Tributes to Baroness Thatcher

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Wednesday 10th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

I did not intend to speak in this debate because, unlike many here, I did not know Margaret Thatcher personally and I have no desire to intrude on personal grief, particularly that of family and friends who have suffered a great loss. However, this has become a public debate on Mrs Thatcher’s legacy and having heard so much about how much she welcomed different views, I think it is appropriate to give the House the views of some of my constituents and of my home city of Newcastle.

Words cannot express the almost visceral dislike with which some of my constituents regard Mrs Thatcher, so I shall not attempt to express it. Instead, I shall speak briefly about her impact on my life and on the north-east. Just as Mrs Thatcher was a child of Grantham, I was a child of Newcastle, although this was in a council flat rather than a grocer’s. Just as she grew up always knowing that she wanted to be a politician, I grew up always knowing that I wanted to be an engineer. I grew up in a city and a region that valued engineering—making and building things. It was the birthplace of the railways, and it was the powerhouse of the country, with the coal beneath our feet, the steelyards and the great ships being launched from Wallsend and Sunderland.

When I was accepted to study engineering at Imperial college it was the proudest day of my life—until my election of course. So hon. Members can imagine how my heart sank when the Prime Minister of our country said, not long after, that engineering and manufacturing were the past, that the future was services and that the world would be our workshop while we would keep our hands clean. I had no desire to keep my hands clean. I had already seen what that policy was doing to the north -east: the unemployment; the communities devastated; and the lives of men and women robbed of meaning and pride. The statistics speak for themselves: between 1979 and 1987, the level of employment in the north fell by 1.3 million; 97 mines had been closed by 1992; Sunderland, the largest shipbuilding town in the world, no longer built ships; and Consett had lost the industry that had been a part of its fabric and identity for more than 140 years. I ask Conservative Members to contrast the huge bail-out that a Labour Government offered the financial services sector to protect jobs and investment with the brutal, bone-crushing and soul-destroying destruction that Margaret Thatcher’s Government offered the shipbuilding, steel and mining industries, losing those very skills which we now need so very much.

There are those who say, “It was all part of the harsh reality of the new global order”, but that is not true. Change was necessary, but it is the Government’s job to protect communities from the impact of change. That change could have been managed; there could have been a transition and that could have been invested in. There was another way, and Nissan, which has been mentioned, provides an example of that. It is a great private sector success story that has been enabled by the support and investment of central Government, local authorities and the unions. The 2008 intervention by the previous Government through the car scrappage scheme and bringing forward training enabled Nissan to go through a difficult period and showed that intelligent active government is possible.

Mrs Thatcher’s most meaningful legacy in the north-east is the unemployment across the region, but I would not like to close my remarks without paying her tribute. We have heard how she fought hard and tenaciously for the people she thought she represented. My tribute to her will be to continue to fight for the people I represent.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Oral Answers to Questions

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hurd]

No. As I said, we are clear that no one must be excluded from this process. That is why significant assisted digital provision is still in place, and we will shortly make available details of how that will work. There are digital inclusion projects across Government and we are actively reviewing, with partners such as Go ON UK, what more we can do.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

I look forward to reading the real figures on fullfact.org, which had to correct the Minister’s overblown assertions last time. The Opposition know that ICT can make government more accessible and save money, but the Government have abandoned the universal broadband pledge and failed on digital inclusion, so 75% of over-75s and a third of people with disabilities are still not online. In those circumstances, is digital by default not simply digital exclusion by diktat?

[Mr Hurd]

I will take no lectures from the Labour party on wasting money on ICT, because the processes we inherited in that regard were absolutely scandalous. I repeat what I said: we see a big opportunity in digital by default. It is a chance to transform the way people engage with the Government. We can see significant savings, which I do not think have been overstated at all. As I said, we have an active commitment to assisted digital, the details of which will come shortly, and to continued activity to support digital inclusion.

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[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend for all the work he does in this area and for how he consistently raises issues about the British Sikh community, the immense contribution it makes to our country and the respect that we should show it. I also thank him for accompanying me on that trip to the Golden Temple—something that I will never forget. It gives me the opportunity to say, on behalf of the House, how much British Sikhs give to Britain and how much we thank them for it.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

Q6. My constituent Jordan Kingston found himself homeless aged just 17. He was offered social housing and is now studying for his A-levels, determined to improve his situation through education. From his £56 weekly benefit, he will lose £14 in the bedroom tax and £3 in council tax, leaving just £11 per week to live on after utilities. Based on the Prime Minister’s experience of hardship, what advice does he have for Jordan?

[The Prime Minister]

First, the Government are investing in social housing, and the hon. Lady will hear more about that in a moment. Secondly, when housing benefit costs £23 billion a year, we simply have to reform it. There is a basic issue of fairness: why should someone living in private rented accommodation not receive a spare room subsidy and someone in social housing should? There is a basic issue of fairness, and that is why it should be put right.

Collective Ministerial Responsibility

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Bayley, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) on securing this debate. Collective Cabinet responsibility is a major concern to perhaps dozens of our constituents. Hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber have argued passionately that collective Cabinet responsibility is an important pillar of our constitution and underpins our system of government. The economy, jobs, housing, health care, crime and education may be at the forefront of our constituents’ minds, but it is important to discuss how government is carried out.

In his 2009 speech on fixing our broken politics, the Prime Minster, who was then Leader of the Opposition, promised to end the culture of sofa government. He said:

“we’ll put limits on the number of political advisers, strengthen the ministerial code, protect the independence of the civil service, and ensure that more decisions are made by cabinet as a whole.”

I would welcome an update from the Minister on progress on each of those points.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) has said that we must put

“democratic renewal and a willingness to reach out to others beyond our party at the heart of the way we do our politics.”

Labour Members have a one-nation vision for governing this country that will deliver a fairer and more productive economy. The coalition parties do not.

We all understand that although coalition government is not new, it is something of a novelty, and that conventions may need to be tweaked and adjusted. Our system of government has evolved over centuries, and it must continue to evolve. One-party Governments often disagree, so it is no surprise that a Government comprising two parties will disagree regularly. We have heard many examples today, and Leveson is the most obvious. It was the first example of a double statement from the Government since 1932, which was the last time we had a peacetime coalition Government.

The ministerial code states:

“The principle of collective responsibility, save where it is explicitly set aside, requires that Ministers should be able to express their views frankly in the expectation that they can argue freely in private while maintaining a united front when decisions have been reached.”

We have heard that the Cabinet Secretary signed off suspension of collective responsibility for the boundary review and Leveson, but questions remain to be answered—for example, on why the Conservative party yesterday published its ideas for Leveson on a Government website before they were agreed by both parties. The Prime Minister’s inability to answer hon. Members’ questions comes as no surprise to anyone who has sat through Prime Minister’s questions.

Clearly, it is essential to understand the difference between Ministers speaking as Ministers, and Ministers speaking as representatives of their party, if we are to hold the Government to account. Clarity on when Lords and others are speaking for Cabinet Ministers would also be welcome. We know, for example, that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has the noble Lord Oakeshott to make his views known to anyone who will listen. Last year, following the Oldham East and Saddleworth by-election, the Deputy Prime Minister vowed to have more public rows with the Prime Minister, just to remind people that the Liberal Democrats still have a separate identity. As my right hon. Friend the leader of the Opposition said at the time,

“That is an unusual, probably unhealthy, way to conduct any relationship let alone one in a government that is having such a profound impact on people’s lives. I suspect it is a symptom of a having coalition based on political convenience rather than values.”

In his 2009 speech, the Prime Minister said:

“the driving principle of reform should be the redistribution of power—from the powerful to the powerless. That means boosting Parliament’s power to hold the government of the day to account.”

I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, but it is not possible when we are unsure who is speaking as a Minister and when. Sad as it is—we have heard criticisms from coalition Members—setting aside collective responsibility is not the worst scandal of this Government. The worst is their chaotic, ad hoc approach to government in general. That may in some part be due to the nature of coalition, as might be the concerns about the suspension of collective ministerial responsibility, but my argument is that it has more to do with incompetence, from those at No. 10 downwards.

As we have heard, there are precedents for setting aside collective responsibility in the European Community referendum in 1975, and back in the ’30s under the last coalition. However, there is no precedent for the scale of incompetence and incoherence we see from Ministers almost weekly. Ministers have locked themselves in Lobby toilets; they have forgotten to vote, sometimes very conveniently; they have been absent from important votes; they have voted both ways; and Cabinet Ministers have mooted abstaining on their own Bills.

The Liberal Democrats seem happy to put collective responsibility aside when it comes to media reform and boundary reform—that is, when that is in their interests—but there was no such hand-wringing when it came to tuition fees, welfare reform or tax cuts. I do not want to let Conservative Members off the hook; last week, when Liberal Democrat Members faced both ways, one Minister referred on her website to her pride in the Government’s commitment to gay marriage, and then voted against it. The fact that we are having this debate highlights the confusion that seems to be the only constant in how this Government are run. It is no wonder staff in No. 10 wake up and tune in to Radio 4 to find out what the Government are up to.

The most serious implication of the repeated suspension of collective responsibility, official or not, is that it is a sign that senior Ministers cannot work together. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) said when winding up yesterday’s infrastructure debate,

“The Olympics showcased Britain for the great country and the one nation that it is, but that was Labour’s legacy. What will be this Government’s legacy? If they are not careful, it will be dither, delay, stifled economic growth and stagnation.”— [Official Report, 12 February 2013; Vol. 558, c. 820.]

We know the Business Secretary agrees. It is nearly a year since his letter to the Prime Minister was leaked, in which he said that the Government were missing

“'a compelling vision of where the country is heading”.

People and businesses in this country need certainty and confidence in Government. That is even more important in these tough economic times. In the past year, we have only narrowly averted a triple-dip recession, and Ministers still have no plan B on the economy. I am not convinced that a revised ministerial code will provide that, but we need a strategy and a coherent plan of implementation to get the economy moving. The Minister could start today, if she feels up to it, by setting out the economic vision for the country, which would help us to understand what, collectively, the Government feel they are responsible for.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Miss Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about this. When we published the cyber-security strategy we made it clear that there are important opportunities for UK businesses. Our country has long-standing expertise in cyber-security, which makes us well placed to capitalise on the commercial opportunities on offer, both domestically and overseas. I can confirm to him that we have put in place measures to help promote UK products abroad, particularly through setting up a cyber-growth partnership.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

If only the Minister’s warm words on international partnerships were matched by her Government’s actions. In October, the Home Secretary announced that the UK would opt out of cross-border co-operation on tackling crime—cybercrime is, of course, predominantly cross-border in nature. Will the Minister confirm that position? Specifically, will we be part of the new European cybercrime centre, or are her Government more obsessed with damaging Europe than strengthening our cyber-security?

[Miss Smith]

First, I welcome the hon. Lady to her place in the Opposition Front-Bench team, although I hope that the Labour party has updated its website, as I do not believe its cyber-skills showed her in her correct place at the time she asked that question. Of course, I can offer my reassurance that the UK Government are doing all they can on tackling cybercrime, where there is much to be done. There is also much to be done in Europe.

Commercial Lobbyists (Registration and Code of Conduct) Bill

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Friday 1st February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

It is appropriate for me to follow the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge). In his comprehensive speech, he raised some questions about Labour’s position, which I shall be happy to set out. Let me begin, however, by saying that I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) has given the House an opportunity to debate this important issue—an opportunity that the Government seem strangely reluctant to provide, as we shall see.

I am sure all Members agree that lobbying is an essential part of a democratic system. We have all been lobbied, and, as we have heard, we all lobby, on behalf of our constituents and in favour of causes that we care about. At its best, lobbying gives diverse sections of our diverse democracy—groups and individuals—an opportunity to make their voices heard, and therefore makes for better, and better-informed, Government decisions. I am sure the House agrees that that is in all our interests. However, as the Prime Minister has infamously said, lobbying

“is the next…scandal waiting to happen.”

Foresight is not necessarily a quality that we associate with the Prime Minister. For example, he foresaw the end of the Conservative party’s “banging on” about Europe. On this occasion, however, he was correct, although he did not say whether he foresaw himself being at the centre of those lobbying scandals.

During the past two years, there has been a string of disreputable stories. We have had opaque links with special advisers in certain well-known news organisations, we have had the Adam Werrritty affair, and we have had cosy “kitchen suppers” in Downing street. I am told that a “kitchen supper” is a meal without the servants and the silver; I suppose that, to that extent, I have been having kitchen suppers all my life without knowing it. Stories of that kind fuel a public perception that those who can afford it have access and influence at the very highest levels, whereas ordinary people are left on the outside looking in.

Ours is a divided nation: divided by access to power. On this side of the House, our one nation vision is one in which politics is open to all and transparent to all, in which political lobbying companies and corporate interests do not boast of having special influence in Downing street, and in which Government Departments do not summarise the views of more than 1,000 people who have responded to a consultation—ironically, on lobbying—under a single heading, next to a list of separate summaries of the views of individual corporate respondents. I hope that the Minister can explain how that happened.

Only this week, we heard of big alcohol companies pouring money into lobbying agencies in an attempt to influence the debate on minimum pricing, which is an important health issue. Their tactics were described by Alcohol Concern as similar to those of the tobacco industry, designed to

“mislead, bully and spend their way to a policy change.”

At the same time, health charities on the other side of the debate about minimum pricing have seen their funding cut.

Politicians in this country have yet to repair the damage done to public confidence by the expenses scandal. Part of the process of doing so must involve a Parliament that represents the interests, and therefore the influence, of the many, not the few.

Let me now deal specifically with the Bill. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife for introducing it. We believe that some issues, several of which have been raised today, would benefit from further parliamentary scrutiny. It is essential that any legislation does not interfere with, or put undue burdens on, the legitimate activities of businesses, charities, consumer organisations or constituents, and some Members have given examples of how that might happen. Consequences, intended and otherwise, especially in respect of local authorities, must be thoroughly examined in Committee.

We support the aims and much of the substance of the Bill, however. The last Labour Government were the most open and transparent Government ever. The Labour party opened up Government by introducing the Freedom of Information Act, created a code of conduct for special advisers, introduced and strengthened the ministerial code, and published the private interests of Members on a six-monthly basis. When we left office in 2010, we had committed to introducing a statutory register of lobbyists, requiring people to register as lobbyists and also to register the identities of their clients. That is not a particularly radical idea; many democracies have similar registers of varying depth and breadth.

We know that a London loophole has developed for the financial industry. I understand that some lobbying organisations choose to lobby from London because of the lack of transparency here. I hope the Minister agrees that we do not want London to become a destination for obfuscation.

[James Duddridge]

Does the hon. Lady have any relevant examples that she can mention of organisations that have been set up in London rather than another jurisdiction?

[Chi Onwurah]

I do not feel it is appropriate to mention the names that have been presented to me of organisations set up in London to lobby in the United States—I can give that much information. If the hon. Gentleman is particularly interested, I will take advice and will happily write to him later if doing so does not breach the confidence of the person who shared that information with me.

We wholeheartedly agree that lobbyists play an important role in our democracy. Individuals, charities and business must have open access to Government, and that access should not be impeded by legislation. However, that access should also be transparent, and any register should not impede that.

Lobbying is not, and should not be considered to be, a murky or disreputable business that takes place in the shadows. It is in the interests of the lobbying industry to put that reputation behind it, and a Bill such as this one would help it to do so.

I think all Members on both sides of the House agree on the principles and that a register is necessary.

[Philip Davies]

No, we don’t.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chi Onwurah]

With some honourable exceptions, we agree on the principles and that a register is necessary. That was in the coalition agreement and it was in our manifesto. [Interruption.] There may be some disunity as to what is supported in the coalition agreement, but it sets out the original intentions of the coalition, as cemented in the rose garden those many months ago. [Interruption.] Yes, cemented with roses. I apologise for the mixed metaphor.

As we have heard, it is important that we have the right register and the right regime behind it. The Bill goes much of the way to getting us where we need to be. It is important that there is no cost to the taxpayer. A register should therefore be funded by industry and it should comprise all those who lobby, including agencies and in-house lobbyists. Although meetings with third-party lobbyists make up less than 1% of all meetings with Ministers, they allow vested interests to hide their lobbying activity from the public eye. We therefore support the inclusion of a code of conduct. It is necessary if the register is to be enforceable, as my hon. Friend set out, and it is sensible that it be drawn up by an industry council. A model similar to that of the General Medical Council seems appropriate, but these are details to be discussed in Committee.

I am puzzled as to why we have been waiting so long on an issue on which there is relative agreement on the main principles. We are mid-way through this Parliament and we have yet to see any legislation. I read the Government’s own mid-term review with interest. The commitment to a statutory register is there, repeated on page 39, although with no further details about when or what it might look like—a commitment with no action associated with it. The commitment was in the same box as the boundary review. Those of us on the Opposition Benches are beginning to wonder whether the Government’s plans for the register have gone the same way as those for the boundary review. We sincerely hope that is not the case. Whatever the reason, it is unfortunate that here we are, halfway through this Parliament, yet the Government have not introduced their own Bill and continue to drag their feet on doing so.

The 2010 Labour manifesto pledged to bring forward statutory registration. The Conservative manifesto pledged to do so if the lobbying industry failed to regulate itself. The lobbying industry was already, as it were, drinking in the last chance saloon prior to the last election, so even then the Conservatives were a step behind. Conservative Members seem to think the last chance saloon never closes.

I cannot help but draw parallels between the Government’s inaction on lobbying and their inaction on the Leveson inquiry—two industries that are a vital part of the democratic system, two industries that have repeatedly been the sources of scandals that undermine public confidence, two industries untouched by Government action. As with the media, the Government seem to be ordering the lobbying industry yet another round of cocktails in the last chance saloon, only it is our democracy which is paying the bill.

Shortly after the election Sir Philip Mawer, chairman of the UKPAC implementation group, said that lobbyists are fooling themselves if they expect a respite in politicians’ scrutiny of the industry. I pay tribute to Sir Philip and his efforts, but perhaps he reckoned without this Government’s complacency two and a half years later.

I am conscious of time—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]—as are other right hon. and hon. Members. I am also eager to hear what the Minister and other Members have to say, but I have one or two questions before I conclude. I am keen for an update on what the Government have done since the consultation closed. I note that the Cabinet Office business plan commits to publishing a White Paper and legislation on establishing a statutory register for lobbyists by March 2013. A week may be a long time in politics, but that still does not leave the Minister much time to meet her own deadline. Unfortunately for the Government, this is not a leap year; we have just 28 days. On which of those days can we expect to see this draft legislation? Does the Minister have a long-term timetable for introducing the Government’s legislation, or will they use this Bill to meet their commitments? I am also eager to hear the Minister’s thoughts on what a register should look like. Do the Government support a code of conduct? Do they envisage including details of what companies are lobbying on, who their clients are and how much is being spent?

We need a statutory register of lobbyists. That has cross-party support, and in the absence of any action from this Government, we would welcome the Bill and support its progression.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah). She gave the impression that she was impatient for Government action, but made no mention of the fact that the Labour party was in power for 13 years and had plenty of opportunity to legislate if it thought that this matter was so important.

[Chi Onwurah]

The Labour party in government consulted on a statutory register and, as I said, made it clear that the lobbying industry was drinking in the last chance saloon. It took some time to reach that position. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that there is not enough time in the current slightly open legislative programme for this Government to build on that, or is he saying that he disagrees with the conclusion that we came to?

[Mr Nuttall]

I start from the position that we jumped into this debate this morning and overlooked whether we needed a register in the first place. It seemed to be accepted from the moment that the debate started nearly three hours ago that it was all about how one defines a lobbyist and lobbying, whereas I want to start with what is the problem. The Bill’s promoter cited one or two specific instances that he was concerned about, but as always I would argue that one or two cases make bad law. We should not pick on one or two instances, which seemed to border on criminal behaviour, to claim that the solution is to introduce a register for lobbyists. Just as we cannot rid society of theft or burglary by making them criminal offences, if there is a problem with lobbying and lobbyists the answer is not to provide yet more regulation. It is almost as though legislators look around society to find a group that is not legislated for and then come up with a scheme to bring them under the control of the legislature.

On Friday mornings, Back-Bench Government Members will often try to pilot through a Government handout Bill; it is somewhat more surprising to see an Opposition Member promoting a Bill that is broadly in line with the coalition programme for government, although I accept that there are differences.

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[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

May I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) on bringing before the House this morning not only this Bill, but a list of Bills? He is an expert in parliamentary procedure, and I commend him for that and for his initiative in making sure he got his Bill to the top of this morning’s list.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), I am less impressed with the merits of the Bill. My hon. Friend did us a favour this morning when he introduced into the debate the following issue: what problem are we trying to solve? It is no good examining a Bill’s merits in isolation; that can be done only when we look at what we are trying to deal with. Like him, I have not been persuaded today as to what problem we are so desperately trying to deal with. One is left with the impression that what lies behind all this—to the credit of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, he did not put himself in this camp—is some kind of view that lobbying, particularly commercial lobbying, is a bad, grubby thing that should be discouraged. We appear to be trying to find a way to clamp down on commercial lobbying. The consequence—where we will end up with all of this agenda—is that we will make Members of Parliament lobby shy. We seem to be trying to get to the stage where Members of Parliament avoid, at all costs, coming into contact with lobbyists— particularly “commercial lobbyists”, as they are described—and that would be a very dangerous thing.

I will put my cards on the table: I think that lobbying, including commercial lobbying, is a very good thing, not simply something to be tolerated. I may be unique in my lack of knowledge on a variety of subjects, and I am sure that there are many in this House, and outside, who would want to describe at length my ignorance on a range of issues. I acknowledge that; we cannot be experts in every subject. We know more about certain subjects than others, based on our interests and our experience, but there are many, many issues where our knowledge is limited. I have many such subjects. How on earth are we supposed to learn about them? How are we supposed to learn about the different points of view that people have in a debate?

There are many occasions when constituents contact me about issues on which I have very limited knowledge, inviting me to agree with them about something and take forward a particular point of view. It may be a very popular point of view, at least superficially. I like to say to my constituents, “I understand the point you are making. You appear, at face value, to be making a very good point. But before I commit myself one way or the other I would like to hear the other opinion.” If it is not a popular opinion, with no great groundswell of public support for it, that does not make it any less valid and it does not make it any less important that the voice is heard. Occasionally, the only people prepared to put such a point of view are lobbyists, and in order to do that they are often paid by the organisation concerned. I think that is a perfectly respectable thing for them to do. The view may well be completely unpopular and it may be beyond the pale for many people, but it is entitled to be heard. Before people make decisions in this House about issues that will have a bearing on people’s future livelihood, they are entitled to have heard the opposing point of view, too.

Just because somebody is lobbied vigorously does not mean that they necessarily have to agree with the person doing the lobbying. I make no apology for being available to people. I serve on the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport and I make no apology for allowing people who have a genuine interest, and organisations that have a financial interest, in the field of culture, media and sport, no matter which side of the argument they are on, to come to see me to let me know their view. That means that when we have evidence sessions before the Committee I can better understand the issues. It can prompt me to put certain points of view to others giving evidence.

Lobbying is therefore an essential part of the democratic process, and if we want to have good laws in this country, we should be making it as easy as possible for people to lobby us on their interests. We should not be doing anything to make it harder—anything that deters them from lobbying us or deters MPs from seeing them. The whole agenda is going off in completely the wrong direction. Parliament is much healthier thanks to the lobbying industry.

To be fair, I think that the promoter of the Bill would concur with many of my comments and would argue that the Bill seeks not to stop lobbying, but to legitimise it, and to make it more acceptable to the public—to clean it up. If I understood, that was also the case that the shadow Minister made: the Bill would legitimise, not stop, lobbying and make it seem more above board. That is a naive view. I do not think it will happen. I see the merit of the view of thinking, “Hold on. This lobbying is a bit murky, a bit behind closed doors. I wonder what’s going on. Let’s try and open it up, and all of a sudden the public will think lobbying a mighty fine thing,” but I am afraid they will not think that.

In fact, I suspect that instead of combating that attitude the Bill would make those points of view even noisier. If every MP had to register every meeting with a commercial or any other lobbyist—how on earth that would work, I do not know, but that is the agenda in the Bill—does anyone really think that certain interest groups and members of the public who take this cynical view would say, “Well, that’s fine, because it’s now all above board”? No, they will pore over every statement we make and every meeting we have had, and say, “Well, they’re only saying that because they had that meeting with that particular group.” This would not legitimise lobbying or make it any better. It would make it even worse, in terms of public opinion. It is naive to think otherwise.

[Chi Onwurah]

To clarify, my view is not that a register would mean that everyone would think lobbying is fantastic—I would not want to answer for the consequences for the industry in that regard—but that opinion would be better informed and that living in a democracy we want better informed debate and a better understanding of the access, means and process of power.

[Philip Davies]

I appreciate the shadow Minister’s view, but I simply do not agree with it. I do not see where the lack of transparency is. I have no problem telling anyone who asks me about which organisations I have met. If my constituents want to know who I have met—what lobbying firms and organisations—I would have no problem telling them, and I would like to think that that would be the attitude of most of my colleagues on both sides of the House. I do not see where the secretiveness is. If anybody is in an organisation relating to culture, media and sport, whichever side of the argument they are on, I am happy, time allowing, to meet them. As far as I can see, that is perfectly transparent. So I do not see the problem the Bill seeks to solve.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North, I oppose the Bill in principle. It will be a dog’s dinner, to be honest, and will not deal with any of the perceived problems we have heard about. In fact, the Bill is probably the worst of all dog’s dinners.

Let me turn to clause 1, which deals with the registration of lobbyists, and to the fact that there would be a register and the fees that would be charged. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North had an interesting exchange with the promoter of the Bill, the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, about fees. The promoter not only intended to be helpful but actually was helpful in setting out the fees that he thought would be charged. However, I share my hon. Friend’s cynicism about fees, in the sense that we all know where they start off but there is no telling where they will end up, particularly when a bureaucracy has an audience that has no choice over whether to join. People will have to join because it will be the law of the land for them to join, so the bureaucracy can end up charging what it likes.

Let me therefore say to the promoter of the Bill—I hope the Minister will hear this too, because if she and the Government are so misguided as to go down this path, we may as well try to make it as good as we can—that it would be helpful to have a cap in the Bill on the fees that could be charged. Just to make a suggestion, perhaps the fees would be no more than the £200 to £300 that the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife seemed to think would be suitable. That would at least remove the issue of people thinking that the fees would go up and up, in a never-ending spiral, to try to satisfy a never-ending bureaucracy that would grow up as a result of this Bill.

We all see how these things work. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North talked about how such bodies start off being self-funded but end up having to be funded by the state. I think he is probably right. It is not an exact comparison, but we are seeing the start of something similar with the Press Complaints Commission. It is a self-funded body, but it is seen as being too close to the industry it is supposed to be looking after, so people are asking whether that is good enough and whether we need to do something else or get the state more involved. We can see how these things develop, and there is no reason why the same would not happen under this Bill.

I am sure that people will correct me, but it seems to me that clause 2 would introduce the offence of non-registration of one’s organisation. Then there is another criminal offence under clause 3 for breaching the code of conduct—the Labour party created lots of new criminal offences when it was in government and it appears to be continuing the same theme in this Bill. The promoter of the Bill said that we should not worry because everything would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny and approval, and that that was fine—let me say in passing that he has more confidence in parliamentary scrutiny than I do—but as far as I can see the Bill makes no great provision for parliamentary scrutiny. Parliamentary scrutiny is what we are doing now, by discussing the merits of the Bill. It is the council set up under this Bill that would prepare the code of conduct with which, under clause 3,

“those included on the register shall comply”.

It will not be Parliament that draws up the code of conduct, so there will be no parliamentary control there. Once we had passed this Bill, the council would be free to establish the code of conduct as it saw fit and that would be that.

Clause 3 then says, in subsection (2):

“The Secretary of State shall give statutory effect to the code and any revised code by order.”

There is no great parliamentary scrutiny there either. We are basically giving the Secretary of State huge powers to act on his or her own terms and whatever he or she happens to think is the right thing to do. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North, I have a great deal of time for the Minister, but she will know, as we all do, that she will not be the Minister for ever, and we might not get as good a Minister in future. Indeed, we might be left with one who is not as talented and sensible. We might—if we want to be very depressing—end up with the Labour party in government. Who knows what we might end up with at that point? [Interruption.]

Algeria

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I have spoken to the Algerian Prime Minister six times, I think, in the last three days, and the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, has had a number of conversations, as has the Foreign Secretary.

The Algerians have huge, long experience of fighting against extremist Islamism and their country had a very painful and difficult civil war. It is a country where we will want to thicken and deepen our diplomatic, political and even military and counter-terrorism contacts.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

Many of those so tragically caught up in the terrorist attacks in Algeria are engineers, who, as I know from my own engineering career, are often called on to work abroad without appropriate security information, particularly if they work for smaller companies or are contractors. The Prime Minister said that he would be in contact with larger oil companies. May I urge him and the Foreign Secretary to work with the professional bodies concerned, such as my own body, the Institution of Engineering and Technology, to ensure that individuals as well as companies can make informed choices for themselves?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady makes an extremely good point, and Foreign Office Ministers were listening carefully. Some 250 to 300 British nationals are working in oil and gas installations in Algeria. I encourage the companies and, in the case of subcontractors, perhaps the individuals as well, to make sure that they contact the consular authorities, so that we know who is in the country and what their roles are. It would help enormously if they did.

European Council

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has said, we need to reshape the EU budget to support jobs and growth rather than cut investment in R and D, as this Government have done by 7% in one year. Will the Prime Minister say specifically what he is doing to support R and D investment within an overall budget cut?

[The Prime Minister]

I can; the hon. Lady makes a very good point. If she looks at budget heading 1a, which includes all research, university and other spending—out of which Britain, with high-quality universities, does quite well—she will see that, in the last period, 2007 to 2013, the EU spent about €83.5 billion. The proposal on the table on 22 November was to spend €108 billion. That is quite a significant 20% increase. I would argue that we could take that increase back a little in order to help to get an overall deal without harming the fact that this is a growth budget that wants to support research and jobs.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am delighted that, if only fleetingly, the hon. Gentleman was in favour of AV and not just of the principle of holding a referendum on AV. As he knows, we are honouring the coalition agreement by leaving the boundary review legislation on the statute book. That is primary legislation from the past which Liberal Democrat Members passed, but for all the reasons that I have explained before, we are not going to introduce the changes ahead of the general election in 2015.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

12. The Deputy Prime Minister says that the Liberal Democrats will not vote for the boundary change proposals but the chair of the Conservative party, speaking for once using his real name, says that he has still not given up hope, so who should we have confidence in—him or the chair of the Conservative party?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Yes, I have also read press reports that the chairman of the Conservative party wishes to strike a deal with us on boundaries in return for a party funding deal. I suppose that is finally a “get rich quick” scheme which he is prepared to put his name to. Let me be clear—[Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

In effect, when the reforms across Parliament are all said and done, they will be cost-neutral.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

T13. In May, the Deputy Prime Minister obliged my Newcastle constituents to vote on mayors. In May last year, he obliged them to vote on the alternative vote system. In November, which is not usually a warm month in Newcastle, he is going to force them to vote on police commissioners. Why, then, will he not give them the right to vote on the most wide-ranging constitutional change that he is proposing?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I have sought to answer this question as best I can a number of times before. The hon. Lady cites police and crime commissioners, and she is right: the people will be able to elect them. I ask her quite simply: why is it okay to elect police and crime commissioners, but not to elect the people who shape the laws over which those police and crime commissioners have to preside?

Oral Answers to Questions

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I know that this is a sensitive issue, but I do not think that at a time like this, when we are seeking to fill the black hole in the public finances, reopening the mind-numbingly complex issue of the Barnett formula should be our No. 1 priority. That does not mean that we cannot make progress on how fiscal devolution could proceed in the United Kingdom, which is why the Silk commission has been established to look, for instance, at the new fiscal powers that could possibly be devolved to Wales in the future.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

T8. This Government put back Labour’s universal broadband pledge by three years, with the result that we now have more than 2 million people without access to decent broadband. Now, the Deputy Prime Minister has decided that for the police commissioner elections, people will need decent broadband to know who to vote for. How can he possibly justify turning the digital divide that he created into a democratic deficit?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Lady knows, the Government have committed hundreds of millions of pounds to investment in superfast broadband. She also knows that the Chancellor is due to make an announcement tomorrow on the 10 cities that will receive further support for improved broadband speeds, which of course are important not just for democratic participation but for a range of services that we want our citizens to be able to access.