is that there is a problem that does not currently appear to have a solution in the Bill. It is a problem. I keep going back to the situation at Sheffield Wednesday. We have a situation where an owner is running out of money. We do not even know where his money comes from. It clearly does not come from his companies, because his companies are loss-making. Is he being supported by his family? Is the Thai Union Group providing the money? Is the family trust providing the money? The regulator will have the power to find the source of funding, which might be quite interesting in some cases. We had a situation at Leeds a few years ago where we did not even know who owned the club.

Getting that information on the record and giving the regulator powers to find out who actually owns the club, what the source of funding is and whether the beneficial owner is the same as the owner who claims to be the owner are important issues, but then we get to the point where the owner is found to be not fit and proper. What actually happens? I do not know the answer. I have read the Bill many times and debated it many times, and still do not know the answer. There has to be an answer.

[Lincoln Jopp]

My understanding of the Bill is that under those circumstances, they would lose their licence to operate.

[Mr Betts]

They would, and therefore the club disappears. No one wants to see that. The whole purpose of the Bill is to stop clubs disappearing, to stop what happened to Bury, and so there is a gap in the legislation, because what happens in that situation? It nearly happened at Reading—the club nearly disappeared, but in the end it was a last-minute sale. If the owner had not sold it at the last minute, however, the EFL has no powers to deal with it, and the regulator will not either. The regulator has the power to say: “You shouldn’t be owning the club. You shouldn’t have a licence to operate the club, because of what you have done, you haven’t got the funds, your source of funds is inappropriate”—all those things—but then what happens?

I am saying to the Minister that the whole intention of the Bill is to ensure that the clubs that fans have supported for years, for generations—for communities, it is their club—do not disappear, go out of business or lose their place in the competition they are playing in. Clubs might get relegated, that is fine, but they should not lose their place because they have an owner who is not fit and proper, and does not meet the test. We have to find way of dealing with this, which the Bill does not do as drafted.

[Stephanie Peacock]

I thank my hon. Friend for moving the amendment and tabling amendment 8. To be the owner of a football club is to be the custodian of a treasured and historic community asset. That should be an honour, but it also comes with great responsibility. We recognise that in the past, however, it has typically been the actions of unsuitable custodians that have put our historic clubs at risk of collapse. It is vital that the regulator has the necessary powers to protect clubs and their fans from such owners. We therefore completely recognise the intent behind the amendments—to ensure that the regulator has the necessary enforcement mechanisms to back up its regime and guarantee protection from unsuitable owners.

I reassure my hon. Friend that the Bill already suitably achieves that. The regulator already has the power to require a club to make constitutional changes if the regulator considers that that is an appropriate way to secure an unsuitable owner’s removal. It has a range of strong powers to enforce against any non-compliance. The powers include the imposition of sanctions, such as financial penalties, all the way up to forcing divestment, which would force an owner to divest their stake in the club at no minimum price, directing them to take no part in the running of the club in the meantime. If necessary, the regulator can appoint an interim officer to assist the club operating effectively in the owner’s absence.

To respond to the point made by the hon. Member for Spelthorne in an intervention—a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East a number of times—that ability to isolate and remove unsuitable owners and officers should mean that a club never has to have its licence suspended or revoked. A clubs’ fans should therefore not have to suffer the consequences of bad leadership. To be clear, because the licence is separate from the owner, the removal of an owner will not impact the club’s licensed status. We will come on shortly to discuss owners and directors, so I shall reflect on my hon. Friend’s comments ahead of that debate. I hope to provide him with reassurance, but we will not support his amendment.

[Mr Betts]

Is the Minister saying that the regulator has the power to direct that someone else should be in charge of running a club and having operation of the licence that the club needs to compete in the competition, even if the owner is not a fit and proper person?

[Stephanie Peacock]

I am saying that the regulator may—I am not saying definitely will, because I do not want to get into hypotheticals of what it will do or not—appoint an interim officer to assist a club to operate effectively in the owner’s absence. To be clear, the club’s licence is separate from its owner, so the removal of the owner does not impact the club’s licensed status.

[Mr Betts]

In further debate, we will come back to the issues of owners and directors, to which the Minister referred. As I said at the beginning, this was an exploratory amendment for discussion of the whole issue, which is important, but with her reassurance. at this point I will not press the amendments to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Mr Betts]

I beg to move amendment 16, in schedule 5, page 100, line 19, at end insert—

“(e) an Asset of Community Value condition.”

This amendment adds the requirement to attach an Asset of Community Value condition to each club operating licence.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 17, in schedule 5, page 103, line 16, at end insert—

“Asset of Community Value

11A The Asset of Community Value condition is a condition requiring a club to either—

(a) obtain and maintain Asset of Community Value status for its home ground; or

(b) incorporate into its Articles of Association a restriction which substantially mirrors the restrictions placed on Assets of Community Value under the Localism Act 2011,

and the Secretary of State may create regulations detailing further the implementation of the Asset of Community Value condition.”

The amendment defines the Asset of Community Value condition that clubs are required to obtain for their home ground and is consequential on Amendment 16.

[Mr Betts]

Assets of community value have been looked at in a number of different ways over time. Some clubs are already in this situation because their fans have moved to do this. That is true at Sheffield Wednesday, where fans moved some time ago to have the ground designated as an asset of community value. It does not provide a complete safeguard against an owner, who wants to cause mischief and upset for fans and the club, transferring the ground for another purpose, but it provides more of a safeguard than simply having it as a ground without any particular protection, as is currently the case.

The Minister referred to what the MHCLG might be doing in this area on the rules around planning. Is she prepared to look at using assets of community value to give further protection and to comfort fans that football grounds hold a different status to other assets that owners, from time to time, might want to change for another purpose?

[Stephanie Peacock]

I thank my hon. Friend for tabling the amendments. I know we have discussed this issue a number of times; it has always been a pleasure to do so, and I recognise its importance. Home grounds are often the most important asset that a club owns, so that is why I want to thank my hon. Friend for placing a real focus on them.

The significant financial and heritage value that grounds hold is why the Bill has strong protections to prevent home grounds being sold, used as collateral or relocated without the necessary considerations. Asset of community value status is another mechanism that a number of clubs and supporter groups have obtained for their home grounds. We would expect the regulator to welcome any club that wishes to gain community value status for an asset as another way to protect their home ground.

However, we are confident that the legislation will provide the necessary protections to address fan concerns and keep these important assets protected without mandating this status. Additionally, while assets of community value have proven beneficial for many clubs where no other protections have been in place, these amendments may place an unnecessary burden on clubs. As currently drafted, they would require clubs to either go through what can be a lengthy process with the relevant authority or make structural changes to the constitutional document of a club. Given that significant protections are already in place in the Bill that deliver the necessary safeguards, it is difficult to justify any additional measures for all regulated clubs, especially as a mandatory licence condition.

I really want to reassure my hon. Friend, as I know that home ground protections are of particular importance to him, that the Government have already committed to asset of community value reform in our manifesto, and this is something that the recent English devolution White Paper from the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government commits to.

[Stephanie Peacock]

I am saying that I am confident the legislation will provide the necessary protections to address fan concerns, but I also draw the Committee’s attention to the work of the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government on the specific issue of assets of community value. Of course, that does not fall into my portfolio, but I am very happy to commit to speaking to my relevant counterpart and adding to the letter that I have earlier committed to writing. This is something that I am sympathetic to, but I do not have the ability to make that commitment today. I believe that the work the Ministry is doing is very interesting and relevant to what we are discussing. For that reason, I am unable to accept my hon. Friend’s amendment, and I ask that he withdraws it.

[Mr Betts]

I thank the Minister for that reply; it is helpful in moving the discussion in the right direction. I appreciate that she cannot commit on behalf of another Department and other Ministers, but she has indicated that work is going on in this area. Again, it would be helpful if she could encourage her colleagues in the MHCLG to come forward with that further information before we get to Report. If they are going to write to us about the other issue, they could write to us about this as well. It would be extremely helpful if that could be done, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.