Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Consideration of Lords amendments & Ping Pong & Ping Pong: House of Commons
Wednesday 27th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly reasonable point, as he very often does. The issue with putting the code of conduct into the Bill is, in part, that the code of conduct is, I think, hundreds of pages long. There are also issues of precedent in terms of codes of practice and codes of conduct elsewhere. However, I will give careful consideration to what he says and hope to come back to it.

Juveniles are authorised as covert human intelligence sources only in exceptional circumstances. There are significant additional safeguards in place for these authorisations, including authorisation that must be given by a more senior-level officer, an enhanced risk assessment process, and a shorter authorisation of only four months, with reviews of that authorisation having to take place at least monthly. Several safeguards will be in place, over and above, in respect of juveniles. There is also a requirement that an appropriate adult would be present in any discussions between the handlers and a young person under 16 years of age, and a rebuttable presumption that this is the case for 16 and 17-year-olds. Let me be clear on this point: the presumption is that an appropriate adult will be in place for meetings with 16 and 17-year-olds. That is the default position, if I can put it that way. If the public authority deems that it is necessary to derogate from that position, the rationale detailing the reasons why should be documented and then considered by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. The commissioner confirmed that, in practice, juveniles are not tasked to participate in criminality that they are not already involved in.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy—Mr Deputy Speaker. Forgive me—a slip of the tongue.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

As always.

[Bob Stewart]

Forgive me—I am on my knees.

Having done this sort of thing, albeit in a relatively minor way, I want to clarify one thing. Often, information was given to people who were doing this kind of work in the field by juveniles. That does not make the juvenile a source. That information can still obviously be passed on, but clearly there are restrictions on using that juvenile in future. However, the information given by juveniles certainly must not be stopped.

[The Solicitor General]

Not for the first time, my hon. Friend makes a very powerful point by dint of his experience in these matters, and in a moment I will give an example that he might find interesting on that exact point. As I said, the Investigatory Powers Commissioner confirmed that, in practice, juveniles are not tasked to participate in criminality that they are not already involved in. The commissioner also noted that decisions to authorise were only made when that was the best option for breaking the cycle of crime and danger for the young person involved.

To demonstrate how authorisations for juvenile covert human intelligence sources are managed in reality by the police, let me give an example that can also be found in the IPC’s most recent annual report:

“In one…case, a juvenile was carrying out activity on behalf of a ‘county line’ drug supply group”—

a gang. The juvenile owed money to the gang. He or she

“approached the police wishing to provide information. A referral under the Modern Slavery Act was made by the police and a care plan was drawn up with Children’s Services, including relocating the juvenile and finding them a training course. Once this had been done, as an authorised CHIS, the juvenile was able to provide intelligence to the police regarding the ‘county line’ crime group.”

That is a particularly instructive example of the sort of circumstances in which that can apply.

Lords amendment 4 seeks to add further safeguards for the authorisation of juveniles and vulnerable adults when they are granted a criminal conduct authorisation. While the Government recognise the spirit of these amendments, Lords amendment 4 as drafted creates operational issues. For example, the amendment defines exceptional circumstances as

“where all other methods to gain information have been exhausted”.

That requirement has a tendency to risk the workability of the power and, crucially, the safety of the juvenile because there may be occasions, in the cut and thrust of these things, where there are other ways to gain the information, but those other ways may not be the safest way to extricate the juvenile from the situation that he or she finds themselves in and to lead to the best outcome for the juvenile involved. The words in the amendment are too prescriptive and creative operational and workability issues.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Kevan Jones]

May I join colleagues in the House in sending best wishes to the Minister for Security, the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), for a speedy recovery?

In his contribution to this debate, my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn) said that we were talking about issues that take place in the shadows. Well, we are, because many of the activities that our security services undertake cannot, quite rightly, be talked about publicly. I wish to put on record my thanks to the men and women of our services who protect us.

The Chair of the Select Committee, the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), said that covert human intelligence is important. It is, but there is an emphasis these days that, because we have electronic eavesdropping, data collection and everything else, it is a thing of the past. May I recommend that you, Mr Speaker, and other Members read John Ferris’s excellent new book on the history of GCHQ? It was always the case, even during the second world war, that human intelligence along with intercept was the way in which we got the full picture around intelligence. That is important.

Why do people become covert human intelligence sources? Having seen some of the cases, I can say that the reasons vary. In some cases, they are very brave individuals who put their lives at risk to protect others, and the interface with our security services is vital. I said on Second Reading that, sadly, certain labels got stuck on this Bill right from the beginning. It was felt that, somehow, it would allow the state suddenly to authorise everything from torture to murder. Certainly in my party, it is felt that if a Member is a true socialist on the left, they would have to oppose this Bill every step of the way. I am sorry, but I think that that is very unfortunate. People should read what is in the Bill. We should be welcoming the Bill, as my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North said. What it is doing is putting on a statutory footing what is taking place anyway. If we look at the law as it stands at the moment, certain authorisation of and participation in criminality by CHISs has always been accepted as necessary by UK courts as long as it is proportionate to the safeguarding of the public. However, it is not on a statutory basis, so actually people who have concerns about the operation of our security services should welcome the Bill. Certainly, in MI5’s case there is an implication about this in the Security Service Act 1989, but the Bill, for the first time, puts it on a statutory footing, which we should welcome.

Having said that, there are aspects of the Bill that need to be improved. Will there be situations in which the individuals that we are talking about have to be part of criminal activity? Yes, there will be. I have been a member of the ISC for a number of years now. I have been briefed, along with other Members, by MI5 not just on this Bill but on others. I have also, in a previous inquiry, read the transcripts between handlers and CHISs. I will not divulge their contents; all I can say is that the information and intelligence obtained in the transcripts that I read was vital to disrupt a number of terrorist plots. This will not go away if we just think that it is too hot to handle; it has a real impact on our daily lives in this country in terms of national security.

I understand what those who tabled Lords amendment 1 want. They want some protection in the Bill so that the list of things that can be authorised can be a checklist. As the Solicitor General and the right hon. Member for New Forest East have already referred to, setting that checklist will make the operation of CHISs very difficult. I do not necessarily agree with what the right hon. Member for New Forest East said about the Human Rights Act, but the idea that the Bill will allow murder, rape and everything else is just not true. That assures me that the justifiable and proportional approach in the Bill is important. We also have the cover-all in terms of the Human Rights Act, so I do not accept, for practical reasons, that Lords amendment 2 would either improve the Bill or make it easier for our security services to operate.

[Bob Stewart]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, who happens to be a good friend, for letting me intervene. I am slightly worried that if we put something into statute and law, it would be utterly tragic if someone who was operating covertly was killed as a result of having a constraint on him or her—there are hers too—that identifies them, and the next thing we know they are stuck in a ditch somewhere with a round in the back of their head. That is the dilemma we face.

[Mr Jones]

It is, and there is another thing of which I would like to reassure the House, from a security point of view and from my position on the ISC. As I think I said on Second Reading, such decisions are not taken lightly by the security services. Senior officers authorise and control CHISs for good reasons. Do they have some difficult calls to make? Certainly, from one of the transcripts that I read, they do. Do they, on occasions, withdraw authorisation? Yes, if they think that the individual is doing something that is not justifiable or proportionate.

The other point is that we, and a lot of the Bill’s opponents, have concentrated on the security services, but remember that it will be used by the police and others.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Stewart]

I thank my really good friend, my right hon. Friend, for letting me intervene. I speak from experience, because I have run an organisation—I will not be too precise—and there were several hundred people on my books. Not one was a child. We did not need a law to tell us not to use children. We did not use children, and there was no flipping law that stopped us.

Extradition (Provisional Arrest) Bill [Lords]

Bob Stewart Excerpts

2nd reading & Programme motion: House of Commons & 2nd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion
Monday 22nd June 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

As my hon. Friend knows very well, changed arrangements now with the European Union allow this country to conduct itself with fresh ideas and fresh considerations. But it is important to recognise that the Bill applies to a limited number of countries, with which we have an extremely good relationship, and in which we have considerable trust. Indeed we have considerable experience of their processes and judicial systems.

I just want to touch on a couple of remarks made in this brief debate by hon. Members from across the House. My hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden) talked about the Bill being not before time. He is right to say that. He supports the mechanisms, including the statutory instrument mechanisms, which will allow an ease of process for the Bill going forward.

The hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) talked about the Bill not being about the European arrest warrant and she is right. This is a matter of supporting our police here in the United Kingdom. Clearly, we are involved in negotiations, but nothing is more important, as she will recognise, than the safety of our people. The Bill is limited in scope, but it is important.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), whose interventions in this House are always very welcome, mentioned, rightly, that the countries in the Bill are trusted partners. I am very pleased that he welcomes it.

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), spoke in similar terms. It is important that on these measures, especially in times like these, we can speak as one about the security of the people of this country and recognise that the legislation does not change any other part of the subsequent extradition process. All the safeguards that currently exist in extradition proceedings in this country, set out under part 2 of the Extradition Act 2003, will continue to apply. The Bill does not do anything to change that. The courts will have the same powers and protections as they do now, including the fact that they must ensure that a person will not be extradited if doing so would breach their human rights in any way; if the request is politically motivated; or if they would risk facing the penalty of death. Our courts can be trusted—the examples are legion—to make sure that the provisions are adhered to.

The Bill seeks to deal with a very simple issue. Currently, as the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) mentioned in opening the debate, a potentially dangerous wanted individual who is known to the police can potentially remain at liberty on the streets of this country, able to offend, able to reoffend and able to abscond. Examples exist where that has happened. The new power will see people who are wanted by a trusted country for a serious crime, and who may be a danger to the public, off our streets as soon as they are encountered.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

In short, it will extradite them more quickly.

[The Solicitor General]

It will not change the process of extradition, but it will mean that police officers will potentially be able to arrest more quickly because they will be able to act when they have cause to do so.

In conclusion—

European Convention on Human Rights: UK Membership

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney General]

As I have said, we will have to wait for the proposals to be brought forward before it is sensible to discuss them in detail, but the hon. Gentleman has my undertaking, as he has had that of other Ministers, that when the proposals are brought forward, there will be a full conversation about how the devolution aspects of such proposals will be managed.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have given evidence at four trials at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The ICTY judges told me that the UK had a superb record on upholding human rights. I must say that was very pleasant for my men and me to hear, having had to go through four trials. Does my right hon. and learned Friend think that such a verdict could be applied to all other members of the European convention on human rights?

[The Attorney General]

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that being a member of the Council of Europe and a signatory to the convention is no guarantee that a country’s human rights record will be spotless. It follows logically, of course, that not being such a signatory does not mean a country cannot have a hugely impressive record on the protection of human rights. Many countries around the world that are not signatories to that document have demonstrated exactly that.

UK and Gibraltar Prosecuting Authorities

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Crausby, and to have this important and very topical debate on the relationship between the UK and the British overseas territory of Gibraltar on prosecution and law enforcement matters. I refer at the outset to my relevant interests in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

As many Members will know, Gibraltar is a fully self-governing and self-funding British overseas territory. It adheres entirely to the British system and rule of law, and it is the contention of this debate and worth restating that it meets the highest United Kingdom and international standards in all respects. It is a small country, but it is proud to be British. Part of that British heritage is its strong legal system, entirely based upon our own common law.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I thank my very hon. Friend for giving way. I want to reinforce his point by saying that not only is the legal system very good indeed, but the police and defence forces are outstanding. I speak from personal experience, having worked with them.

[Robert Neill]

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point, particularly given his experience in that sphere. It certainly coincides entirely with my own.

As well as having a strong economy with growth that most places would envy, Gibraltar has a robust and independent legal system, a thriving legal community, a strong and independent judiciary, as well as an excellent police force, organised and trained to the highest British standards, and associated law enforcement agencies. It has, in particular, a robust prosecution service presided over by the highly experienced and very well regarded Attorney General, Ricky Rhoda, and supported by a team of Crown Counsel who meet the same high standards as would be found in any prosecution department in the United Kingdom. I have had the pleasure on more than one occasion of meeting the senior Crown Counsel, the Attorney General and senior members of the judiciary.

It is against that background that on my last visit to Gibraltar, I was struck by the genuine sense of outrage felt by Gibraltarian citizens at every level that I met, from members of Government through to legal practitioners, down to shopkeepers and the taxi driver who took me up to the Rock hotel one evening—once he found out I was an MP—at comments made in this House, I regret to say, on 30 October by the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). I am glad to see him in his place. I notified him of my intention to refer to his comments in this debate. They were ill-founded, they have done damage to Gibraltar wrongly and needlessly, and this is a chance to set the record straight.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Solicitor-General]

I am happy to accept the hon. Gentleman’s exhortation. I hope to see the Chief Minister at the Foreign Office later today and I will convey the message of this House loud and clear that we support the work of our friends in Gibraltar and the prosecutorial authorities and indeed the Attorney General, Ricky Rhoda.

I can contribute to this debate by outlining the work of the Crown Prosecution Service and Serious Fraud Office, both of which the Attorney-General and I superintend in our role as Law Officers. Indeed, I am pleased to be able to tell my hon. Friend that the working relationship between the UK and Gibraltarian prosecuting authorities is strong and constructive.

As my hon. Friend recognises, the Government have set out to reinvigorate our relationship with the overseas territories, to increase the UK’s engagement with their Governments at all levels and to support them when required. I have just returned from a conference of Attorneys General of 10 of the UK’s overseas territories, including Gibraltar, with representatives from the United States and Canadian Departments of Justice. We met in Miami and discussed a range of topics relating to the rule of law and administration of justice in the overseas territories and sought to enhance our mutual co-operation on a range of matters. After three and a half days of discussion, my firm view is that the Attorneys General of each of our territories play a key role in helping to drive forward legal reform and to meet our wider ambitions.

Ensuring good governance and respect for the rule of law is a fundamental and vital platform for delivering security and prosperity for all our citizens. During the conference we discussed important topics including mutual legal assistance, extradition procedures, tackling bribery, fraud and corruption, improving legislative drafting processes, child safeguarding—a growing and important issue in many territories—and constitutional matters. A series of actions on those subjects was agreed, and I look forward to continuing our close liaison with the Attorney General of Gibraltar and the other overseas territories as we work to deliver them.

I turn to the work of the prosecuting authorities, starting with the Crown Prosecution Service. It is important to note that co-operation between the UK and Gibraltar is not confined to mutual legal assistance through the formal letter of request process. It also takes place, as my hon. Friend suggested, on a police-to-police basis. The appropriate avenue will depend on the nature of the request and the purpose for which the information or evidence is sought. Both the Crown Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office work regularly with other judicial authorities using the established MLA channels. That is how countries request and provide assistance in obtaining evidence that is located in one country for use in criminal investigations and prosecutions in another. It is also used to obtain assistance in the tracing, restraint and confiscation of the proceeds of crime, which is particularly germane to the issues that have been raised today.

Letters of request from Gibraltar to the UK typically come via the United Kingdom central authority, which is based in the Home Office. The CPS will be involved in requests to restrain or confiscate assets here in the UK. The CPS and the SFO have worked with the Gibraltarian authorities in the past few years, and that has been of real benefit to both jurisdictions.

[Bob Stewart]

Is my hon. and learned Friend saying that to all intents and purposes, that which is legal in this country is legal in Gibraltar, and that which is illegal in Gibraltar is illegal in this country, too?

[The Solicitor-General]

That is a fair way of putting it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst has said, we will be entering into the justice and home affairs measures on 1 December, and Gibraltar has taken swift action to do likewise—to follow in lockstep with the UK. Those extra safeguards and means of mutual co-operation strengthen the ties that bind us.

I am sure that my hon. Friend will understand that it would not be appropriate for me to give specific examples because of the international expectation that MLA requests remain confidential. However, I can talk about some notable recent successes of the CPS, such as the securing of two convictions against individuals for fraudulently obtaining moneys from a vulnerable elderly relative. Assistance from Gibraltar helped to secure that conviction, and there was lawyer-to-lawyer contact to progress the case. I would like to mention some other examples of ongoing casework, ranging from organised crime—specifically drug trafficking—to fraud and identity theft. CPS lawyers have reported receiving exceptional assistance from Gibraltar, including a response to a request that was issued at very short notice following a change in position from the defence. In another case, a letter of request was sent to obtain banking evidence, and there were no problems with obtaining the material from Gibraltar.

John Downey

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

As I understand the matter, and there may be others in the House who are better able to answer on the policy background, it arose out of a desire to provide reassurance to those who feared coming back into the jurisdiction that they could do so on the basis that there was no prospect of their being prosecuted on the evidence currently available to the authorities—the PSNI, as in this case, or other police forces. That was the basis of what happened. Of course, the hon. Gentleman is right: the wider way in which the peace process has been conducted is a legitimate matter for political debate, but in my role as the Attorney-General I endeavour to focus on what I see as the issues, and as I said earlier, there was nothing unlawful about the letters. There was no amnesty. But, as I accept, it is quite clear from the court judgment and the facts that emerged in the case of Mr Downey that Mr Downey should never have been sent the letter.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

My heart breaks for the families and the victims of this appalling atrocity. Five months after it happened, my soldiers were killed in Ballykelly. Seventeen people—11 soldiers and six civilians—were killed. I gave evidence against the five people who were charged with that crime—five people. Does that mean that others who were involved in this appalling atrocity are not being chased vigorously by the Police Service of Northern Ireland and brought to justice?

[The Attorney-General]

I have absolutely no evidence to suggest that cases are not being pursued simply because they might be old. That is not the case. Indeed, if that had been the case, Mr Downey would not have been picked up at Gatwick airport.

Assisted Suicide

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

I wish to make three points. First, as the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) said earlier, I believe that the people who have pushed forward today’s debate are, in essence, introducing a Trojan horse. I respect the genuine feeling that many have on the issue, but my worry is that whatever the intention of some Members, this will ratchet towards euthanasia.

Secondly, there is a risk of abuse because of the serious abuse that exists in Oregon and the Netherlands, where assisted dying is legal and, dare I say it, in historical examples of state-sanctioned euthanasia, such as in Nazi Germany. Thirdly, I would argue that this is the wrong debate. In terms of resources and philosophically, surely we should put everything into helping people to live, not helping people to die.

My fear is that this is a Trojan horse motion. I accept that the motion simply welcomes the DPP’s advice, and that the Director of Public Prosecutions said in February:

“The policy does not change the law on assisted suicide”,

but he also admitted that there had been changes to the policy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) said, Parliament has never voted on these measures, even though they de facto amend the Suicide Act 1961. There is a risk that the guidance will tilt the legal balance towards euthanasia, not least because it clarifies how people can deliberately avoid prosecution.

[Bob Stewart]

I do not understand how they would amend the Suicide Act. It is my understanding that it has not been amended.

[Robert Halfon]

My argument is that the guidelines are too flexible, and that Parliament has not made a decision about the matter. As I said, Parliament has had no say in designing the DPP’s guidance, and that is not how law should be made in Britain. We are simply being asked to rubber-stamp what the DPP has said. This matters because there is a risk of abuse—it could become a lawyer’s charter—and because of the kind of country it would make us.

Sadly, there is a real example in history of how the move to assisted dying has led to something much worse. In 1920, the eminent German medics, Binding and Hoche, argued strenuously that doctors should be protected against prosecution for assisted dying. Their research was popularised during the Weimar era, and by 1932 created the intellectual climate that allowed Prussia to remove support for the disabled and terminally ill. In 1939, we know that Hitler issued orders that doctors be commissioned to grant a mercy death to patients who were judged to be incurably sick. A small step perhaps; each step along this path was a small step. Two years later we know that 70,000 patients from Germany’s hospitals had been killed. We know that in 1941, the gas chambers were moved from the hospitals where they had been used for euthanasia to the death camps of Auschwitz and Treblinka. Nurses, doctors and technicians followed the equipment. That is why I am worried about a conveyor belt. Of course, we live in a benign country, and we think that such things would never happen, but it is precisely because we are a benign country that we have to put in every safeguard to ensure that it does never happen.

I argue that the DPP’s guidance can become a lawyer’s charter. Who will define “compassion” in the DPP’s guidance? What is “minor encouragement”? How will we know the victim’s story if only the suspect can give evidence. Moves towards assisted dying would seriously damage our national character. As the National Review reported, a 1991 Dutch survey showed that 2% of all deaths in the Netherlands were caused by deliberate euthanasia, but 10% were from euthanasia by neglect, omission or other forms of poor care.

This is the wrong debate. We should be supporting palliative care, and I am proud to be very involved with my local hospice, St Clare’s. We should remember that about 40% of hospice in-patients return home and 66% of hospice at-home patients die in their own homes.

As a society, we are beginning to devalue human life, whether it is on television, in computer games or in other forms. I accept that we give people choice, but we are not talking about going to a supermarket and choosing a brand of chocolate. Harold Shipman was mentioned earlier, and he got away with what he did because human beings became digits on a computer: form filling. I wonder whether he would have got away with what he did if we did not devalue human life in the way we do.

Phone Hacking

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)]

News International’s decision to throw Andy Coulson to the wolves last night was an attempt to divert us from an even bigger wrong: that company was systematically, ruthlessly, and without conscience or morality, interfering with the phones of victims of murder, cruelly deceiving their families and impeding the search for justice. Glenn Mulcaire has accepted some share of responsibility for this moral sickness, but the editor in charge of him refuses to take responsibility. Indeed, far from accepting blame, she has—amazingly—put herself in charge of the investigation into the wrongdoing; the chief suspect has become the chief investigator.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I, like many Members of the House, have run an organisation. Sometimes in organisations things go wrong and there are faults that might not be the fault of the person running it—but it is certainly their responsibility, and responsibility goes right to the top. Rebekah Brooks is responsible for what has happened. If she does not resign, the person above her should understand that it is his responsibility to—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I respect the hon. Gentleman’s sincerity and integrity, but interventions must be brief from now on, as otherwise we will find it very difficult to make progress.

Dr David Kelly

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

Yes, indeed. There is no evidence that I have seen, including the material that has been produced on the review, that could lead to an inquest coming to any other conclusion.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Does the Attorney-General agree that his statement today should put to bed some of the outrageous and fallacious speculations that members of our security forces might have murdered Dr Kelly?