Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill (First sitting)

Bill Esterson Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th October 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Q In the past, there has been criticism from some in your organisation that there was no SME chapter in the treaties. Do you feel that the Bill provides sufficient protections and the mechanisms that you would wish to see to give that ongoing support to small businesses?

Lucy Monks: Yes. There are SME chapters in the Australia and New Zealand agreements. If we had a concern with the Bill and the issue around procurement, it would be that, as I said, small businesses tend to be cut out of the procurement process even in our own country, so both the FTA and anything that impacts procurement legislation need to be done in a way that supports small businesses. I am not as concerned about competition from Australian and New Zealand small businesses as I am about the ability for larger businesses to take opportunities that could be sitting there for smaller businesses.

Separate from that, for a long time there was a conversation between various Government Departments about trying to improve the central Government procurement system, not only for small businesses, but generally in its ability to encourage greater social value through public spending, basically. A couple of years ago, the Government finally published a social value model, part of which is supposed to be about encouraging engagement of small businesses both in the direct procurement system and as part of that supply chain. Obviously, larger businesses can go and bid for contracts, but they kind of have to promise that they will engage with x, y, z number of small businesses in delivering bits and pieces.

The Government have promised to keep monitoring how that model is implemented. I would ask that we keep monitoring how these measures are implemented in terms of both the ability for small businesses to actually access those procurement markets in Australia and New Zealand, and the impact of larger businesses that are going forward and trying to procure those projects and their ability to bring along UK small businesses as part of the process.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Good morning, Lucy. You talked about the potential challenge of larger Australian and New Zealand businesses winning UK Government contracts. Is there anything in the legislation you would like to see amended to support small UK businesses in winning Government contracts when facing that international competition?

[The Chair]

Lucy, just before you answer I should say that we have now been joined by Andy Burwell and William Bain. We have had a few technical problems, but welcome to you both. Will you please introduce yourselves briefly to the Committee?

Andy Burwell: Apologies, everyone, that I am not there with you—I have had a few childcare issues this morning. I am Andy Burwell, international director at the Confederation of British Industry. My team covers everything from trade to foreign policy, national security and, increasingly, supply chains.

William Bain: Good morning, Chair and Committee. I am pleased to be with you this morning. I am William Bain, head of trade policy at the British Chambers of Commerce.

[The Chair]

Thanks very much. Lucy has been holding the fort and was just about to answer Bill Esterson’s question, if she has not forgotten it.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Let me repeat the question so that the other witnesses can address it, too. Lucy made a point about the concern about larger Australian and New Zealand businesses winning Government contracts in the UK. I asked her what kind of amendment might be made to the legislation to support smaller UK businesses—to which we can add larger UK businesses, as you have both joined us—as a defensive measure in respect of UK Government procurement.

[The Chair]

We will take Lucy first as she was asked first.

Lucy Monks: Under the terms of the FTA, I guess we cannot be too defensive; otherwise, we will slightly defeat the point of what we are trying to achieve. I am sorry to bore on about this, but there are ways that small businesses can be encouraged to take opportunities that are available to them. For example, the Department for International Trade could support the implementation of, say, the small business chapter or the procurement chapters, where there is a clear push for the degree of information and support that would be needed for businesses to compete on an even keel. At the moment, small businesses are not even competing on an even ground.

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[The Chair]

Mr Esterson, have you finished your questioning or do you have further questions?

[Bill Esterson]

No, that is fine.

[The Chair]

I call Lloyd Russell-Moyle.

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[The Chair]

Can I remind everybody to stick to the scope of the Bill? A lot of the debate is very relevant, but please keep that in mind, in both asking questions and answering them.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Good morning, Leo. On the points you were making, the Bill is the implementation of the agreement; is there anything we can do by amending the Bill to address concerns we may have about what is in the free trade agreement?

Leo Verity: In terms of amending the content of the agreement, as it stands I do not think so. One of the things we would be concerned about with the Bill in particular is that it is going to entrench some of the failures we have already seen in the scrutiny process. For example, we submitted written evidence, alongside the Public Law Project, that talks about the fact the secondary legislation brought in under the Bill will be subject to the negative procedure, and how that compounds the overall scrutiny deficit. There will be no opportunity for further regulations to be brought in to implement the procurement chapter. There will be no opportunity to debate those statutory instruments, which I think is a problem.

This Bill is a vehicle for debating the agreement in the round. We had concerns that the Secretary of State said, in a session with the International Trade Committee during the CRaG process, that the process of implementing legislation was an opportunity to discuss the content of the Bill; we do not see how that is the case. I have spoken about the scrutiny context, but given how narrow this legislation is, and given that it focuses on one specific chapter of the agreement—the procurement chapter—there is no meaningful scope for that further debate. The thing that I think could be done with the legislation would be to ensure that our treaty scrutiny deficit is not furthered, by ensuring that regulations brought in under the Bill will be debated. There is nothing to reopen the content of the agreement.

[Bill Esterson]

Q You mentioned your concern about the negative procedure. I think by implication you were saying you would like to see that replaced with an affirmative procedure. What other concerns about the Bill do you have that you think we might want to address and attempt to amend?

Leo Verity: I have a couple of minor points on that, which, again, are covered in the written evidence that the Public Law Project did some fantastic work on. Some of the powers in clause 1 are not constrained by any kind of necessity test. I believe the wording is that regulations can be made where they are considered appropriate. I think that could potentially be problematic.

I know that concerns have also been expressed by the devolved Governments about the content and powers in the Bill. The Scottish Parliament has passed a legislative consent memorandum against the Bill on the basis that UK Ministers would be able to make further regulations without the need to refer back to Scottish Ministers. In addition to that, there are also some concerns expressed that there would not need to be further consultation with Scottish Ministers if the agreements were altered in the future. The Scottish Government have pointed out that that is a strange thing to include, given that the agreements have just been signed and this legislation will ultimately be superseded by the Procurement Bill that is with the Lords at the moment. Those are some of the areas that refer to treaty scrutiny and ensuring that any powers brought in under the Bill can be subject to proper scrutiny.

[Bill Esterson]

Q The Procurement Bill will repeal the provisions of this Bill. Given that the ratification of the FTAs is likely to be months away, why do you think the Government introduced this Bill separately?

Leo Verity: It is a good question. It also goes back to the point about the timelines for the Australian ratification of the agreement from their side. As far as I can infer, it is because the view is that this legislation can be passed quickly, and it is anticipated that the Procurement Bill will last for a long time. It often seems to be the case in the passage of these trade agreements that the Government have a tendency to impose arbitrary deadlines on themselves. We see it with the UK-India free trade agreement at the moment: we are two weeks away from the deadline that the Government imposed on themselves to come back with an agreement. That has been subject to criticism from ourselves, but also from lots of business groups and others.

There is no reason to be hasty in these agreements. These are new, from-scratch and comprehensive agreements, and as far as I can infer this legislation is in place so that the agreements can be signed off more quickly. That is what we have seen reflected in the scrutiny processes: there seems to have been a rush where none was needed. People on all sides of the argument accept the principle that more scrutiny is worth while, but that is all that I can read from it. Whether it is a good use of parliamentary time for this Bill to be debated in detail before being superseded by the Procurement Bill, I am not altogether certain, but that is an open question.

[The Chair]

I should just say that the session will finish at 10.35.

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill (Second sitting)

Bill Esterson Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th October 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Q Between the four of you, you have raised a number of concerns, including on standards, scale of production, particularly in Australia, quotas and their implementation, carbon footprints and local exemptions. If those concerns cannot be addressed in the Bill, do you think there is a way of addressing them in the Procurement Bill? If so, what sort of provisions might you want to see introduced in that legislation?

[The Chair]

Order. The hon. Gentleman, who is a very experienced Member, tempts our witnesses to comment on other Bills. Even though he does so in the context of this Bill, that is slightly out of scope of the Bill. Perhaps he might rephrase his question.

[Bill Esterson]

I can certainly rephrase it. What sort of provisions would you ideally like to see in this Bill?

[Chair]

Excellent. You confirm your experience and political agility.

Nick von Westenholz: I touched on it earlier: much as we might want to say, “We can amend the hell out of the primary legislation in order to amend the FTA,” that will not happen, and I also do not think that would be right. The FTA has been negotiated by the UK Government’s negotiators, and what they have come back with has been agreed with Australia and New Zealand. Trying to change the details of it through primary legislation would simply mean opening up the negotiations again; we would have to go back and renegotiate.

I might think that there are elements of the FTA that need renegotiating, but the way to do that is to have much more transparency and scrutiny throughout the negotiation process. As I said earlier, that was agreed in the exchange of letters between the International Agreements Committee and the Government. The Government committed to sharing their objectives before negotiations opened, to sharing updates throughout the negotiations with Parliament, and to providing for a debate on an amendable motion at the end of the process. If the Government do that, one could be pretty assured that the negotiations would end up with a result that is more palatable to a whole range of UK stakeholders. That did not happen in this case, and that is why there has been serious disquiet, particularly in the farming sector, about the deals.

Gareth Parry: Ever since the trade deals were mooted, we have been calling for a level playing field when our producers are in competition, or even greater competition, with producers in Australia and New Zealand. We could be here for hours discussing differences in production methods and standards between the countries, but my understanding is that there is no provision in the trade deals that would allow us to influence how those countries produce food and vice versa. From my understanding, that is why quotas and tariffs are used in trading across the world. If we are not allowed to influence how food is produced in another country, we use quotas and tariffs to create that level playing field. As Nick said, perhaps they cannot be incorporated to negotiate the current FTAs, but they definitely need to be considered when future trade deals come down the line.

Jonnie Hall: I thought the issues of concern were articulated very well in the first question. If they are the issues of concern, it strikes me as being a bit odd that they would be dealt with in legislation on Government procurement, rather than in the original process governing the trade agreements. I guess I am echoing what has been said by Nick and Gareth.

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[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

Q Thank you for that, Rosa—much appreciated. I want to bring you on to the way that the Secretary of State gets to introduce these secondary pieces of legislation, because that is how much of the Bill will be enacted in reality, not through on what is on the face of the Bill. There is no requirement for them to consult with businesses, trade unions or other stakeholders. I am not suggesting that we create a complex mechanism, but what is your view on a line requiring the Secretary of State at least to demonstrate that they have consulted stakeholders and potentially the International Trade Committee, and sought their views before the laying of a negative or positive procedure? What is your view on requiring consultation with the International Trade Committee and stakeholders such as trade unions?

Rosa Crawford: We would strongly support the inclusion of such a provision because, as I say, it is essential to consult trade unions on the provisions in all parts of the trade agreement. On public procurement specifically, we need consultation with the unions to ensure we have the requirements there so that international labour standards and environmental standards are upheld, and that we pursue public objectives such as reducing inequalities through public procurement. That consultation with trade unions and parliamentarians is really important. The International Trade Committee is an important Committee that should be consulted, because there is expertise there on the public procurement provisions; then maybe other Committees that are relevant and have an interest should be consulted. Having that requirement for consultation with MPs would be a welcome addition to the Bill.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Can we go back, Rosa, to what you were saying about the impact on workers’ rights, and indeed environmental considerations? Can I confirm that your concern—or one of your concerns—about the Bill and the trade agreement behind it is that organisations have the ability to undercut rights and standards, in spite of what is elsewhere in domestic legislation?

Rosa Crawford: Yes, that is correct. With both the UK-Australia and the UK-New Zealand trade agreements, you have a weak labour chapter that makes reference only to the ILO declaration, rather than a requirement of fundamental international labour organisation standards respected by both parties. That is an issue in Australia and New Zealand because, despite the fact they both have progressive Governments, neither has ratified all the fundamental ILO conventions. New Zealand has not ratified the fundamental conventions on minimum age, health and safety, or freedom of association, and Australia has not ratified the fundamental conventions on minimum age, and health and safety.

Without that base of fundamental rights, there can be potential for a pressure on rights to lower here, as businesses take advantage of the market access they can get through the UK-Australia and UK-New Zealand trade agreements to places where they can potentially respect rights less. That could pressure rights to be lowered here. You do not have a labour chapter that has high standards, requirements and rights, and it has an ineffective enforcement mechanism that requires a proven effect on investment and trade, which we think will be difficult to meet.

There are similar provisions in the CPTPP labour chapter, despite the fact that CPTPP contains countries that are egregiously breaching labour rights—such as Vietnam, where trade unions are banned, as well as Brunei. We have not seen the CPTPP labour chapter being used at all. To us, those kinds of provisions are ineffective when they are included in a trade agreement, so it is concerning that the trade agreements we have with Australia and New Zealand do not have those effective provisions in place for labour standards. It sets a concerning standard for trade agreements we might sign with future partners, particularly as the Government are considering signing trade deals with places where labour rights are much worse, such as Gulf states, India and Israel.

The direction of travel is concerning in Australia and New Zealand. The inadequate protections around environmental standards also have an impact on workers’ rights; allowing produce with lower environmental safety standards to be imported into the UK potentially exposes workers here to more dangerous chemicals and other production methods that impact on workers’ safety and protection. We are concerned about the approach taken in both agreements.

[Gareth Thomas]

Q You said in your earlier evidence that the previous Secretary of State had promised to include the TUC in private discussions about free trade agreements, presumably including the Australia and New Zealand deals, but that that had not happened. Has the general secretary of the Trades Union Congress ever had an apology from the Department for International Trade for not including you and adhering to that promise?

Rosa Crawford: No. We have just had several pledges from successive Secretaries of State for International Trade. Liz Truss, when she was Secretary of State, had a meeting with our general secretary, Frances O’Grady, in which she assured her that unions would be included on these trade advisory groups. As I say, that was in September 2021.

Then our general secretary had a series of meetings with Liz Truss’s successor, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, including a meeting that also included the US trade ambassador Katherine Tai. She also made the pledge that trade unions would be included on these trade advisory groups. After that meeting, she appeared before the International Trade Committee in April this year, where she said that she hoped that trade unions would be included on the trade advisory groups as soon as possible, but we still have not seen any sign of that.

We hope that the new Secretary of State for International Trade will make good on that promise. We have written to Secretary Badenoch to request that the Government fulfil their pledge to include trade unions on the trade advisory groups, but we still have not seen anything. We are surprised and concerned that we have not seen progress in over a year since the Government pledged to include unions in the group. As I say, the outcomes are that we are getting trade agreements that are undermining workers’ rights, and new trade talks are being launched with really serious implications for workers’ rights with countries such as Israel, India and the Gulf states.

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill (Third sitting)

Bill Esterson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th October 2022 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

If colleagues would like to remove their jackets, they can—it is rather warm in here. I remind colleagues to put their electronic devices on silent. I call Bill Esterson.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Pritchard. I was struck by a number of points that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West made about the fact that the Bill is about procurement alone, and about the way that it has been drawn up. He said at the start of his speech, in talking about the then Trade Secretary, who is now the Prime Minister, that a few mistakes were made in negotiating the trade agreements—that things were done in a rush. In listening to my hon. Friend make the case for the amendment, I wondered whether that is becoming something of a habit of this Government. It was not just the way the agreements were negotiated but the way that the Bill was brought forward—and just last night, of course, the Prime Minister apologised to the nation for the mistakes that she made as head of the Government in the recent mini-Budget and the disastrous effect that it had on the economy.

The clause gives Ministers the powers to put into operation what my hon. Friend and others have referred to as GPA-plus, with contracts of unknown value, and more contracts being advertised, to benefit not just companies from Australia and New Zealand but companies across the world whose countries are GPA members. I found what my hon. Friend said about the—I assume—unintended consequences extraordinary. I hope we all agree that if they are intended consequences, that would be a very retrograde step, because it would be deliberately harmful to small and medium-sized businesses in the country. As we heard from the Federation of Small Businesses and the other business groups that gave evidence to the Committee last week, it is already very difficult for smaller firms to get contracts in this country. Like my hon. Friend, I hope that the Government genuinely mean it when they say that they are trying to improve the situation for smaller firms bidding for Government contracts.

Government procurement is one of the best ways to stimulate the economy and push funds through smaller firms, which are a source of growth, of much innovation and creativity, and of job creation across our country. That is an incredibly important part of what any Government should offer if they want success, and it is at the heart of the Labour party’s offer in our industrial strategy and in our plans to make, buy and sell more in Britain. I hope that the Government’s approach to the legislation has not undermined support for small firms.

As my hon. Friend set out, if that has not been considered because the Bill has been rushed, some countries—the example of the Republic of Ireland is a good one, but the same applies to other European Union countries—may see an opportunity to win contracts in the United Kingdom at the expense of UK firms, in particular smaller ones, purely by dint of the fact that they have gained a competitive advantage through very poorly drafted legislation. I fear that that risks making it harder, not easier, for domestic companies to benefit from Government spending.

My hon. Friend was also right to mention the carbon footprint aspect. It cannot make sense for us to move away from the idea that, where it is sensible, domestic firms should win contracts from public bodies and, in building a more resilient, local supply chain and delivering British jobs, should have the best possible advantage. I will add one thing to my hon. Friend’s excellent point about the carbon footprint: in the light of the international situation—we all know that we face serious times because of Putin’s invasion of Ukraine—building greater domestic resilience in our supply chains must be a fundamental part of public policy. Moving away from that, which would weaken supply chains and make it harder for small firms in this country to win contracts from our own Government, sounds to me like the opposite of improving resilience and supporting the economy around the country.

I share my hon. Friend’s concern that the consequence of subsections (2) and (3) would be to weaken potential support for UK businesses and the jobs of the people who work in them. For those reasons, I agree with him that we should support amendment 19 and remove those subsections from the Bill.

[The Chair]

It gives me great pleasure to call the Minister, Sir James Duddridge.

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[Gareth Thomas]

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Although I am not 100% convinced by the argument that he advanced, this is a probing amendment and we will reflect on what he said.

We cannot find any evidence that there was a consultation with the FSB or anyone else on the impact of extending contracts of unknown value and length and on the requirement to advertise them online and in English to every other country with which we have a trade agreement, notwithstanding the Minister’s argument and the evidence we heard in Committee that there have been consultations between the Department for International Trade and the representatives of small and medium-sized businesses. I wonder, therefore, whether this so-called GPA-plus provision has had quite the attention it merits.

[Bill Esterson]

Did my hon. Friend notice that the Minister did not actually address one of the central points that he and I raised, which is that the opportunity would be widened to all countries that are signed up to the GPA? That causes great concern about the loss of contracts to businesses in this country.

[Gareth Thomas]

To be fair to the Minister, he sort of touched on the issue in very loose terms. Perhaps my hon. Friend may be reassured that amendment 5, which we are inching towards, would require much more consultation down the line. Perhaps that is a way to try to improve things for SMEs across the UK.

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We have heard evidence from the farming unions, and the estimated losses vary considerably, but according to the Farmers’ Union of Wales we are talking about a £29 million loss of gross output for Wales’s beef and sheep sectors. The other worrying point that has been mentioned several times is the precedent for future trade deals and the implications of the sections of the Bill that open the doors for anybody and everybody. Another point made by the FUW is about the reduction in food security. In the light of recent events, I cannot imagine why anybody would want to reduce our food security; in fact, there is a good case for doing the exact opposite.

[Bill Esterson]

My hon. Friend is making the case very well about the need to involve the farming and agriculture industry in trade agreement scrutiny. Was she struck, like I was, by the comments from Jonnie Hall of NFU Scotland about “retrospective scrutiny” and the fact that this weakened the role of the Trade and Agriculture Commission? Does she share my view that the evidence we heard is exactly why we need the kind of analysis referred to in amendment 7 before the regulations are implemented?

[Dame Nia Griffith]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. The whole point is that there should have been much better consultation, either directly with the farming unions or by their representatives in the Scottish and Welsh Governments who have raised these points and have very good, close relations with the stakeholder groups in their respective nations. As my hon. Friend rightly says, a number of concerns were raised by the NFU. The whole point of having consultation and impact assessments is that those concerns can be properly documented and we do not rush into the legislation produced by clause 1 and leave people in a more difficult predicament.

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Other countries do not do it like that; in most others, their Parliaments and trade commissions are involved at the beginning of the trade negotiations. In France, they have the social pact of trade unions, businesses and NGOs all sitting around the table together through the creation of any form of international agreement. That is replicated in the European Union, where France and other European countries negotiate trade deals. The Government have refused to implement that, so ensuring that under the regulations they have, first, to consult with the TAC is an important amendment, because we cannot trust that they will do it on their good word alone.

[Bill Esterson]

My hon. Friend makes good points about the way that France and European Union scrutinise trade agreements. In the context of agriculture, the other really good example is the United States. Recently, the United States trade unions had access to negotiating texts during the negotiation period and were able to insist on improvements to employment rights in the recent United States-Mexico-Canada agreement, which, crucially, protects workers in Mexico who face draconian approaches and attacks on trade unionists. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should have a similar process in this country? In the absence of that process, the amendments are a desperately needed back-up.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I totally agree. The US is a much better example than us of scrutiny and engagement. It engages its elected representatives early on. We see a Democrat Government there—one of our sister parties—putting trade unions and small businesses front and centre in their ongoing prosperity, rather than trying to run roughshod and have corrupt practices, which the previous party of Government in the US was all in favour of.

There is a better way of doing this. The amendments are not the ideal. I am, desperately unfortunately, missing my Select Committee inquiry this morning on international trade agreements and how we how we process them. I am sure I will read the transcript of the evidence hearing with fascination this evening. The Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee’s inquiry makes it clear that the current ways that we produce trade deals and scrutinise their implementation—what these amendments are about—are inadequate. They are inadequate because they were created in an age when most of it was farmed off to the European Union and we had strong scrutiny processes of secondary legislation that came via the European Union—Committees that looked at that and debates in Parliament.

All that was swept aside—I will not get into the rights and wrongs of leaving the European Union. We have then just relied on a CRaG process and no other proper form of ongoing scrutiny process, which we would have accepted under the European Union, or which every other country has now developed, because trade deals are dynamic.

Gone are the days when trade deals were fixed in one piece of writing; they are ongoing, living, breathing documents. That is quite right, because trade deals really are multilateral deals on numerous issues: on not just direct trade but intellectual property and procurement, as we are discussing today. They affect the domestic implementation of issues, affecting how councils and public bodies are able to go about their day-to-day business, and the ability to consult.

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The former Trade Minister, the right hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns), in his barbed criticism of the Prime Minister at the Conservative party conference, talked about the need to move away from a time when trade policy seemed to be as much about Instagram photos as anything else. I strongly agree with that. Once an agreement has been negotiated, we need to get into the details of what has been agreed and think through properly the different impacts of each of the procurement chapters. A little more consultation might help achieve that.

[Bill Esterson]

My hon. Friend is talking about consultation and amendment 5 refers to the representatives of the English regions. Earlier, the Minister was talking about Essex County Council. He did not mention Southend-on-Sea City Council, where he is a Member of Parliament. I could not help but notice that the procurement objectives of Southend are:

“Maximising the opportunities for Social Value, Economic Sustainability, and benefits for the local community”.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister, in accepting the amendment, would do well to engage with the objectives of his own local authority to ensure that procurement policy is put into practice in a proper way?

[Gareth Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point in suggesting that the Minister look to his own backyard in the troubled times that he and his party are in at the moment. In the context of the free trade agreements’ procurement chapters, it would be particularly helpful for the Minister to seek the views of Labour-run Southend-on-Sea City Council and see whether it agrees with the stance that he is likely to be advancing, which I suspect will be against the idea of more consultation—

Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Bill Esterson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th October 2022 Public Bill Committees

There was concern that trade unions were not consulted. I can assure the Committee that there are six trade advisory groups on which the unions serve. In fact, the union representative mentioned in her evidence a number of meetings that Frances O’Grady had been in with the Secretary of State, rather proving the point that there has been consultation. However, there is an underlying point that the hon. Member for Sefton Central made about unions needing to be represented. We need to be very careful. In our democratic position, we need to consult, but it is our job as democratically elected individuals to make those decisions. We should consult, but it is us who decide. We do not want to put outside bodies, whether it is the CBI or the unions, in decision-making positions; we want to put them in advisory and consultative positions.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Rosa Crawford pointed out that the trade unions had never been given a place on the trade advisory groups since they were set up, if the Minister remembers last week’s evidence session. Why is it that in the United States the trade unions have access to negotiating texts and are able to influence changes, as they did in protecting workers in Mexico? Does he think that that is right or wrong? If he thinks it is right, why does he not allow it to happen in this country?

[Sir James Duddridge]

The unions are involved in the trade advisory groups. There is, I think, one issue with an offer that has been made to one union to join, but it is holding out because it wants another union also to be involved and is therefore not participating.

On returning to the Department after the previous sitting, one of my officials expressed surprise at the evidence given because it contradicted something she had been at—she had been present at one of those meetings. While I am happy to look again and the current Secretary of State has made it clear that she wants all consultees to be included in the process, we are the decision makers in our process, and I would not want to contract out UK Government decision making to any organisation.

I am not going to answer the question on the United States. I am responsible for many things, but not the system in the US.