Oral Answers to Questions

Ben Gummer Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

8. How many staff working in the NHS have been recruited from other European countries in the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)]

There are no centrally held data on the countries from which NHS staff are recruited, but self-reported nationality data suggest that 15,723 non-UK European nationals joined the NHS in England and that 7,900 left, leaving a net increase of 7,800. As the Minister responsible for the NHS workforce, may I say that every single one of them is very welcome in, and provides an invaluable contribution to, our NHS?

[Fiona Mactaggart]

The problem is that the Immigration Minister’s waffle yesterday and Ministers’ warm words today are not giving confidence to these vital NHS employees. Has the Minister spoken to the Immigration Minister to request that he guarantee permanent residence to every EU national working in the NHS so that they can have the security that they—and we, their patients—need?

[Ben Gummer]

The Home Secretary is well aware of the enormous contribution that EU nationals make to the NHS. We all have a duty to undo the damage done during the referendum campaign and the poisonous atmosphere that exists in some parts of our communities and to thank personally—I will be doing so myself—EU nationals working in the NHS for their hard work and dedication so that they feel valued by each and every one of us.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

There has been a 27% surge in trainee applications to NHS Scotland because of the conflict around the junior doctors contract in England, and now doctors and academics from the EU are not taking up posts here because of the Brexit vote. With a one-in-four rota gap in many specialties, how does the Minister plan to sustain the current service, let alone extend it?

[Ben Gummer]

As much as I admire and like the hon. Lady, my opposite number on the Scottish National party Benches, I think that the behaviour of some of her colleagues in Scotland during the junior doctors dispute was not in the spirit of concord by which we try to establish relations with the devolved Administrations. I do not recognise the figures she quoted about junior doctors—I am glad that we have recruited well in this country during this difficult period—but I know that she will want to thank the British Medical Association for its work in bringing the dispute to an end. I hope that in the next few days we will come to a conclusion suitable for everyone.

[Dr Whitford]

I thank the Minister for that and for his welcome to EU nationals here, but with the Secretary of State merely repeating what the Immigration Minister said yesterday and given what the Home Secretary has said, does he not understand the urgent situation facing EU nationals working here? With more than 100,000 of them, do we not want to give them security of residency now to avoid haemorrhaging vital staff from the NHS?

[Ben Gummer]

The Home Secretary said she was confident we could get a deal ensuring that they could stay, but we need a new Prime Minister able to start the negotiations caused by the decision of the British people on 23 June. I say in my capacity as a Health Minister— the House has heard from other Members, including the Secretary of State—that we have full confidence in the EU nationals working in the NHS and wish to praise their contribution, which makes the NHS a better organisation.

[Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)]

The head of the NHS, Simon Stevens, has strongly defended the role of immigrants in the NHS, saying that there has never been a time in its 68-year history when the NHS has not

“relied on committed employees from around the world”.

One of these employees was my own mother, who migrated from Jamaica to the UK in the 1950s to be a pupil nurse. Workers from the EU and other countries are the backbone not just of the NHS but of our social care system, which is facing many challenges. Does the Minister agree that we should be thanking these hard-working individuals for their service, not leaving them with questions about their status and job security?

[Ben Gummer]

I agree entirely with the hon. Lady that we should be thanking EU nationals working in the NHS and social care system. She herself is evidence of the enormous contribution of migrant labourers, not just in the first generation but in subsequent ones. We, as a nation and a House, should be grateful for it. This is a difficult time for many EU nationals in this country, and we should be thanking them not just for the numbers but for the special qualities they bring. In my constituency, the amazing Portuguese nurses in Ipswich hospital bring qualities and skills that some of our own nurses in our own country do not possess in our own hospitals.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

9. What the cost to the public purse was in 2015-16 of providing interpreters for people using the NHS who did not speak English.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

12. What assessment he has made of the potential effect of the proposed removal of NHS bursaries on the number of applications from mature students for nurse training places.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)]

Mature students represent a significant proportion of the nursing, midwifery and allied health professions’ workforce. Looking at what happened following the introduction of the maximum £9,000 per annum tuition fees in 2012, the latest UCAS data for last year show that full-time mature student numbers have now significantly exceeded previous levels.

[Dr Allin-Khan]

I am proud to have served on the front line of our national health service for the last 10 years, and to ask my first question on its 68th birthday.

St George’s hospital in my constituency is operating at a significant deficit, partly owing to expensive agency staff costs. Does the Minister agree that cutting NHS bursaries for nurses, midwives, radiographers and other allied health professionals will prevent the recruitment and retention of high-quality trained staff and make the problem worse?

[Ben Gummer]

I welcome the hon. Lady to her seat. She fought a courageous campaign, and it is good to see her in the Chamber. She brings expertise to the House, which is also very welcome.

I agree with the first part of the hon. Lady’s question—the deficit at her local hospital is indeed partly caused by the excessive costs of agency nurses, and we are trying to put a cap on those costs—but I am afraid I disagree with the second part. I believe that changes in nurse bursaries will enable us to get more nurses and healthcare professionals into the NHS. There has been a similar development in the rest of the higher education sector, and I want to replicate that success in the NHS so that we can provide it with the workers that it requires.

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I, too, am delighted to welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan) to her seat. Her recent experience on the front line of the NHS will be of great value, and we in the Labour party pride ourselves on listening to NHS staff. Let me also put on record my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) for the excellent job that she did as shadow Secretary of State.

I must challenge the Minister again about the impact of this policy on mature students. According to an answer given to me by his colleague the Minister for Universities and Science, in 2010-11 there were 740,000 enrolments in higher education among people aged 21 or over. Let me ask a simple question: in 2014-15, after tuition fees trebled, was the number of enrolments among mature students higher or lower?

[Ben Gummer]

I echo the hon. Gentleman’s remarks about the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander). She gave the House admirable assistance in challenging the Government, and I regret her loss from the Opposition Front Bench.

The latest figure from UCAS, for 2015, shows that the number of mature student applications has risen since the introduction of £9,000 tuition fees, but the hon. Gentleman is right to identify that factor as a challenge in relation to our new plans. That is why we asked open questions during the consultation, and I hope that, now that it has closed, we shall be able to respond to those questions to ensure that we can give the best possible assistance to mature students who want to become nurses.

[Justin Madders]

According to the universities Minister, the number of mature students enrolling in universities has fallen by 22%. If that were repeated in the health sector, what is already a staffing crisis would become a catastrophe. The Minister has said that an extra 10,000 training places will be created during the current Parliament, but everything I have heard from the Government suggests that that figure was plucked out of thin air. What is the baseline figure for the Minister’s claim—10,000 more places compared to when?

[Ben Gummer]

There will be 10,000 additional places over the five years from when the policy was announced last year, and that will give NHS organisations throughout the country the assistance that will enable them to bring down their agency costs. It is only through such bold initiatives that we can reform the NHS for the betterment of patient care throughout the country.

[Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)]

13. What assessment his Department has made of the potential effect of measures to reduce the size of NHS deficits on NHS staff numbers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)]

Trusts and foundation trusts are responsible for ensuring that their workforces are affordable, given the financial control totals that have been set for this financial year. We are clear about the fact that the first priority in the reduction of provider deficits will be to reduce unsustainable spending on high-cost temporary staff.

[Margaret Greenwood]

Five per cent. of NHS workers in England come from the European Union. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that every effort is made to retain those skilled workers, and will he provide them with the confirmation of their permanent employment status that they so urgently need?

[Ben Gummer]

At the risk of repeating what the Secretary of State and I have said previously, we very much welcome the contribution of all EU nationals working in the NHS. It is for the process of the negotiations to establish the precise status of everyone, both EU nationals and British nationals working abroad. That was not my choice at the referendum, but the decision has been made by the British people. I hope that the hon. Lady will take comfort from what the Home Secretary has been clear about: that she hopes to be able to secure a deal so that we can retain EU nationals in this country.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

Can the Minister confirm that the challenge to NHS budgets will not compromise in any way the provision of sufficient consultants and middle-grade doctors to not only keep North Middlesex hospital open, but to provide sufficient care to patients and proper quality training to trainee doctors?

[Ben Gummer]

The problems at my hon. Friend’s hospital are a result of management issues and long-running troubles that the hospital has encountered. I hope we will be able to fix them in the short term and provide long-term solutions, which I will be briefing about in the days to come.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

T8. Community hospitals such as John Coupland in Gainsborough are very popular, yet health authorities seem intent on centralising services. Will the Secretary of State today make clear his absolute commitment to supporting local community hospitals and giving them work, and state that there will be no closures without his personal authorisation?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)]

Community hospitals form an important part of the NHS landscape and are valued by local communities, many of which have contributed to them through their fundraising efforts. The Secretary of State has to abide by the decisions of the Independent Reconfiguration Panel and the advice of clinicians, but it is clear that community hospitals that evolve and modernise will have a place in the NHS in the future.

[Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)]

T6. The cancer drugs fund is due to be handed back to NICE later this month. In May, 15 leading UK cancer charities published an open letter detailing their concern that that would see patients missing out on clinically proven cancer drugs because the NICE system is outdated and no longer fit for purpose. Will the Secretary of State agree to carry out a wide-ranging review of NICE’s health technology appraisal process for cancer drugs to ensure that all cancer patients can access the drugs they need?