Health Bill (Second sitting)

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th June 2026 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We will first hear oral evidence from the NHS Alliance and the Royal Berkshire NHS foundation trust. We have until 2.30 pm for this panel. Gentlemen, I will be grateful if you would be kind enough, from left to right, to introduce yourselves for the sake of the record.

Sir Ciarán Devane: I am Ciarán Devane, chief executive of the NHS Alliance.

James Blythe: I am James Blythe, chief executive of the Royal Berkshire NHS foundation trust.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Q60 Good afternoon, gentlemen. My first question is to the NHS Alliance. In a survey published last month, your organisation found that two thirds of trusts and integrated care board leaders are likely to need to cut or reduce patient services to meet their financial plans. Given the financial pressure that ICBs are clearly under, what do you make of their ability to become more strategic commissioners and to innovate?

Sir Ciarán Devane: First of all, the ICBs have had their 50% cuts and they are in the middle of reorienting themselves and joining up, so there has been a degree of distraction. The second thing, though, is the idea that the ICBs should be strategic commissioners, working well to commission plans that genuinely reform services. I think we all support that, and the move to give them GP commissioning, pharmacy provision and so on. All of that is good.

The challenge will be that the baseline for the current year is not necessarily the outturn of last year, because there were some one-off savings in that, so our members across the NHS are saying that this is the year when the trade-offs have to be made. Some of those trade-offs will be good, in the sense of we can reconfigure this service, move some services into the community and do some good things—I am sure we will hear about some of those—but some of them will require difficult decisions to do with whether we shut down the service in this hospital and double down on the one over there. Making those decisions will need political cover locally as well as nationally, so we are in a tricky place.

What we are saying is that we all understand the state of the public finances and suchlike, but we need some capital to allow places to reconfigure and redesign their services, whether that is new IT, AI or diagnostic services. Those are the things that will allow the transformations to take place, which is where the productivity and the money will come from. What we and chief executives, finance directors and chairs across the NHS are saying is that there is only so much heavy lifting that asking people to run around the hamster wheel a bit quicker can do. We have to make some of those big decisions.

[Dr Johnson]

Q The ICBs and trusts are going to operate under the spectre of direct intervention by the Secretary of State, who is taking much more interventional powers in this Bill. What effect will that have on the health system?

Sir Ciarán Devane: We are unclear and concerned about what the nature of those interventions could be. In theory, we fully understand that the Secretary of State and the Government need the ability to say, “In the unlikely event an ICB goes rogue, we have to have the right to sort it out,” but we need to guard against the alternative of a Secretary of State who is intervening too much and making decisions on particular services, commissioning decisions or reconfigurations. We want the legislation to prescribe the circumstances in which the board of an ICB can be overruled. That should be transparent, it should be published, and intervention should be rare. We recognise that that backstop needs to be there for the sake of good governance, but we need checks and balances. The powers are needed if somebody is operating outside their licence, but we need to guard against the Secretary of State or the regions or the new departments reaching in and second-guessing local decision making. If this is really about empowering strategic commissioners to do what is right for their populations, working closely with local authorities, interventions that second guess their decisions need to be very rare.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Mr Blythe, what value does your council of governors add to your trust?

James Blythe: Councils of governors across the NHS have added significant value since they were instituted and brought into foundation trusts. The foundation trust councils of governors play two roles. The first relates to the appointment and holding to account of the non-executive directors on the board. The second relates to securing public and patient involvement and voice in the organisation and the management of our services.

Since councils of governors were instituted, we have developed increasingly sophisticated ways of getting public and patient voice into services. If you look at innovations such as maternity and neonatal voices partnerships, which really involve service users in how services are developed on the ground and are very close to the teams that are running them, that gives us different ways of involving patients and the public in services where possibly councils of governors have not been able to do in the past. Councils of governors have played a really important role in foundation trusts, but certainly in terms of that patient and public voice function, we have moved on as a system and developed more sophisticated ways of doing that.

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

Q To pick up on Sir Ciarán’s comments about experiences being extremely rare, the changes in the Bill sit alongside changes to the national centre and clarity for ICBs, with very little change to providers. What would make the biggest difference to providers and commissioners to improve things?

Sir Ciarán Devane: The biggest difference should be that the local providers and ICBs are incentivised to get together to make collective commissioning decisions. That means that, whether you call it a neighbourhood, footprint or local authority area, they make those decisions based on population evidence, which is why the single patient record is important, and they have the autonomy to do that with a lighter-touch centre that is set in guidance saying, “Look, this is broadly what we’d like you to do.” That guidance should be developed in conjunction with the people who have to do the job on the ground. That is what it should be; if the Bill allows that, that is fantastic.

The second bit is that the mechanism—it is not necessarily a legislative thing—by which the NHS is managed day-to-day will still need to exist. Who is going to be keeping an eye on things 24/7, 365 days a year? What happens if there is a fire—maybe even a literal fire—in a hospital? How is the NHS going to be corralled and brought in to help out a trust where something like that happens? That management function—the day-to-day operational management—needs to remain strong enough in the target operating model, as it is called, in the Department. If it is not, that could prove very difficult. Not necessarily day to day or in the short term, but in the long term, that bit has to be got right. One of the big risks of the legislation—there is not a legislative solution to this risk—is how day-to-day management works. We all have views on the relative strengths of the regions, of NHS England and so on, but how is that going to work in the new world? If one loses “grip”—that word is used a lot—then the risk to service delivery is quite high, and the risk to financial control is even higher.

James Blythe: Put simply, as an NHS organisational leader I think there are always a lot of things from which you can take your guidance on what you should be prioritising and focusing on as an organisation. If the result of this legislation is that we as organisational leaders have a really tightly defined set of priorities to deliver, articulated as far as possible as outcomes for local people and our population as a whole in terms of waiting times, quality and improving population health, I think that will allow us locally to get on with the partnerships that we already have as a day-to-day part of running local public services. We can focus on that very small set of things and do them really well.

Over the last year, there has been a sense of increasing clarity about those priorities as NHS England and the Department of Health and Social Care have worked more closely together. The NHS has delivered on those priorities to a large degree, but it all comes down, as my colleague says, to how senior officials and Ministers operate the system, because there is to be significantly more freedom to set priorities, and to design and run the system that essentially delivers them for the NHS. How that is done, retaining clarity about the things that we want to have delivered through the system and empowering local systems to do them will be really important.

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[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from the Patients Association, Together for Short Lives and Healthwatch England. We have until only 3.10 pm for this panel of three people. Would you be kind enough to introduce yourselves for the record? Let us start from the left.

James Cooper: Hello. I am James Cooper, associate director of external affairs and membership at Together for Short Lives.

Sarah Tilsed: Hello. I am Sarah Tilsed, head of partnerships and involvement at the Patients Association.

Professor Croisdale-Appleby: Good afternoon. I am David Croisdale-Appleby, chair of Healthwatch England.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My first question, which is about specialist commissioning, is for James. Your charity is involved with palliative care for children. What effect do you think the changes in the Bill will have on the commissioning of very specialist, low volume and high complexity services?

James Cooper: I think that there are both opportunities and threats for families of seriously ill children and the professionals and services that provide them with palliative and end-of-life care. When we talk about seriously ill children, we mean children with life-threatening conditions, life-shortening conditions and severe medical complexity. They have a range of emotional, psychological, social and physical needs that need to be met across health, education and social care services.

Part of that care involves specialist children’s palliative care, which is predominantly provided at a regional level by teams led by specialist paediatric palliative care consultants. They often have Grid training, and there are not many across the UK—there are only about 24 whole-time equivalents. They are often based at children’s hospitals or children’s hospices and are often co-located across both. These specialist teams also comprise senior nurses and other specialists involved in emotional, psychological and practical support for families.

Our issue is that these services are often quite patchily commissioned at the moment; even though there has been a specialised children’s palliative care specification from NHS England since 2012, we think that money and commissioning has flowed to these services to only a very limited extent. For example, we have a successful service in the east of England, which provides 24/7 end-of-life care at home for seriously ill children, supported by nurses and these specialist consultants. But the provision is really patchy across England.

The Bill presents some opportunities through the additional powers for the offices for pan-integrated care board commissioning—the OPICs—to mandate ICBs to work together to commission these services. We would like to see that. However, because of the small numbers but highly complex needs of these children, the services often need to be planned and funded at a regional level, although they often are not.

We are concerned by the increased devolution to ICBs because of the extent to which other children’s palliative care services—the core services—are being commissioned at the moment. We have a range of evidence that shows that it is possible in some areas for that care to be commissioned well—for example, 19% of ICBs currently commission end-of-life care for children at home 24/7, provided by nurses and specialist consultants. However, at the moment ICBs are not taking on their full functions and implementing national guidance.

I would like to see much more rigour and accountability from the centre, the Government, to make sure that such specialised commissioning works for this particular group of complex children and families.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My second question is for Professor Croisdale-Appleby. The CQC has been reported to be in a relatively difficult place, facing challenges at the moment. It is being asked to take on event healthcare supervision and roll the HSSIB within it. Is that asking too much?

Professor Croisdale-Appleby: Obviously, I am not here to speak on behalf of the CQC, although I am a non-executive director of the CQC. You are quite right that it has been in a challenging position, from which it is taking very substantial steps to recover, principally in changing back to a system of having chief inspectors who are very knowledgeable about their particular area of expertise that they can apply. The Department has asked the CQC to take on additional responsibilities in its regulatory capability and, to some degree, in an inspectorate capability. I cannot really agree that it is too much for the CQC to take on, but a substantial amount of work is certainly being added to the CQC.

[Dr Johnson]

Q What are your thoughts on the abolition of Healthwatch? Does Healthwatch have teeth? Does it influence people? Is it influencing the decision makers? Could it be reformed or should it be abolished?

Professor Croisdale-Appleby: It is quite interesting to think that we have had 52 years of independent organisations representing the patient voice, as well as that of the carer. I think everyone here will be aware of it, but there was a step change in impact after the Mid Staffs situation, when Healthwatch—both Healthwatch England and the 153 local healthwatch bodies—was set up. We have produced over 20,000 reports; if anyone is interested in accessing any of them, we can certainly provide access by the end of the week.

Since I joined Healthwatch in 2023, in my view it has been very successful in reaching out to those communities often referred to as “difficult to reach”—diasporas and so on, where we all know the health inequalities are often the deepest. I think Healthwatch has been very successful in ensuring that we have not just listened to the easy-to-reach groups but deliberately sought information and views from those other parts of our society, which form an increasing part of it.

The research being done with those communities has recognised that there is quite often an investment of some six months for one of our people go into a particular community—whether a cultural community or an ethnic community—and win the confidence of the people so that they actually talk to us about the problems. I have to ask how that depth and focus is to be replicated under the arrangements suggested in the Bill. That is my extended first point about Healthwatch.

I think we have had a lot of impact, and I use the word “impact” as a researcher myself. Impact is measured by the change that you make. When we produce reports, whether national or local, we include recommendations. The important thing is that we always follow up on those recommendations and ask, “Are they being implemented? Are they being listened to?” Each year, we produce a report that says, “What change has occurred as a result of the recommendations that we make?”

I think that is extremely valuable, because it is about independence and holding organisations to account. Clearly, those organisations report in line function to the Department of Health, NHSE or local authorities, but we are not only the ears of the patient and the carer; at times, we hold feet to the flames over whether something sensible is being done. We do not give up on this; we pursue it down the rabbit hole.

[The Chair]

Q Ms Tilsed, you have been very patient. Before I call the Minister, do you want to add anything to what has already been said?

Sarah Tilsed: Professor Croisdale-Appleby said absolutely everything that I was about to say, so I will make just a few points without going back over everything.

The main thing is that we need to make sure that this does not divert attention from the main priorities, which obviously relate to patients: timely access to care, clear communication and involvement in decisions about their treatment. As the professor said, we need a truly independent patient voice. Abolishing healthwatches creates a fragmentation of patient engagement responsibilities across ICBs and local authorities. The evidence we see every day consistently shows that patients are not feeling informed, involved or treated as equal partners in care.

We need to ensure that any replacement model is, as Professor Croisdale-Appleby said, genuinely independent, transparently accountable and resourced equally across the country, to ensure that we do not lose sight of the people it is supposed to serve. Trust is really important here, and patients trust independent organisations. I feel that that trust might be lost in local communities.

Lastly, this is, as Professor Croisdale-Appleby said, about reporting. We need to consider the way that patient feedback data is reported, and ensure that that is not getting lost. Themes and demographics still need to be included to make sure that we know who we are listening to, and that services are provided for those who feed back and those who do not—usually, it is those who are not feeding back who we really need to consider.

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[The Chair]

Good afternoon. We shall now hear oral evidence from the Local Government Association, the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, and South East London ICS. We have until 3.50 pm for this panel. Could you identify yourselves for the benefit of the record, please?

Maria Higson: My name is Maria Higson. I would like to state for the record that I am here to bring to the panel the experience of a director of transformation within the South East London ICS. I do not represent the organisation, but hopefully I bring that experience.

Councillor Wright: I am Councillor Megan Wright. I am the vice-chair of the Local Government Association health and wellbeing committee.

Sally Burlington: I am Sally Burlington. I am chief executive of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, which represents directors of adult social care in England.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Does removing local authority representation from ICBs weaken the link with local elected representatives, or is it beneficial?

Councillor Wright: I assume that was directed at me, as I am a representative in local government. We feel it is going to weaken it. Having someone on the ICB is useful to help shape health strategy and ensure that the wider determinants of health are taken into consideration when planning health. We would like to see some kind of structure where local authorities and other partners involved in determining health from a wider perspective have a voice within the NHS delivering health locally.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Thank you. Maria, how do you think the Bill and all the changes around ICB funding will affect local services? To what extent does the process in itself cause disruption—or not?

Maria Higson: Whenever we introduce these changes into the system we have to remember that we are talking about a group of professionals who are trying to deliver for the NHS, citizens and patients. This Bill was first announced back in March 2025. It would be fair to say that since then, for an awful lot of people, there have been organisational and personal unknowns. The best intentions to deliver against the agenda and the three shifts can be hindered by that uncertainty. As with everything, implementation is absolutely critical.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Thank you. Sally, what would be the impact of the removal of the pooling of better care funding among local authorities and ICBs?

Sally Burlington: The better care fund is a really important source of funding for statutory core services. It funds about 80% of social care—in terms of the use of the better care fund by social care, 80% is statutory. While the ability to use it differently could be really valuable, we would be worried about diverting it from those core services into other functions. We have also benefited from the fact that the better care fund is uplifted at the same rate as NHS funding. If we lost that, it would be significant, because social care is systematically less well funded over time compared with some other services.

[Dr Johnson]

So you are losing a protection with the Bill.

Sally Burlington: Exactly.

[Karin Smyth]

Q Councillor Wright, the Bill will essentially abolish NHS England. Do you have any comments about how that works at the moment in terms of local government? How can we unlock some of the potential in the Bill, with the changes to NHS England, with regard to local government, particularly on health and wellbeing boards and the entire place agenda?

Councillor Wright: The main problem the abolition of NHS England has caused is upheaval and uncertainty with our health partners. Many of the health partners at our health and wellbeing board meetings or our place committee meetings are almost saying to us, “I don’t know if I will be here at the next meeting.” Such turmoil in the changeover creates instability from a lack of being able to plan what will happen next. That is one of the challenges that we feel. We are working with our health partners and getting assurances that there will be continuity, but it is quite hard when the person we are working with is changing.

We are really excited about neighbourhood health sitting under health and wellbeing boards. We love the idea of neighbourhood health looking at the wider determinants of health and having a very localised health response to the issues that that community needs to help it. One of our anxieties is that a lot of ICBs have become bigger and have less connection with the place. They are also shrinking; I think NHS England is losing 30%—

Maria Higson: Larger geography, fewer people!

Councillor Wright: Exactly. We have had a letter from our ICB giving us the heads-up that they might not be able to guarantee that they can send the right person to our health and wellbeing committees, which will obviously make it difficult to plan neighbourhood health.

The other challenge we find in neighbourhood health is that local authority boundaries might not necessarily match neighbourhood boundaries. I will give an example from Bracknell, where I live. Bracknell is very clearly a neighbourhood, but the south of the borough, which is within the Bracknell Forest council area, probably sits within Bracknell and Wokingham and a little bit within Reading. It will be hard to bring in true neighbourhoods with the current structure, but that is something we are working around, and we are hopeful that we will be able to sort it out.

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[The Chair]

Thank you all very much for joining us.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My first question goes to all of you. In principle, the single patient record offers opportunity, but people have expressed reservations, as have each of your charities. What are your thoughts on the single patient record?

Paul Farmer: From the perspective of older people and people with long-term conditions, the single patient record will be, broadly speaking, welcomed. I will explain very briefly why. If you are an older person with multiple long-term conditions and you find yourself in hospital, you often have to explain your experience and health needs, time and again. That is often because of a lack of join-up between the current data systems. Single patient record means the individual patient does not need to repeat their stories or lived experience—and, more importantly, it allows clinicians to have a clear overview of an individual patient’s health records. There are issues that need to be considered, particularly around making sure that people are not digitally excluded, and I am sure that we will get into those, but at a high level we would welcome the introduction of a single patient record.

Kath Abrahams: There are some very similar themes for us. A lack of shared patient record is a particular issue in pregnancy and maternity. You are being seen by your GP, early pregnancy unit and maternity unit. You might have other conditions that affect pregnancy or could affect the outcome of your baby being born. At the moment those systems are very disjointed. The other piece in maternity, which will not come as a surprise to you, is that, if you have lost a baby, you end up having to retell your story over and over again and that can be very traumatic. Sometimes that can lead to people disengaging from care, but also in many cases being retraumatised.

We broadly welcome the single patient record, but with lots of caveats around people feeling able to trust the data and trust that their data is safe. Overall we are very supportive.

Emily Holzhausen: Again, similarly to my colleagues, we are supportive. When we ask unpaid carers what matters to them, sharing of information is really critical, but we have a slightly different perspective here.

First, carers would like to have access to the record, with the right permissions. That is not on the face of the Bill, but it is suggested that that may be covered in regulations, and we would like to see some assurances of that. It would change things, again, because of not having to retell information, which carers call “triggering” and “exhausting”. They will be more able to spot errors or things that are not quite right, which is important for the person they are caring for. As an unpaid carer, when you are responsible for caring for someone, that is a huge weight on your shoulders and you really want to make sure that it is being done right. Finally, most of us care remotely—we do not all live with the person that we care for. This could really help to transform carer’s lives and the pressure they feel.

I have one statistic for you: just under one in eight carers spend over 40 hours a month on NHS admin. If the NHS app and the single patient record can reduce that, that would change things. The only other point I would like to make is that where this tips over into social care, this is something that we need to build with social care and all those people who go across all these different services.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I have a question for Emily about digital exclusion and the app. What can be done to help people not to be digitally excluded? How do you see this working in areas of the country with poorer broadband connections, for example? Also, what about the record? Sharing your medical records is not an all-or-nothing thing, is it? It may be that someone is happy to share their current illness or current medical circumstance with their carer, but may perhaps want aspects of their history to remain a secret. Have you had any indications from the Government on how that might work?

Emily Holzhausen: Yes. That is a lot of different questions. It has to be done with the right permissions, with the patient being in control of their data—that is a very strongly held principle within the NHS. There will be situations where people do not have capacity and their primary carer, who might be their partner, their son or daughter, might need access. We have lasting power of attorney in England, which could be used as a mechanism, or other assurance mechanisms.

As for digital access, that is an issue that I am sure Paul will want to come on to. Especially when digital access costs money and we have people in poverty, we have called for that to be supported by Government to ensure that everybody has digital access. People have to feel confident about it. While we have seen a doubling in the number of carers using the NHS app to manage their own health and care in the past two years, there are key groups that are being excluded: older carers, people on lower incomes and people who feel less confident with technology, for a whole range of different reasons.

Some of this stuff is delivered very well through voluntary and community services—I know that Age UK has helped my family locally, for example, but I will stop there, because I am sure Paul will want to come in on that.

[The Chair]

Paul Farmer, you have been given the floor.

Paul Farmer: I would very much like to come in on this subject. We see probably the greatest risk and the greatest opportunity here, in the context of digital exclusion and digital inclusion. The risk of digital exclusion is that older people in particular, although it is not exclusively an older people’s issue, will lack the access to their own care record, as it is electronically based. We need to bear that in mind when we think about the roll-out of that and the availability of the content of that patient record to people who are digitally excluded.

I do think, however, that this is a significant opportunity. It is part of a much broader question about digital inclusion more generally, and inclusion into accessing public services more generally, which is a key theme of the work we are doing at Age UK. We had funds from DSIT to support the work of our local Age UKs, where we run a number of digital champions programmes—Members are very welcome to come and visit them at any time. We worked with 8,000 older people in a two-month period; we engaged more than 1,000 of that group into our digital champions programme, and two thirds of people took up the offer of engaging in a training module on accessing the NHS app.

In particular, we were able to enable people who are partially digitally excluded. We are publishing a report later, which we will share with the Committee in time, about the opportunities for people who are not fully excluded, but partially excluded. We think people are able to go on that journey, but it does need support. We encourage the Government to think about putting a really thorough programme of digital inclusion alongside the implementation of the single patient record, to support older people, people with long-term conditions, people with learning disabilities and other conditions who might need extra help and support to access the NHS app. There is a risk here of people being excluded, but also an opportunity for inclusion.

Mrs B, in Lincolnshire, was helped by Age UK Lincolnshire. She was a carer to her husband, who has had a stroke; she had a home visit from the local Age UK and they were able to set up the NHS app for her. She said she would not have been able to do that without that extra help and support.

[Dr Johnson]

Q As a Lincolnshire MP, I am delighted to know that that is operating, if not necessarily in my constituency, then certainly in the county. I have a question for Kath: how does the single patient record apply to maternity in terms of safeguarding and access to that sort of information? As an aside, this Bill allows the Secretary of State to set targets. How would you see that working in maternity care?

Kath Abrahams: On digital exclusion, the same risks apply, although there is a different age demographic. If you have somebody who has a particular disability, has English as a second language, or has difficulty reading, we need to ensure that alongside the single patient record we are not excluding people without meaning to. Having said that, there are real opportunities to reduce inequities as a result of this change, such as by ensuring that everyone’s information is there, and that people do not have to retell their story if they find it difficult to speak to their clinician.

What the single patient record will not do is solve all the problems found in the national maternity and neonatal investigation. An action plan will come out of that investigation, and it must be looked at really seriously. A single patient record does not replace compassionate care or somebody really being looked after well, but it can potentially provide a safer environment—I am very happy to go into detail on that.

The national maternity ambitions have expired, but we are pushing very hard for them to be restated. There is potentially an opportunity to use the data at a broader level to measure progress. If it was possible to use the single patient record to understand how things were going towards improvement, that could be very helpful.

[Karin Smyth]

Q I will follow on from Dr Johnson’s questions. You have all expressed support for the single patient record, which is great, but that is not universal. Obviously, the Bill has to be enacted for that measure to go forward. It would be helpful to hear about your current experiences in your different areas—older people, maternity and carers. Your examples gave a bit more detail on why not to have this, Ms Abrahams—let us not assume, because although the process of the Bill is to make this happen, we have heard some concerns today from people who do not want that. What is happening in your world that this will help with?

Kath Abrahams: Right now, the situation is really tricky and people are being failed in their pregnancy and maternity care. Women report constantly having to retell their story—highly sensitive or traumatic experiences of loss—and that repetition can happen across the early pregnancy unit and maternity services. There is a common misconception that the NHS is one system, so when they find that people in another bit of the system do not know something, that can be really frustrating and annoying, because they assume that it exists.

There is also a lack of continuity. A clinician can be completely unaware of a sensitive or traumatic experience that somebody has had, and there can also be genuine dangers in outcomes. We know from the reports into Morecambe Bay, Shrewsbury and Telford that the lack of joined-up sharing of information and good communication between different parts of the system has led to some really difficult outcomes, particularly if somebody also has gestational diabetes, for example, or another condition and they are taking a particular medication that could cause harm to an unborn baby.

There are lots of situations in which not having the complete history is preventing people from getting not only really good, compassionate care, but the safe care they need. If someone is in an emergency situation and they are bleeding out, or their baby is not moving as much as they should, there is not time to start from scratch; they might not be in a position to explain what is happening to them and what their history is. They might not even know all the relevant bits of their history. Having that complete record, if it was done really well, would give clinicians the information that would allow them to make really timely decisions. Maternity can often be high risk—I do not need to say that to you; you know that—but these are often fast-moving situations where time is absolutely of the essence.

Emily Holzhausen: To build on what I said earlier about the amount of co-ordination and admin that people do, I will just refer to some carers’ words. One said that if they had to phone, they would end up in a long waiting queue or having to travel to the GP in person. There are people juggling work and care, so this has real, everyday impacts on their lives and their time.

When I refer to errors, I mean things such as medication errors or diagnosis errors. When you care for someone with very complex conditions, you can have health appointments every week—sometimes twice a week—and it is so hard to stay on top of it. When I say it is so hard, and talk about unpaid carers, we know that caring is a social determinant of health: in itself it is a single factor for poorer health outcomes. We know that 600 people a day give up work to care.

We have done a report on the tipping point: what tips carers out of work? One such thing is social care; another is how they are treated in the health system. If we reduce the pressure on carers and put information at their fingertips to help them to manage care, we improve outcomes for everybody: the health and wellbeing of the carer and the safety of the person that they care for. People are trying to do their best in quite a difficult situation.

One of our members, Norman Phillips, has talked about that a lot. He was in contact with more than 24 professionals, knitting up care around his wife who had advanced multiple sclerosis and dementia. That is an incredible amount of co-ordination of care. You can see how a single patient record, as it is envisaged in the future, could really help to support people who provide care. It is critical, given that we have an ageing population, that we recognise and support families in what they do.

Paul Farmer: I would start by talking about people with long-term conditions. Let us bear in mind that by the time we are 65, 82% of us will have one long-term condition, and half of people aged 70-plus have more than one long-term condition. Most of those long-term conditions are diagnosed within primary care, but of course they have a huge impact on access to secondary care services. For a clinician not to be able to see that whole picture and for the individual to have to explain again and again their physical health issues, and potentially their comorbid mental health issues, creates a huge challenge for people in getting access to the right help and support in a timely manner.

I would build on that to think about two areas that particularly affect older people: frailty and dementia. In this context, we know that assessment for frailty can make a big difference to ensuring people receive the right kind of help and support. That should be done in primary care, but often, sadly, people with frailty will present in hospital with a range of conditions. Understanding the frailty assessment score and what help and support is needed is key. For people with dementia and their family carers, having access to the right information for the clinician and for the individual concerned can make a huge difference. A disjointed experience just exacerbates what can often be a very challenging time.

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[The Chair]

Thank you all for joining us. Again, I apologise for the disruption.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I should say that I also work as an NHS consultant paediatrician. The single patient record offers a great opportunity for doctors, clinicians and patients to all be much more joined up, but I have a quote from the Secretary of State on Second Reading:

“rather than data being transferred from where it exists at the moment to a new system, it will remain where it is—in GP surgeries, hospitals and so on—but it will be linked up so that one person, including the patient, can see all that data”.—[Official Report, 1 June 2026; Vol. 786, c. 890.]

How easily will that work in practice? In the trust that I work in, we have different systems for blood results, results, tracking patient appointments, maternity and A&E. Is it realistic to expect someone to be able to log on from one part of the country and to understand all the different systems in all the other parts of the country, or do you think that it needs to work in a different way?

Dr Imam: About a month ago, we published some NHS England guidance on best practice for frailty. Included in that are examples of shared care records, where people who are living with frailty who have been assessed by health services can actually view one record. The way those work is to take information from multiple different records and place it into one shared care record, in order for clinicians from various different backgrounds and multidisciplinary teams to work together.

[Dr Johnson]

That would be moving it on to a new system.

Dr Imam: That is in a separate shared care records system.

Dr Byrne: As I understand it, the architecture is not yet decided, so how we solve those technical challenges will be determined by the choice of architecture.

Dr Cocker: Similarly, I believe that the technical solution for how that will be delivered has not been finalised. When we did the maternity-based pilot in the north-west, the wireframe prototype that was developed pulled information from all the separate systems—the maternity system, the hospital central electronic patient record system, the GP system. The pilot was based on pulling it from each individual system into one place where it can be viewed, but that is a future aim. The focus is on phased implementation, so it would not all be immediately available like that, but that is the vision.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Of course, it would need to be viewable across the whole country for people who travel around. What about the security of this data? Lots of people have expressed concerns about the security of the data, both from people who are a bit nosey and who want to have a look, and from people who would wish to do the country harm, hacking large volumes of data. How do we keep it safe?

Dr Cocker: That is a pertinent question. I know that that has been the focus of a lot of concern since the Bill was publicised. I believe that the structure of the SPR would be recognised as a critical national infrastructure-type of project, so it would have access to more resource to protect it. But there will always be inherent risk, when you have something centralised, that it is a single target rather than multiple targets that could be attacked—for example, in a cyber-attack.

Role-based access would be important—for example, having an understanding that the information should be accessed only for the provision of clinical care. How it would be delivered on a technical level would have to be finalised; that was not the type of the prototyping work we did, because it was more about a proof of concept than those more minute technical challenges.

Dr Byrne: I am glad that Dr Cocker took that question first, because he has given you a helpful technical answer. As National Data Guardian, my mission and concern is primarily around public and professional trust. Trust in whether this system can be relied on in terms of people’s confidentiality is something that concerns me very much, as well as people’s trust and confidence in secondary purposes, how the system will be used and what the safeguards around it will be. I would be happy to answer from that perspective when it comes to people’s confidence.

I think you have heard a lot about the potential benefits of this system, but it is important to bear in mind that if people do not trust it, the programme will fail, however great the potential benefits are. As a clinician, I would share the excitement, and I am very supportive of the ambition, but people will not trust it if they perceive the risks to the security of their data and confidentiality to be too great.

With that in mind, I want to draw attention to two things that concern trust. I want to emphasise that trust is not simply important—I know that the word “trust” has come up repeatedly today—but absolutely foundational to the success of this. The question about how demonstrably trustworthy the system is should be the primary foundational question; all other questions, including the technical ones, flow from that one question.

On the confidentiality aspect, I think there is a provision under clause 47 that potentially has very significant unintended consequences. I understand that that is not the intention of the drafting, but I have concerns about it and I have a potential solution to suggest. In clause 47, proposed new section 250E(3) creates the power for the Secretary of State to remove the duty of confidentiality for any processing in the SPR in line with regulations. I need to register my concern about that wholesale lifting of the duty of confidentiality from the entire system.

At a system level, there are two risks. One is to patient and professional confidence in the confidentiality of the data once it is accessed or in a system. Confidentiality is absolutely the cornerstone of all clinician-patient relationships. It means that people are comfortable to share the most sensitive information about themselves and often loved ones—it is not just information about ourselves on our records; it is often also information about our loved ones. If people do not trust that that confidentiality is a constant ethical constraint for anyone accessing the record further on, they may be less able to share information about themselves or their loved ones. Clinicians may also be less likely to document that information if they have ethical concerns about who may access it further on if it is particularly sensitive. That will negatively impact on care and the quality of data for any secondary purposes in future.

The second point I will make about that confidentiality provision is that I understand that the drafting intent is to remove any ambiguity in terms of people’s concerns about duty of confidence when allowing access to their data at an organisational level. However, as currently drafted, the provision could be interpreted to remove the duty of confidentiality for not just direct care but secondary purposes. Secondary purposes in future could be dealt with by regulations. That lack of clarity poses a risk.

The solution I suggest is to redraft that provision, drawing on the precedent already set in the Health and Social Care Act 2012. Section 259 prevents disclosure of data from an organisation from being a breach, so people could allow access at an organisational level with confidence. You have removed that ambiguity, but it does not remove wholesale that duty of confidence—that ethical safeguard for the data in the system itself. I think that that is important for people’s own direct care, and, as I said, it is particularly important if there are any questions around secondary uses in future.

Dr Imam: That was a comprehensive answer; I have nothing to add.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Does it surprise you that the Bill is being brought forward before it has been properly and completely designed? We have tabled some amendments to clause 47; I appreciate that you will not have had a chance to look at those yet, but we would be interested in your thoughts if you could provide them to the Committee afterwards.

We keep hearing that it is difficult for people to have to repeat their story. I understand that stories can be traumatic and repeating them can be unpleasant, particularly if it must be done many times, but is there sometimes a clinical value in asking people to go through their story? If so, what is it?

Dr Imam: My specialty is frailty, which is a medical condition characterised by a loss of independence. Although it is associated with ageing, it is not an inevitable part of ageing. The treatment that I deliver as a clinician is called a comprehensive geriatric assessment. It is evidence-based and we know that it improves patient outcomes and maintains independence. What it describes is a multidisciplinary team approach to a holistic assessment that focuses on what matters most to the patient.

One of the issues that we have right now, however, is that the NHS does not consistently identify people who are living with frailty right across the system from community to hospital. If we are identifying people and diagnosing them with a condition, you would expect treatment options to be offered, yet we do not consistently do that across the country. That is essentially driving ineffective and inefficient care. Sometimes, therefore, when a crisis sets in—we have seen this in other reports around corridor care—that can ensue in older people living with frailty.

In my day job, where I look after people in a busy A&E department, I see people who have may have had a fall or become confused, or where there has been a breakdown in their social situation. My practitioners and I are spending hours trying to piece together information from multiple different sources. Those could be paper-based, digital or telephone—we could be trying to phone people to get up-to-date information. As you can imagine, sometimes they do not pick up the phone, so we are sometimes working from incomplete information and things that are not up to date.

Once we have done that, we try to create a care plan for a patient that allows them to be looked after in the community. However, that care plan may not follow the patient, because everyone uses different electronic patient record systems. Some important partners in that care, like social care or ambulance services, cannot actually see the care plan that I have developed for my patient.

Unfortunately, if a patient with frailty then succumbs to a crisis of some kind, the default setting is, in many cases, to trigger an admission to hospital. If a patient does not need to be in a hospital environment and they are frail, they can end up becoming more frail and weak, and lose their independence. That means that they will need even more social care than would otherwise have been required.

Where the solution comes in is that a nationally rolled-out single patient record system could fundamentally reshape this form of care, because we would be moving it from the fragmented, reactive model that I just described to one that is proactive, co-ordinated and truly centred around a patient. Another thing about frailty is that there are so many different people involved in that person’s care, so we need to try to restore the continuity of care for that type of patient, which has become eroded over time. The SPR addresses that with a single up-to-date view of a patient. It enables earlier risk identification, faster clinical decision making and that whole-system integrated response I have been describing, which is lacking at the moment.

There is often duplication; one of the other issues is that assessing patients in this manner can take a long period of time—up to two and a half hours is often quoted by the British Geriatrics Society. You can imagine that if you had an electronic record that could be auto-populated or could rely on the most recent, up-to-date plan done by someone else, that would avoid reassessment as we would be working from contemporaneous information.

Over time, you can see how, for frailty and many other conditions, that could lead to a more preventive approach that is more community based, that reduces the need for admissions, and that provides a better overall experience for staff and patients. Importantly, there needs to be a shift towards neighbourhood working on frailty, and this allows the multidisciplinary team to work towards one plan. You have also heard today about patient voice and carer voice, and this type of care plan also gives them the opportunity to become partners in looking after themselves.

Dr Cocker: The brief answer to the original question would be that communicating and getting a history from a patient are the cornerstone of the patient-doctor relationship. I do not think that the SPR is ever intended to replace that. Where I see its value within maternity, although I am sure that this is the same across all specialties, is that it would form a reliable means of cross-referencing information and being able to get information that—as we have alluded to previously—is often held on many separate systems. As a clinician, you will often not have the ability or the credentials to access that.

For example, in maternity care at my trust we use a certain piece of software. If you do not work in maternity, although you might be able to get generic access to it, you might not be able to navigate that system. The idea of the SPR is that it would pull out those key bits regarding current concerns about the pregnancy or what follow up has been arranged—all those kinds of things. That would not rely on the ability to use lots of different systems; instead, the information would be available. If there is information that requires cross-referencing or checking, it would also give you the ability to do that rather than replacing the process of taking a history and working out what is wrong with someone.

Dr Byrne: It is a terrific question. Healthcare is a relationship; it is not simply a transaction of facts. At its best, it is a working relationship between a clinician and a patient, but that is also why it is so hard sometimes. Our stories are a combination of two things: the facts and the interpretation of those facts. We heard a moving example earlier of someone saying that they had had five miscarriages and those facts were then not known and how distressing it was that they were not. That is a good example of why getting the facts from conversation to conversation could be really helpful.

Our life story changes over time, however, as does the interpretation that comes up in a conversation. As a doctor in the moment with a patient, I am sometimes as interested in what they are choosing not to tell me at a particular time as what they are choosing to tell me. For all of us, the story changes and is fluid. I think that is a potentially helpful distinction to make.

[Karin Smyth]

Q My questions around the benefits that you might see have been really well answered, so I will not go back to that issue. Dr Cocker and Dr Imam, in your work on maternity and frailty, what early lessons have you picked up on how this might work for you?

Dr Cocker: Having seen the maternity-focused prototype that NHS England developed in the north-west, we learned that it is technically difficult because there are lots of systems. There needs to be a level of interoperability that allows you to pull the data or it is not going to be much use as a reliable system.

The other thing was about trying to ensure that we design those systems for the patients most in need. That might be social or medical need, and there are many different facets to that. That was one of the other challenges. A lot of the focus went into trying to determine a set of theoretical patients who were very high need, and ensuring that you have encompassed all those possible needs, so that if you design the systems for those in most need, they will cater for as many people as possible.

Dr Imam: To expand on Dr Cocker’s point about the identification of problems, people living with frailty often have multiple under-identified issues. In the prototype we have been shown, the SPR has the potential to analyse the wealth of data on a person and summarise it in a manner that makes sense to the clinician logged into the record. It can also piece together a timeline of what has been happening with a person.

As I said earlier, we often follow a manual process to try to understand what has been going on recently for a person. The SPR will not only enable the automation of that process, but give us the ability to know who the key individuals involved in that person’s care are, so when that person is in a crisis or emergency situation, we know exactly who to call and who the last person to touch the patient was.

There are other important functions. It is not only about sharing information across an entire pathway and having the whole-system approach that I described—from community to hospital, and vice versa. Importantly, many people living with frailty require multiple different referrals and the involvement of multiple different people in their care. The SPR will be able to streamline some of those processes and make recommendations for certain referrals that a clinician, who, under an earlier version, would have logged into the record, may not have otherwise thought about, so it may even improve outcomes for patients by providing solutions to improve their care that we would not have come up with otherwise.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Prinsley]

Q I would love to amend the figures in my bank account—I would like to be able to go into my Lloyds bank account and add a nought to the end of the balance figure—but I cannot, because the bank controls that. But I am the one who has access to the data.

Dr Byrne: I totally support that ambition. Patients and the public having more agency in their care, strengthening that relationship, and them being able to access their information through the NHS app is a great thing. That is hugely helpful, and there is real potential with the SPR to strengthen that. We have landed on agreement.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Do you have any thoughts on the separation of elements of the record such as safeguarding records and sexual health records? We have heard about carers being able to see parts of the record. Surely there are circumstances where we may want people to see parts of the record but not others, or people may wish to share some parts and not others. Are you aware of any provision being made for that?

Dr Byrne: At the moment, I think it is too early to say. Those are absolutely important questions that will have to be addressed in the design. At the moment, I am not sure how the programme intends to deal with those questions, but clinically, that needs to be thought about. There are complications that need to be thought about very carefully in terms of the record and the access. Sometimes that is clinically complicated, but I am not aware of what the plans are for that.

[Dr Johnson]

Thank you. You are nodding, Dr Cocker.

Dr Cocker: I was just going to say that we did do some exploratory work in relation to safeguarding, because that is quite a key part of safe maternity care, but because of the issues with confidentiality for other involved parties—say, a mother’s partner or someone else in the family—and the risk of that information being pulled through to someone else’s single patient record, it was felt that we could not include any information that contained information about anyone else. That aspect has been considered, but as Dr Byrne said, it would need careful consideration of all those different sources and whether there would be any option to change what feeds in. The only one I am aware of that we have looked at specifically was safeguarding, and it was primarily due to confidentiality issues for other involved parties.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Presumably, the obstetrician may need to be aware of previous pregnancies, but the patient may not want their current partner to know about them.

Dr Cocker: Yes, and those are concerns with the existing systems. There are multiple sources of information we record on a clinician-facing basis that might be deemed sensitive or confidential that are not available from a patient-facing perspective. It might be sexually transmitted infections or previous pregnancy history that a mother does not want someone else to be able to access on the patient-facing aspect of the record. Being able to provide that is very important in realising the end product of the SPR.

[The Chair]

Dr Byrne, Dr Imam and Dr Cocker, thank you very much indeed for your patience and for affording us the benefit of your experience and wisdom. The Committee is most grateful to you.

Examination of Witness

Jon Restell gave evidence.

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Managers in Partnership. We have until we have exhausted ourselves—I will say that for the moment—for this session. Would you be kind enough to introduce yourself for the record?

Jon Restell: I am Jon Restell, the chief executive of Managers in Partnership.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Good afternoon, Mr Restell. When the NHS has been reorganised in the past, it has become more centralised or less centralised. Which do you think this Bill does?

Jon Restell: There are lots of different ways to answer that. Obviously, some functions of NHS England moving into the Department, with powers going to the Secretary of State, feels like a centralising measure. I know that the ambition of Government is to give local NHS bodies more freedom and autonomy, but the Bill is very careful and goes into a lot of detail to leave powers with the Secretary of State to intervene in the running of those local bodies. On the whole, it is probably more of a centralising measure.

Another way that some changes outside the Bill process are centralising is through the merger of ICBs and, arguably, quite a lot of providers. Whereas before you might have two or three ICBs covering an area, you now have half the staff covering much bigger geographies. I would argue that that centralises decision making to a higher level than formerly.

[Dr Johnson]

Q What effect is that having on managers and their ability to do the day job and deliver care? Presumably, a lot of time, effort and energy, and perhaps a lot of worry, are going into the process of reorganisation. What effect does that have on the delivery of services and the development of new ones?

Jon Restell: This, for us, is the crux of what is going on. The Bill is the Bill, but there is a finite management resource in the health service. I think that, internationally, it is considered to be quite low. Certainly, Lord Darzi, the Institute for Government and Institute for Fiscal Studies have all pointed to a shortage of management being one of the potential weaknesses of the NHS, so what is going on right now is knocking another big hole in an already limited resource of managers in the health service. That has the potential to create very large workloads for people in the new system, such that, inevitably, certain things will not get done or will not get done well enough. It certainly feels like we have gone into an environment where we are cutting a management cost without thinking about the management capability the health service needs to innovate, deliver reform, and do basic safety and resource management.

[Dr Johnson]

Q That does not sound very good. The Government said that they were going to regulate NHS managers. What impact do you think that would have?

Jon Restell: Our members have been on a bit of a journey on this one. I think that they would broadly support the regulatory proposals that the Government will bring forward after the consultation. I think the real impacts will be very limited, covering a relatively small number of people and being used in very exceptional circumstances, so I do not think that they will transform management culture and deal with the management capability issue we have. They are a very personal form of professional regulation that will have very limited impact.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We have heard a lot today about things not being quite finalised yet; we are not quite sure where the destination is. Is it difficult for managers to be asked to transform from a current service to a new service if there is no well explained vision and understanding of what “new” looks like?

Jon Restell: That is probably driving most of the anxiety and uncertainty that people are experiencing, and it is why, for some members, this is becoming psychologically very difficult. You have a change programme that started in March last year with the announcement by the Prime Minister of the abolition of NHS England and the halving of the staff of NHS England and ICBs. For 18 months, that process has dragged on, with lots of design decisions still to be taken about how the organisation will look, what functions it will have, what will be going to the Department and what might be going elsewhere, and what will potentially go to trusts from ICBs and from ICBs to regions. Despite all that uncertainty, people are being told to make decisions about voluntary redundancy and the future where they do not understand where that future potentially sits for them. That is undoubtedly driving a lot of people to feel psychologically unwell and distressed, and they are leaving. People are beginning to leave, because they need to protect themselves.

There is another part to this. Obviously, that is a very personal issue for our members, but the other thing is that they are really worried about the service to the public, the safety of the changes and what will happen to various functions that they are responsible for, if teams get halved and responsibilities are taken to a higher level in that more centralised model.

For example, we have a lot of members working in ICBs who have really hands-on roles in the care of individual children, particularly where providers fail. Those kinds of concern are not being properly addressed in terms of risk and continuity of service to those people. We are going to survey our members—we will share the results with the Committee—in the next week or so about what specifically is worrying them about the way that change is being managed. With due respect to the Minister, this was all announced without a plan, and we are now waiting for a plan to emerge, 18 months into the process.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We do not have a plan of where we are going, but you have been asked to go somewhere.

Jon Restell: Obviously, we have the 10-year health plan, which most people broadly see as a good vision for the service, but there are too many key design questions around the new department, the role of the department’s regions, what ICBs will be doing and what trusts will take on as part of this reorganisation. Behind it, there is a lot of capacity and resource organisational memory being taken out of the system.

We do not talk nearly enough about the work of the commissioning support units staff, who are providing internal consultancy and a huge range of business services to the health service, including overseeing child immunisation programmes in some cases. It is really unclear what the future of those functions is. We are taking out a lot of staff who have skills, expertise, organisational memory and commitment, but we do not quite know yet what the precise form of those organisations will be. It is a very difficult change to manage.

[Karin Smyth]

Q It is always good to have a doctor from the NHS supporting managers in the NHS, having been one. I declared my interest earlier that I am a member of Managers in Partnership.

We had a lot of change with the Health and Social Care Act 2012, and the Bill seeks to reverse that in terms of the architecture of the NHS. We absolutely appreciate as a Government that that is very difficult for staff working in it. I appreciate that the operating model and so on is coming forward, but could you say a bit about people’s feelings about the Bill? There will be more clarity to the centre and the role of providers is not changing, while the real change is around commissioning functions and, as you said, commissioning support organisations. We heard earlier that everything is being reorganised. That is not true, but there is a big change in the geography and the functions of ICBs and commissioners, and the Secretary of State’s role will clearly be different. What might people’s approach to that be?

Jon Restell: Clarity, definitely. No one wants to start with the system that came in in 2011 and 2012. Successive Governments started to correct it almost as soon as it was put in place. I think most people would welcome sorting out the clarity around commissioning there, but I do not think that is the same thing as cutting 50% of those organisations’ staff and running costs. You are clarifying the relationship between the centre and ICBs, commissioning and providers. You still need enough managers with enough skills working in the right system to deliver. That is the nub of what we are doing.

For us it is not really about how the Bill will eventually pan out; it is about the cut and how that is being administered by NHS England, the Department and ICBs. The whole system of management is under strain across the health service. You say that providers are not changing but they are also being asked to take out quite significant amounts of management resource. They are merging to form bigger, potentially more centralised units that may be less responsive and less innovative. I think that organisational form is really important, even if the headline of the Bill might tidy up and clarify those relationships, which would be welcome.

A point made by a lot of members, particularly those in ICBs, is that they do not think that the model design—where we started with ICBs, then went to regions and we are eventually going to get to the target operating model for the Department—is being done at a time where you can see the proper connections that need to be made between those organisations. When the system is up and running, how well will it work together to share information, share risk and so on? It feels like the Bill is very high level and the detailed design of the organisations is being undertaken in a completely fragmented way. People see that as potentially requiring the next round of reorganisation. You are a former NHS manager, Minister; you know how often reorganisation is reached for as the solution. I genuinely feel that people have got to the point where enough is enough. That kind of continual change will create more and more problems for doing the things that the public actually want to see: innovation, improvement in the quality of service and happier staff—all the things that managers should be focused on, not the merry-go-round of organisational change.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We shall now hear oral evidence from Sir Andrew Dilnot. Sir Andrew, for the benefit of the record, could you identify yourself, please?

Sir Andrew Dilnot: I am Andrew Dilnot; it is great to be here.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Good afternoon. Social care is one area that is absent from this Bill. To what extent is it possible to make the health service more efficient without tackling problems in adult social care?

Sir Andrew Dilnot: It is largely absent from the Bill—indeed, when I was asked to come and give evidence to this Committee, I was initially somewhat puzzled, since it is so largely absent. The question you ask is absolutely to the point: certainly, we can improve the efficiency of the NHS without doing anything about social care, but we cannot really address many of the fundamental problems facing the NHS if we do not sort out social care.

That is partly because not having a good social care system means that we are not achieving the levels of human flourishing that are the objective of the health service and the social care system. It is also the case that the social care system is now under such pressure that it is leading to direct challenges for the NHS. We hear a lot about delayed transfers of care, which are an important part of this, but it is not just those; it is people who end up needing healthcare because they have not had appropriate social care support.

The short answer to your question is that we can make the NHS a bit more efficient without reforming the social care system; but until we address social care we have at least two hands, and probably one foot, tied behind our back. It seems pretty astonishing to me that we have a 10-year NHS plan but no real plan for social care.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We have heard evidence today that the Bill weakens links between local authority working and the ICB. Does that help social care, or could that actually make it worse?

Sir Andrew Dilnot: I would not claim to be expert here, but I have read the Bill and the briefings. The role of local authorities in social care is a very interesting one. If we were to stand way back and honestly answer the question, “Why is social care managed by local authorities at the moment?”, we would say, “Because it was forgotten in 1948, when the rest of the modern welfare state was created.” At that stage, social care was a pretty small activity, and it was just left with local authorities. What has happened since then is that it has grown and grown, and it is now putting enormous strain on at least many local authorities.

I think we should draw a clear distinction in something that is definitely appropriate—that is, care being provided within a local context. The kind of care that is appropriate in Camden will be different to the type of care that is appropriate in the highlands of Scotland. Local delivery seems relevant, but whether local financing makes sense in 2026 is a very big question. That is the context.

On its own, it is hard to see the potential reduction in the role of local authorities in ICBs making things better. It will not necessarily make things significantly worse, but I do not think it will help local authorities and the NHS in trying to integrate these two essentially non-integrated functions.

[Karin Smyth]

Q As you say, the Bill does not deal with social care, but it is great to have your expertise here. Do you think the Bill should or could have included social care at this stage?

Sir Andrew Dilnot: The question of the fine details of how legislation should be passed is certainly outside my skillset, so I have to be agnostic about whether the Bill should have addressed the wider questions of social care. On the question of whether we could address social care or not, the answer is definitely yes. After all, several Governments over the last few years have promised to do so. The former Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, when he was the shadow Secretary of State during the election two years ago, promised that he would do it. Such measures have received Royal Assent twice, but they have still not taken place, even though they were promised by the then shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, before he became the Secretary of State.

Yes, we definitely could do it. The amounts of money involved, while of course significant, are small relative to the aggregate costs of the NHS or the uplift in spending on the NHS that, with my full support, we have seen in the last couple of years. I think it is a genuine puzzle and a black mark for all of us, including me, that all these years have gone by and we have done nothing. We have a social care system that is supported by millions of wonderful informal carers and about 1.5 million formal carers, benefiting hundreds of thousands of people, but it is creaking under intolerable strain. It really makes no sense to me, and I really do not know why or how we have managed to go for so long without addressing it. We should do so, not only because it is the right thing to do, but because it is now so bad that it is doing direct, instrumental damage to the NHS.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joe Robertson]

Q Hospital pressures on the Isle of Wight are particularly severe, and part of the way of dealing with so-called corridor care is for the hospital and local authority to look at discharging some frail patients to the mainland, including those living with dementia, which is plainly not a solution by anyone’s normal interpretation. Is there anything in this Bill, notwithstanding that it does not deal with the fundamental problems of social care, not only that can help to resolve those sorts of situations, but that could help to resolve them if it went a little further? I am looking for opportunities to use the Bill to try to do a little more in and around discharge and social care.

Sir Andrew Dilnot: That is a very good question, to which I do not have a very immediate answer. Well, I do have an immediate answer, which is that, as far as I can see, it is nothing very substantial.

The single patient record offers some prospects here, and it is terribly important for people receiving social care, which again reflects how much longer we are living. There is much more multiple morbidity now. Many of the people who can and are benefiting from social care will have quite complicated medical experiences and histories. That is the kind of group that could particularly benefit from a single patient record, so that we are not having inappropriate prescription and so on. That is going to help, but it will be a second-order issue.

Let me be very blunt. There are two fundamental challenges facing the social care system. The first is that the means-tested bit of it, where we say, “If you don’t have any resources of your own, the state will look after you,” must be a minimum for any humane society. Essentially every year for at least the last decade, the Treasury has announced emergency funding for that in year. That money then does not get spent well. Honestly, if you are announcing an emergency package every year for 10 years, it is not an emergency package. You should wake up, pay attention, have a mature response and fund that system properly. That is the minimum.

The second is that the only big risk we all face that is not pooled is social care. Our risk of healthcare is pooled by the state, our risk of having a car accident or our house burning down is pooled by private insurance. This is the one risk that is not pooled, and the reason is that the state does not, and the private sector cannot. The reason the private sector cannot is that it is too far ahead for a private insurance market to deal with it, so only the state can pool the risk. If there is any area where the case for social insurance is absolutely clear, it is social care; the case is even more powerful in social care than it is in health.

At the moment we have a situation where often people will feel that the best thing that can happen to them, if they think they might have a social care need, is that they die before too long. It is a bit like standing in the middle of the road with a lorry driving towards you and hoping that the best thing that might happen is that you die before it hits you. That is not a good way to be running any kind of society or country. Those challenges—the lack of adequate funding of the means-tested system and the lack of any risk pooling for the population as a whole—lead directly to the kind of experience that you are describing in the Isle of Wight, where there is simply excess demand and so we are trying to ship people across to the mainland. It is a reflection of the fundamental challenges that we have ignored for 35 years.

[Dr Johnson]

Q You have talked a lot about adult social care in terms of the very elderly and frail and people with dementia, but it also affects younger people. For example, Swallow Lodge, which is a facility for working-age adults in my constituency, is under threat of closure. I and others have made the arguments about how it is a lifeline that allows the families to have a break and the individuals using the service to flourish and enjoy life, but there is an economic argument too. How well do you think that is understood? Closing such a place could lead to higher costs for the NHS in mental health or physical health support, further social care admissions and the like.

Sir Andrew Dilnot: You are absolutely right to emphasise the importance of non-elderly adult social care, which is roughly half of all of the expenditure and growing. One reason that we see particular pressures in the elderly care sphere is that the less-elderly need has grown very dramatically, again because of the scope for increased human flourishing.

On the whole, as far as I can see, there is very little understanding of the integrated nature of these costs between social care and the NHS, so I think there is very little thinking in budgetary terms about the consequences of the squeeze on social care leading to increased expenditure and needs elsewhere in the NHS. That is not easy to resolve. Moving to a system that properly integrates those trade-offs will be difficult, and it requires a different sort of funding regime, but while we do not, those costs exist. My sense is that they are second order at the national level, but where they are certainly not second order is for the individuals concerned and their families, for whom this kind of thing is an eruption of anxiety and grief, in the context that families are already under pressures that most of us would find hard to imagine.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much indeed, Sir Andrew, for affording us the benefit of your considerable knowledge in this area, and thank you again for your patience. We are most grateful to you.

Sir Andrew Dilnot: Thank you. I am delighted that you are thinking about social care in the context of this Bill.

Examination of Witness

Karin Smyth gave evidence.

[The Chair]

Minister, for the sake of the record, would you identify yourself, please?

Karin Smyth: I am Karin Smyth, the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Social Care.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Minister, you have previously said:

“The reorganisation of health services always distracts from people’s jobs, destroys morale and wastes money”.—[Official Report, 22 September 2020; Vol. 680, c. 809.]

In response to a written question this week, though, which asked what assessment you have made of the disruption of development of new services caused by the abolition of NHS England, you said:

“The abolition of NHS England is causing no disruption to the development of new services.”

I wonder which of those statements you agree with the most and whether you want to change your mind in the light of any of the evidence you have heard today.

Karin Smyth: I do not know exactly what year you are quoting from, but I am happy to take that full on. Of course, change, reorganisations and changes in legislation have consequences at different times depending on what they are. That will determine changes to some services at local level.

I think that quote probably relates to the 2012 changes, which, as I have often said, brought me into Parliament. The entire infrastructure of the health service was destroyed and changed in order to bring forward that legislation. I can never find anybody—I think I have heard Lord Lansley say this—who thinks that was a good thing. I am very happy to say that part of the rationale was the fact that, despite lots of warnings about the damage to that infrastructure, that lesson was not learned. We will not go through the history of the passage of that Act. It even had to be paused mid-way through to enact other ways of making things work.

I am sure that you will come back in your second question to decisions about some of the provisions in this Bill. It is true, and a matter of record, that as an incoming Government we did not intend to abolish NHS England as an organisation; in our determination to change the outcomes of the health service, that decision was made some eight months into our being in government. Today, we have not heard a single person suggest that that decision is wrong. Dr Johnson is from the Opposition. The Bill was not opposed in principle on Second Reading. There is overwhelming consensus on the major provision in the Bill—the abolition of NHS England—and on the single patient record.

I am mindful, on a personal level, of the consequences for individual people’s jobs and of trying to get that right. I accept much of the criticism from Mr Restell about how it would be better to do it much more quickly, and about making sure that it is done in a different way, but the consequences of abolishing NHS England are some of the things that we are seeing.

[Dr Johnson]

Q May I press you on the answer to my first question before I move on to the next? In the light of what you have heard today, do you want to correct your statement this week, in response to a written question, that the abolition of NHS England is “causing no disruption”—yes or no?

Karin Smyth: In terms of service delivery—I think the written question was about delivering services— I stand by that.

[Dr Johnson]

Q My next question is about the vision. My right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston spoke earlier about his reforms of the past, and there was a coherent vision to those, but today we have heard that there is not really a plan. On the single patient record and other aspects of the Bill, lots of decisions have yet to be made. You are asking people to move from here to there without specifying where “there” is. Is this ready? Are you trying to get to a landing place that you understand as a coherent vision, or are you just trying to unpick things that somebody did before and that you did not like?

Karin Smyth: Do you mean the future state of ICBs?

[Dr Johnson]

No, I mean the system as a whole. My right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston spoke earlier about how ICBs were designed to link in with upper-tier local authorities, and he gave a reason why. Under these reforms, Lincolnshire ICB, which was part of a mayoral authority, will now link in with Derbyshire and with Nottinghamshire, which are part of another mayoral authority but not a complete mayoral authority. You have things jumbled up. I wonder whether that is because, rather than having a vision, you have started to unpick somebody else’s work because you did not like it. Likewise, with the single patient record, we have heard that lots of necessary decisions were not made before the Bill was introduced, so people are being asked to deliver things that have not been properly considered. Is that fair?

Karin Smyth: I think they are two separate things. On the provision made in the Bill, abolishing NHS England brings with it a lot of technical detail to ensure that the legal responsibilities and duties are placed, rightly, on the Secretary of State and into ICBs. It clarifies the landscape on very technical matters such as licences and foundation trusts, and there is a large chunk of detail on the consequences of abolishing NHS England.

Alongside that, there is a move to give ICBs a larger footprint, in parallel with the Government’s agenda on devolution. I accept that that is a lot of change in all our constituencies and for all our areas. We are making sure that we make the most of mayoral authorities to allow mayors to be on ICBs, as they are largely determiners of a lot of economic development, transport and indeed the wider determinants of health. We are still going through some of that change; you will recently have been written to for your views on it as local Members of Parliament, along with local government. We need to make sure that that is embedded as quickly as possible so that we can stabilise that side of the system.

On the single patient record, the Bill will provide enabling powers to bring it forward in regulations. There will be further detailed consultation both with clinicians and with patients and the public, as we have heard, because building trust is critical. That will come next, which is usual in parliamentary terms: as legislators we understand that primary legislation makes provision and secondary legislation sets out regulation. I thought Dr Byrne was very helpful earlier on the point about bringing public trust with us and explaining the two stages of bringing this forward.

[Dr Johnson]

Q We have heard a lot about independence: the independence of HSSIB, its ability to independently investigate and independently recommend, and Healthwatch’s ability to independently describe patient voice without interference from those whose homework it is marking. Do you have any reflections on the Bill and what it contains in the light of what you have heard?

Karin Smyth: There is a fundamental philosophical, and perhaps political, difference in the approach that this Government are taking compared with what has gone before, in terms of the notion of responsibility and accountability for both commissioning and delivering services, and the position of independence. We talked earlier today about perception and reality.

The system has not worked. To my earlier question— I think I said this on Second Reading—we have had what is called an independent voice in some of these bodies for over 50 years, and we have had numerous recommendations. I disagree with Jeremy Hunt on this. Under his stewardship of the new NHS England, we had a plethora of recommendations and new organisations, and layer upon layer of bureaucracy, totally remote from any kind of democratic accountability or oversight. That is not working, and I do not think that anybody is really defending that.

It is the job of the NHS—both providers and commissioners—to include patient voice and patient experience in their work. I think Ciarán Devane from the NHS Alliance said that getting boards right, in terms of their managerial, clinical and patient experience work, is their responsibility. Outsourcing lots of that work to other bodies has not worked, and I think it is outsourcing that responsibility. We have to make boards work at a local level; they have to step up to the plate, and I think they want to. They are certainly equipped to be able to do that—not taking into account that people will need some skilling in some of these areas. There is a debate to be had about independent organisations, and I think we will have a good debate on it in Committee.

As a final comment before you come back, this is a bit of a bugbear of mine, and perhaps as I am speaking on behalf of the Department I should not say it, but I will: none of my constituents are hard to reach—not a single one of them. We know exactly where they are; we largely know what is wrong with them; we largely know what their health outcomes are going to be; we know their ethnicity, demographics and so on. What are hard to reach are the remote organisations that have not served them well, and that is what we are determined to put right. Putting that right in this Bill is the start of doing that.

[Dr Johnson]

Q The question was really about trust, and how people can be trusting of figures. For example, with Healthwatch, if you internalise patient experience into an organisation, do people then trust you when you say that it has got better? They will have only their own experience and the experience of their own family to work on; that will be the lens through which they look at things. We know that the waiting list numbers have come down, and there is not widespread trust in those numbers, for all sorts of reasons. If the numbers for patient experience are governed by the Department of Health, or the ICBs themselves marking their own homework, will the public trust them? Whether they should trust them is one question, but will they trust them?

Karin Smyth: I will come back to the waiting lists, but you are absolutely right about trust. In saying that I expect this to be the board’s job, I think it is its job to get this right, and we need to support it to do that. We heard a bit from Penny Dash about the national quality board and the patient experience directorate inside the Department of Health and Social Care reporting directly to the chief executive and the permanent secretary. That has to be part of the wider architecture, which is of course outside the Bill, so we need to be able to tell that story to the wider public.

We know from all the recommendations, reviews and the support that we give as Members of Parliament to our constituents that trust is really important. Getting that right and bringing people on that journey with us will be really important. Independence helps with that, and that it is why it is good to debate it as we consider the Bill—it is good to be able to air some of it—but I think people accept that things are not working and have not been working.

I think your question about waiting lists is about the data and the information that says where we are at. It is really complex. To follow NHS England’s data, of which there is a lot—I commend the amount of data that is available—you need to be quite clever at spreadsheets, and at finding and articulating data, in order to bring it back to your own constituency and local place. These things are complex. It is complex to record, track and recognise how people move through a waiting list, for example.

It is good that we are transparent about that. One thing that I am keen to push out is data on performance in trusts. Making so-called league tables is controversial, but the more information that we have out there, and the more we have honest debates about how complex and difficult it is—I am happy to take your questions around how that moves in order to for us to explain that—the more that helps to build trust.

[Liz Twist]

Q Minister, we have talked a lot today about ICBs, the local government Healthwatch and the single patient record, and we have heard some interesting comments. Can you summarise why you believe it is important that we look at this legislation now?

Karin Smyth: I will come to the single patient record because I think it is a gamechanger. We have heard today from some fantastic experts about the work they are doing to identify how it might work and how we might bring patients and the public with us. Again— I do not think we should just bank this—we have not heard anybody object to it.

We did have some evidence highlighting how things have gone wrong in the past. I worked at a primary care trust and clinical commissioning group at the time when care.data was brought forward. We can all point to where it has gone wrong, but nobody has said that this is not the right thing to do. That is good, but there is still a lot of detail to go through.

We need to keep highlighting the benefits. We heard from Peter Prinsley about whether patients have more control—we do think this is about empowering patients. That was what we said in the 10-year plan. The 10-year plan is about empowering patients in this very large system, for which they are now paying £200 billion of their taxes.

We heard from the excellent clinical panel. I defer to clinicians about what they need, both if they are dealing with chronic long-term conditions—we heard that it can sometimes take two and a half hours for an assessment—or if they are working in a busy emergency department. The fact that this is needed will be controversial. There will be a lot of questions about it and a lot of concern about privacy, data, cyber and so on. We need to hold on to those benefits, which are huge in clinical terms and for patients.

Another point we heard, which is also true, is that people think this already happens. People do not understand why, when they turn up at an A&E in Whitby, as we heard, or somewhere else, and then go back to central London, the systems cannot talk to each other. For me, that is about people’s trust and belief in what is a public service. It is a really important part of that.

On abolishing NHS England, I do not think anyone has come to one of my constituency surgeries and said, “Please do this,” or talked about it in great detail, but people do understand. My experience in opposition and so far in government is that MPs are perplexed when they try to intervene on behalf of patients, or to get an answer locally as to why on earth chief executives of ICBs or trusts sometimes do not respond even to a Member of Parliament’s requests for meetings. I find that shocking, but it does happen. How on earth is a patient or somebody struggling through the system expected to get a response? Getting it right is not black and white, and it is not easy to get the balance right between the Secretary of State’s democratic oversight and autonomy at a local level, but the Bill starts the process of doing that, and it is fundamentally important.

Regarding the other provisions, I accept that great work has been done by many people in Healthwatch and its predecessor organisations, and by people working in the patient safety landscape, but again it is not working. I think that those bodies have been allowed to abdicate responsibility for the core role of patient experience and patient voice. That is not their homework; it is their actual job. It is not something that should be outside, and that is why I think this Bill is really important.