Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Chris Bryant Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 16th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

I would just say to the hon. Lady, who I know has received money from GMB, the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, Unite the union, CLP among others—nothing wrong with that; I am just putting it on the record—that she is wrong factually about the way the last two strikes, last week and in December, occurred.

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

rose—

[Grant Shapps]

I am actually answering the hon. Gentleman’s colleague’s point. One at a time.

The way that ambulance strike worked was that the NHS was unable to find out in advance from the ambulance unions where and when, nationwide, cover would be provided. It is the NHS that said that, not the Government. As a result, the NHS has not been able to put the appropriate level of cover in place in advance. If by chance we are wrong about that, there is a safety mechanism in the Bill for that. Although we are taking primary powers, should Parliament so decide, we have said we do not want to use them if voluntary arrangements can be made. I refer Opposition Members to the voluntary arrangements—

--- Later in debate ---

[Grant Shapps]

I suppose the fundamental point is that we hope very much that, in many cases, we will not need to use the powers conferred by the legislation, but we have seen that that will not always be possible.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

I am a member of the GMB. I happen not to have received any money from the GMB, although I would be proud to do so—certainly a lot prouder that I would be of receiving £2.5 million from Lubov Chernukhin. Can the Secretary of State confirm that this legislation cannot possibly be used to sort out the present winter of discontent? If anything, it will make it far more difficult to secure a resolution of any of the individual strikes, and therefore it is just political posturing.

[Grant Shapps]

I think the GMB will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s pitch for some money. If he gets that money, it will join the £120 million that the unions have supplied to the Labour party since 2010.

I make this point only because it is relevant to today’s debate. We must be here to represent our constituents, and our constituents know from paying attention to the recent strikes that when the Royal College of Nursing worked with the NHS, it was able to provide timely assurances at a national level to ensure that the most critical services—including chemotherapy, critical care, paediatric and A&E—were not affected, which shows that even when parties disagree, they can do so in a mature manner. Unfortunately, however, that is not always the case.

During recent strike action by the ambulance service—this has been referred to a couple of times, and I want to read it out because it is written down—the NHS has not been reassured by the relevant union that it can rely on the current system of voluntary local derogation, which I think is what the hon. Member for York Central was talking about earlier. It could not rely on those arrangements to ensure that patient and public services were provided. Last week, and in December, arrangements were being disputed right up to the wire—right up to the last minute—which created uncertainty and left officials with little time to organise contingency measures such as military support. That is the situation that we cannot, in all conscience, allow to continue.

Ban on Fracking for Shale Gas Bill

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I urge you to launch an investigation into the scenes outside the entrance to the No Lobby earlier. As you know, Members are expected to be able to vote without fear or favour and the behaviour code, which is agreed by the whole House, says that there shall never be bullying or harassment of Members. I saw Members being physically manhandled into another Lobby and being bullied. If we want to stand up against bullying in this House of our staff, we have to stop bullying in this Chamber as well, don’t we? [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. We are talking about behaviour. We will have a little bit of good behaviour for a moment on both sides of the House.

The hon. Gentleman raises an important matter about behaviour. He knows better than anyone else that we have an extremely good system for investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation or bad behaviour. If the hon. Gentleman cares to bring evidence and facts to me, I will make sure that the matter is properly investigated. Of course, we must have decorous behaviour at all times, so we will now proceed quietly and politely.

Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the proposed words be there added.

Question agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House calls on the Government to consult to ensure there is a robust system of local consent, and clear advice on seismic limits and safety, before any hydraulic fracturing for shale gas may take place; and believes that such consultation must consider how the views of regional mayors, local authorities and parishes should be reflected as well as the immediate concerns of those most directly affected.

Energy Prices: Support for Business

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Thursday 22nd September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am very happy to consider representations to the review from my hon. Friend and others regarding specific industries.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

The trouble with announcing a measure that only lasts six months is that local authorities are, quite responsibly, putting together their budgets for next year now. My local authority has said to me that, because it runs swimming pools, leisure centres, care homes, schools and so on, not renewing this for next year would be the single biggest blow to its finances in 50 years and it would have to start laying people off pretty sharp. Will the Secretary of State make sure that local authorities are given plenty of advance notice of how their budgets can be protected for the next financial year?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I have laid out when the review will be and that we will give as much notice as we can prior to 1 April.

Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Bill

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 7th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

Over the last 10 days, the world has watched the actions of Vladimir Putin in shock and horror. The ability to tackle dirty money and impose economic sanctions has never been so important. We are putting the Bill through in an expedited way. It is important that I put on the record what the Bill will do and set out the intention behind the Government amendments. I will seek to be brief because a number of right hon. and hon. Members are keen to speak to their amendments.

As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary set out earlier, the Bill has four main objectives. First, it will prevent and combat the use of land in the UK for money laundering purposes through the establishment of the public register of beneficial owners of overseas entities owning land in the UK, which will be held by Companies House. Secondly, it will reform the UK’s unexplained wealth order regime to enable law enforcement to investigate the origin of properties and recover the proceeds of crime. Those measures remove key barriers to the effective use of UWO powers and will increase and reinforce operational confidence in relation to their use. Thirdly, it will amend financial sanctions legislation, including the test for imposing monetary penalties and powers, to publicly name those breaching financial sanctions. That will make it easier for the Government to act against those who fail to comply with sanctions. Fourthly, it will amend the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018 to streamline the current legislation so the Government can respond even more swiftly and effectively to sanction oligarchs and other businesses associated with Putin’s regime.

Part 1 establishes the new register of overseas entities, which will require overseas companies owning or buying property in the UK to provide the information about their true owners. Clauses 1 to 6 provide an overview of the register, define an overseas entity and establish the register and registration process. Clauses 7 to 11 set out the duties for updating and removing entities from the register. Clauses 12 to 19 set out mechanisms for obtaining, updating and verifying information, penalties for non-compliance and exemptions to various requirements.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Amendments 24 and 25 would require that, when someone is registering or updating, they also have to notify the fact that one of the people to whom they are referring as an overseas person is a sanctioned individual. Will the Government accept those amendments tonight?

[Paul Scully]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I have spoken to colleagues across the House. We will certainly look at how to draft the measure correctly to ensure that it serves its purpose. We will certainly look in the other place to debate that further.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)]

I rise to speak in support of amendment 64. Economic crime is an issue that should always have the attention and concern of this House. It is theft on a grand scale, and often supports criminal networks and enterprises that are guilty of a much wider range of crimes, including violence, trafficking, drug dealing and all manner of actions that leave a trail of human suffering. These crimes may be committed in far-away places or have been committed in the distant past, which may go some way to explain why, to date, tackling this problem globally has not had the support it needs. However, we are considering this Bill in a changed world, where the human consequences of one major source of this kind of activity are plain for everyone to see.

Putin’s corrupt, criminal regime is waging war on the innocent population of Ukraine with absolute barbarity, almost certainly committing numerous war crimes. We have all seen the horrendous images of families lying dead on the street, shelled as they tried to flee during what was supposed to be a ceasefire. We have all seen the reckless assault on nuclear facilities and the apparent use of cluster bombs and indiscriminate weaponry in civilian areas, but we have also all seen the incredible bravery and patriotism of the Ukrainian people, with hundreds of thousands of volunteers from all walks of life picking up arms and fighting and dying for their country.

We can be proud of what we have done to help these people. We were the first country to supply lethal arms to them; we have trained more than 20,000 of their soldiers; and we joined the United States in doing our absolute best to warn the world about what was going to happen, often in the face of strong criticism. While these people are fighting for themselves and their country, they are also fighting for us. They are on the frontline of a battle that will decide whether the world order that has kept us safe for decades is upended. I understand why getting directly involved in this conflict could lead to much wider suffering and conflict, but because we are letting others fight and die on our behalf, it is incumbent on us to do everything else we possibly can to help them.

I want to challenge the impression that people who have heard today’s debates in the House and listened to the media may have received: that somehow, London and the UK have been uniquely susceptible to the finance that has been flowing from the Putin regime. This issue predates Putin. The transfer of the wealth of the Russian people to private individuals took place in the 1990s. That was the source of all this money, and every company, Government and individual that has had dealings with Russia since then has been tainted by it.

I am afraid there is plenty of blame to go around. It was the Labour party that introduced the tier 1 visa, which seems to have been one of the ways in which this country has been exploited. I remind Members that the Prime Minister at the time, Tony Blair, said at an EU-Russia investment conference he chaired that increasing reliance on Russian oil and gas was not something to be concerned about. A number of former Labour Prime Ministers and Members of the Lords have received handsome fees for speaking at Russian investment summits. Furthermore, Labour and Liberal Democrat Members argued against some parts of the original legislation in 2018 as too enabling of Ministers, with the shadow spokesperson saying that it contained excessive powers and was

“not justified by the need for speed”.—[Official Report, 1 May 2018; Vol. 640, c. 239.]

These oligarchs’ property empires are spread around the world, in Paris, New York, the French riviera and Berlin. If Members look at the media, they will see politicians from most of those capital cities identifying that they have been too lax on this issue for many years. Representatives of America’s justice system suggest that billions of pounds-worth of properties are hidden in New York limited liability companies.

As a financial centre of global importance and a high-value property market, it is not surprising that London seems to be a focal point for these oligarchs and their stolen wealth. While I accept things should have happened sooner, I question whether the world would have acted in the same way with us. There would be little point in cracking down on shell property ownership in London if all of it just fled to New York, Berlin and other capitals, so I caution against some of the self-righteousness we have heard from the Opposition.

The whole of the west has been too slow to act, and we can see we are all paying a price for that now. Every time we dealt with this regime’s puppets, we strengthened Putin. Every time Europe allowed its energy dependency to grow, we strengthened Putin. Whether it was behind closed doors, or in plain sight when they proceeded with the plans for Nord Stream 2, we know that ultimately that money and those projects date back to a corrupt, criminal regime that stole its funding from the Russian people.

In the end, authoritarian regimes get worse and worse—they always do. They are especially likely to do so in modern times, now that we have a modern surveillance state that makes it very difficult for the people to challenge or dislodge the regime. I welcome this Bill, and I welcome the spirit of the House generally in getting this legislation pushed through, even if at times I feel that people have been using it to make party political points.

I welcome the explanations we had from the Minister on Second Reading about a further Bill being drafted to tackle some of the wider issues, such as false declarations. It is right that we are focusing on the priority we have now, but that is a wider and bigger bit of work. I also draw Ministers’ attention to the challenge our enforcement agencies will have, and we must do more to help them. They can expect challenge in the courts. As others have said, the National Crime Agency and the Serious Fraud Office often face an onslaught of uneven legal competition whenever they proceed with any cases, and we can expect agencies such as Companies House to face the same. They can expect those supplying them with information to face legal attacks through the misuse of data protection laws.

We had a debate in this place on lawfare a few weeks ago that discussed strategic lawsuits against public participation, known as SLAPP. Those lawsuits go after not just journalists, but the kind of investigative companies that might help us tackle the huge task of proving who owns what. If we were already considering anti-SLAPP legislation, surely we need to put a rocket under that exercise to see whether there is more we can do. I know that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne) has tabled some amendments in that regard.

Capital flight is a key issue, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) has described, and I welcome the commitments that have been given at the Dispatch Box to ensure that the action we take is not too late, but there have been suggestions that we either shorten the time for registration or, as amendment 64 would do, put in place day one restrictions when it comes to the sale or transfer of assets during this transition period. The latter suggestion seems more proportionate and achievable, and I welcome the commitment from the Minister on delivering that.

I accept there may be challenges for Companies House and the Treasury in delivering on ambitious and wide-ranging changes to our approach. I understand that, and I do not say this lightly, but when it comes to making the commitments we should make to deliver on this, the resources we put into this task as a Government should reflect the seriousness of what is happening in Ukraine, with Putin determined to upend the global order. As the Prime Minister has said, we must do everything we can to ensure he fails. If we are asking the Ukrainians to fight and die for their democracy, and if the west has to answer for its role in failing to take action against the Putin regime for many, many years, it is the least we can do.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am afraid I thought that was an utterly shabby little speech.

[Dr Mullan]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Member has only just spoken, so no, I am not going to give way. I think that speech was shabby, because it was partisan and completely inaccurate. Actually, many of us across the House were arguing for a very long time—all the way from 2010—for a proper sanctioning regime in this country. I think I personally asked different Prime Ministers 32 times for Magnitsky sanctions, and I was delighted when the Government introduced that legislation in 2018. I worked closely with the right hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Dominic Raab) to try to secure that, and I was delighted when he became the Justice Secretary, because I know he cares about this issue, and I have worked with him on it for many, many years.

Some of us argued for many, many years that it was wrong to have tier 1 visas doled out to people from authoritarian regimes around the world, including China and Russia, without asking any proper questions about where the money had come from that they supposedly had to invest in the UK. The levels were £2 million and £10 million. If someone had £10 million, they could get their permanent right to remain in the UK fast-tracked, and they could end up with UK citizenship. I think that has led to greater corruption of the British state, so it is absolutely disgraceful that an hon. Member should come to the House today and try to blame the Opposition for not introducing legislation when we were not in Government.

[Dr Mullan]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

No, I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman. I remind him what happened on 1 May 2018 when we debated the remaining stages of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018. We voted on whether to introduce—guess what?—an economic crime Bill to bring forward a public register of the ownership of properties. Conservative Members all voted against that and the Opposition voted in favour, so I will not take any lectures from him on that.

I care passionately about the issue because we are facing an absolutely critical moment. None of us elected as MPs in this generation thought that we would see the elected Mayor of a town gunned down by Russian mercenaries when giving out aid in a democratic society, as Yuri Prylypko, Mayor of Hostomel, was today; none of us thought that we would see the Russian Government bombing refugees when there was meant to be a ceasefire; and none of us thought that we would see ceasefires repeatedly ignored day after day, so timeliness is all today. This is not really emergency legislation—it is just long overdue—but it is timely and important. In fact, I suggest that the amendments that the Government have tabled are more important than the material in the original Bill.

What depresses me is how many Putin-related Russian oligarchs and people with large assets in the UK have still yet to condemn the invasion of Ukraine. It is an absolutely deafening silence. It shames all of us that we have sanctioned only 11 oligarchs so far, or perhaps 17 individuals—there are different ways of counting it; it depends who we count as an oligarch—whereas the United States of America and the European Union have done far more.

In the Foreign Affairs Committee this afternoon, the Foreign Secretary tried to blame me for not having done enough. It was all my fault because apparently I had said something that she had to subsequently retract because it turned out that that was not true and I had not said it at all. She has apologised. The point is that everything that we are doing today should have been done in 2018, so we are genuinely frustrated.

We are seeking transparency about who owns what. The Bill does a substantial amount of that, of course, but we also want that to be enforced. There is a major problem that Companies House cannot even question whether the information that it has been provided with is accurate. If someone looks up a director on the Companies House website, it says that it cannot verify whether the information is correct. We want to go that step further and it seems bizarre not to include that in the Bill, which is why there are amendments about that.

We want individuals to be sanctioned. The measure that the Minister has introduced has gone some considerable way to making that easier, but I still do not understand why we made it so difficult in the first place. We also want the seizure of assets. There is not much point in sanctioning people if it will not have any effect. That is also extremely timely and must happen rapidly because of all the things that we have said about asset flight.

My anxiety is that without new clause 29 we are not doing that last part at all. My guess is that if we have to wait for the Government to introduce further legislation, that will not happen until after the Queen’s Speech sometime in May, so it will not go through both Houses for another six months. If we leave things that long, we will do exactly what we did in 2014 over Crimea: the moment will have passed and we will forget. Our memories will be short, another issue will come along and Putin will have won.

That is why I have tabled four simple amendments. Amendments 24 and 25 say that when someone registers or updates the register of beneficial ownership, they simply have to say whether any of the individuals that they are referring to are sanctioned individuals. That is important because it means that the people who are doing the registering have to check whether they are sanctioned individuals. We might think that they would want to do that anyway, but forcing them to do it means that, when they then register incorrectly, they are committing the offence, rather than the sanctioned individual. That is why that is important.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

The more we can present a united front—particularly tomorrow—the better, so I will of course not press the amendment.

[Paul Scully]

I am grateful for the spirit the hon. Gentleman shows.

Let me turn to new clause 29, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). I thank him for his innovative suggestion to provide a power for the Secretary of State aimed at the prevention of asset flight prior to the formal imposition of sanctions. Members will have seen that since my right hon. Friend tabled his new clause we have expanded the Bill with new provisions from the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. Those additional measures aim to ensure that we can respond even more effectively to world events using sanctions.

We strongly support measures to ensure that sanctions are effective. The Government amendments will ensure that we can go further and faster to make new sanctions designations. It is hoped that our amendments will go a significant way towards dealing with the kinds of situation that my right hon. Friend may have in mind. I remind the House that the register is not a seizure mechanism in itself. Law enforcement agencies already have the powers to seize property if there is evidence of wrongdoing. Such powers underpinned the restraining, freezing or seizure of more than £979 million-worth of assets in 2020-21. We have swiftly implemented the strongest set of economic sanctions ever imposed against a G20 country.

I see the intent behind amendments 3 and 40, the latter of which would have no effect as the Bill already provides that a beneficial owner must register as a trustee of a trust if they are one. Amendment 3 would not have the effect that we believe is sought, but I can see the potential merit in such an amendment and assure the House that we will look further at the intent behind the proposal to see whether there is a workable alternative.

I thank the right hon. Member for Barking for tabling new clause 2, which seeks to place an obligation on the Secretary of State to provide additional reporting on the funding of enforcement agencies. The NCA and enforcement agencies like it have a duty to be open and transparent in their deployment of public funds. The agencies publish annual reports on their expenditure that can be found online. The Government have developed a sustainable funding model that demonstrates our commitment to tackling economic crime. The combination of this year’s spending review settlement and the private sector contributions through the levy will provide around £400 million of funding in respect of economic crime over the spending review period. Since 2006-07, just under £1.2 billion-worth of assets recovered under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 have been returned to law enforcement agencies, prosecutors and the courts to fund further asset-recovery capability or work that protects the public from harm.

New clause 4, tabled by the hon. Member for Glasgow Central, would make the registrar of companies the AML supervisor of overseas entities. We believe that is unnecessary as the Bill already requires the verification of registerable beneficial owners and the managing officers of overseas entities. We expect that that will be done by a UK anti-money laundering supervised professional so believe that such supervision is already in place.

On amendment 4, the Bill currently enables the Secretary of State to exempt a person from the requirement to register in three circumstances. The circumstances outlined in the Bill have been carefully considered to provide clarity and flexibility for unforeseeable but legitimate scenarios. Given that the register’s key objectives are to improve transparency and combat money laundering, the exemptions will be used carefully for evidenced and legitimate reasons.

I thank everybody who has been involved in the Bill. The process has been done at such pace but we are determined to use the next few days to get this absolutely right.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Corporate Transparency and Economic Crime

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

Absolutely. I am not embarrassed at all in agreeing with my hon. Friend that London is a hub of international capital, which is one of the great strengths and glories of our economy. I will do all I can, as I am sure he will appreciate, to make sure we protect that precious heritage.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am sure it was a slip, but the Secretary of State said “the Ukraine.” Four Ministers have said “the Ukraine” in the past few days—

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

It was a slip.

[Chris Bryant]

I fully accept that it was a slip. We will move on. “Ukraine” is the country. It is an important point, because Ukrainians hate it being called “the Ukraine.”

The point I was going to make is that we would have been in a 10-times better place in dealing with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine if all this had already been in place, which is why some of us had been calling for it for many, many years. The Secretary of State says he has expedited something. Well, I do not know what it would have looked like if he had slowed it down because, honestly, apart from anything else, we have world-beating lawyers, accountants and others who facilitate the hiding of all these assets. Do we not need to put on them the onus of having to report their dealings with Putin’s cronies, and should it not be a criminal offence if they do not do so?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s point and I wish to put on record the fact that I corrected myself immediately—having said “the Ukraine”, I changed it to “Ukraine”. He makes a perfectly legitimate point about that little bit of grammar and the definite article, which is very important. On the speed with which we have brought forward this legislation, I wish to pay tribute to him and to Conservative colleagues, some of whom are no longer in their place, as they have led huge amounts of work and cross-party engagement. I am delighted that now we can expedite bringing this Bill forward.

Economic Crime: Planned Government Bill

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

My right hon. Friend raises some interesting and important points. I will ask the relevant Minister, likely Lord Callanan from the other place, to meet him, but I am happy to meet him either way.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am sorry—the Minister is a nice chap—but we have been calling for this Bill for ages and ages. Time after time, Ministers come back to the House to say, “Yes, there’s going to be a public register of beneficial ownership,” but it still has not happened. They say they will do it in the overseas territories, but it still has not happened. They say that they will stop giving out golden visas to Russians with dodgy money coming into the UK, but it still has not happened. We in this country are a soft touch. If we want to send a strong message to Russia, particularly at the moment, we have to move swiftly and not say, “Oh, I can’t possibly comment on what legislation we might be thinking of in the future.”

[Paul Scully]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that—it was a shame he did not stop at his first sentence, but it was very kind of him. I appreciate all of those measures that he wants to put in place and, as I say, we remain undiminished on that. In the meantime, we have sanctions to tackle corruption from other countries. We already have very robust procedures in place, but we know we need to go further. That is why these measures will come, but I cannot pre-empt Her Majesty.

Bulb Energy: Administration

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I mentioned in my initial response to the urgent question that consumer balances will be protected throughout the process.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State keeps on saying that it is all working, but to be honest, it does not feel like it is. I do not think that I have ever seen such an example of Government complacency at the Dispatch Box as bad as this. The truth of the matter is that millions of people are worrying about what their bills are going to be, businesses are going to struggle and 22 companies have gone under. How on earth is that, “Yes, it’s all working perfectly”? Will he please answer one simple question, to which taxpayers will want to know the answer: how much is the Government bail-out going to be in the end?

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s latter question. There is no Government bail-out; the poor, failing companies have not been bailed out—I want to reiterate that. If he knows anything about the energy market, he will know that over the last few years, six or seven companies have exited the market and were dealt with through the supplier of last resort process. The stresses of this particular gas price situation—which, I remind hon. and right hon. Members, quadrupled in the last six months—meant that there was more pressure this year, but the system and structure of the supplier of last resort process and the special administrative regime are working.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 (Coronavirus) (Amendment of Schedule 10) (No. 2) Regulations 2021

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2021 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

[Paul Scully]

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)]

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

[Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con)]

[Chris Bryant]

[The Chair]

[Paul Scully]

[Chris Bryant]

[Paul Scully]

[Paul Scully]

[Chris Bryant]

[Paul Scully]

[Paul Scully]

[Chris Bryant]

[Paul Scully]

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 (Coronavirus) (Amendment of Schedule 10) (No. 2) Regulations 2021

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2021 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Huq. I beg to move that the Committee approves the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 (Coronavirus) (Amendment of Schedule 10) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 (S.I. 2021, No. 1091).

These regulations were laid before the House on 28 September 2021. We are here again discussing another snappily titled statutory instrument after the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 introduced a suite of permanent and temporary measures to help companies weather the effects of the pandemic. Most of those temporary measures, including the relaxation of wrongful trading, expired at the end of June this year. However, the restrictions on company winding-up protections were extended for a further three months until the end of September. Since their introduction, those restrictions—despite also being a severe restriction on creditors’ right to enforce recovery of their debts—have helped to protect from unnecessary insolvency the many businesses that were unable to trade due to the national lockdown periods.

Now that we are back to full trading, following the successful completion of the Government’s four-step road map out of lockdown on 19 July, the signs are indicative of a strong economic bounce back. However, many businesses—particularly those in the hospitality, retail and travel sectors that were most affected by the lockdown restrictions for over a year—have been acutely affected, and their solvency will be threatened by accrued debts and low cash reserves before they have been given a chance to trade their way back to financial health. They therefore need a further period of protections to allow them to do so, but as businesses are now trading normally and have been able to do so since the middle of June this year, it is right that any further period of protection given should recognise that fact and bring back some creditor rights.

As such, these regulations introduce a new form of restriction on winding up companies that is tapered from the version that has been in place since last year. To put it another way, we are still protecting those businesses that most need it; we are also promoting a gradual return to the normal functioning of the insolvency framework.

This instrument replaces the previous high bar for winding-up petitions on the ground of inability to pay debts introduced by the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act—which required that petitioners should satisfy a court that those debts were not covid-19 related—with new targeted criteria for creditors that seek to encourage dialogue with their debtors prior to pursuing a winding up. The new and temporary criteria for petitioning creditors that came into force on 1 October 2021 for a period of six months are threefold: a requirement for creditors to demonstrate that they have sought to negotiate repayment of a debt before seeking to wind a company up; that the debt owed must be at least £10,000; and that a company winding-up petition cannot be brought in respect of a commercial rent, as described by the provisions in the Coronavirus Act 2020.

Starting with the first of the criteria, the new requirement for creditors to demonstrate that they have sought to negotiate the repayment of a debt, before presenting a winding-up petition, the creditor must send a notice to the company giving it 21 days to respond with proposals for paying the debt. Creditors will then be required to confirm to the court that they have sent the notice and whether they have received any proposals from the company, and if so, state why those proposals are not satisfactory. A creditor is not obliged to agree to the proposals put forward by the company. However, the court will be able to draw on its existing discretion to refuse to make a winding-up order where it appears that a creditor is attempting to abuse the winding-up process. The measure will reinforce the message that creditors and debtors should collaborate to find solutions to address arrears accrued as a result of the pandemic.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Will the Minister tell us how many companies have taken advantage of this situation thus far, how many companies he expects to fall within this provision over the next few months, and how he has determined that this is the right process for us to adopt at this stage?

[Paul Scully]

It is difficult to assess that at the moment. We believe that it has helped companies to get through this process, but we are not able at the moment to ascertain an accurate figure.

The second of the temporary criteria is that, in order to present a company winding-up petition, the debt owed must be at least £10,000. For the most part, there is not normally a minimum amount that must be owed before a winding-up petition can be brought, although based on the statutory demand the debt must be at least £750. Analysis suggests that a temporary minimum debt level of £10,000 could prevent in the region of 15% of petitions that would otherwise be presented. They would largely be petitions against small and medium-sized enterprises, which are likely to have smaller debts and lower cash reserves and, as such, are most in need of additional support.

That £10,000 limit also aligns with the existing £10,000 limit for bringing a case to the small claims court, making it easily recognisable as a rule, to prevent winding-up petitions being presented for small businesses and small debts in the aftermath of the pandemic.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I thought the Minister started admirably with the first half of his first sentence, when he said that it was a delight to sit under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. It then went all horribly wrong.

[Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con)]

No it didn’t.

[Chris Bryant]

It did, because his next sentence was, “I beg to move that we approve this measure.” That is not what we are considering; we are only considering whether we have considered the matter.

I have a problem with secondary legislation, and it is an important point not least because we have considered so many pieces of secondary legislation in the past 18 months. I understand that there has been a pandemic but no other country in Europe, or anywhere else in the world, has used so much secondary legislation, which has gone through effectively on the nod, as we have in the UK. The problem with secondary legislation is that even if every single member of this Committee were to decide to vote against it, including the Minister, it would none the less go through, because we had “considered the matter” . It is just a fact that we would have considered the matter. I just wish that Ministers would get into their heads that we need a proper legislative process in this country. We have far too extensive use of secondary legislation and Henry VIII powers and it is time that we rolled back to legislating properly.

I specifically asked the Minister how he knows whether this is the right thing to do. Of course, the regulations say:

“Further to section 22(1) of that Act, the Secretary of State has considered the effect of these Regulations on persons likely to be affected by them.”

However, he just said that he has no idea whether the process we have been through has been useful. He thinks it might have been, but he does not know—he has no evidence to bring before us.

The regulations continue:

“Further to section 22(2) of that Act, the Secretary of State is satisfied that…the need for the provision made by these Regulations is urgent”.

The Minister has not proved that to the Committee in any shape or form. They then say that

“the provision made by these Regulations is proportionate to the purpose for which it is made”.

Again, he cannot assert that because he has no evidence on which the regulations are based.

The Minister referred to the end of covid and the Government successfully taking us through the process as if, in July, liberty day—whatever the Prime Minister called it—suddenly meant that we were all free and there was no need for any further restrictions. That we now have the highest level of infections of any country in Europe and the highest number of deaths due to covid should suggest to the Government that we are not quite through this yet. The Minister might say, “That’s one of the reasons why we still brought forward this legislation,” and that is undoubtedly why most of us would not want to oppose it, but I have important questions for him.

Why are the regulations extending the relevant period only to 31 March 2022? Is there a reason, or is it just sticking a finger in the air and saying, “Well, that feels like a sensible date”? I note that that is a few days short of the normal financial year—certainly the tax year. I wonder whether that is the right date.

In the schedule that will become the new schedule 10 to the Act, paragraph (2)(c) refers to “excluded debt”. It may be that I am being stupid and that I do not know the legislation as well as I should, but will the Minister tell us what “excluded debt” is? Finally, and again this may be because I am stupid and do not understand—I thought that might unite the Committee—I note that the territorial extent of the regulations is England, Wales and Scotland. Why is Northern Ireland not included? Of course, we have considered the regulations, but we are not approving them.

[The Chair]

I call the Minister to respond to all that.

[Paul Scully]

I thank hon. Members for their interesting and valuable contributions to the debate. Forgive me, Dr Huq, for not using your correct nomenclature earlier.

We have been helping companies throughout all of this, and we continue to do so. I am not sure whether I said at any time that it was the end of covid. As I have been saying for many months, this is not like a zombie film where the baddie is killed—end of covid and roll the credits. That is not the case. We will be living with it for some time, hence why the hon. Member for Rhondda is wearing a mask and why we are extending the measures before the Committee. We must ensure that, whatever happens in the next few months, we can keep businesses trading as best we can.

I did ask the Committee to approve the regulations because, yes, it will have considered them, but I want it to approve them. That is why I am begging the Committee—

[Chris Bryant]

We’re not.

[Paul Scully]

The hon. Gentleman says that we are not, and that is fine, but I want to be able to go back to businesses and say that we are four-square behind them in helping them through the crisis.

On what we have done for businesses, which was mentioned in a couple of contributions, we have been in close dialogue with businesses, professional groups and other organisations such as the Insolvency Service right the way through the process of these regulations about their likely impact. Indeed, on insolvencies, I am not sure of the exact figures now, but throughout the majority of the emergency they were at a 40-year low. We were clearly supporting businesses. However, that will have an impact down the line when business that would probably have been insolvent in normal times but have been held up by the suite of Government’s emergency measures start to fall by the wayside. That is the normal business cycle and landscape. None the less, there are clear signs from our feedback from businesses, business representative groups and the Insolvency Service that this measure has been useful and helpful.

The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston asked about what happened within the two-day window. When we spotted the drafting error, we laid the new SI. There were no winding-up petitions within those two days. On what happens if a repayment proposal is rejected, a court cannot force a company to accept a repayment proposal, but it will be able to refuse to issue a winding-up order where a creditor may be attempting to abuse the winding-up process, for example.

We continue to work with businesses on a number of measures. The hon. Lady asked what other support we are giving to small businesses, especially as we go through the winter. We are continuing to flex with, and listen to, businesses. Indeed, once I leave this sitting I will speak to really hard-pressed businesses from the hospitality sector, to listen to them and see how they are getting on. We regularly check in to see what businesses conditions are like. Clearly, the Budget is coming up shortly; we will see what their feedback is afterwards, and how it will affect them. We continue to ensure that we can flex our support, help and measures within that sphere, having had that feedback.

Importantly, what we are doing is extending these measures. We picked a six-month extension. To date, we have been going in three-month chunks, so that creditors in particular do not feel that we are only looking after debtors, and not looking after their interests as well. As I said, it is really important that we get a balanced, proportionate view between the two sides.

[Paul Scully]

As I say, it is ongoing. We will not set a particular arbitrary date for a statutory review because things can change very quickly. We have seen that right the way through the past 18 months. We do not want to be bounced, as clearly happened at points last year when we were chasing the virus, which affected the decisions made. We have learned a lot of lessons from that, but putting in an arbitrary review date is not particularly helpful when we are ensuring that we continue to speak to businesses on a day-to-day basis. On court fees, this is a modification of the usual court process for winding up, so no new fees are involved.

The hon. Member for Rhondda asked about Northern Ireland. It has laid its own regulations extending the same temporary consultancy measures as the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Chris Bryant]

This starts on 31 October. Today is 27 October. How is that providing sensible provisions for businesses, when there are only four days before it comes into operation?

[Paul Scully]

We laid the SI before then, and there is a clear direction from the Insolvency Service and other business groups on the intention of what is happening. The courts are obviously aware of the landscape. Yes, the measures are coming to us for discussion only today, but they were laid before the House and are known to business groups, with which, as I say, we continue the conversation so that they can see the constant direction. Clearly, when the measures end on 31 March 2022 it is envisaged that the insolvency regime will return to its normal operation; however, as I have been stressing, as the effects of the pandemic continue to be felt the Government will keep the requirement for the measures, as we do for all measures, under review.

[Paul Scully]

We have re-laid the SI so that there is no gap in provision. That is the key thing. It goes to 31 March 2022. I should say to the hon. Member for Rotherham, who spoke about debts—

[Chris Bryant]

That was me.

[Paul Scully]

No, this was about the debts over and above rent. Utilities, tax and supplies are the three obvious ones that I probably should have mentioned. I think I have gone through most of the issues that were raised.

Exiting the European Union

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 24th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

That is the Minister’s right, but she has given an undertaking that she will respond at the end to the points raised, so we will leave it at that.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not sure that I have ever heard such a cursory explanation of a statutory instrument in the Chamber. The whole point of Ministers coming to the House, rather than doing statutory instruments elsewhere, is that they give a full and proper explanation of the legislation that they are advancing. Is there any way in which we can make sure that the Minister provides a full and proper explanation of why this statutory instrument is necessary?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I think we need to move on. The Minister has undertaken to come back at the end. I am sure she will have heard the points made by Members in the Chamber. I am sure she will come back at the end and perhaps respond to some of the points that have been made. I really would like to move on at this point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lucy Powell]

I absolutely agree. I said at the Dispatch Box a few weeks ago that the Conservative party was no longer the party of business. The Government are doing themselves no favours whatsoever. I do not know what shenanigans are going on or why the Whips are telling the Minister to speak for only a minute or two. I thought that such shenanigans would depart when Dominic Cummings left No. 10, but it seems that they are going to continue. If this is about curtailing debate, well, I am very sorry but I have news for the Government, because we are not going to be curtailing this debate.

[Chris Bryant]

I was particularly irritated by the Government’s cursory presentation of the measure before us because, although clause 1(2) states that the regulations

“extend to England and Wales and Scotland only”,

there has not, as I understand it, been a full consultation with the Welsh Government or the Scottish Government, and I was looking forward to having an opportunity to explore precisely where we are going on this with the Government Minister—she is the only person who can really answer that—not least because one of my biggest anxieties is that in this whole process the Government’s relations with the devolved Governments have been so bad that they are tearing at the structure of the Union.

[Lucy Powell]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have not even started my substantive speech yet, which I intend to make, but I will come on to make some of those points. Time and again this Government show disregard not only for business but for devolution and power sharing. I think we have made our point about our real—[Interruption.] The Minister is now taking further instructions from the Whips, and I have no doubt that her winding-up speech will be even shorter than her opening remarks. She might want to maintain a bit more social distancing while she is doing this, because that is nowhere near—[Interruption.] Oh, are you allowed to sit that close together?

[Lucy Powell]

I don’t know what is going on, but I want to put on record my huge disappointment on behalf not just of those of us who have spent time preparing for this debate but of all those watching these goings-on. If this statutory instrument is important enough to be brought to the Floor of the House, it is important enough to be debated. I can see that there are decent, honourable Conservative Members who have not withdrawn and who are here to make a substantive speech for themselves, and I hope that the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) will take his time in doing so.

I will now get on to my speech, as I have perhaps taken up a lot of the time that the Minister might have used to explain the statutory instrument to us. We do not oppose this statutory instrument today, because we recognise that it is a natural consequence of leaving the EU and an end of the transition period.

[Chris Bryant]

The Opposition Front Benchers might not be opposing this measure, and there might be things in it that we quite like, but if the Minister does not reply properly and fully and explain the measure before the House, I cannot see how the House can possibly support her, in which case we would have to force a Division.

[Lucy Powell]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I agree with him. I am beginning to change my mind as we stand here discussing this. Well, I say “discussing” it—we are discussing these issues, but discussion in a vacuum is not really proper discussion at all, is it?

This statutory instrument leaves more questions than answers, as we still have no idea what, if anything, will replace aspects of the current EU framework for the movement of goods in a future trade deal. Any deal is almost certain to make arrangements for the continued market in goods across the UK-EU border. Even with no deal, there would still be a number of implications for trade within the UK, as has already been mentioned by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown). We want the Government to get such a deal, and we want them to do so urgently. As each day passes, the uncertainty for UK businesses is prolonged at a time when many of them are coping with unprecedented uncertainty due to the covid pandemic and the ensuing economic crisis.

The Prime Minister promised us an “oven-ready” deal, but it seems that in reality it is anything but. He promised us a future relationship, which included

“no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all sectors.”

I have not seen much sign of that today. He promised that he would safeguard workers’ rights and consumer and environmental protections, and keep people safe with a

“broad, comprehensive and balanced scrutiny partnership.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lucy Powell]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is one of the reasons we wanted to support this statutory instrument today. Businesses have no resilience left anymore. Any money or time that they set aside for end-of-transition preparations and so on has all disappeared because of the coronavirus pandemic and the ensuing economic crisis.

It is important to remind the House of the things that the Prime Minister promised as the negotiations with Brussels enter their endgame, because I really am not sure that the results are going to match the initial promise that we were given at the election last year. A deal that fails to deliver on the commitments made in the political declaration and to the British people at the general election risks making life considerably harder for jobs, businesses and communities already grappling with the economic challenges of covid-19, as so many Members have already raised.

[Chris Bryant]

I used to have a farm in the Rhondda. One of the issues that I know is facing Welsh farmers in particular at the moment is that tupping has already happened for the spring flock. A pregnancy in a sheep takes roughly 152 days, so lots of commercial decisions have already been made by lots of farmers. How are they to proceed when they do not have the faintest idea what tariffs may or may not apply to Welsh lamb, 50% of which is sold in the rest of the European Union, on 1 January?

[Lucy Powell]

My hon. Friend’s knowledge of sheep gestation periods is far superior to mine, but I very much take his point about planning and the need for certainty. Not only is there all the uncertainty around tariffs and the trade in goods and services that we are now facing; add to that the fact that I am sure some of those Rhondda farmers had been planning for a bumper Christmas with some of their lambing earlier in the year, but that will no longer be the case. That is the double whammy that most businesses are facing, whether they are agriculture or manufacturing businesses.

With time running out, the Government really do need to get on with it and get a good deal for the British people and British businesses. I know that the Minister and her colleagues are in touch with businesses as much as I am. Businesses have real concerns that they will not have the bandwidth for Brexit alongside the pressures of dealing with the pandemic, nor will they have the time to implement whatever is expected from a deal, should one be struck.

Presumably, the Government’s argument today—not that we have heard it, so I have no idea what it is—is that they need to bring forward this legislation now, without knowing what will replace it, because time is running out to pass all the necessary legislation ahead of the transition. Why do they not recognise—perhaps the Minister might respond to some of these things in the 30 seconds that her Whips have given her—that the same applies to businesses up and down the country? They need time to do these things ahead of the Christmas period too.

Businesses have real concerns that the Government will blame them for any disruption and make them the fall guys. I wondered whether the new No. 10 internal arrangements might have changed its attitude towards business, but after today’s performance I am not sure that businesses will have that reassurance. [Interruption.] The Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher), moans from a sedentary position. He is more than welcome to speak in the debate, but I see that all his colleagues have withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lucy Powell]

The hon. Member is absolutely right. Company directors who have not had any support during this crisis are particularly aggrieved, and they are part of the 3 million excluded, who he rightly mentions. I know that he has been making these points consistently, so maybe the Minister will respond to that point; you never know.

[Chris Bryant]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Lucy Powell]

I was just going to get on to the detail of the statutory instrument. I have not actually started the substance of my speech yet, but I will give way.

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend mentioned Christmas and the former vicar in me sort of bubbled up, and I remembered all those terrible years when I had to sing “Hark the Herald Angels Sing” 77 times before we even got to Christmas eve; lots of vicars will not be upset if they do not have to sing it quite that often.

Let me turn to the serious point. As I understand it, the delay in getting any kind of deal with the European Union almost certainly means that the European Parliament may have to sit on 28 December. Is it not perfectly possible, given that we do not even know the Christmas recess dates for this House yet, that we too may have to sit on 28 or 29 December? There is nothing in this measure that makes it clear what would need to change, whether a deal is sorted or is not.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order, just before the shadow Minister responds to the intervention, she said herself that she will now be turning to the substance of the matter before us. As much as it is always interesting to consider the history and choir practice of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—

[Chris Bryant]

Not all of it.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Oh, no. I did not say “all of it”—not by any manner of means.

[Chris Bryant]

You don’t know the half of it.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I think that is just as well. That which refers to his singing specifically of “Hark the Herald Angels Sing” is interesting, but not relevant. I am quite sure that the shadow Minister will come to the relevant points before us.