Caroline Flint
Main Page: Caroline Flint (Labour - Don Valley)Department Debates - View all Caroline Flint's debates with the Department for Work and Pensions
(14 years ago)
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Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)
Does the hon. Lady agree with councillors in Hastings who have expressed concern about the additional pressures that the Government’s policies will impose on their local community, including additional costs for education and children’s services?
Amber Rudd
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for making that point, because it is exactly the one with which I am about to deal. Earlier in the debate, we heard about sensational articles in newspapers and unrealistic reporting. I am afraid that Hastings has been on the receiving end of quite a lot of that. I have spoken to the councillors who made those comments and to our director of housing, Andrew Palmer, who has done excellent work. I asked him how many London councils had made inquiries of him, and he said none. I asked him whether he had had an opportunity to speak to the people who run the bed-and-breakfast establishments that he very rarely uses—although he has had to do so occasionally—and to the landlords whom he uses for the purposes of the local housing allowance. He said that he had spoken to all of them, and that not one of them had received such an inquiry.
I strongly believe that we have been reading sensationalist reports in the newspapers. There is an apocalyptic vision of a group of Londoners arriving on the south coast, but it simply is not happening. I think it important to repeat that so that people do not become fearful. They do not have to believe what is said by the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) about extra pressure on education establishments, because that is not happening at the moment.
We hope that rents will fall. Members will not be surprised to hear that I agree with much that has been said by Conservative Members about reducing rents. The right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) spoke of the unrealistic aspect of falling house rents, and referred to an article in the Evening Standard that focused mainly on larger houses. In my constituency at least, between 80% and 90% of people who receive local housing allowance live in homes with one to two bedrooms. The larger house element does not feature so much, although it represents a large cost. I am told by Westminster council, whose representatives I have consulted, that house prices in its area are falling rather than rising.
Nick de Bois
I will not give way at the moment. I want to finish my speech, but if there is time I will happily take a further intervention later.
A four-bedroom house will allow almost £20,000 of LHA, which is equivalent to a substantial amount of gross income. We talk about fairness, but it must work both ways. Hon. Members should come with me down the Hertford road in my constituency to meet those who are working hard to pay their rent and trying to look after their family on a low income. They should try to understand the frustration of living next door to people who may be living in a bigger house, subsidised by the state. We must bear that in mind when making judgments. We are all in this together, and we must reform and change.
The Labour Government believed that the answer to defeating poverty was to use targets and money—some £20 billion of our money in housing benefit. They rationalised that that was how to fix the problem, but it failed. It did not help; it hindered. Instead of releasing those in poverty and suffering inequality, it imprisoned many in a spiral of unwelcome state dependency. The time has come to change. Our proposals are part of a holistic, joined-up programme.
Caroline Flint
My understanding is that nearly 7,000 people will lose out as a result of the cuts in Enfield. What does the hon. Gentleman have to say to them?
Nick de Bois
The hon. Lady should change the end of the telescope she is looking down. She should look at what she can do to encourage employment and encourage people back to work, and start to take people out of real poverty. That is the contribution that she could make, and I hope that I can welcome her to such a conversion later this evening.
Our proposals are part of a holistic, joined-up programme to reform the Labour party’s policy of surrender to dependency to a future of independence free from poverty. I understand that hon. Members do not want to hear that, but they have heard and perhaps they will learn.
Andrew Bingham
That may be the case in the hon. Lady’s constituency, but there are examples where people are keeping the money as change. I will pay slight tribute to Labour Members, as they were going to stop that in April next year. Fair do’s there. However, that needs to be compared with what the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) said, as he spoke about taking money away. I gather that £15 of weekly excess was taken away last year. How do they square that one?
The £20,000 to £21,000 cap on housing benefit is fair. Some people have claimed that that amount is too much, but I think it is about right. I also think that setting the local housing allowance at the 30th percentile point is fair. It means that people on housing benefit can afford three out of 10 rental properties.
From experience, however, I would like to sound a small note of caution about broad market rental areas. The determination and review of BMRAs must be done with great care. The Rent Service looked at the BMRA in my constituency. Glossop was covered as well, but because of the determination and conditions, there was a detrimental impact on some residents in my constituency. This issue was raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) and for North East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald), and it is a slight concern of mine. One thing that came out of the Rent Service review was the Heffernan case, which went to the House of Lords—some Members may be aware of it, some not. It caused a long delay—hence my note of caution.
The increase in the discretionary housing allowance has not been much mentioned. It is increasing by £10 million next year, £40 million a year from 2012 to 2015, and £60 million a year from 2013-14. This is a huge amount. The DHA was used to deal with the difficulties of the BMRA in High Peak a couple of years ago.
The reform of housing benefit is long overdue. At present, we spend more on it than on the Army and Navy combined. It is right to offer people support when they need it, and it is right that the extra money is available through the discretionary housing allowance.
Andrew Bingham
I will not give way, as I have nearly finished and many others are waiting to speak. [Interruption.] I can talk as long as anyone wants, but I am conscious that some Members have been in their places a long time and are waiting to speak.
It is wrong that hard-working families in my constituency and others who are living within tight budgets—
Caroline Flint
The hon. Gentleman welcomes the announcement of a rise in the amount provided for the discretionary housing allowance. How would he feel if those payments were paid to the landlords of the very occupiers of homes that the coalition Government have demonised by letting them stay in houses that cost so much money? What does he feel about that?
Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)
We have had a good debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd), for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg), my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), my hon. Friends the Members for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) and for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), my right hon. Friends the Members for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) and for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), my hon. Friends the Members for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham), for Streatham (Mr Umunna), for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson), for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) on their measured contributions to the debate. They focused on facts and their constituents, and they raised concerns about the impact of the policies and the lack of evidence to clarify them. They asked the coalition Government to consider how their policies may lead to unfortunate consequences for their constituents in many ways. They came forward with ideas for reform. They raised concern about ending up with more polarised communities, and they talked about equality. Most importantly, they tried to address the issue.
The hon. Members for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), for Colchester (Bob Russell), for Wells (Tessa Munt) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made meaningful contributions. They, too, raised their concerns about the effect of the policies on their constituents. I am sure that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) would have made a similar point about the people she represents.
Pete Wishart
The right hon. Lady promised to say whether the Labour party is planning to introduce a cap. How much would that be, and how would a nice new Labour cap differ from a nasty Tory cap?
Caroline Flint
I assure the hon. Gentleman that I will come to that.
Those colleagues—I call them colleagues because the substance of their speeches suggest that they may join us in the Lobby tonight—may be interested to know that the Minister for Housing referred to the Hull city council leader, Carl Minns, who is a Liberal Democrat, as a “motormouth” when he raised concerns about the impact of some of the Government’s policies on people in Hull. Lord Shipley, a former leader of Newcastle city council, said that the private rented sector had been a “cornerstone” in stopping the use of bed and breakfast in Newcastle and that he did
“not wish to return to the days when we did…My concern is that the local housing allowance changes may restrict access to private rented accommodation and therefore limit the capacity of councils generally to resolve future housing need.”
Those thoughts echo many of the comments that have been made.
It is a shame that not one Minister from the Department for Communities and Local Government is on the Benches at the end of these proceedings. Clearly, the Minister for Housing does not believe that it is worth while sitting alongside his colleagues from the Department for Work and Pensions to consider how to address reform of housing benefit and housing supply, which many of my hon. Friends and a few hon. Members raised. That is a great shame.
We are not opposed to reform. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) made that very clear. We are not against caps in the housing benefit system, as long as they do not make people homeless or cost us more in the long run. We do not have an objection to asking younger single adults on housing benefit to live in a shared house or flat, but we must be sure that there is enough supply to accommodate everyone, and to recognise that some single people may have particular needs that require them to be accommodated in a different way. We will look at how non-dependant deductions can be made, provided they do not result in people suddenly finding themselves unable to live in their homes with an elderly relative, for example. We are willing to consider some temporary changes to the uprating of benefits so long as that does not permanently break the link between the rent that people pay and the help that they receive.
We also believe that cutting the local housing allowance to the 30th percentile will have a huge impact, which is not to be desired. About 700,000 of the poorest people, in work and out of work, will be on average at least £9 a week worse off. We recognise the need for reform but, as in other areas, such reform should be staged over a number of years and be more limited.
Bob Russell
During the 13 years of the previous Labour Government, I put forward various proposals to them in more than 50 parliamentary questions. Does the right hon. Lady accept that, had the Government in which she served listened to and acted on those proposals, we would not be in this situation now?
Caroline Flint
I am closing this debate on behalf of the Opposition and we want to consider some points that hon. Members have made. We also believe that housing should be looked at in the round, in regard not only to benefit reform but to housing supply.
Let us look at some of the other points that have been raised. We heard from the Government that housing benefit was out of control, but it was not. The housing benefit bill did go up as a result of the economic downturn because, as people lost their jobs or were forced to work reduced hours, they needed more help to prevent them from becoming homeless. In the past two years, there have been 250,000 new cases of people in work claiming local housing allowance. Overall, however, as a proportion of total Government spending on benefits and tax credits, housing benefit has stayed stable at 14% for the past 20 years.
Caroline Flint
No, I am going to make some progress.
We have also heard from the Government that their plans will save money. However, if they do not think their policies through and consider their impact on people, they could end up costing more than they save. The Government say that the cap will save £65 million. Others say that its consequences—uprooting families, forcing them out of their homes and into temporary accommodation—could cost nearly twice that. We have heard that the Government intend to increase the amount for discretionary housing payments, but I seemed to hear them say that they would use that money to pay the people who they say should not be in those homes to stay in them. Instead of using housing benefit for that purpose, they are going to use discretionary housing payments. That is a smokescreen too far.
The Government like to say that these reforms will help people into work, but pricing hundreds of thousands of working people out of whole swaths of the country, often where most of the jobs are, will make it more difficult, not less, for people to find work and keep their jobs.
Caroline Flint
The hon. Gentleman was not here for the debate, so I will not give way.
Reducing people’s housing benefit when they have been out of work for a year does not help them to get a job. It punishes them for not having one, and we reject that entirely. The Government say that reducing housing benefit will bring rents down. Landlords themselves tell us otherwise, however, with 90% saying that they will be less likely to take on people on housing benefit. That means that there will be more people chasing fewer homes, which will drive rents up, not bring them down.
Caroline Flint
The Secretary of State might say that, but I find it difficult to understand, given the question marks over the impact on rents of the Government’s plans, why they are not doing a more thorough job of getting the evidence to prove that their policies are right. I have heard the Minister for Housing—who is not here tonight; he obviously does not think it worth while—say on a number of occasions that he has evidence to back up his idea that rents will go down, but he has refused to provide that evidence. We have seen no sign of it.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich and my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield made strong points about the rented sector. They said that the Government’s policies on housing benefit reform and their lack of a plan for housing supply would do nothing to tackle the issue of rents. Let us be honest about this: the Government have completely rejected the findings of the Rugg review, which we initiated to tackle some of the problems in the private rented sector.
Much has been said about our record on housing, so let me say something about that. Two million more homes were built, there are now 500,000 more affordable homes and 1 million more homeowners, and 1.5 million homes have been brought up to a decent standard. Homelessness was cut by 75%, and no family spends longer than six weeks in a bed and breakfast. In the face of the global financial crisis, the worst of its kind for 70 years, Labour did not walk by on the other side. We took action and supported families to stay in their homes. We prevented 300,000 families who might otherwise have lost their homes—and who would have lost their homes had the Tories been in power—from doing so. That is the reality. That is our record, and it stands in contrast to the mess the Tories left us.
Many thought that bringing so many homes up to a decent standard in such a short space of time would prove impossible. It did not. However, it did come at the cost of not building as many homes as we would have wanted. I agree with the hon. Member for Colchester and some of my hon. Friends who have referenced that tonight. Let us not forget that the reason why we had to focus on decent homes and bring them up to standard was the desperate situation we inherited from the last Conservative Government in 1997.
Caroline Flint
The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell), who is not in his place, helpfully points out on his website that there were 400,000 fewer homes after the Tories’ 18 years in power. Of the stock that did remain, the last Conservative Government knowingly, wilfully and shamefully allowed so much of it to get into such a state of disrepair that when we came to office in 1997, we faced a maintenance backlog of £19 billion, with 2.3 million homes below a decent standard. Pensioners were unable to heat their homes, and children were made ill because of the damp, mouldy and overcrowded homes they were forced to live in. That is the Tories’ record, and we are not going to let them forget it.
Caroline Flint
Conservative plans today are no better. The Minister for Housing likes to say that his Government will build more affordable homes every year than we built in 13 years. [Hon. Members: “Give way.”] I will give way to the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng).
Caroline Flint
The hon. Gentleman should look at Hansard. I said quite clearly that we are not against looking at caps, and we are prepared to look at regional variations as well, but that would have to be planned and done properly over time.
Let me tell the Housing Minister that last year, in the teeth of recession, we built more homes in one year than the Government will build in any of the next five years. Since this Government came to power, local councils have ditched plans for new homes at the rate of 1,300 every single day. In the comprehensive spending review, the housing budget was demolished by devastating cuts of more than 50%. As a result, according to the independent National Housing Federation, once the homes Labour started building are completed, no new social homes at all will be built in the next five years.
Mr Duncan Smith
In response to the right hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), she has said for the first time in this debate—her right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State has also said it—that Labour Members are in favour of a cap. Will they please explain something to us? We have put our proposals forward. What level of cap do they now favour?
Caroline Flint
We have said quite clearly—not just today, but in a speech my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South made last Friday and in an article that I wrote last week—that we will look at the issue of caps. What we have said is that whatever cap is chosen on whatever basis, it must be planned, phased in and must ensure that people are not turfed out of their homes, put into bed-and-breakfast accommodation or made homeless. The Tories have not been able to answer any of those questions.
The fact is that one part of Government is working on one track for housing benefit reform, but there is no joined-up thinking with the Department for Communities and Local Government on housing supply. That is not a plan of action for housing, but a recipe for chaos and it does nothing to help cut the housing benefit bill. It is not only Labour Members who say that; dozens of Tory MPs have been to see the Secretary of State to tell him why these plans will not work. We have heard about the Conservative Mayor of London and we know that Tory council leaders across the south-east have warned that the dispersal of people that these policies will create will place an unbearable burden on services that are already stretched to breaking point.
There is a better way of doing this. We want to reform housing benefit, but in a way that is fair and that does not end up costing us more than it saves. I urge Liberal Democrat Members and perhaps a few on the Tory Benches to join us in the Lobby and speak up for their constituents.