Procedure of the House (Proposal 5)

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I was a Minister in your Lordships' House for eight years, serving in both the Foreign Office and Ministry of Defence. I know from my experience as a Lords Minister that you have to listen very carefully to what your Secretary of State is saying in another place, because Statements very often get changed from the last time you saw them in your department. It is very difficult for the usual channels to be able to anticipate that. Since we are talking of courtesy in this House, I think that it is courteous for this House to have the same opportunity as another place to listen to a full Statement. If we are talking about the importance of clarity for members of the public, it seems to me quite extraordinary to suggest that, on the one hand, we should have questions in full but that, on the other, that we do not need to have Statements in full. For members of public watching on their televisions, listening on the radio and sitting in the Public Gallery not to have heard a Statement in this House seems to lack the clarity that we have been so keen on elsewhere. For those three reasons, I think that this is a misguided proposal to put before your Lordships.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, the proposal refers to exceptional circumstances and I should like to remind the House of one. I remember a public expenditure Statement lasting an hour and a quarter being made in the House of Commons and then being repeated in full in this House on the following day, when everybody had had the opportunity not only to read the Statement but to read everything about it in the newspapers. I suggest that that is the sort of circumstance in which the time of the House should not be taken in repeating a whole Statement.

European Council

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, on my noble friend’s first question, of course we are delighted that we are seeing a semblance of peace in Libya, and long may that continue; and of course we will do everything we can to support the growth of that stability and, indeed, in the longer term, of democracy. I have answered questions before on the Westminster Foundation, whose aims and objectives we fully support. We wish to see that body continue to function and to work not just in Libya but in many other countries as well. As far as the EU and the French President are concerned, I am not sure whether “spat” is the right word, but we think that we are in a position to explain to some of our European colleagues our viewpoint on what is happening in the eurozone and to underline the seriousness of it. In fact, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have said that it is not in our interests for the euro to founder; it is very much in our interests for it to succeed. I do not think that we are being sidelined. We are doing everything we can to explain and to get our colleagues to understand that we are playing a full part and—in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay—a positive part in the development of the EU.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I have just returned from the World Economic Forum in Jordan, where most of the Governments of the Arab League were represented. It is worth noting that they were all relieved and pleased that the Gaddafi era is over, as I am sure we all are. However, many of my interlocutors expressed concern—some publicly, some privately—about the way in which Gaddafi met his end. Their feeling was that if the changes in the Middle East are to become embedded, they have to be rooted in the rule of law. The rule of law would have meant that Gaddafi went on trial in an open trial which everybody could see, and was then subject to the sentence of a properly constituted court. Will the noble Lord the Leader of the House assure us that this is also the Government’s position and that extrajudicial killing—in the heat of the moment people in many parts of the world may at times have sympathy with it—is wrong in principle and that standing up for the rule of law is important, whoever is the victim?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is always good to hear from the noble Baroness first hand about her activities in Jordan and her discussing this with other Arab countries. I agree with the point that underlines her remarks. The UK was a strong supporter of the ICC and led the drive to refer the situation in Libya to the ICC in UNSCR 1970. We have always maintained that the ideal solution involved Gaddafi being arrested and standing trial in The Hague and getting to the truth of the many events that occurred over the course of the past 40 years. Ultimately, the fate of Gaddafi was in the hands of the Libyans. The process should have been rooted in the rule of law and we will certainly make sure that the NTC understands that. It is now for it to decide how it plans to investigate the events that led to Gaddafi’s death.

Libya

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join my noble friend in commending all those whom he mentioned for their professionalism and for the service that they have provided.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I apologise for not having been in my place at the start of the Statement. I also declare an interest as a former member of an international panel of advisers to the development board of Libya, which was chaired by Dr Jibril, who was one of the first to defect.

A moment or two ago, the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, raised a point about the rule of law. The Law Society was already engaged in talks with the Libyan Government, at their request, about the rule of law and establishing various norms of judicial proceedings. The British Council was also fully engaged on a number of issues, including the development of women. The Welsh universities were engaged with the Libyans—I am talking about those on the side of people such as Dr Jibril who were trying to develop such mechanisms. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy was engaged. John Moores University was engaged on health and the Crown Agents on tackling corruption. The Leader of the House said that re-engagement was not necessarily appropriate yet because of the security situation, but I understand from the Permanent Secretary at the Foreign Office that the Foreign Office is engaging in reconnection on all those issues in which people like me were heavily involved before Colonel Gaddafi lost his head. The concern now is that we should have proper re-engagement on all those levels at which a start was being made on getting to the guts of developing a new society. Are the British Government encouraging that? Will there be re-engagement of the European Union on the association agreement negotiations which were not only under way but going quite well and involved discussions on human rights? There was a lot going on, and there is a lot to pick up again. We were absolutely engaged on those issues. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to reassure us that we will get back in there on those issues.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Baroness brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to her questions. She has demonstrated how much good work has already been done, and there is absolutely no reason why it should not continue, though there is an immediate security problem to overcome.

There is no reason that I can think of why proper re-engagement on all these areas should not continue with the NTC and, ultimately, under a new Government over the course of time. That is very much what the British Government will seek to support.

I cannot comment on the EU but, again, I cannot see a good reason why those agreements should not be made with a new Government when they are established.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there is no magic about the figure of 300, any more than there was magic about the 600 figure for the House of Commons. Many argue that the existing House is far too big, but nobody has a view as to what the exact figure should be. There are many examples around the world of second Chambers being smaller—and sometimes substantially smaller—than the primary Chamber. I think that we ought to be able to manage with 300 full- time Members if they were elected.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, the Statement says very clearly that people have a right to choose their representatives. If this House is to become a House of representatives, it will have to have the real powers to represent. The Leader of the House has spoken about the mandate of the people. In answer to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, he said, “Yes indeed, the powers of the House would have to change if there were to be an elected House, or an 80 per cent elected House”. Can he explain how his commitment on that sits alongside paragraph 7 of the White Paper, which states:

“The Government believes that the change in composition of the second chamber ought not to change the status of that chamber as a House of Parliament or the existing constitutional relationship between the two Houses of Parliament”?

Surely those things cannot be true. This House cannot have more powers to do the job as a House of representatives and the relationship between the two Houses remain the same. The two are completely inconsistent, and I would be grateful if the noble Lord would explain it.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, paragraph 7 is in the context of the powers of the House not changing. I made that plain in the original Statement, and I make it plain again. However, the relationship between the two Houses would evolve over time. I see no difficulty in that. It has already evolved over the last 20 years and I think it would continue. The only basis for having an elected House would be to give this House greater authority to use its powers more assertively and effectively.

Parliament: Elected House of Lords

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 16th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a good point. Different Members of either House will feel differently about the role of primacy of the House of Commons depending on what proportion of this House were to be elected. I noted too, as he did, that the shadow Leader of the House of Commons, Mr Hilary Benn, said that the Labour Party was now entirely in favour of a 100 per cent elected House.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, might I press the Leader of the House a little further on the point raised by my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition? The noble Lord said in relation to the Cunningham committee report that the issues round the conventions “might” be revisited. I remind him that the Cunningham committee report was accepted by both Houses unanimously and was unequivocal in saying that the conventions must be revisited.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I would have to refresh my mind on the conclusions of the Cunningham committee, but I do not think that it was an absolute requirement that the conventions must be revisited. The committee stated that if this House were to be substantially reformed, that could have an effect on the conventions, which should be re-examined at that stage. I see no difficulty in that.

Osama bin Laden

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

Given that there was not much time to plan these events, I entirely agree with what my noble friend says about the burial of bin Laden’s body. It was done, I understand, fully in accordance with the teachings of Islam, and it was done quickly and effectively. As my noble friend pointed out, there is the added advantage that there is no shrine to visit for those who regard bin Laden as a leader.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, can the Leader of the House add to the Statement in relation to Syria? The Statement did not, I think, refer to Syria, where over the weekend there have been some very alarming reports not only about the targeting of unarmed civilians on the streets of its towns but also, just as alarming, about the arrest of young men between the ages of 15 and 40 who seem to have been taken away and put in places without their families being given any information about what has happened to them.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I welcome the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean. She is right to mention Syria, where there is an immensely serious and developing situation. We call for an immediate end to attacks against civilians by the Syrian security forces. The Syrian authorities and their forces should comply with their obligations under international law, international humanitarian law and human rights law, including protecting civilians and meeting their basic needs. We ask President Assad to order his authorities to show restraint and to respond to the legitimate demands of his people with immediate and genuine reform, not with brutal repression. We really do want to see acts of genuine reform and not repression. We are keeping a very close eye on developments in what is clearly a fast-moving picture. There is every opportunity, and time, for President Assad to change the direction of his forces and try to seek an opportunity for genuine reform in Syria, which is an extremely important country.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 15th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I wonder if I could take a little heat out of what has just been said. Will the noble Lord address the point raised by my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton and give his own reasoned argument why other constituencies should not be allowed to make the argument that would take them to the position of the Western Isles and Orkney and Shetland? I am not arguing about the two exclusions; I am asking why nobody else has the privilege of making that argument, as we have heard that the Isle of Wight would wish to make it. What is the reasoned argument against that form of hybridity?

House of Lords: Allowances

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shaw of Northstead]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the proposals that have been put forward, but I have one query. Will some discretion be allowed to play a part in fixing entitlement to travel expenses? On the face of it, when we come back in the autumn, I shall be able to claim mileage costs to and from Wakefield station, as well as car parking as well—a weekly Bill of £56. However, I could catch a taxi there and back for £32, which is a difference of £24 or, annually—if I work it out from usual attendance—of £700. Is this discretion open to the authorities that pass my expenses or not?

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I, too, was a member of the ad hoc committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham. It is worth remembering that we are talking, simultaneously at times, about four different systems: the current system; the system that the SSRB put forward; the system recommended by the ad hoc committee; and the system in today’s proposals. I should like to compare the ad hoc committee’s proposals with today’s proposals, as I think that we are missing some important points.

My noble friend Lord Tomlinson was exercised by the fact that the recommendation made by the ad hoc committee at paragraph 5.61 of its report moved outside the remit that the House gave us. It is important to recognise that the report makes that point fully and coherently at paragraph 5.56. The report goes on to recognise, as my noble friend Lord Tomlinson said, that since the general election things have changed. That is spelt out in paragraphs 5.58 and 5.59, which consider IPSA and possible changes to your Lordships’ House. There was no sleight of hand; this was clearly spelt out in the report. In paragraph 5.61, the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, recommended, with the support of most of the group, that,

“consideration might also be given to the case for putting in place a simplified allowance”.

The position is straightforward; I do not think that anything underhand went on.

The simplified allowance that we are looking at is a £300 a day flat-rate allowance. I remind your Lordships that the ad hoc committee report recommended that we accept the SSRB’s £200 flat rate. It also recommended, as an alternative—the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, referred to this a moment ago—a £100 flat-rate, unreceipted allowance, or £300 for those living outside London. Concern has been expressed about the House not being so diverse because of the difficulties of travel on that basis, but that applies equally to the alternative proposed by the SSRB. It could be argued that there was another alternative—the £140 receipted alternative. Indeed, we recognised that that was the SSRB’s alternative. However, that £140 receipted alternative was attenuated for every day that an individual did not attend the House, so that the individual not only lost for that day but faced an additional deduction from what they would have received. In essence, I do not think that many people would have received anything like £140, because everybody has to be away from the House at some point. I really do not see that the £300 flat rate is very different from what the ad hoc committee put forward, which was either to take the SSRB proposal with its deductions or to have the flat rate that we proposed. I do not think that that is an arguable point. It is written in our report, which I am sure all of your Lordships have read assiduously.

The question then is whether this is fair in the light of what London-based Members would receive. It may be argued that London-based Members will get more, but I have always found the argument that some people’s good fortune must mean other people’s misfortune difficult to agree with. The fact is that I am one of those who are not London-based Members and therefore, theoretically, I lose under this. I do not believe that I am losing any more than I would have lost under the report, but I accept that London-based Members will be receiving more.

That then raises the question of equity. Equity can be looked at in a huge variety of ways—equity according to need or the equity of getting the same rate for the job that you do. Both are arguable cases. The fact is that the proposals before us are the same rate for the job that you do.

On a personal level, one of the reasons why I want these proposals to go through is that I have seen many of my colleagues torn apart on Thursdays and Fridays by the ghastly telephone call that goes, “Hallo, it’s the Sunday Times here”. People know exactly what is coming—intrusive questions of a deplorable nature, people outside their house and their neighbours’ houses, questions down at their local pub. To me, this system is worth it because it means peace of mind for me and my colleagues. That is of enormous value to all of us.

Then there is the public interest argument. The fact is that this is a transparent system. What people receive is absolutely in line with their attendance in this House. There is no hidden agenda, there is nothing else for someone to look for and there are no constant questions about who you are living with and how that works. It is completely transparent. The public can have confidence in what is happening. The rate for the job is £300 a day—end of story. I hope that it will be our end of story too.

[Lord Tebbit]

My Lords, I have a good deal of sympathy for the amendment put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris. My main point, however, is about the allowances as they affect staff who Members may employ.

Let me be clear. I do not think that this ought to be a full-time House. We should not be full-time politicians. Over the years since I have been in this House, I have tended to attend on 60 or 70 days a year. At times I think I have made some difference in what I have done while I have been here, for good or ill—opinions may differ about that. I do not think that we want to encourage people simply to come here every day. Frankly, there are too many of us now anyway; we would overfill the place.

As I look back, I find that for several years—because I take that view and I attend for only about half the days that the House is sitting; that is, when there are things that I think are important for which I should be here or things that interest me—the amounts that I have drawn in allowances have been less in total than I have paid my part-time secretary. It is a privilege to be here, and I have been prepared to accept that. What worries me now, however, is the loss of the provision to be able to claim secretarial allowance—or office allowance, whatever you call it—during the time when the House is in recess. I cannot tell my secretary that she is not going to get paid because the House is not sitting. I am not prepared to do that; it would not be right. There is a case to be made for looking again at how the new system will affect those of us who intend to attend only 60 or 70 days a year but whose activities in the House and as politicians generate enough work to cause us to retain a secretary to help. Whatever happens, and broadly speaking I support the proposals that my noble friend has put forward, we need to look again at that aspect.

Financial Provision for Members

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate’s point about pay outside sitting days has been raised many times. This scheme will pay £300 per sitting day only, and the judgment that I and others who have looked at this matter have taken is that that amount should keep Peers going when we are not sitting. It is entirely fair enough to say that the totals do not add up to as much as full-time Peers can currently claim, but, as I said in my Statement, in today’s economic climate it is right for us who gain the most to say that we are happy to take a reduction.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that a number of the questions that are being raised are dealt with in the report by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham. We have spent a great deal of time discussing taxation. The question of additional office costs is also dealt with in the report, as are the important questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, about long periods of illness. The noble Baroness’s point was not about the powers of the Clerk of the Parliaments to give additional help to noble Lords who have, for example, mobility difficulties, it was more about what happens during extended periods of illness and some of the representations that have been made in relation to them. We are starting to move into a more detailed debate.

I support, as the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, does, the thrust of the additional element brought into this report—the alternative suggestion. Of course my noble friend Lord Tomlinson is right to say that this was not included in the principles and architecture of the SSRB report. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, explicitly states in his report that he is moving outside the architecture and principles described in paragraphs 5.56 and 5.57. That notwithstanding, it is possible to move outside it because circumstances have changed. Clarity, transparency and simplicity are what we should aim for.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has been extremely helpful. As a leading member of my noble friend Lord Wakeham’s group, she has also demonstrated that there is an enormous amount of detail in my noble friend’s report. I hope that, when read in conjunction with my Statement today and with the report of the SSRB, it will make everything considerably clearer.

I accept what the noble Baroness said: perhaps I did not answer the Convenor of the Cross Benches sufficiently well when she asked about periods of illness, particularly for Members of the House who are severely disabled. I have never opposed any attempt to find a regime for a very few special cases. We are one of the few legislative assemblies to have allowed severely disabled people to play their part. I am sure that if the noble Baroness were to invite the House Committee to re-examine these issues, she would receive a positive response.

G8 and G20 Summits

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my right honourable friend found the meetings at the G8 and the G20 useful. They were particularly useful because they were different, and because, as a new Prime Minister, he was able to meet different political leaders at different stages. It is impossible for me to say whether these structures will be maintained in the long term. As the noble Lord recognised, they will not be meeting together in the future.

On the Doha round, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said that he finds the Statement convincing but the communiqué rather less so. Frankly, we were rather disappointed by the wording in the communiqué. It is a key strategic plank of this Government to move issues forward on the whole question of the Doha trade round and we will be developing a strategy so that we turn that leadership into action by convincing different countries that it is in their material interest to see an increase in global trade. I am sure the whole House agrees with that but it will need our combined collective will, good judgment and the kind of experience that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, possesses in order to convince other countries of that necessity.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, first, can the noble Lord shed a little more light on the Prime Minister’s thinking on withdrawing our troops from Afghanistan by 2015? It was always the view in the past, as I understood it, that giving a date for withdrawal would be like signalling to the Taliban and al-Qaeda how long they would have to hold out before they would not have any opposition on the ground. My concern is that many people will think that this gives the Taliban and al-Qaeda an opportunity to scale down what they are doing, gather their resources and armaments, bring in fresh recruits and simply re-emerge when the foreign troops have departed. I wonder if the noble Lord can help me on that.

Secondly, the Statement says that the biggest stimulus that we can give the world economy today is the expansion of trade. Can the noble Lord tell us when the Government are planning to appoint a Minister dedicated to trade promotion? I know that, among his many other duties, Mr Mark Prisk has been appointed pro tem to look at trade—but the fact is that he has many other duties. Previously, the noble Lord, Lord Digby Jones, my noble friend Lord Mervyn Davies, and indeed I myself were dedicated to trade promotion and expansion. When will the Government be able to match what they are encouraging the world to do by doing a little better at home?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, on the point about Afghanistan, I agree that the view was taken in the past that making too rigid a timetable and setting the end date too soon simply gives a target for everyone to aim at. That is not true in this case because we are in a very different situation. We have been in Afghanistan for about nine years now and we can see that this current year is extremely important in creating the right grounds for long-term peace and rebuilding civil society. In this case, I do not think that we will run into the danger of giving the Taliban a target, and after all, five years is a long time to have to hang around waiting for British troops to leave. Moreover, that would not achieve the right conditions on the ground for rebuilding civil society in Afghanistan, which is important. So while I accept the point made by the noble Baroness, it is my wish, as I know it is hers, that those conditions will not apply.

On the question of the Minister for Trade, I could not agree more with the noble Baroness that such a Minister is important and that—by her own example and that of others in this House who have held the role—it is a key role for the Government and for focusing our overseas export effort. I am delighted to say that in the past 24 hours Mr Mark Prisk has been made the Minister of Trade. I know that, aided and helped in every way by my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford, they will make a valuable team. Moreover, my noble friend will be answering for him in this House.