Animal Welfare (Exports)

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Neil Parish]

I endorse my hon. Friend’s comments about EBLEX, which is doing a good job in promoting our lamb and beef abroad. On this occasion, I will be magnanimous and say that Welsh lamb, Scottish lamb, English lamb and west country lamb are all wonderful. I will not tell Members which one I think is the best, but they will probably have a fairly good idea.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

The west country is in England!

[Neil Parish]

Parts of the west country are in England, but I will not enter into that debate this afternoon.

It is essential for us to deal with the issue in a grown-up manner. I thank the Minister for the steps he has already taken and look forward to hearing his winding-up speech. As the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife has said, perhaps there is now a case for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee to look at the issue, in order to see exactly how the trade is being conducted, to make sure that the rules are in place and to double-check whether the lorries, other vehicles and all those involved are operating it correctly.

If sheep or cattle that are not lame or ill, which is exactly as they should be, are loaded on to and transported in the right type of lorry, they should get to their destination in France, Ireland or wherever it be—that is a Somerset expression—in good condition, and that is what the industry wants. I reinforce the point that it is not in the interests of the farming community or those carrying out the trade to take an animal across in poor condition.

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[John McDonnell]

My hon. Friend always knows the point of vulnerability in a debate. I have never been convinced about the economic necessity of live exports, which is why the idea of an inquiry is important. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee is looking at a wide-ranging inquiry into the practical nature of how the industry operates.

As the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion said, we need to address the location of abattoirs and how they operate. By locating, promoting and developing local abattoirs we can overcome the problem of the lengthy journeys that animals take, and particularly any necessity to export live animals.

[Bob Stewart]

I have been listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman and reading about this issue. Surely when the animals see that ramp into a truck they will start panicking. They must panic the whole time and be terrified for the whole journey and that really worries me. I feel so desperately sad for them that I am beginning to think that the way we should proceed is to slaughter at the farm. I know it is difficult, but that is what I am beginning to think.

[John McDonnell]

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) will come back and argue about the practicalities of that for certain geographical locations in the United Kingdom. However, the desire must be to have slaughter as close to the farm as possible and to obviate the need for any long-distance journeys, whether in the UK or to the continent. I am arguing that we should look again seriously at the recommendations of Thanet district council, the RSPCA and others. From experience, every regime so far put in place has not worked. We had another scandalous example with Joline this time round, and there have been others in the past. That is why I support the proposal for an inquiry.

I would prefer the Government to set up an independent inquiry, but if it must be the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, so be it. That Committee can look at animal welfare, the economics of the industry and why there is such economic necessity for live animal exports, as well as at the distribution of abattoirs, which in themselves have the potential to generate employment. It can look at how, if we are to transport animals in the future, we can reassure people that those animals will be safe and secure, and that their welfare will be maintained not only in this country but, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion said, when they reach other countries. In the past we seem to have lost control of what happens to our exported stock in other countries.

That is the short-term practical approach; we need to undertake an inquiry, take on board Thanet district council’s recommendations and introduce an economic debate on this issue. I am also worried about the staffing of individual organisations on which we rely to undertake these tests and checks. I give the example of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. Its offices are being closed, staff are being laid off, and I doubt whether it has the capacity to maintain the vehicle inspection regime that we would expect of it. I am also concerned about staffing in DEFRA and the cutbacks there, and about the resources available to the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency. The inquiry should consider that range of staffing issues because the worst thing that could happen is that we put an inspection regime in place, but the resources and the expertise are not available. That includes the expertise of working alongside voluntary organisations such as the RSPCA. That is the problem with a pragmatic approach in the near future if we do not move towards a ban.

So often, promises have been made, and procedures and regimes have been put in place that have not worked. My view now is therefore that a ban should be introduced because the animal welfare issues are overriding.

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[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right about the popularity of small abattoirs increasing as people become much more aware of the provenance and source of their food. Her first point is also valid, because of the biosecurity risks that result from increased animal movements generally. In my constituency, farmers would summer-pasture their sheep down in the lowlands and in the winter literally drive them on to the top. Come time for market, they would drive the sheep down the old drovers’ route into Blackmill for the market—a grass-based market, not a concrete market—from where they would go straight to the local shops and so on. Those days are gone. We now routinely—because of biosecurity, as well as for other reasons—shift animals in trucks. That brings with it the massive obligation of looking after their welfare.

[Bob Stewart]

Is it not also true that a local abattoir gets better meat because there is less stress on the animals, which directly affects the quality of meat?

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I am not in a position to make a completely evidence-based judgment on that. I can only say that we buy directly from our local abattoir in Maesteg, and the produce is absolutely fantastic.

Badger Cull

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I want to start by commenting on the use of language in the debate. In his statement to the House a couple of days ago, the Secretary of State, who is not in his place, used the words “evidence” 15 times, “scientific” nine times and “science” 16 times. It is interesting to read his qualifications. On his website, he describes himself as having

“read History at Cambridge University”

and that as

“Agriculture spokesman he became an expert on bovine TB and campaigned for the dairy industry.”

We must use language carefully, because it is pushing the boundaries to say one is an expert on a subject. My good friend Lord Krebs, who chairs the sister Committee of mine in the other place, has considerably more expertise on this subject than I have, but I doubt whether he would call himself an expert. It is bold of the Secretary of State to describe himself as an expert.

This subject is hugely complicated. Humans and animals, especially food animals, are far more mobile than they were, so we must take very seriously the risk of zoonotic diseases. If the Government want to do something positive during the so-called closed season, I strongly advise them to invest in research into zoonotic diseases. I am pleased to say that one of this country’s major veterinary schools at Leahurst, which is in my constituency and which the former farming Minister visited, leads the way in zoonotic research.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman, who is not an expert, think that there will be sufficient time before the cull recommences to get a vaccination that works? Most people suggest that we are several years away from that.

[Andrew Miller]

I know that the hon. Gentleman is fascinated with firearms, but shooting badgers will not work either. I do not say that a cull will have no effect; of course it will have an effect. Killing any of the species that carry TB—not just badgers but including cattle—will have an effect, but it will not solve the problem. Indeed, killing every badger will not eradicate bovine TB. I hope that the step proposed by the hon. Gentleman will not prove necessary in years to come, given the work that is being done on the biology, because I believe we can move closer to eradication by investing the huge sums that we are discussing in research programmes aimed at establishing a vaccination regime.

department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)]

I was expecting at least one further subject to be brought up during the debate. [Interruption.] That, like many other wonderful speeches, will be consigned to the filing cabinet of those never to be delivered in this Chamber.

I hope that the House will forgive me if I devote most of my response to dairying, which was the subject of most Members’ speeches. First, though, I will reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson). I am very sorry to hear about the dog attack on his mother. I am pleased to hear that she is recovering, even if she will bear the scars for the rest of her life. He was absolutely right to refer not only to the measures that we have announced but to the importance of dealing with dog owners. As he said, often the problems with dogs are in fact a problem with the owner, either because they do not understand how to control the dog or have the desire to use it as a form of weapon for intimidation or worse. That is why the Home Office proposals on antisocial behaviour will include measures on the use of a dog as a weapon, which will rightly be seen as an antisocial activity and dealt with in that way.

My hon. Friend referred to the measures that I announced on 23 April. The consultation that stemmed from that closed on 15 June. We have begun to analyse the responses and will announce our conclusions as soon as we can. To recap, the most important element was to extend the criminal offence of allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control on private property, which addresses his point about postmen and the many other people who have a legitimate right to come on to one’s property. We are consulting on the compulsory microchipping of dogs—in particular, precisely on how early to do that and whether it should be at the puppy stage. We are increasing the fee for placing a dog on the index of exempted dogs. We are removing the need to seize and kennel all dogs where court proceedings are pending. We are also, as my hon. Friend said, making a grant to the Association of Chief Police Officers for the training of dog legislation officers. I hope that he agrees that we are endeavouring to address an issue that is long overdue.

Dairying and the crisis in the British dairy sector were referred to by at least four Members in their speeches and by others in interventions. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), I had milk cows earlier in my life. I fully recognise the huge crisis that is affecting many people in the sector. As a number of Members have said, some supermarkets that have aligned groups of producers have not cut their prices. However, the processors for many producers cut their prices in May or June and have announced further cuts for 1 August. The cut will total some 3.5p to 4p per litre over the two periods. We now seem to have an industry of haves and have-nots—those who have a supermarket deal and those who do not.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) said, there has been some good news today. Asda has announced that it will increase the premium that it pays its processor, Arla Foods, by 2p a litre, thereby nullifying the cut that Arla has announced. In other words, the producers affected will not face a cut on 1 August. From memory, that is about 227 producers. Dairy Crest has announced today that, in future, it will require only three months’ notice when producers leave their contracts, and it has guaranteed that it will give four weeks’ notice of any price cut.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have been listening to the debate and, although I do not know much about this subject, it seems to me that we should somehow ensure that price cuts are not passed on to the dairy farmer. The big supermarkets should take whatever they wish, but they should not pass it on to the milk farmers.

[Mr Paice]

My hon. Friend’s point is properly made and is an important one.

I will concentrate on the issues that need to be addressed. I fully recognise that what matters to the dairy farmer is the price that they are paid. However, as several hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber have said, it is not simply a matter of reversing the price cuts, although that is what the producers want. We need something more substantial and more permanent than that.

As I say frequently outside this place, we have an obsession in this country with the liquid market and with the desire of our processors to gain bottling contracts for supermarkets. They keep undercutting each other to keep their bottling plants at full capacity. When, as has happened on this occasion, cream prices collapse and they face major problems, the only way in which they can recoup any income is by cutting the price for their producers to below the cost of production. That is a direct consequence of the obsession with bottling for supermarkets.

As several hon. Members have said, and as is abundantly clear, there are ample other opportunities for investment. Some 20% of our total dairy consumption is imported. The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) talked about imports. We do not import liquid milk. All the imports are dairy products, but they nevertheless make up a significant part of our total consumption.

What are our processors doing to combat that? One or two are trying to do something. Dairy Crest has gained back some of the cheese market with one of its products and it should be congratulated on that, but there is still much to do. Where do the supermarkets with aligned dairy groups, which pay a premium for their liquid milk, get their own-label brands? Where are their other dairy products, such as their yoghurt, produced? Do they use British milk? In many cases, they do not. There is therefore a great opportunity for import substitution.

There is an even greater opportunity for exports. The world is crying out for increased dairy products. Yes, global prices have fallen back and that is part of the immediate problem that we face. However, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) that if I was asked whether I would encourage a young person to go into dairy farming, my unequivocal answer would be yes, because I am convinced that there is a long-term future beyond today’s crisis.

Flooding

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

As I have indicated, good progress has been made. I spoke to the annual general meeting of the Association of British Insurers last month to indicate to the insurers that we were close to reaching agreement on a basis that will guarantee the universality and affordability of insurance.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I was in Rossendale last Friday night and I have never seen rain like that before in the United Kingdom. It was shocking. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that when there is warning that flooding is likely, one person in the north-west, or in any other region where flooding might occur, is responsible for rapidly co-ordinating the emergency resources?

[Mrs Spelman]

I can give that assurance to my hon. Friend, who, with his military background, will know the importance of a command and control structure. The response is linked to the severity of the risk. There is a very clear structure involving silver and gold commands, led respectively by the police and the local authority, which ensures that wherever such an event takes place—he is right that we are seeing extreme weather events with increasing frequency—a tried and tested procedure clicks into place. We practised that structure last year in Exercise Watermark.

Common Fisheries Policy

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Peter Aldous]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I am conscious of the fact that Samuel Richards, who built a lot of the trawlers over the past century or so, was originally a Cornishman who moved up to Lowestoft where he set up his shipyard. In Lowestoft, people used to be able to walk across the trawl basin, from one trawler to the next, but now we have no more than 15 under-10 metre boats and we cannot do that. It is not just trawlers and the fishermen who go; the whole supply chain is affected, too. Remarkably, despite that utter devastation, the infrastructure is still in place in Lowestoft, and that is what we now need to save.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have been listening carefully to my hon. Friend. My constituency is miles from the coast, but it does seem that the CFP is a disaster and that things are going to be really dreadful. A little fisherman—one in the under-10 metre fleet—will have to be illegal or will go out of business, as is clear in Lowestoft. Does he agree with that perception?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Before the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) starts speaking again, may I remind hon. Members that we have an 11-minute time limit? We are going to overshoot because of interventions, so either the interventions will have to decrease or the time limit will go down. Time has not been docked from the hon. Gentleman, but we will not conclude this debate on time if we do not follow that approach.

Food Prices and Food Poverty

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I shall do my very best, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am the first Liberal Democrat speaker, and I regret the fact that we have only six minutes. Of course, I am not criticising you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

There are no more Liberals here.

[Andrew George]

The hon. Gentleman has only just arrived in the Chamber, so I advise him not to start.

I welcome the fact that the Opposition have introduced this important debate, the full title of which is, “Rising Food Prices and Food Poverty”. That is appropriate, although I notice that the motion is rather narrow, and refers primarily to the groceries code adjudicator. Following my intervention on the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), I urge the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), when he replies to the debate, to ensure that the Opposition reflect carefully on the drafting error in the motion, which sends an unhelpful message to those of us who believe that the primary message of today’s debate concerns the speed of the introduction of the groceries code adjudicator. I urge him to withdraw the motion when he has an opportunity to do so. It is vital that we send a strong, clear message through our debate.

I acknowledge the point that many Members have made about the impact of food poverty and the fact that people have to choose between paying their rent and eating, or between paying their heating bill and eating. Nowhere does that apply more than in my constituency, which has been at the bottom of the earnings league table for years, pretty much since records began. Tragically and regrettably, a food bank is required in Penzance, which is strictly managed by an excellent team of volunteers led by David Mann, Brenda Fox and others, who do very good work. They consider it a matter of enormous regret that such things are needed.

I welcome other topics raised by the hon. Member for Wakefield, including the importance of maintaining regulation by the Gangmasters Licensing Authority and ensuring that agricultural workers are properly remunerated for their work. She expressed dismay at the failure to introduce the grocery code adjudicator. I remind her of the dismay that many of us felt at the failure of the previous Government to act in this area. However, those who have followed the debate over many years recognise that this is a matter on which there is cross-party consensus.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), who was mentioned earlier, the former Member for Stroud, David Drew, who did some excellent work in this area, the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), who is the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning—Members across all parties—have recognised that the abuse of power by the supermarkets is unacceptable.

In its 2008 report the Competition Commission recognised that there was a climate of fear in the supply chain. That had been identified by the Office of Fair Trading report in 2004, when it reviewed the failure of the then supermarket code of practice and the urgent need for a grocery supply code of practice. As a result of the Competition Commission’s work, that has been in place since February 2010, but it is a little like a game of rugby without a referee. It is all very well having the rules in place, but if there is no one to enforce them, we do not know that rampant abuses of power are not occurring within the supermarket sector.

I declare an involvement as the chair of the Grocery Market Action Group, which includes representatives from the National Farmers Union, Friends of the Earth, the Association of Convenience Stores, the British Brands Group and other organisations. Since 2006 we have been providing evidence to the Competition Commission and pushing for an adjudicator. We have made the point that we need a supermarket watchdog that has proactive powers, can take information anonymously, can receive third-party and trade association evidence, and follow that through to an inquiry. Of course it is important that an adjudicator should not be able to go on fishing expeditions and waste the time and resources of supermarkets and their suppliers in undertaking pointless inquiries. That will sort itself out over time.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy]

I do, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his support. We all want to honour the military covenant; there is no doubt about that across the House. We might sometimes disagree about how best to achieve that, but I think sorting out our coronial system is key to it, and appointing a chief coroner, as agreed on a cross-party basis previously, certainly honours the covenant.

Some polling has been undertaken on this issue, so I can inform the House what the public appear to think about this important matter. Recent polling conducted by ComRes tells us that eight out of 10 people believe the way we treat bereaved armed forces families says a lot about our values as a nation. A further 85% say that families deserve as much support as we can possibly give through the system, while three quarters agree that Britain owes a great debt to the families of those who sacrifice their lives in the service of the country. Furthermore, more than three quarters say we must support the families of deceased armed forces personnel in order to honour the memory of those who have given their lives. That is something that I am sure is shared on all sides.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I am not quite sure what that means. Does my hon. Friend mean to say that independent coroners do not currently support the families or does he think that the imposition of a chief coroner will make it better for them? I am quite taken by the idea that we already have independent coroners who talk on behalf of the families and say some things we do not like. I am concerned that a chief coroner might put orders down that people have to obey. I like the independence of coroners.

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for that intervention, as it demonstrates why the Government’s position does exactly the opposite to what he wants. By placing this in the hands of Ministers, which is what the Government propose, rather than in the hands of a chief coroner, we risk losing independence completely. As to going through the coronial system, sadly, some people have gone through it and have been treated appallingly. I shall provide some examples later. My hon. Friend’s intervention rather supports my arguments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Dugher]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Before the recent legislation, review after review of the coroner system recommended that a chief coroner was the only way to bring about the required changes. In 2003, the Luce review, a fundamental review into death certification and investigation, found that the coroner system was outdated, inconsistent and unsympathetic to families. One of its headline recommendations was for the establishment of a chief coroner position to handle appeals and oversee standards. That review was followed by Dame Janet Smith’s third report of the Shipman inquiry, which again proposed that leadership for coroners should come from an independent chief coroner.

[Bob Stewart]

I am slightly worried. I like the idea of having independent coroners, and I do not like the idea of instruction coming down to them; I like the idea of these coroners possibly saying something that we might not find acceptable. That is why I am slightly worried about the idea of a chief coroner imposing, or suggesting, rules downwards. I would like to make sure that that does not happen.

[Michael Dugher]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I have the utmost respect for him and especially for the distinguished service he gave to this country. I have to say to him that independence is at the heart of the proposal for the chief coroner. Introducing national leadership under the chief coroner’s post was rightly seen as a vital step towards tackling the problems of unacceptable delays, a lack of accountability and inconsistent standards across the country. The move would meet the interests of bereaved families and the wider public in terms of quality, effectiveness of investigations and ensuring that knowledge is applied to prevent avoidable death and injury in the future.

Common Fisheries Policy

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I would like to meet hon. Members from both sides of the House during this process and to keep up a regular dialogue. I think there are misunderstandings about the possibility of creating a market mechanism in tradeable quotas. I want to make sure that they are retained in member states, that there is no possibility that more fishing opportunity can be grabbed by fewer and fewer people and that there is a social dimension to our fisheries policy. I want to try to get UK-wide agreement on this.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

From 2013, when the new regulations come in, would it be possible for some very clever people, perhaps in DEFRA, to design a system so that fish discards are distributed to charity, perhaps at home or even abroad?

[Richard Benyon]

The commissioner mentioned that as part of the process; there are mechanisms within the common fisheries policy and common agricultural policy to do that but they are a bit bureaucratic and are not very successful. I agree that it is an affront in a hungry world, when we know that people live in poverty in our own country, that perfectly edible, quality fish are being thrown away, dead. We want to create new supply chains that will address my hon. Friend’s concerns.

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith]

Absolutely. It is a purely selfish idea that anybody would want to see an animal perform in a circus. As my hon. Friend says, we have moved on from that. It is completely mediaeval to think of going back to the idea that an animal is to be taken round on a chain because nobody in the area or in the country has ever had a chance to see that type of animal. We do not want that any more.

There are many important lessons that we want to teach our young people. They will not learn the fundamental lesson about respect for animals and treating them properly and well if they are taken to a circus to see such antics. Young people have to understand that for them to see such things, animals have to travel and undergo very undesirable practices. Animal welfare is incompatible with the life of a travelling circus.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have personal experience of a wild animal. I found a bear in a cage in no man’s land. He had been left there for four weeks without water. He was entirely miserable and would not even be coaxed out of his cage by honey. We managed to ethnically cleanse that bear out of Bosnia and into Croatia. He is now a very happy bear who is full of life and living in Amsterdam zoo, which is great. I fully support the idea of banning animals in cages, because it would stop that sort of thing.

[Nia Griffith]

As I have said, society has moved on. We do not expect to see the cruelty of animals being kept in circuses in this day and age.

We want this ban to be sorted out in the most efficient way for the whole country, not in little bits and pieces or through half measures. We want a proper ban on the use of wild animals in circuses. As I have said, there are many other ways in which young people can be educated about animals. They do not need to see cruelty to animals in the circus. I fully support the motion. I congratulate the Members who called for this debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing it.

Fisheries

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Zac Goldsmith]

The hon. Gentleman has anticipated my concluding remarks, so I will ask him to hold on for a few moments.

If we were able to reassert control over our waters, we would also be able to set the rules on science. With the active involvement of those who depend more than anyone else on the viability and health of our marine environment—the fishermen themselves—we would be able to get the policy right. That would also allow us to do something even more important—to recognise in law and in our regulatory regime, finally, the difference between smaller, traditional fishing vessels and their giant industrial competitors. It is an absolute mystery to me why successive Governments have always chosen to view the latter, the so-called fishing lobby, as the true voice of fishermen.

More than three quarters of the UK fleet is made up of vessels of 10 metres and under, which represent about 65% of full-time employment. Under the previous Administration, the 5,000 or so 10-metre and under vessels were given just 4% of the national quota, compared with the staggering 96% that was given to bigger boats, which number fewer than 1,500. It is staggeringly unfair, and if we were able to organise ourselves in the way that we chose within those 12 miles, we would be able to recognise the madness of that system in law.

It is an obvious observation that the smaller vessels are restricted in where they can go and what damage they can do, simply because of their size. The tools that they use do not compare with those available to the industrial factory fishing vessels, some of which have lines that would stretch from Parliament to Brighton, and purse seine nets that are big enough to swallow two millennium domes—which is a nice thought in some respects.

Whereas the interests of the smaller fishing communities are necessarily aligned with conservationists and consumers, the tools of destruction used by the mega-trawlers are fundamentally incompatible with any kind of sustainable future. That has finally been recognised at EU level, in word if not in deed. The new EU Fisheries Commissioner, Maria Damanaki, has said:

“We…believe, based on scientific information, that small-scale fisheries are more sustainable and have a lower environmental footprint…Small-scale fisheries are also…more friendly to employment, and this is a key issue. We also recognise that small-scale fisheries are very important for the survival of coastal communities, for their identity, culture, history and way of life.”

Hear, hear to that, but let us see that finally translated into law. It is time for a clear and forceful policy distinction between the interests of the small-scale, more traditional fisherman, and large-scale operations.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Is it possible for us to have small-scale fishing out to 12 miles, and to ban factory fishing within, or am I being slightly naive in this modern age?

[Zac Goldsmith]

I can only tell my hon. Friend that I would like to see a system biased in favour of the small-scale, traditional fisherman, but that is an academic discussion until we reassert our control over those 12 miles. When we have done that, we can raise standards. Lobby groups that represent the fishermen who use smaller vessels are very much in support of his message.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I do not intend to take up my full time allocation, as I want to make only a few points. First, however, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), who brought this motion before the House, and to my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), who spoke eloquently and informatively. She brings to the House the benefit of her and her family’s expertise and experience in Cornwall.

As many Members will know, Sherwood is a land-locked constituency in the middle of Nottinghamshire, but my constituents know what is right and what is wrong—and this is clearly wrong. Only the European Union could dream up a policy under which trawlermen can bring back to land only a small proportion of the fish they catch and must throw the rest overboard. It does not make any sense ecologically, economically or morally. We have to consider the reason for these discards, however. They are the result of the quota system introduced by the EU, which measures the fish brought back to land. If possible, we should consider a system that measures the fish as they are brought on to the boat, rather than when they are landed back at the port.

I am not an expert in fisheries, but the comparisons with agriculture strike me. Is it possible to consider a system similar to the one that operated in the sugar industry with sugar beet, with an A, B and C quota. The fish would still be taken to market, but their value would be much lower, to encourage them to be brought back to land.

High grading is a system whereby fishermen go out, catch the fish and try to retain those of the highest value. That is causing a problem in that the small-value fish are thrown overboard. In terms of the fish stocks, however, they are quite high value, because they are often the young and small fish that will go on to grow and be the future stocks.

[Bob Stewart]

This seems nonsensical to me. Surely we cannot design a system whereby any fish are thrown back. Once a fish is landed, it is damaged, and if it is put back it will probably die. Whatever system we design must be sensible, ensure that all fish are landed and aim to preserve fish stocks. We should not just put some back and keep some.

[Mr Spencer]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. We also need to find new technologies, and there are technologies available that sieve fish and pass the smaller ones through the nets so that they are not captured.