Children and Families Bill

Baroness Tyler of Enfield Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Storey (LD)]

I will speak to Amendments 263 and 264. If you said to some parents that you were going to put their son or daughter or both in a tin box, cut some holes in the box, then fill it with smoke, put it on wheels and drive it around all the time, they would think you were absolutely mad. The tin box is almost like a coffin because you are killing children. You are literally killing children.

My parents were heavy smokers; they smoked 40 Senior Service every day. In fact, they smoked so much that our living room ceiling turned yellow once a year and had to be repainted. I always remember that when my father drove me through the Mersey Tunnel he would say, “We’ll have to put the window up because you can die from carbon monoxide poisoning, you know”, yet—perhaps this is why I get chest infections regularly—he was putting our family in that sort of situation. Of course, he did not know about the effects.

All of us look back at things in our lives that we are really proud of. The thing that I am most proud of in politics was that we introduced Smokefree Liverpool. Thanks to support from noble Lords of all groupings, we were able to influence, in a small part, government thinking. You often get people saying, “Oh, it’s the nanny state. We don’t want a nanny state. We don’t want people telling us what to do. If we ban smoking in cars, the next thing will be that we ban it in the house as well”. Well, nannies are there to protect and look after children, and a nanny state should be there to look after and protect children.

Children are particularly vulnerable to second-hand smoking as they breathe more rapidly and inhale more pollutants than adults. ASH has shown that parental smoking is a causal factor of asthma in children, and that the prevalence of asthma increases when the number of smokers in a car or in the home increases. Children exposed to second-hand smoking also have an increased risk of lower respiratory infections, bronchitis, middle ear disease, bacterial meningitis and sudden infant death syndrome. There is also a very social issue, one that is directly related to making our society fairer. Evidence has shown that children living in the poorest households have the greatest levels of exposure to smoking and that passive smoking has been shown to affect children’s mental development and school absenteeism. That clearly undermines our efforts to increase social mobility. Experts have suggested that banning smoking in cars while driving with children is an important step in limiting the effect of second-hand smoking.

For those more interested in the economic side, the numbers are staggering. The health disorders caused by smoke-generated disorders cost the NHS about £23.3 million a year. In particular, £4 million is spent on asthma drugs for children up to the age of 16. The future treatment costs for smokers who take up smoking as a consequence of smoking by a parent could be as high as £5.7 million each year. Parents need to consider that, in choosing to smoke, they will find it difficult to explain to the children why they in turn should not smoke. The NHS has shown that children who grow up with a parent or family member who smokes are three times as likely to start smoking themselves. As we can see, the issue has implications for public health and our society in general, and ignoring it would mean ignoring the poll in 2009 which found that a majority of adults in England were in favour of banning smoking in cars, with 74% opposed to smoking in cars with children. The message is clear: if we really care about our children and want to improve their health and social mobility, this is a step that we can take.

I can look back, as no doubt all of us can, at moments in our social policies where there has been resistance from some quarters, whether it be from government or a powerful lobby, but the will of people has always come out. Noble Lords may remember the row about seatbelts: “Ooh, you can’t have the nanny state making people wear seatbelts”. In the end we had the courage to fight for that, and we cut the number of deaths in traffic accidents considerably. There was even a fuss about making people riding motorbikes wear crash helmets; there was a feeling that, “We shouldn’t do that. The nanny state is interfering by telling people that they must wear a helmet”. It is quite right that they should wear helmets. More recently, we have had the issue of smoking in public places. As a Government, we have a duty and a responsibility to do this.

Governments of all political persuasions have to think very carefully and be led by evidence, not by emotion or lobbying. I understand that the issue of plain packaging for tobacco products is something that the Government were committed to but they wanted to see quite clearly that the policy that was agreed, particularly in Australia, brought results. It is now clear that that policy is having an impact, and I hope that the Government, having initially said, “Let us wait and see”, might now say, “Come on, this is an opportunity to move forward”. I look forward to the Minister responding to the pressure from your Lordships here.

On children in cars, I would prefer that we agree the amendment in its entirety, but if we cannot do that, we could think about taking the first step by having public information, as we used to do. We could provide adverts and publicity material so that parents could see what needs to be done. But if we really want to be progressive and move forward, we should support these amendments.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I rise extremely briefly because I had my go on Monday. I want to add just one point to what my noble friend Lord Storey has said. Some people are saying, “Let’s start with an awareness-raising campaign. Let’s see what we can do there. We don’t need to go straight to legislation”. I do not agree with that. The most effective example that I can cite was the introduction of legislation for the wearing of seatbelts. Awareness-raising had been tried, but it achieved only 25% compliance rates, but soon after the legislation was introduced, alongside the awareness-raising effort—you need both; it is not one or the other—91% of adults started to wear seatbelts. As my noble friend said, it is clear that it has saved lives. I think that very few people in this country, and certainly the polls show it, now think that that is an infringement of civil liberties.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I should perhaps declare an interest as chairman of an NHS foundation trust, as a consultant trainer to Cumberlege Connections and as president of GS1. I welcome this debate. I am delighted to see Amendments 263 and 264, and I have put my name, alongside that of my noble friend Lady Hughes, to Amendments 265 and 266, which are essentially amendments to Amendment 264.

As my noble friend Lady Hughes said on Monday, ever since the advertising ban came in, cigarette packaging has been the way in which tobacco companies have sought to market their products. That is why they spend millions on developing their packaging by testing its attractiveness to potential new customers, and that is why standardised packaging is such an important issue. Amendments 265 and 266 build on the excellent Amendment 264. Essentially, we seek to strengthen that amendment by requiring the Secretary of State to make regulations rather than by simply giving him the discretion to do so. It is important that Ministers are left in no doubt that they need to introduce standardised packaging, which is why I hope that those noble Lords who have proposed Amendment 264 and spoken so eloquently to it will accept our amendments to strengthen the provision. What has happened over the past two years or so would suggest that it is better not to give Ministers discretion in this area.

When the noble Earl comes to wind up, it would be helpful if he could explain the Government’s change of view on this matter. He will know that the former health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, said:

“The evidence is clear that packaging helps to recruit smokers, so it makes sense to consider having less attractive packaging”.

It was widely reported in March this year that legislation to enforce plain packaging for cigarettes would be included in the Queen’s Speech. In April, the then public health Minister, Anna Soubry, said that, having seen the evidence, she had been personally persuaded of the case for standardised plain packaging for cigarettes, but in July we heard the announcement that this was going to be postponed because we would wait and see what happened in Australia.

Will the Minister explain to us why the Government changed their mind and does he agree that the systematic review of all the evidence on standardised packaging commissioned by his department and published alongside the Government’s original consultation showed clearly the strong evidence that standardised packaging would help to reduce smoking rates by reducing the attractiveness and appeal of tobacco products and increasing the noticeability and effectiveness of health warnings and messages? Will he also acknowledge that two internal Philip Morris International corporate affairs documents from February and March 2012 showed that the top lobbying message for the world’s largest tobacco company was to use the strapline, “Wait and see what happens in Australia”? Why have the Government fallen for that attempt? Why on earth should we wait to see what happens in Australia? Cricket aside, I have great fondness for Australia and Australians, but why on earth are we waiting to see what happens there?

We have always been a world leader in this area with actions such as introducing smoking bans in pubs and enclosed spaces, ending tobacco companies’ sports sponsorship and billboard advertising, raising the legal age for purchasing cigarettes and the introduction of graphic warnings on cigarette packs. We have been a leader and our actions have had an impact. We have seen a dramatic reduction in the number of young smokers. Why on earth do we not want to continue in that vein? The Government will be in no doubt about the strength of feeling in your Lordships’ House and I have no doubt whatever that it wishes to see action taken on this issue. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to give us some comfort that the Government recognise that we should get on with tackling this issue.

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[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 266AA would introduce regulations to enable shared parental leave to be taken on a part-time basis, if desired, rather than in blocks of at least a week. I am grateful to Working Families for its assistance with this amendment, which has the support of a long list of organisations, and to the noble Viscount for meeting me and Adrienne Burgess of the Fatherhood Institute recently.

The amendment attempts to hold the Government to their original proposal in the Modern Workplaces consultation: that parents would be able to take the new form of leave in,

“smaller chunks or on a part-time basis”,

if their employer agreed. This was warmly welcomed by both family organisations and employers, yet the Bill reverts to a minimum period of a week at a time. There are many arguments in favour of part-time leave, which is a feature of many parental leave schemes elsewhere in Europe. It would help low-income parents who may not be able to afford full-week periods of leave for any length of time. The TUC points out this week that inadequate financial support for new parents impacts disproportionately on low-income families. Indeed, more flexible leave that could be used to complement part-time work was proposed in a Joseph Rowntree Foundation report on tackling in-work poverty published just last week.

It would allow for a smooth transition back to work, which could make it easier to settle children into childcare. It could encourage fathers, who might be reluctant to take a full-time block of leave, to take parental leave. In doing so, it could help usher in the change of culture of redefining early parenting as a joint responsibility that the Government keep talking about and that many of us want to see. I shall expand on this when I move Amendment 266B. It could provide parents with flexibility and could make it easier for employers. It is worth noting that, in a recent survey by the Family and Childcare Trust, flexible working was parents’ top priority for improving the quality of family life. This is just one aspect of flexible working, but it is an important one.

The Government have said that they are sympathetic to the idea but are concerned at the administrative complexity involved. They have suggested an extension of keeping-in-touch days as an alternative solution. While such an extension is welcome, it is not a substitute for part-time leave. Parents do not have to be paid for attending keeping-in-touch days, which are designed for a different purpose.

If the Government are genuinely open to the idea of part-time leave, surely it would make sense to make provision for it to be introduced at a later date by secondary legislation, once it has found a way through the administrative hurdles. I therefore hope that the Minister will be willing to take this away and give it further consideration. I cannot believe that where there is a political will there is no legislative and administrative way. If the Minister is not prepared to consider taking such regulation-making powers, I can only assume that there is no political will to inject this important element of flexibility into the parental leave scheme, despite the fact that flexibility lies at the heart of the scheme’s policy objectives as set out in the impact statement. I beg to move.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

My Lords, to explain why I am sympathetic to this amendment, while I am supportive of what the Government are seeking to do through shared parental leave, which is absolutely right, the amendment raises two particularly important points. One is the position of parents on low incomes who will find it difficult to afford long periods of leave, particularly if they are working at less than the minimum wage. We know that the number of people working at, or even below, the minimum wage is significant.

Secondly, the amendment would allow that smooth transition back into work which may help children settle into childcare. From the work that I have done in other contexts around childcare, it is clear that it helps some children to be eased into childcare on a part-time basis, rather than going for a whole week’s worth. For those two reasons, I am particularly sympathetic and attracted to the amendment, although I cannot pretend to have been involved in all the detailed thinking around it.

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I take the point, but 2018 is five years away and three years on from implementation. The impact assessment stated that the review would take place in 2017 and suggested that the basis of that review might be statutory, yet no review has been written into the legislation. Other amendments will expand on this point. Moreover, I do not share the Minister’s confidence that, as it stands, the legislation will help to achieve this culture change that we both want to see. It would be helpful to monitor progress annually from the word go and to place any review on a statutory basis. I beg to move.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

My Lords, I am sympathetic to the thinking behind the amendment. The idea of a “father quota”—an independent right for fathers to at least four weeks of leave—could be important if we are to achieve our aim, which the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, set out clearly and which is all about changing the culture.

There are two aspects of the culture that need to be changed. One is the expectation within the workplace, on the part of both employees and employers, about who is going to take parental leave. The burden is so much on the mother at the moment that the new legislation, which I strongly support, could make a reality of encouraging fathers to take parental leave and be much more involved in the early days and weeks of looking after newborn babies and children in their first year.

The second culture change that we are looking for is a different way for couples to decide how they are going to juggle bringing up their children and their work responsibilities—something that many people struggle with. We all know that it is not easy. What the Government are proposing is very helpful, but I want to see something that is going to provide that additional incentive to fathers to take this up. I really like the phrase “use it or lose it” because it says clearly what we are trying to do here.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, went through the evidence comprehensively, so I certainly do not intend to repeat that. When I reviewed the evidence, I was particularly struck by the impact that this had had in the nordic countries. It really seemed to be the thing that made the difference and started to tip the balance to get that culture change. If we really are trying to encourage fathers to take up leave—I think all of us here want to do that, judging by what has been said so far today—we need to take some heed of the international evidence of what works.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly, having not participated in this Bill because of other commitments, in support of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. As others have said, we are pressing here for a change of culture. We are looking for fathers to play a much more active role in the upbringing of their children. Clearly, as my noble friend Lady Lister has rightly said, if fathers are involved right at the beginning, they bond with the baby and will then be much more involved throughout the child’s early life. This has to be good. In my view, we are seeing that change of culture: more and more fathers are bonding with children in the early stages and being much more involved throughout the child’s life.

I want to put on record the link between this and what I regard as the Government’s very helpful inclusion in this Bill of a recognition of the equal importance of both parents to a child if the tragedy of divorce strikes. If you involve fathers very closely at the beginning of a child’s life, they bond, they become involved and they care for that child, but they are cut out after a divorce—which happens, as we know, all too often in this country year after year. This is actually very cruel. Maybe it was okay in the old days for men to remain outside the family, unattached, but if we are all working towards greater equality of mothers and fathers in terms of their involvement in the family—and therefore greater equality for women in the workplace—we have to follow through, as I believe the Government are trying to do, to the post-divorce situation, should that tragedy arrive. Having been through it myself, I know exactly how that feels for everybody. I strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, but it is very important to see these two parts of the Bill joined up.

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[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I have been reminded by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, that we have had this discussion in the past. It struck everyone at the time how completely unfair this whole system was. Now that the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, has spelt out so many comparisons, it is, frankly, almost embarrassing to think about the disadvantage that kinship carers suffer when they take on this responsibility and often—most likely, I would say—produce much better results for those children, giving them a likely prospect of a far more fulfilled life than if they had gone into different forms of care.

In supporting what has been said, I would say to the Minister that I would love to hear that this area was going to be looked at hard and, as far as possible, a range of comparable systems would be considered for kinship carers, those coming into care and those who are to be adopted. If he could give us that assurance, or indeed tell us that a lot of this is already in process, that would be very helpful in settling our minds until Report, if nothing else.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

My Lords, I support the amendment. It has been set out so comprehensively and compellingly that I do not need to add very much. The case seems to be overwhelming that when people who are providing kinship care—often, as has been said, in the most desperate circumstances—agree to step in, often at great personal cost to themselves, it is only right that the state should recognise the hugely valuable contribution they are making.

These children are often in states of great distress and trauma, and for a member of the family to be able to step in and provide some degree of stability is really important. We all know the cost to the public purse of children in care who go, for example, into residential homes—it is huge. The savings that are made by a member of the family stepping forward in this way are considerable. We also know about the very poor outcomes for too many children in care when they emerge at the other end of the system. Kinship carers can make a huge contribution and it is absolutely right that society should acknowledge that. One very important way it could do so would be by extending these statutory employment rights to kinship carers.

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[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

My Lords, I rise briefly to lend my support to this amendment. The hour is late and I will be brief. I am one of that band of noble Lords who were involved at all stages of the Care Bill and I think we have made great strides in joining up the Care Bill and the Children and Families Bill. I salute Ministers for having done that. I particularly pay tribute to Ministers for what they have done on young carers. We now have a set of rights for young carers which is so much stronger than before and that is a real landmark. Through the Care Bill, we have got improved rights for adult carers to assessment and support, and I applaud the Government for doing that. We have got much improved rights for young carers through the Children and Families Bill, linking in nicely with the Care Bill, and again I applaud the Government for doing that. We just have this one group left: the parent carers, who generally care for disabled children. If we could just get that missing bit of the jigsaw all sorted out so that all carers had the same set of rights to assessment and support, I think that it would be a tremendous step forward for carers in this country. I am encouraged to hear that meetings are still taking place and I hope that the Minister may have some encouraging news for us that the missing bit of the jigsaw is going to be put into place. We can all then be absolutely proud of what these two Bills together have done for carers.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, very briefly, it was only about an hour ago that we had exactly the same situation having to be sorted out for kinship carers. For goodness’ sake, parent carers are about as kinship as you can get, and if they cannot be rolled into the same set up of proper analysis and proper attention to their needs, then what can happen? I hope the Minister is going to move this thing on as quickly as possible.