Chris Leslie
Main Page: Chris Leslie (The Independent Group for Change - Nottingham East)Department Debates - View all Chris Leslie's debates with the HM Treasury
Multiannual Financial Framework
Chris Leslie Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Greg Clark
That is exactly what we are doing in this multiannual financial framework, and the opportunity we have to veto a settlement that we are not in favour of gives us leverage in that.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
The amendment to the motion
“calls on the Government to strengthen its stance so that the next MFF is reduced in real terms.”
Does the Financial Secretary disagree with the amendment?
Greg Clark
The hon. Gentleman, characteristically, is playing games with the issue. Of course we want to see a reduction. His position is wholly incredible, because this week he has been calling for a cut in the EU budget, which we all want to see, but when asked whether he is prepared to veto the budget, as we have said clearly we are prepared to do, he refuses. How can he take that position if he does not will the means to enforce it?
Greg Clark
I will not give way, because I want to make progress.
We have touched on a number of themes in the debate already—shamelessness, wastefulness, hypocrisy and betrayal—which leads us neatly to the position of the Labour party. Those sitting on the Opposition Front Bench are the same men who gave away so much of our rebate and who would surely surrender the rest on demand to curry favour with Europe. It is the party that, the last time it was in power and had the opportunity to negotiate an MFF, agreed not to a cut or a freeze, but to an 8% real-terms increase. It is a party whose socialist comrades in the European Parliament declared that the Commission’s proposed 10% increase was
“not sufficient to finance all the EU’s objectives”.
It is a party that nearly bankrupted our country but now claims conversion to the rigours of fiscal rectitude. It is a party whose last act in office was to sign Britain up to the EU stabilisation mechanism when it did not ever have a mandate to govern. It is a party that is so caught up in its cynical political games that it calls for a cut in the budget but at the same time says we should not deploy our veto to secure Britain’s interests. It is not a party that deserves to be taken seriously, as its opportunistic posturing this week shows.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
That was a rather partisan speech from the Minister—[Interruption.] Well, it is the truth—it was rather partisan. May I first place on the record my appreciation to the Leader of the House, who is not in his place, and to the new Chief Whip, for scheduling this debate? Without the Government helpfully timetabling the motion on the report from the European Scrutiny Committee, we would not have had the opportunity to express the view of the House of Commons today.
Our economy has struggled in the past two years. We have stood still while our international competitors have accelerated away, and the flatlining economy has been bad for public finances, with borrowing higher so far this year than in the same six-month period last year. It is therefore clear that all demands on the public purse need to be considered with care, and our contribution to the EU budget can be no exception.
Mr MacShane
My hon. Friend might be a bit young to recall that in 1984 Britain’s contribution to the then European Community was £654 million. Six years later it had risen fourfold to £2.54 billion. Does he remember which Prime Minister sprayed British taxpayers’ money all over Europe, or are we all now post-Thatcherite, because the Conservative party certainly is?
Chris Leslie
The two Government parties have a lot of history to confront, but I do not want to be as partisan as the Financial Secretary, except to say that in a week when 1 million letters are being sent clawing back child benefit, when police budgets are being cut by 20%, when pensioners are having their tax allowances frozen, and when some of the poorest in society are being asked to pay more in tax—[Interruption.] It is a fact. Given all that, would it not be perverse if the European Union were exempt from those cuts?
When times are tough, not only in Britain, but in countries throughout Europe, it is all the more important that the negotiations on the next seven-year EU spending review—the multiannual financial framework—spurn the inflationary tendencies which simply repeat previous settlements plus a nominal price adjustment. Heads of Government need to champion reform, get a grip on the fundamentals of the EU budget and reverse that upward trend. There is a very simple test for the summit on 22 November: will member states just keep rolling forward the EU budget, plus inflation, or can they achieve a real-terms reduction?
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I accept the difficulties with public finances and the sincerity with which the hon. Gentleman makes his comments, but does he regret the actions of the previous Labour Government, who gave up the rebate?
Chris Leslie
The rebate has not been given up; it is still there to be defended. This is a task for the Prime Minister and the Chancellor to achieve, and we will see how they do. The last time we discussed these issues was seven years ago and we are now discussing them at a critical moment ahead of the next seven-year period, so this is when they matter most of all.
Chris Leslie
I want to address the motion and the amendment, if I may. The Government’s motion, for all its rhetoric, has such meagre ambitions. [Interruption.] It is true. The motion implies that the House should be content with business as usual, but that just will not do. A real-terms reduction is possible, but it requires persuasive diplomacy, careful alliance building and, above all, leadership.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman mentions careful alliance building. As we have heard, two years ago the Prime Minister did exactly that, with Germany, France and the Netherlands backing him to deliver a no real-terms increase. If the Prime Minister has to exercise the veto at the November meeting, will the hon. Gentleman support it? On 29 October, the hon. Gentleman said the opposite by saying that he thought we could avoid a veto, so will he now back it?
Chris Leslie
If the hon. Gentleman calms down, I will explain. No one should be fooled into thinking that a veto is cost-free. The hon. Gentleman and all other hon. Members should know that the way in which European Union rules work means that last year’s budget will be cut and pasted and become the new budget for 2014, plus the inflationary increase. In other words, if the Prime Minister flounces off again, an extra £310 million will go from the Exchequer to the 2014 budget. That is a fact and we need a negotiation strategy that is going to work.
Greg Clark
Will the hon. Gentleman answer a simple question? Would he back the use of the veto—yes or no?
Chris Leslie
We have three weeks of negotiations. There is a summit on 22 November. [Interruption.] If the Minister has decided today to use the veto, why even bother going to the summit on 22 November? What is the point of the Prime Minister even travelling there? Will he still attend the summit? Surely the path to be pursued is the one that is the best for the taxpayer. I have explained what will happen if the Prime Minister walks away from the talks—it will cost the taxpayer more. Members can look at the Library research paper, which makes it clear for all to see that it will cost £310 million in 2014.
Chris Bryant
Is not the truth of the matter that literally the only way in which we can ensure that we end up with a less than inflationary increase is by not announcing that we will use the veto and by ensuring that we negotiate all the way through to the end? It is a child who announces on the first day of negotiations that they are going to use the veto, because then the Commission gets its way.
Chris Leslie
My hon. Friend is entirely right, and that is why the Government do not get it. They need a negotiating strategy to get the best deal for the taxpayer. [Interruption.] The Minister laughs, and the Chancellor is next to him puppeting him along in his hilarity, but I say to the Chancellor that this is an incredibly serious issue. It is about taxpayers’ money, and incredibly large sums of it at that. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Mr Zahawi, I am sure that in your own way you mean well, but you are far too excitable. It is no good looking up and around, and at places outside the Chamber, and waving your hands in a bizarre manner. What you need to do is calm down. It will be good for you, good for the House and good for Stratford-on-Avon.
Chris Leslie
I am sure there is some Shakespearian reference about being calm in negotiations, and calm, persuasive diplomacy is the strategy that we need today.
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I do not think any Government Members are saying that we should go into the negotiations saying that we will use the veto. [Interruption.] No, what the Minister said was that he was not ruling it out, and that he was prepared to use it. That is a very different thing. Would the shadow Minister be prepared to use it if necessary?
Chris Leslie
Of course it is a fact that a veto is part of the suite of what is available at the negotiations, but we should try to negotiate a better settlement first. My point is simple: if we go along with the proposals—[Interruption.] Will hon. Members bear with me for a moment? If we go along with the proposals of the Commission and the European Parliament, the Chancellor will be providing significant extra money. Hon. Members need to be aware of what the implications for the taxpayer will be if we walk away, which I am sure the Chancellor will confirm. I am happy to give way to him on the subject. If we walk away and there is no agreement, the budget will roll forward along with an inflationary element, costing the Exchequer an extra £300 million.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend realise that this discussion is almost a replay of John Smith finding a way to oppose the Maastricht treaty? The result was rebellions lasting several years and a majority of about 190 for Labour. My hon. Friend’s measured response of joining those of us who have voted against most of the treaties is a wonderful idea, and the prospect could be him sitting on the Treasury Bench.
Chris Leslie
I respect my hon. Friend’s view, but our goal today is to stand up for the taxpayer. That is not just the preserve of Opposition Members, because I know that some Government Members also want to rise above the partisan discussions and ensure that a decision is made that will mean the best thing for the taxpayer.
Chris Leslie
What an array of Members to choose from. I give way to the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames).
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)
I am grateful. Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the proposal that the Government have put forward in the face of extraordinary, irrational provocation from the Commission is extremely sensible and deserves the support of the whole House?
Chris Leslie
I respect the right hon. Gentleman’s position, but with the greatest respect, I do not think the Government’s proposal goes far enough. They need to set in train a negotiating stance for the UK that will lead to a real-terms reduction. For all the fine words that we heard from the Minister, if he believes that as well, he should quite simply accept the amendment.
Chris Leslie
I would like to make progress as we have a limited amount of time.
The next seven years of the EU budget should prioritise jobs, growth, infrastructure and practical programmes that rejuvenate fragile economies. Building up those elements, however, means reducing EU spending elsewhere. Savings can be made on the common agricultural policy, which currently costs European nations £45 billion with the UK contributing about £1 billion a year. The common agricultural policy is a distorting barrier to trade liberalisation, a wasteful programme that is in need of further reform, and it is astonishing that the Government motion does not refer to it.
Savings can be made on aspects of EU structural funds that represent 35% of the budget and are too often committed in a haphazard manner and depend on outdated commitments rather than future priorities. Unless structural funds contribute to positive economic development, they cannot be justified. Savings can also be made on subsidies for tobacco growers, which will be discontinued, on outdated practices such as relocating the European Parliament to Strasbourg for a week each month—that costs €200 million each year—on non-essential projects such as the House of European History museum, which cost a reported £137 million, and on export refunds, which cost millions and disfigure fair trade.
Savings can and must be made, and delivering a real-terms reduction in the EU budget requires a relentless focus on the justification behind detailed expenditure. That is why we need a more effective and independent EU auditor who is able to examine the impact of programmes on the EU economy. The auditor must also improve the accountability of spending on pro-growth activities, which will require the bringing together of disparate Commission priorities under the auspices of a single commissioner for growth, persistently and single-handedly concentrating on that overarching concern.
How capable is our Prime Minister of delivering real reform in the EU budget? Can he come back with a deal that sees the contribution from the UK Exchequer reduced in real terms? Those are the tests he must now face. We know that his phantom veto last December placed the UK in the margins of influence, just when it mattered most, but today’s debate must be about more than the frailties of the Prime Minister. It boils down to how much we care about taxpayers’ money—money that is hard-earned and needs to be safeguarded.
For every 1% that the Government concede in additional spending on the multiannual financial framework, nearly £1 billion will transfer from UK taxpayers to the EU budget over the seven years of the spending review period. If negotiations fail because a member state walks away from the talks, we will simply see last year’s settlement rolled forward and supplemented by an automatic 2% inflation upgrade which, as I said, will cost our taxpayers at home an extra £310 million in 2014.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has not realised that trying to negotiate in a calm way on a deal that was agreed two years ago by our Prime Minister is the most sensible way to proceed. If he looks into it, he will find that new member states also have a lot of skin in the game, and they will not want us to use our veto because they will also lose out. This is not just about Britain and Britain’s veto, but about dynamics across the whole EU membership. Using our stated policy over two years in a consistent and calm fashion gives us the best chance of achieving real reductions in cost for the British taxpayer.
Chris Leslie
I have a lot of respect for the hon. Lady and she made a calm and persuasive point. The difficulty is that the Prime Minister has not been calm in these negotiations; indeed, he has deployed the veto almost three weeks before negotiations have even started. It is important to have a consistent and calm strategy, and the window of opportunity must surely be to persuade nations across the EU that their taxpayers also want a spending reduction in real terms. If the Prime Minister ends up at the November summit writing a cheque for hundreds of millions of pounds more, he will surely send an unpalatable message to millions of hard-pressed taxpayers across the country.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
Despite his youthful appearance, my hon. Friend has been in this House for many years longer I have. Perhaps he will explain to me why, although the Minister said that the stated ambition of his Government is to reduce the EU budget, Government Members who vote for that lose their positions.
Chris Leslie
The new Chief Whip will have his own strategy for twisting arms and using his powers of persuasion. The amendment is straightforward and similar to the position the Opposition took in July—[Interruption.] I hear what the junior Whip, the hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands), says about our position. It would be perverse for Government Members to walk through the Lobby to vote against the position the Minister proclaims he holds—but strange things happen in the House.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Will the shadow Minister confirm that, if the aims of the amendment are implemented, there will be a reduction in payments for Welsh farmers, and a reduction in convergence funding for some of the poorest communities in the EU, such as the one I represent?
Chris Leslie
No, that is not necessarily the case. I do not know what the hon. Gentleman has heard from Government Members or whether they have been trying to persuade him not to vote for the amendment, but my point, which other hon. Members will no doubt make during the debate, is that there is plenty of scope for savings within the EU budget. We need to prioritise jobs, growth and support for economies, but there are plenty of other ways in which we could make savings.
Chris Leslie
I want to make progress, if I may, because a lot of hon. Members want to speak.
I saw in The Guardian today that the Deputy Prime Minister has made a comment on Labour’s position. Liberal Democrats—there are none on the Treasury Bench, but some are in the Chamber—believe that Labour Members are dishonest and hypocritical simply because we want a real-terms reduction in the EU budget. Let us put to one side the fact that the Deputy Prime Minister, of all people, ought to avoid throwing those epithets. We have been clear on our position for a long period: because of the stagnating economy and the pressures on public finances, a real-terms rise in the EU budget is wrong. We have been saying that for months. The Deputy Prime Minister should figure out his own position before criticising those of us who want to stand up for the taxpayer.
I urge hon. Members to look at the amendment we tabled in the debate on 12 January, which states that the
“UK’s ability to negotiate a satisfactory European Union budget deal has been weakened by the Prime Minister’s failure to secure allies for a more prudent settlement in this qualified majority decision; and so calls on the Government to strengthen its stance so that the 2013 Budget and the forthcoming Multi-Annual Financial Framework are reduced in real terms”.
If the Government had paid attention back then, they might not be in such a weak position today.
George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point on the importance of building alliances. Will he update the House on how many leaders of Labour’s EU sister parties he has spoken to in the three days since Labour announced this new policy? Do any of those socialist leaders support his position?
Chris Leslie
If the Minister wants to resign his seat in the negotiations, we would be more than happy to take over—we would be a great deal more successful. We are the Opposition and are not in a position to negotiate, but we are quite ready to take that role to get a better deal for the taxpayer. I only hope Ministers do so.
Chris Leslie
I will not give way for a moment.
Some people seem to think that querying the size of the EU budget is anti-European, but it is not. For those of us who believe strongly in the benefits of coming together as a community of nations and working jointly in the EU, it is our duty to prove that pooled budgets can be spent wisely and effectively, and retain the confidence of taxpayers everywhere. Good relationships with other EU states require a level of diplomatic acumen to persuade our partners that there is an alternative way forward.
The Conservative party in opposition believed in a real-terms cut. We have heard what the Minister has said and the Prime Minister was quoted at Question Time. However, we now hear that sources in No. 10 are backtracking and implying that the proposals are impossible to deliver. It is all very difficult, but what has changed? Frankly, the Prime Minister needs to have his hand strengthened in the negotiations, and it is our duty as a Parliament to fortify him at this critical stage and help him on his way.
The amendment makes it crystal clear that a real-terms reduction should be the goal. It is a position identical to that laid out in our amendment when we last debated this question in the middle of July, and it is a position that we still support today. It is time for the House of Commons to speak with one voice on behalf of the whole nation and say to the Prime Minister, “This is what we expect of you. This is your task. Let’s do the right thing for the taxpayer and have a real-terms reduction in the EU budget.” We support the amendment.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), who I assume has gone to light her bonfire—I am not sure whether Mr Barroso or anyone else will be on top of it, but I hope that she enjoys the heat south of the river—said that the House was at its best when it is united. I entirely agree that the House is at its best when united on an important point of principle in which we all genuinely believe, and some Members are genuinely standing up for what they believe in—the hon. Members for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) and for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), for example, who are genuinely Eurosceptic—but when the public see nakedly opportunistic Opposition motions, that is when the House is at its worst in their eyes, and that is what undermines public confidence in the work of Parliament.
Chris Leslie
Will the hon. Gentleman remind the House what he said about tuition fees before the general election?
Stephen Williams
This is about a debate we are having now on a budget from 2014 to 2020, not about a position we took in 2009 before any of us knew we were going to be in a coalition Government. This is a position we can decide for ourselves, knowing the circumstances we are currently in. They are entirely different situations.
We are essentially discussing a comprehensive spending review of the European Union from 2014 to 2020, for which the European Commission has asked for a budget of €972 billion. That is roughly €100 billion above what would be a real-terms freeze. That is completely unrealistic at a time when EU member states are under real budgetary pressure, and some more so than others. It would be unacceptable for the United Kingdom to agree an increase of that magnitude, because it would represent roughly £10 billion in extra contributions. Therefore, it is absolutely right that the UK Government are going into the negotiations, in concert with many other member states, asking for a real-terms freeze. That is what is important: the position our Government are taking is in agreement with that of many other member states. It is a position that has a realistic prospect of achieving the success that most of us actually want. Undermining the United Kingdom’s position today will blow a hole in that negotiating position and make it much less likely that we will get the outcome many of us wish to achieve.