Oral Answers to Questions

Bob Seely Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dominic Raab]

I am afraid I do not accept that characterisation. I think that on Second Reading, the hon. Gentleman will see the level of support. There has already been consultation on not just the policy proposals but specific clauses. We have looked at this at length. It is a manifesto commitment dating back to 2010. It remains one today, and we are going to deliver it for the British people.

[Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

7. What plans he has for the Camp Hill site in Isle of Wight constituency.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Damian Hinds)]

As my hon. Friend knows, HM Prison Camp Hill in his constituency was closed in 2013. We are currently exploring options for a number of decommissioned prison sites, including Camp Hill.

[Bob Seely]

Do Ministers agree that one way the Government can drive economic growth is through quicker decision making? As the Minister has admitted, we have waited nearly a decade for an answer on Camp Hill. Do Ministers understand, and have they taken on board, that our preferred option on the Isle of Wight is for the Camp Hill site to be sold to the council at a price it can afford—we have done that with the Columbine building in East Cowes—so that we can use that land for jobs, housing and development, taking pressure off greenfield sites and creating wealth on the Island, rather than having this valuable site stand empty for such a long time?

[Damian Hinds]

First, I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of making timely decisions on all such matters. I also hear what he says; transferring that site to Isle of Wight Council is one of the options being looked at, among others. I know that MOJ officials have been speaking to the council, and I commit to my hon. Friend that they will continue to do so.

Lawfare and Investigative Journalism

Bob Seely Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

I thank the right hon. Lady for drawing the attention of the House to that case. I do not know the substance of it, but the fact is that these cases are best resolved transparently and in public, with fearless reporting, not with repression of free speech. Oligarchs will often bring these claims as they know their opponents will, as in this case, have to back down either through the threat of bankruptcy or because they become bankrupt as a result of the operation, and it is a good example of this problem.

That is why the Government earlier this year found that some journalists

“no longer publish information on certain individuals or topics—such as exposing serious wrong-doing or corruption—because of potential legal costs.”

That also applies to some newspapers and some organisations whose job it is to expose this sort of information.

With every letter and every stage of legal action, organisations like the Bureau of Investigative Journalism must divert resources and attention away from public interest reporting and towards defending themselves against bogus or trivial claims. The Bureau of Investigative Journalism has a small team, with just a few dozen staff. To defend itself, it has been forced to divert much of its reporting team and senior management, as well as significant financial resources, to dealing with these legal threats.

This kind of lawfare is a potentially existential threat to investigative journalism, and that is precisely what the claimants in these cases intend. These proceedings are not initiated to prove the organisations wrong—the oligarchs know that the organisations are right—but rather to financially and psychologically exhaust them into retraction. What Nazarbayev wants is to import into the UK the contempt for free speech shown in Kazakhstan during his three-decade rule. As the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) pointed out in his intervention, Nazarbayev is bringing to Britain what he imposed on Kazakhstan and we cannot allow that. This should offend the sensibilities of anyone who values a fair and equal justice system, as well as those who rightly appreciate the value of public interest reporting.

It is of some reassurance that the Government intend to reform the law around SLAPPs, but we must move more quickly. I say that directly to the Minister, who is an old friend of mine over the years; I am very pleased he is in his place and in the Department as he will do a fantastic job, but I say to him that we must move more quickly. There is no time to waste when even now we have oligarchs using SLAPPs to curb free speech and evade justice in our country. One of our ex-colleagues, Charlotte Leslie, is facing such a case at the moment. We as Members of Parliament have parliamentary privilege and so can speak without the threat of libel action, but that privilege brings with it a duty to speak up for those who cannot speak for fear of punishment by the likes of Nazarbayev.

In the wake of the war in Ukraine, the Government swiftly introduced sanctions on those with links to the Russian regime, making it harder for them to use our country as a money-laundering venue. It is high time that we applied that same urgency and purpose to addressing the damage that oligarchs are doing to our justice system and our free-speech values. For too long, we have facilitated oligarchs’ dirty money and corruption in the UK.

[Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is making a great speech and incredibly good points about lawfare. We have the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill before the House, and it would be wonderful if the Minister, when he is on his feet in a few minutes, confirmed that lawfare will be part of that. We have a lawfare Bill written and ready to go, and the Government could adopt it. There are three elements to it: the abuse of privacy laws; various other factors; and the aggressive abuse of libel law. The problem is, whether we like it or not, we may make grandiose speeches about how free speech must be defended, but it is being attacked all the time. In the last few years, it has been relentlessly attacked by criminals, by oligarchs and by Russian proxies and other corrupt proxies in this country. We need laws brought in now, not at some time in the future.

[Mr Davis]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. Our friends and neighbours in the US and Europe are taking action, and we must not be left behind. If we do not act, we will let dangerous people off the hook while allowing journalists and researchers to be punished for doing their jobs. What we need now is a commitment from Ministers to bring forward either a free-standing SLAPPs Bill or measures that form a component of another Bill. I do not care which it is, but it must happen soon.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Gareth Johnson)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) on securing the debate. It is true that I was his Parliamentary Private Secretary back in 2017 when we were going through the turbulent times of Brexit. I think that he and I are pleased that things are so much calmer now.

I also pay tribute to all Members who have contributed: the right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge), the hon. Members for City of Chester (Christian Matheson), for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) and my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely), who is another doughty fighter on this issue. The House is lucky to have such Members who have seen this as an issue that they want to take forward and who want to ensure that my Department carries out the correct actions. It also gives me the opportunity to restate the Government’s commitment to freedom of speech and the protection of journalists. SLAPPs are wrong. They are a form of bullying. They need to be stopped, and stopped through legislation. First, let me emphasise that investigative journalism is of central importance to a functioning democracy. The UK launched a national action plan in 2021 to ensure that we continue to foster an environment in which journalists feel safe from physical harm and intimidation, and where those who threaten them are properly held to account.

[Bob Seely]

The Leus case, as eloquently highlighted by the right hon. Member for Barking, is just the latest example of the threatening abuse of lawfare, this time against Chatham House. It is remarkable that robust, incredibly famous international organisations are filleting reports because of the intimidation paid for by multi-millionaires. On the abuse of data protection, the abuse of privacy and the abuse of libel, is that going to be dealt with in a law which my right hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Dominic Raab) was planning, or is it going to be part of the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, which is happening very soon and could be amended?

[Gareth Johnson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. This matter will be dealt with by legislation. I cannot promise him that it will be dealt with in the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, but it will be dealt with through legislation. I hope the House will forgive me if I do not refer to the substance of the cases that have been raised in this debate, but I want to set out exactly what the Government intend to do. Our aim is to ensure that journalists operating in the UK are as safe as possible, reducing the number of attacks on, and threats issued to journalists, and ensuring that those responsible are brought to justice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Davis]

Will the Minister give way?

[Bob Seely]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Gareth Johnson]

I can give my right hon. Friend an assurance that we will do this as soon as the legislation is ready and as soon as parliamentary time allows it to happen.

[Bob Seely]

Will the Minister give way on that specific point?

[Gareth Johnson]

I will give way one last time, because I hope hon. Members want to hear what I have to say.

[Bob Seely]

I absolutely want to hear what the Minister has to say. Just on the oven-ready point, and I know it is a slightly over-used term in this House, we had a Bill written. There is a SLAPPs Bill that is oven-ready.

[Gareth Johnson]

I am sure that the parliamentary draftsmen will be interested in having a careful look at that. We need to get legislation right. If we do not get this legislation right—I know this is not the intention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden—we run the danger of blocking perfectly legitimate action that is being taken against wrongdoers. We therefore need to get it right. In other jurisdictions where legislation has been brought in at haste and got wrong, it has needed to be withdrawn and amended. We do not want to repeat that in the UK.

The UK may not face the same challenges as other states, but it is clear that journalists operating here still face threats to their personal safety, largely through online abuse. We rely on journalists to hold powerful people and organisations to account for our collective good. Lawfare that targets our public watchdogs through aggressive, intimidatory tactics must be stamped out.

Russia’s shocking invasion of Ukraine brought home the urgency of Government action on strategic lawsuits against public participation—SLAPPs, as lawfare is commonly called—amid reports that hostile states could finance litigation in the UK to obstruct worthwhile investigations into corruption and other wrongdoing. We know that the Government’s decisive action on sanctions has already urged firms to review their Russian client list, mitigating threats to national security. Insurers are increasingly cautious in granting professional indemnity insurance, reflecting greater scrutiny of Russian-linked litigation.

As the House will recall, the Government published a call for evidence on SLAPPs on 17 March and their accompanying response to the call for evidence on SLAPPs on 20 July. I thank the 120 respondents to our call for evidence, who submitted evidence of the highest quality. We individually analysed each response to inform our proposals and were particularly troubled to hear the shocking impact that these cases can have on individuals’ wellbeing and livelihood. We must all be grateful to investigative journalists who report under immense financial and psychological pressure so that we, as a collective, are well informed.

The call for evidence findings have persuaded us of the need to act, although recent court cases show that the issue requires caution as SLAPPs are difficult to identify. SLAPPs present a novel challenge to free speech, so we want to be sure, before introducing legislation, that we get this right so that we deliver the outcome we all want. I want to see legislation to tackle SLAPPs, as do the Lord Chancellor and the Government. That is why we intend to bring in legislation, but we have to get it right.

There is a notable difference in legal and judicial opinion on what constitutes a SLAPP, both domestically and overseas. To rectify that, we have committed to primary legislation to enable clearer identification of SLAPPs according to common characteristics rather than a fixed definition. Those characteristics may include aggressive pre-action communications and targeting individuals where their publishers would be more appropriate.

Today, we know that defendants are intimidated by the prospect of years of litigation that require expensive legal defence. We will introduce an early dismissal process in statute that will effectively stop claimants financially and psychologically exhausting their opponents through abusive means, cutting short cases that have no merit, potentially, through a three-part test.

The crippling costs currently borne by SLAPPs defendants will be addressed through a new costs protection scheme, which will ensure that journalists and free speech advocates can litigate without fear of bankruptcy. That scheme will be introduced in secondary legislation, once the essential identifying features are set out in statute.

We intend to legislate when legislation is ready and when parliamentary time allows, given the pressing issues standing before our new Cabinet. It is appropriate that, with a new Cabinet in place, the Government take care to reassess their immediate priorities. I assure the House that the Secretary of State for Justice is exploring every legislative option, because free speech is a fundamental cornerstone of our democracy.

I note that overseas jurisdictions that have hastily introduced SLAPP legislation have later had to rectify and unpick it. I assure the House, though, that legislation is important. We continue to monitor alleged SLAPPs as they arise to inform our response and to ensure that the measures we introduce reflect the problem accurately. Stakeholder engagement is a vital part of our monitoring effort.

I will skip to the end of my speech, because I took so many interventions, but I make it clear to the House that we intend to legislate on this issue once the legislation is correct and once parliamentary time allows. As this is an Adjournment debate, it is unfortunately too short to properly discuss all the issues involved, but I hope that I have reassured the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Prisons Strategy

Bob Seely Excerpts

Tuesday 7th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind invitation and look forward to seeing how Banksy might represent Reading prison in future artworks, but I regret to say that as the competition has just closed and the bids are being considered, I am afraid I cannot say anything further on the process. I will of course update the hon. Gentleman and the House as soon as decisions have been made.

[Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her praise of staff and governors, of whom we have some superb examples on the Isle of Wight.

Will the Government please make up their mind about what they want to do with Camp Hill? We already have two prisons, Albany and Parkhurst, and there is room to expand in that estate. Camp Hill has now been shut; we do not mind having another prison but, overall, we would prefer the site to be used for community housing because we have only six brownfield estates on the Isle of Wight.

[Victoria Atkins]

I very much understand my hon. Friend’s concern for his constituents and desire for some certainty. I cannot give an undertaking today but am happy to meet him to discuss the matter further and try to make some progress.

Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Bill

Bob Seely Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 12th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Robert Buckland]

The hon. Lady, with whom I served on the Justice Committee, is right to talk about risk assessment and the recall process. She knows that the recall process can be triggered on arrest, and certainly on charge, and that is regularly done in the normal course of events. When it comes to multi-agency public protection arrangements, I think she will note with pleasure that, only three weeks ago, the Home Secretary and I ordered a review to be conducted by Jonathan Hall QC, the Government’s independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. He will look at MAPPA with regard to this high-risk, high-level sector of the cohort, to ensure that we are getting it right and that the appropriate expertise is deployed at the right time in order to make the finest judgment with regard to risk.

[Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

If I understand it correctly, there are about 220 people serving time for terrorist offences, 50 of whom will be affected by this legislation. Is that because those 50 are up for imminent release within the next few months? Does this legislation in principle apply to all 220 people in prison for terrorist-related offences?

[Robert Buckland]

The cohort of around 50 are due for automatic early release; the rest will be subject to Parole Board assessment. Different types of sentence are available. We are talking about people on standard determinate sentences. Other types of sentence include extended determinate sentences. Some may still be on the historical IPP—imprisonment for public protection—regime, and there are also sentences for offenders of particular concern, or SOPC. Forgive me for the alphabet soup, but I am afraid that criminal justice sentencing legislation has not been the easiest matter for us to deal with, either as legislators or when I was a practitioner in this area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

For several years now, people in the security world have been privately warning that we face the release of a bulge of extremist prisoners, after the first wave, 10 or 15 years ago, of significant and serious terror attacks in our country. Of those who committed the two recent attacks, one terrorist had a short-term sentence and may not have been part of that group, but one certainly was, and had been through a rehabilitation process.

I wish to raise some issues, and I hope that the Minister will either write to me or respond to them at the end of the debate. I will also refer to recent articles by Ian Acheson, who has pertinent things to say—he has been referred to by a number of Members across the House.

Ian Acheson recently argued that the system for managing extremist prisoners—there are about 220 in our system overall—is still flawed. Indeed, he described it as “broken”, and argued that evidence for that came out at the trial of Mohiussannath Chowdhury, who was recently convicted of preparing acts of terrorism.

Acheson described Chowdhury’s time at Belmarsh as a form of finishing school where he freely associated with other jihadis, including people who were serving a minimum of 30 or 34 years in prison. He said that Chowdhury regarded what he considered to be a crude, de-radicalisation programme as “laughable”, and that within days of his release he was planning new attacks and waiting for others to be released from prison. What reassurance can the Lord Chancellor provide to show that we are moving on from that position?

This issue has been of significant concern to people in the police and other security agencies for some time. Indeed, we know about the remarkable amount of police time that goes into monitoring highly dangerous people when they leave prison, because in the most recent attack that individual was being monitored. Such monitoring is not done just by a single individual; it is done by groups and teams of police officers, and others.

In the past two weeks, I asked the Lord Chancellor—I very much hope he will remain in his job; he is doing a cracking job and he is a superb Lord Chancellor—about separation units. He said that he hoped that although the Government were reviewing the situation, we had got the balance about right. I respectfully ask whether that is still the case, because the separation units we have are not the units that Ian Acheson recommended. He recommended separation units that would take prisoners out of the general prison population to ensure they were completely incapacitated from radicalising others over a significant and sustained period of time, around which individual responses to those individuals would be built. As other Conservative Members have said, the range of psychological conditions of extremists ranges from people who are probably just very mentally ill, to people who are very bad but in absolute, coherent control of their actions and are very good at radicalising and proselytising others. What Acheson describes as a sheep dip approach and generic psycho-social interventions from secular people—people trained in a secular approach to psychology—will not work for people whose universe is extremely different and built on a warped but theological basis.

Acheson said specifically that the Prison Service had unwillingly adopted some of his recommendations. The Lord Chancellor was good enough to say that we were adopting them, but apparently at a lower level there has been some resistance. Out of our three separation units, one was mothballed before it began, one lies or was lying empty, and the third has barely a handful of residents. I would be very grateful if the Lord Chancellor or other Ministers talked to us about the day-to-day life of separation units. Perhaps MPs should visit them. I am visiting one of my prisons next week and I will be talking about the culture in prisons, both in my constituency and more broadly, because this is probably an issue on which we do not spend enough time. Clearly, there are significant problems. If people are coming out of prison and killing our fellow countrymen, we must prioritise this situation and we probably have not been doing so.

Acheson warned of a fear of litigation driving some decision-making. We all have to be mindful of the law, but a fear of the human rights lobby should not be a reason for forcing or allowing people out who then go on to kill and maim their fellow countrymen.

The final point, which I think is valid, relates to the safeguarding of vulnerable prisoners—the vulnerable prisoners being the terrorist prisoners. I sort of get that at a certain level. In the hostage and crisis negotiators course, the police teach that the person trying to kill other people or take hostages is in a state of crisis and in a vulnerable state. Morality aside, that is clearly true. However, in practical and moral terms, treating the person who is sticking a knife to somebody’s throat or walking on to the tube with a bomb as someone in need of safeguarding is, frankly, not as important as treating the people that that person is going to kill. They are the ones in need of safeguarding from that person. When we talk about safeguarding extremist prisoners, I am wary of using that language—I understand why it is being done—because I think it goes down a morally and ethically dangerous route. We are not making a moral distinction between innocence, which is what the term safeguarding should be used for, and people who want to do considerable harm to other people. Indeed, they see it as a perverted and twisted religious duty, as part of a holy jihad, to slaughter other people. As my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said, that can be a part of the mindset. It is on the spectrum of that mindset.

I know that other Members wish to speak, so I will wrap up on this point. I would very much like to be reassured on some of the questions and issues I have raised, because they are concerns felt by the people who are directly responsible for trying to protect the British public, as well as by Members of this House.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Streatham Incident

Bob Seely Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I cannot make the clock go slower. I tried to make people speak faster, but that does not seem to work. We have five minutes left and not everyone is going to get a chance. Let us go a little bit faster and see who we can get in.

[Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Is there a case for greater isolation of extremists from the general prison population while in prison, or does the Secretary of State think we have the balance right?

Oral Answers to Questions

Bob Seely Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Frazer]

We are very concerned about the level of violence in prisons and very pleased that the 10 prisons project showed that we can reduce violence in prisons by reducing drugs in prison. I am very pleased that the Government recently announced the £100 million investment in prison security to make our prisons safer for those who work in them.

[Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for recently discussing the important Camp Hill site on the Island with me. Will the Ministry of Justice now develop, with me and Isle of Wight Council, a considered position in a timely way so that we can get a public interest outcome?

[Lucy Frazer]

I was very pleased to speak to my hon. Friend about this matter. As he knows, I have offered to meet him and others, and I will be very pleased to do that.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Bob Seely Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Robert Buckland]

I am grateful. I do not know whether that was a compliment, but I will take it as such. I am very glad to see the hon. Gentleman in his place, representing that wonderful part of Gwent, where perhaps one day the electorate will take a different view—who knows? I hope not for a long time—[Interruption.] I was speaking on a personal basis.

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about polygraph testing. I assure him, first, that this is a pilot; and, secondly, that this is not an attempt to use it as evidence. Clearly, there needs to be a high bar for the admissibility of evidence in criminal or family or civil proceedings. This measure is all about getting the sort of information—intelligence—that can help the police and other agencies to assess risk. Material of that sort can be invaluable and really make the difference for many victims.

Where prevention and protection has failed, some victims will seek remedies before the courts. I recognise that we must do better. In criminal proceedings against an alleged perpetrator, we want victims to be able to give their very best evidence to help convict the guilty. Giving evidence, as I said, can be a daunting, traumatic experience—and often a barrier—so there is already provision for what are termed “special measures”. It has been in legislation for 20 years. Those measures are designed to take some of the stress out of that process. If the quality of a victim’s evidence can be improved by allowing them to give evidence from behind a screen or via video link, or by playing a pre-recorded interview, we should do everything we can to allow that. The Bill, importantly, ensures that the victims of domestic abuse—the complainants in the trial—are automatically eligible for such special measures.

Few things are likely to re-traumatise victims more than being subject to direct cross-examination by their abuser in legal proceedings. Such an experience will inevitably cause immense stress, and would of itself be a continuation of the abuse.

[Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

I am so grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. I congratulate him on making a powerful speech.

The issue of coercive control is highly complex, and such control can trap victims in debilitating and isolating fear. Sadly, friends of mine who have been victims of coercive control talk of almost being taken psychologically hostage by an abusive former partner. Does the Secretary of State agree that the hope is that the Bill would not only change the law for the better—although we still need to scrutinise it, however widespread the support is—but would change behaviour as well, and encourage women who are victims of coercive control to know that it is not right?

[Robert Buckland]

My hon. Friend has coined a very powerful phrase—psychological hostage—which is the right characterisation of the relationship he describes. I welcome his support and observations, and I am truly grateful to him.

Oral Answers to Questions

Bob Seely Excerpts

Tuesday 9th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

The hon. Gentleman sets out many of the reasons why we brought in the female offender strategy last year. We are seeking to address the root causes of criminality, which are very often—even more so with women—to do with mental health issues, as well as the fact that a very large proportion of women offenders are victims of domestic abuse. It is right that we have a female offender strategy that focuses on non-custodial measures; part of that will be women’s residential centres.

[Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Will the Minister update us on the sale or transfer to the Isle of Wight Council of Camp Hill prison? Is he aware of the importance of the site to the Island and to public housing on the Island, and does he understand the frustrations of Islanders, who see yet another bit of land being land-banked by either developers or Government Departments?

[Robert Buckland]

My hon. Friend is right to raise this issue. I am as anxious as him to ensure that that land can be put to good use. I wrote to him last month. We have commissioned a demolition survey of the former Camp Hill prison, and I will meet him when the results are available later this month. I will also visit the Island to see the prison estate and to talk about the matter directly with the Island council.