Scotland: General Election and Constitutional Future

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Wednesday 17th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard]

I did not mention polls because I would have thought it is too obvious, is it not? We had 22 polls in a row that showed majority support for independence, so I think—[Interruption.] Well, the poll that matters is the one that takes place on 6 May. I think all of us can agree on that.

In moving on, I want to deal with some of the themes that will come up in this campaign. This is where I will rejoin some of the comments and questions that were made in earlier interventions. First, let me deal with this question—this mantra—of “once in a generation”. The Prime Minister has repeated it ad nauseam over the last 12 months. Sometimes, in some of the iterations in which he speaks, we would think that those words were on the ballot paper on 18 September 2014.

I accept that the phrase “once in a generation” was part of the debate, but let us at least be honest with each other about the context in which it was said. It was said, invariably, by those who were proposing a yes vote for independence as a caution to their supporters that they might not get another chance. It was not made as a promise or a qualification to those who opposed independence that it would go away forever.

We have dealt with who should decide whether there is another referendum, but the truth—and I fully accept it—is that, had the result on 18 September 2014 been decisive and had circumstances not changed, that might well have been the end of it, but things did change, opinion did change, and it is for the people of Scotland now to make this determination.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Tommy Sheppard]

I am sorry; I think I have to move on. I am not sure—[Interruption.] Am I okay taking some more interventions, Mr Speaker?

[Tommy Sheppard]

I am aiming for a time limit, Mr Speaker, but I give way.

[Christian Matheson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he took his time deciding, but nevertheless. It is all well and good his trying to explain away this phrase “once in a generation”, but here is the point: it was not us who said it; it was not even the Tories who said it; it was the SNP who said it.

[Tommy Sheppard]

I hope the hon. Gentleman will do me the courtesy of listening to what I say. I made plain the context in which that was said. It was said as a warning to those who supported independence, not as a promise to those who did not. But it is a moot question, because it is not for the Prime Minister or the First Minister or me or the hon. Gentleman to decide this question; it is for the people of Scotland to make the determination whether there should be another referendum, and to do that through the democratic mechanism of electing a Parliament on a manifesto. That is the process with which we are engaged.

I have already heard the word “separatist” raised in interventions, so I also want to deal with that. Much of what we hear in the coming months will be about the long arms of the Union and how we must not turn our back. This word “separatist” is used as a dysphemism to suggest that people like me are somehow insular or self-serving, want to turn our backs on the people of England, are not interested in co-operation, and are not interested in working together across Britain. It is a lie. It is simply a lie. Nothing could be further from the truth. Getting independence for Scotland is about Scotland having the political capacity to engage with others. It will be the means not of the separation of the Scottish people, but of their involvement across this island, across this continent and across the world.

Let me turn, in my final few moments, to the substance of the amendment, because the amendment is quite interesting, is it not? I talked earlier about there appearing to be a consensus around the idea of the claim of right, so a better amendment might have been to leave the existing text, which was drafted in an attempt not to divide the House, and then insert the words “However, we believe that now is not the time,” or whatever. It does not do that. Instead, it deletes all of it, including the assertion of the claim or right. I invite the Conservatives in this debate to make it clear whether or not they still believe that in the final resolve it should be for the people of Scotland to determine their own constitutional future. [Interruption.] I will not take an intervention, because other hon. Members will be speaking very shortly.

The whole premise of the amendment is to say that it is impossible to consider these matters now because of the pandemic we are all facing, because of the misery and concern that that has caused, and because it would be a distraction. Well, let us be entirely clear about this: no one—I mean no one—is suggesting that we have a referendum campaign during the pandemic. We will have to have it—[Interruption.] I tell you now, no one is suggesting that. We will have to have that put behind us and be moving into a recovery phase before that can happen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

I look across at the SNP Benches and see Members who I consider to be friends and who I have worked well with in parliamentary cross-party groups. I am proud that the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) has described me as a grandson of Skye, in memory of my grandfather Alexander Matheson, who was born there over a century ago. Of course, I am English. I am also British, and I am a Cheshire man—a Cestrian. It is possible to identify as all three, which is why I am saddened that the narrow, divisive nationalism of the SNP has been allowed to eat away at people who, in every other sense, should know better. If nationalism is the answer, they are asking the wrong question. It is an ideology based on division, difference and setting one against the other solely on the confected grounds of limited, singular identity.

SNP Members cannot see the irony, as they sit across from the Conservatives, that they are two cheeks of the same backside. The Tories have become the party of petty little Englander nationalism. They claim to be Unionists, when in fact the current Government are the biggest threat to the Union, as we see with the predicted consequences of Brexit for Northern Ireland and the slashing of parliamentary representation in Wales. The SNP revels in this, as though working in a symbiotic relationship with the Tories, perhaps to promote its own narrow agenda and distract from its own terrible failings in government.

[Gary Sambrook]

The hon. Member says the Conservatives are the biggest supporters of separation. May I remind him that the Labour party lost its voters in Scotland because it did not stand up for the Union as strongly as it should have done, which opened the door to the Scottish National party?

[Christian Matheson]

Oh, so it is all our fault. Well, it is the Conservatives’ fault what is happening in Northern Ireland and for driving the Scots away, because the truth is that the SNP is more similar to the Tories than it lets on.

Today, there are two debates led by the SNP, one on constitutional affairs—independence—and one on Brexit. In fact, they are the same debate, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said, because exactly the same baseless arguments that the Tories made about Brexit, the SNP now makes about Scottish independence. The Tories showed the UK the failings of their own Government and said, “Look, everything will be fine if we are free of the EU.” The SNP is also showing the failings of its own Government and the UK Government and saying, “Look, everything will be fine if we leave the UK.”

In the case of Brexit, every prediction was that we would take a hit to our economy, but that did not matter because we would be free. In the case of Scottish independence, every prediction is that the Scottish economy would take a big hit, but that does not matter, according to the SNP, because it would be free. Both campaigns were and are about narrow nationalism, appealing not to sense, reason or objectivity based on facts, but to emotion stirred by distrust of others. None of the Brexit argument stood up; it was pure ideology. None of the Scottish nationalists’ arguments stands up to scrutiny either; theirs is a pure emotional ideology. I am just waiting for them to roll out “Take back control” as their campaign slogan and the circle will be complete.

[Alan Brown]

I am a wee bit disappointed in the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, because he knows we are better than that. We want a forward-thinking, outward-looking country that is not tied to this backward-looking global Britain. What is wrong with wanting a country where the electorate elect the parliamentarians of their choosing so that they have control?

[Christian Matheson]

I am quite happy for the electorate to elect a party and a Government of their choosing. That is what democracy is.

I implore the people of Scotland not to get conned again by impossible promises; not to be hoodwinked by the mirage of the oasis of independence; not to fall for the same tricks that persuaded people to vote for Brexit, because the same bogus arguments are being deployed now for independence, just in a different context; and not to be seduced by the power of the dark side that is divisive nationalism, because ordinary people in Chester have the same problems as ordinary people in Aberdeen and Inverness and Motherwell, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd) said. If the UK is weaker by leaving the EU—and we are—then Scotland will be weaker by leaving the UK.

It could well be that the people of Scotland have had enough of being ruled by the Conservatives. Guess what? So have I. The answer is to get them out, not to stick our heads in the sand and wish them away through the mirage of independence. So I say to the people of Scotland: it may not feel at the moment like a partnership, a brotherhood and sisterhood, a commonwealth—it certainly does not from where I am standing, seeing the destruction that the Tories are wreaking—but England needs Scotland too. Scotland will be weaker out of the UK, and the UK will be weaker without Scotland.

I reckon that a chunk of the SNP’s support is not necessarily for independence, but is an anti-Tory vote—and who can blame people for that? Now, with the outstanding Anas Sarwar leading Scottish Labour, I predict that much of that chunk of support will start to come back to Labour, because now, with real leadership, there will be real scrutiny in Scotland of the effects of independence and the failings of the SNP. The Tories cannot provide that and do not want to provide it; as I have said, they are now the party of petty English nationalism, and the truth is that they do not care if we lose Scotland. But I do care; I am proud to be British—and even more so because Scotland is such a big part of being British. We have a magnificent common shared history. Get the Tories out, ditch this impossible, divisive, corrosive obsession with nationalism, and our shared common future will be brighter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wes Streeting]

Indeed—and that brings me to education, which is my hon. Friend’s passion, and mine. The number of teachers in Scotland is down by 1,700 since 2007; the promise to cap class sizes is broken; spending per pupil is down; and on the Scottish Government’s central challenge—to close the attainment gap—they are failing. Indeed, the First Minister herself said:

“Let me be clear—I want to be judged on this. If you are not, as First Minister, prepared to put your neck on the line on the education of our young people then what are you prepared to. It really matters.”

It is time for the First Minister to account for the record of educational failure in Scotland, because on class sizes, standards and the attainment gap, the record in Scotland is as abysmal as that of the Tories in the United Kingdom.

[Christian Matheson]

In outlining that dreadful record, does my hon. Friend share my concern that, with its internal divisions, the SNP has taken its eye off the ball for too long?

[Wes Streeting]

That brings me to the real risk of giving the SNP a majority: it is a question of not just independence but ethics and propriety at the heart of the Scottish Government. As much as I have tried to follow the Salmond/Sturgeon melodrama and the serious issues that lie at the heart of that case, it has been depressing to say the least to see factions and vested interests taking charge of ethical standards and ethics at the heart of Government. I do not care for one side of the SNP or the other—it is like watching a football match and wanting to both sides to lose—but the fact is, we have seen the SNP put its own divisions ahead of the interests of its own country. To put party before country is the central dereliction of any Government. We have seen where that got us with Brexit, and with the Brexit decision we have seen that the grass is not always greener on the other side. We have already been pulled out of the largest single market in the world and are now seeing the consequences; why on earth would Scotland leave the most successful market in the world?

In London and Edinburgh we see Governments who have been in power for far too long, with the resultant complacency, arrogance and record of failure. The choice that faces the Scottish people in May is not “Alien vs. Predator”—the Union offered by the Conservatives or the SNP’s Scottish independence; there is an alternative that is led by the fantastic leader of the Scottish Labour party, Anas Sarwar, with a national recovery plan that has the potential to unite Scotland and unite our country. We need to refocus on the priorities that matter. Whether a voter has been sceptical about Labour in Scotland or about Labour across the United Kingdom, we ask them to give our leadership in London and in Edinburgh a second look and to get behind the Labour party. Having listened to this debate, I think that at this point Labour is the only party that can keep the Union together and rebuild a stronger, fairer United Kingdom for the future.