Powers of Attorney Bill

Chris Clarkson Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 17th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Nickie Aiken]

My hon. Friend makes a key point. The Ministry of Justice might want to look at what public-sector organisations, such as libraries and local authorities, can do to help support people—possibly older or more vulnerable people—who are not au fait with using the internet. That may be something for the Minister to consider eventually as this process continues.

However, I welcome the Bill and what it sets out to achieve. It is tough, and often heartbreaking, when loved ones lose the ability to make their own decisions as a result of mental incapacity. As such, a lasting power of attorney is one of the most important legal documents a person will make, so we need to get the legislation right. I will take this opportunity to provide my own experience with lasting power of attorney. I am the lasting power of attorney for my father and mother. I did that six years ago when my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s and it became obvious that he would not have the mental capacity to make decisions for himself as the condition progressed. At a point when he still had the capacity, we organised lasting powers of attorney on health and on the financial side. It is important to make the point that lasting power of attorney is so important in both areas—the financial side and health.

[Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con)]

I am very interested to hear my hon. Friend’s experience with this process. Does she agree with me that, having been through the process, it is needlessly complicated?

[Nickie Aiken]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. We went through our family solicitor, who is somebody that we trust and who knew the family. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the process can be long, and, when not using a solicitor, it can be quite unnerving for some people. It is such a massive and important document. From my own experience, when it came to the end of my father’s life, and there had to be major decisions made on whether to continue his treatment, the fact that I had the final say ensured that the family knew that we were making the decision for my father in his best interests. It was not left to medical professionals. I would absolutely trust a doctor or a medical professional to make that decision, but having the health power of attorney meant that I made the decision on his behalf.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nickie Aiken]

I absolutely agree. We never know what fate has in store for us, and I urge my hon. Friend to put writing his will and arranging a lasting power of attorney at the top of his list, and I promise that I will do the same. I urge everyone in this country to discuss with those closest to them whether they should arrange a lasting power of attorney for each other.

[Chris Clarkson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point that everyone should have these conversations, but not everyone can follow up on them because of the expense of, for example, getting legal advice to arrange a will or power of attorney. She says she was fortunate to be able to use a solicitor, but that will be too expensive for some people. Does she agree that the measures in the Bill will make it much easier for people to access lasting power of attorney without incurring the extra expense and difficulty?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow for the second time today my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Simon Baynes). As warm-up acts go, it really is quite unfair to follow somebody so articulate and so well-considered twice and try to look good by comparison.

I wish to pay tribute to, and thank, my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) for introducing this Bill. I have had the pleasure of participating in the Science and Technology Committee and various other endeavours with him. I know that he takes very seriously any endeavour in which he participates, and this has all the hallmarks of his usual excellent work.

The Bill is pragmatic—it is pragmatism at its finest—as it addresses the key issues and gaps in the current LPA application process through a combination of good sense and innovative technology. I was struck by the fact that the Bill passed its Committee stage on St David’s day and it is having its Third Reading on St Patrick’s day—happy St Patrick’s day, Mr Deputy Speaker. I hope that its next stage will be closer to St George’s day than it is to St Andrew’s day, because we cannot wait for this much longer.

The measures in the Bill will help to reduce administrative burdens and minimise the likelihood of application errors which, as we have heard, can be tortuous and drag the process out for far too long. Most importantly, they will ease the burdens on applicants and their loved ones who find themselves in these unfortunate circumstances. As we heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) and for Clwyd South, sometimes these situations can move extremely quickly. When someone is going through a complex and tortuous process, the emotional burden can make it too much to complete the process, leading to the very worst of outcomes.

The Law Society considers these to be some of the most important legal documents that people will ever sign. To that end, I welcome the provision to allow chartered legal executives to perform certification. That will provide more choice and will be much more affordable for people. One of the perversities of the process is that sometimes people feel that they have to commission a solicitor to go through the process and that can be expensive. Someone on a modest income may have financial assets to protect, such as a house, and the wellbeing of a loved one to consider, but may not have the disposable income to get a solicitor. It is wrong that some people may be effectively priced out of the system, and the Bill will go a long way to removing some of the barriers that people have to accessing it.

A case in which that happened came across my desk not long ago. A constituent wrote to me about his experience of a delayed LPA process. During the height of the covid-19 backlog in 2021, I was contacted by a man who had been waiting for more than five months for a decision on his LPA application for his 91-year-old mother who was suffering from dementia. Weary of the process and the delays, my constituent hired a solicitor to complete the application. He had been assured that it was filed correctly. On Second Reading, my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth Valley (Ian Levy) flagged a similar case. My constituent waited months for the application decision while his mother’s mental health deteriorated and she was no longer able to manage her finances or health-related arrangements. It then turned out that an error had been made in the process by the solicitor, the forms had all been returned and the process had been in abeyance. My hon. Friend mentioned that he had encountered a similar situation when undertaking this process for a loved one, and he is himself legally qualified. That is how mystifying the process can be. I too have a legal background and have taken a cursory look at what the process involves: it scares the living whatsits out of me. As my constituent’s mother’s dementia became more severe, she had no concept of the value of money or how to pay bills, and was acutely vulnerable to cold callers and scammers, but there were no protections in place for her.

My constituent and his mother are not the only ones dealing with the delays. I am acutely aware that people up and down the country are waiting for certainty. We have all had the conversation—people put off the decision, as they do in making a will, because they do not like to think about their own mortality. They are always waiting for the next time. When my dad was diagnosed with cancer, fairly late, none of these things had been done because everybody thinks that they will live for ever and will get around to it tomorrow. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (James Wild), “Get that will sorted asap!”

[James Wild]

I am happy to confirm that I will have a conversation with a solicitor to draw up that will next Friday.

[Chris Clarkson]

Being a good friend of his wife, I am sure she will be very pleased and putting roller skates at the top of the stairs after that date—[Laughter.]

The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) made the interesting point that in some circumstances people do not recognise or accept Scottish lasting powers of attorney. As he probably knows, I got my legal education at Dundee, which is one of the few universities that dual-qualifies its students, so I have a particular interest in ensuring that the two jurisdictions work as closely together as they can. The reality is that most people, when relying on a legal instrument, do not really care whether it is a solicitor in Glasgow or Manchester; they just want to know that their loved one will be looked after. Similarly, people move across the border and have family on both sides. I would welcome a conversation with the hon. Gentleman outside this debate about how we can streamline the process to ensure that this place and the devolved Administrations have some sort of framework to allow it to work properly. I appreciate that there is a legislative consent motion for the Bill.

[Patrick Grady]

I am happy to pick this up with the hon. Gentleman. We recognise that the Bill is not quite the vehicle to deal with this issue in legislative terms, but it has shone a light on the importance of mutual recognition south of the border and of people having powers of attorney in the first place. I assure him that we are all working together on this, and there is consensus.

[Chris Clarkson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and completely agree; there is an outbreak of consensus across the House. These are such important and necessary changes.

I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock has made provision for maintaining the paper route, with a fluid system in which it is possible to use both paper and digital. It is not just older people who sometimes struggle with accessing or using technology, although I have been approached repeatedly by constituents who are upset or concerned that they are not able to access the full range of services from various providers for that reason. There is also a digital divide. I represent a constituency that is not particularly affluent. There are people who simply do not have access to the technology or might not have had sufficient training in using it to feel confident going through this process, whereas if somebody can sit down with them and go through a form, they have the certainty that it is being dealt with properly, so I am pleased that my hon. Friend has maintained that route.

The Bill strikes the balance between improving the efficiency and processing times of applications and minimising the dangers of fraud. These circumstances are never easy—they are often some of the most heartbreaking and challenging situations, where loved ones are simply losing capacity and people have to make difficult decisions about what happens to them next. The Bill is a step in the right direction. It eases the burdens on individuals and takes away some of that difficulty and stress. It removes some of the expense, which blocks some people from accessing this, and gives people flexibility and choice. I strongly commend the Bill to the House and thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock for his diligent work on it.