Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)
My Lords, I, too, support these amendments, and my name is attached to Amendment 264. I should declare that I have a history as regards smoking as I used to be a chain smoker but gave it up when I was six. About 15 years ago in your Lordships’ House I introduced an amendment to ban smoking in public places. I put it on the back of a criminal justice Bill, which is a convenient way of moving things. I was amazed that the House was full right up to midnight when my amendment was discussed. I fondly imagined that everyone had come to listen to my wisdom, but little did I know that the House had filled with smoking barons waiting to pounce. However, I got my own back on them because at the end of the debate I thanked everyone for their contributions and, instead of saying, “I beg leave to withdraw my amendment”, for some reason or other I said, “Amendment not moved”. They all looked very puzzled because we had just spent hours discussing it. However, the noble Baroness on the Woolsack quickly said, “Amendment not moved”, passed on and they lost the opportunity to vote. They were furious and I was very pleased. As a professor of surgery, of course, I fully back any move to reduce the amount of smoking and I am convinced that these amendments would do that.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, this has been an instructive debate and let me say immediately that I have listened carefully to all the contributions, both today and on Monday. Perhaps I may start by addressing Amendment 263. I should say at the outset that I have enormous sympathy with the aim of this amendment, which is to protect children’s health from the harm that can be caused by second-hand smoke, and I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, along with my noble friend Lady Tyler for bringing this important issue to our attention.
We all agree that we do not want to see children exposed to second-hand smoke anywhere. The evidence of the harm caused by second-hand smoke is clear, but many children continue to be exposed to it, both in the family car and in the home. The question posed by this debate is whether legislation is the most proportionate and viable means of addressing the problem. We need to consider that question carefully and I must say that, while supporting the spirit of the amendment—which I certainly do—the Government are not convinced that creating new criminal offences is the right approach.
Of course, in some people’s minds there are civil liberties considerations, which might include what is often perceived as state intrusion into people’s private space. That is a complex area worthy of a debate on its own, but of course I acknowledge that any arguments on that score need to be balanced against the need to protect children. Since 2007, evidence shows that smoke-free legislation has been effective in reducing exposure to second-hand smoke in virtually all enclosed work and public spaces, public transport and work vehicles. Compliance with the law is high and we now benefit from clean air at work, in pubs and restaurants, and on public transport. However, it does not automatically follow from that that it is right to extend the scope of legislation to cover private cars.
There are many practical issues to be considered, particularly around effective enforcement, which is not something that we have heard much about during the course of the debate. Smoke-free legislation in England is enforced by local authority environmental health officers. They do not hold powers to stop vehicles or to detain people in vehicles that are already stationary. Consequently, it would be very difficult for them to take effective enforcement action without the assistance of the police. Since this is a public health issue rather than one of road safety, I expect that such an additional duty on top of their many other responsibilities would be a cause for concern for the police. The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health has identified other practical difficulties around enforcement. These include accurately identifying which vehicles are required to be smoke-free. For example, small children may not easily be visible from outside the vehicle. Further difficulties include obtaining evidence of smoking, identifying the driver and passengers, and proving the age of the child.
I hope that the Committee agrees that there would be real practical difficulties in effectively enforcing such an offence. If we cannot credibly enforce the law, then the credibility of the law itself is called into question. That is why the Government firmly believe that, rather than focus on what would be a complicated and resource-intensive enforcement process, we should continue the non-legislative approach that the evidence shows is working; namely, encouraging positive and lasting behaviour change among adults who place children’s health at risk. My noble friend Lord Storey urged us to do this. Our comprehensive tobacco control plan states:
“Rather than extending smokefree legislation, we want people to recognise the risks of secondhand smoke and decide voluntarily to make their homes and family cars smokefree”.
That is why Public Health England, building on last year’s success, ran another hard-hitting marketing campaign in June and July this year. The campaign aimed to encourage smokers to stop and think before smoking in front of children, whether in the home or in the car. It also encouraged smokers to order an NHS smokefree kit with tips on making the home and car entirely smoke-free spaces, together with support to help quit smoking altogether.
This year’s campaign is currently being evaluated, but emerging findings are encouraging. They show that the campaign has been successful in raising awareness and in changing attitudes and behaviour, with almost three-quarters of those surveyed agreeing that smoking out of an open door or window was not enough to protect children from second-hand smoke. Of those surveyed, 37% reported that they had taken action to reduce their children’s exposure to second-hand smoke, compared with 29% in 2012. In addition, 73% agreed that the adverts made them realise that smoking out of an open window was not enough to protect children, and there were nearly 85,000 orders for smokefree kits. That is an increase of 48% on the 2012 campaign.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester rightly suggested that this is a global issue. I agree. We are, however, considered to be a leader in tobacco control internationally. The World Health Organisation has assessed us to be number one in Europe in this area, and through the Framework Convention on Tobacco Control we share this good practice as much as we can.
The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, suggested that the Government ought to introduce an offence of proxy purchasing. I know that shopkeepers and others are interested in making it an offence to buy tobacco for young people under the age of 18. I am sympathetic to that concern, but even were such an offence to be introduced, it would not stop family and friends sharing cigarettes with children. Therefore, we get back to the argument about behaviour change, which I think is more relevant here.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, made an interesting point about this being considered as a road safety issue. I agree that any activity such as smoking—getting out a cigarette, lighting it, disposing of hot ash or stubbing the cigarette out—is likely to distract the driver, particularly if carried out in a moment that is critical for road safety. However, there are a host of things drivers do that have the potential to be equally distracting, be it eating, drinking, adjusting the radio, consulting directions or whatever it may be. First and foremost, it is the driver’s responsibility to drive safely at all times. Section 41D of the Road Traffic Act 1988 already provides a perfectly adequate offence if a driver fails to maintain proper control of a vehicle while driving. While a specific offence has been created for driving while using a hand-held mobile phone, the Government do not believe that there is any need to introduce a new and separate offence of smoking while driving.
I welcome the debate on this important issue and I can assure noble Lords that we shall consider carefully the findings of this year’s marketing campaign and decide what further action may be needed. I can assure the Committee that the Government will continue to work to protect children from second-hand smoke in family cars and in the home. We are not complacent but we remain to be convinced that legislation is the most effective and proportionate way of achieving this.
Baroness Young of Old Scone
My understanding of this is that, because the Government would not come forward with a more general provision, this amendment has been hitched on to the Bill in desperation because it seemed to be a sensible place to try to get it into. The convolutions that the Minister is rightly pointing out would be solved at a stroke if there were to be a ban on differentiated packaging across the board and standardised packaging were introduced for all cigarettes.
Earl Howe
That indeed is my understanding. Noble Lords have taken the opportunity of this Bill to raise the dangers of smoking, particularly of passive smoking for children, and I have no issue with that. I merely point out that there are problems with the amendment as drafted. I am not saying that it would not be possible to draft another amendment which noble Lords might care to consider between now and Report. Being able to enforce these provisions as drafted is also a significant aspect. For example, it may be hard to judge whether a product could reasonably be expected to attract children, as the amendment would require, or to determine what might be aimed at or would attract 18 year-olds but not, let us say, 17 year-olds or 13 year-olds.
I am grateful to noble Lords for raising this important issue and for keeping this debate at the front of our minds. It is a debate that we need to continue. As I have said, the Government have yet to make a decision on this policy, but if we were to bring in such a measure, we would not want it to be circumscribed in the way that is proposed. We would not want to set up a situation in which both branded and standardised packs could be sold legally depending on where they were sold and what other products were sold alongside them. I therefore urge noble Lords not to press their amendments and respectfully suggest that they consider other avenues for bringing this matter before the House on Report.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I always admire the noble Earl’s eloquence when defending the indefensible and he has done that par excellence today, but is not the reality that this is an opportunity for the Committee and the House to express a view in principle on the issue? It would then be up to the Government. As the noble Earl knows, when that happens, the Government simply come back with an amendment at Third Reading to deal with the technical issues. Surely the issue here is whether the House goes forward to a vote in principle, which I hope it might be able to do.
Earl Howe
Well, my Lords, if I could repay the compliment to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, he has very eloquently presented the case for the Government to go away and think further about this, which indeed we will do. I come back to what I said at the beginning of this debate: the message from this Committee has been delivered loudly and clearly. I am grateful to noble Lords for that. I say again that the Government’s mind is not closed on this issue.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
As one of those who are not quite so eloquent but are equally committed to the cause, I think that the Government would be in a far better position if we had some timescale. We now know when Report stage is likely. I am much attracted to what the Minister said. I would much prefer that we had a universal position that protected adults as well as children because of, as he said, the influence that adults have on children. Many more noble Lords might, like me, be influenced if they knew that something was likely to happen. The anxiety is that, unless we press this, nothing will happen.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, it falls to me to respond. I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I am grateful that nobody has spoken against the amendment that would prevent people smoking in cars when children were there. The evidence is overwhelming. This must fall squarely within this Bill; it is about protecting children from harm. If I may draw on the analogy of a tin box used by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that would be classified without doubt as child abuse. It would fall to the police to prosecute in such a case—indeed, with other traffic offences, it falls to the police.
I was intrigued to hear that the Minister places so much faith in the public education campaign and cites cost of enforcement as a problem. How much has the public education campaign cost in total, including its evaluation, and what are the cost estimates for the police?
In Wales there has been a public education campaign since 2012 to try to stop people smoking in cars when children are present, and it is currently being evaluated. I live there and I can tell noble Lords that it is not working. In supermarket car parks you see children being offloaded into the back of the car, the shopping offloaded into the boot and a cigarette offloaded out of a packet into the driver’s mouth before they set off. I would dearly love to tap on the car windows of those people and say, “You can’t do that” because they are endangering the children in the vehicle. I also refute the notion that it would be very difficult to identify who is smoking when there are children in the car. The Government are committed to children’s health and well-being and have shown that commitment in many different ways—for example, through sporting initiatives—yet they allow a practice to continue which permanently damages children’s lungs and physical development and leads to premature death in some cases. Indeed, the instances involving asthma sufferers cannot be ignored.
I remind the Minister that the legislation on smoking in public places has brought about huge behavioural change and been extremely successful. I have been repeatedly thanked for that legislation by smokers and non-smokers, as must have happened to other noble Lords who campaigned prior to that legislation going through. That legislation has made it easier for them to attempt to stop smoking or to cut down. I can honestly say that nobody has been angry with me about the legislation having gone through, although some anger was shown when it was being discussed.
I was intrigued by the Minister’s comment about the complexity of Amendment 264 vis-à-vis producing standardised packaging. He may not wish to comment on the detail of it, although I am happy to give way if he does. However, I hope that he will meet me and other Peers who are interested in this issue to explain what problems may arise in this area. I am grateful to him for his critique of the amendment and see exactly what he means. We certainly need to take it away, redraft it and bring it back on Report. We do not want to make it harder for retailers who sell other things to children, such as comics, by differentiating and having some kind of two-tier system.
As regards the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, in relation to illicit products, Margaret Hodge, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, found that the illicit market reduced from 20% to 9% between 2000 and 2012-13. The 9% figure applied also to 2010-11, although it dipped to 7% in one year. Margaret Hodge commented that the tobacco manufacturers are complicit in this illicit trade by,
“supplying more of their products to European countries than the legitimate market in those countries could possibly require. The tobacco then finds its way back into the UK market without tax being paid. The supply of some brands of hand-rolling tobacco to some countries in 2011 exceeded legitimate demand by 240%”.
I understand that oversupply to Ukraine has been identified, which fuels a £2 billion black market that has reached across the EU, and that in 2011 Japan Tobacco International was investigated and is now under official investigation by the European anti-fraud office. So I am afraid that it is not a nice story. I am not certain that the argument about revenue saved can possibly be stacked up against the cost of lives shortened, health damaged, children left orphaned and all the other things that we know go on. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment but we will be coming back to it at the next stage of the Bill.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I wish to support the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, in this amendment. The Minister is right in saying that the framework is there in the present legislation or, at least, it should be there. The difficulty is that, because the focus among those who make assessments is split between adults and children and we do not have holistic family assessments, often the parents are lost. A family whom I met recently had just, after many years, been given a period of respite care, but the parent carers had not realised that that would make the difference in their being able to continue to care for their son, an extremely difficult young man. A series of workers had never suggested to them that their needs might be met in order to meet the needs of their child. That is the important message that front-line workers need to understand. This amendment would help them to understand that, unless you meet the needs of parents, you do not meet the needs of children.
I, too, had this query when I heard that it had been commented that to assess parents would undermine the rights of children. Assessing parents enhances the rights of children. Many of us who have worked in this field and continue to work with and meet families see it regularly. We also see when people fail to notice that parent carers are beginning to fail, simply because of their exhaustion and the fact that they have had no relief and no assessment for any kind of services, sometimes quite small ones that would make all the difference to their being able to continue.
I support this because we should have a family approach whereby children with disabilities will be maintained in their own homes rather than having to go into caring facilities because their parents are unable to look after them. I am losing my power of speech, like most of us at this time of night, so I leave it there. My only other point is that the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, made a passionate speech about integration, which I think we all feel should happen.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to debate the important issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. I recognise the tremendous job that parent carers of disabled children do and the challenges that it can bring. It is right that children’s legislation is the place to address this. I am pleased that the Minister for Children and Families will be meeting Paul Burstow to discuss this further.
We are confident that there is a strong framework of support in place to support parent carers of disabled children. Parent carers’ needs can be assessed as part of assessing the needs of children in need under the Children Act 1989. Local authorities can provide services to the family members of a child in need with a view to safeguarding or promoting the child’s welfare.
As parents, and as adults caring for children, parent carers are in a very different position from adults caring for adults or young carers. We should be wary of simply replicating arrangements that are in place for those other carers without understanding the interrelationship with other legislation and the potential for unintended consequences. Unlike for young carers, where we have responded to specific concerns and substantial evidence, there is a lack of evidence for the need to change the type of support or the way in which it is provided for parent carers of disabled children. That is not to say that everything is perfect, nor to underplay the challenges that parents of disabled children face, nor to claim that all parent carers receive the support that they need. However, it is not clear that specific changes to legislation are the answer.