Libya

Lord Strathclyde Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, it may be convenient to now repeat a Statement made in another place by the Prime Minister on the situation in Libya. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on Libya.

When we met here on that Friday in March, Gaddafi's tanks bore down on Benghazi. His air force had already begun strikes against his people there, and his army had smashed through Zawiyah with grave loss of life.

Gaddafi had vowed to hunt down his own people like rats, using the full might of his armed forces, backed up by mercenaries. I did not think that Britain could stand by as Gaddafi slaughtered his people. Nor could we allow a failed pariah state festering on Europe's southern border, with the potential to threaten our own security.

The Libyan Opposition and the Arab League both called for NATO to protect the civilian population, so together with the US and France, we secured agreement for UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973. With this clear legal mandate, this House voted by a majority of 544 in favour of military action. Today the Libyan people have taken their country back.

I am grateful for the support that all sides of this House have given throughout the past six months and I am sure that the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the incredible dedication and professionalism of our pilots, sailors and ground crew and everyone in our Armed Forces involved in this mission. But we should also pay tribute to the bravery and resilience of the Libyan people themselves. This has been their revolution and none of it would have happened without them.

Ordinary Libyans from all walks of life came together and rose up against Gaddafi, from the villages of the Nafusa mountains to the tower blocks of Misurata, the alleyways of Zawiyah and the streets of Benghazi, the Libyan people fought with incredible courage. Many paid with their lives. Others have been seriously injured and the struggle is not over. They still face forces loyal to a dictator who last week threatened to turn Libya “into a hell”.

The long work of building a new Libya is just beginning. But what is clear is that the future of Libya belongs to its people. The task of the international community now is to support them as they build that future. That means helping to finish the job, ensuring security, addressing the immediate humanitarian needs and supporting the longer-term process of reconstruction and political transition.

Let me address each in turn. First, finishing the job. Britain has been at the forefront of the military operation to protect the Libyan people. Our aircraft have made 2,400 sorties across Libya carrying out one fifth of all NATO airstrikes, against some 900 targets in Gaddafi's war machine. Our warships have supported this effort, helping enforce the UN arms embargo, and bringing aid to those in need.

At its peak, some 2,300 British service men and women were deployed on Operation ELLAMY, with 36 aircraft including 16 Tornados, six Typhoons, five attack helicopters, tankers and specialist surveillance aircraft and helicopters. Those were supported over the course of the operation by eight warships and a hunter-killer submarine. But the job is not over. As we stand, the Free Libya Forces have liberated Tripoli and control Libya's key population centres, but pro-Gaddafi forces still pose a threat and in particular control the towns of Bani Walid, Sirte, and Sebha in the south.

The National Transitional Council has been working to negotiate a peaceful outcome, but its leaders have explicitly requested that NATO continues its operations to protect civilians until that is achieved. Over the weekend, RAF Tornados struck eight military command and control installations south-west of Waddan and nine weapons and ammunition stores near Sirte.

For as long as Gaddafi remains at large, the safety and security of the Libyan people remains under threat. So let me be clear. We will not let up until the job is done. First, Britain and its NATO allies will continue to implement UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973 for as long as we are needed to protect civilian life. Those thinking that NATO will somehow pull out or pull back must think again. We are ready to extend the NATO mandate for as long as is necessary.

Secondly, we will support the Libyan people in bringing Gaddafi to justice. This is a man whose crimes are becoming ever more apparent every day and who is wanted by the International Criminal Court. There must be no bolt-hole; no pampered hiding place from justice. He must face the consequences of his actions, under international and Libyan law.

Turning to security, the early signs have been encouraging. There has been some disorder, but it has been focused on symbols of the former regime. The National Transitional Council is moving to stand down fighters from outside Tripoli. The police are returning to the streets, and the council leaders have been clear and consistent in cautioning against disorder and against reprisals.

Britain and its international partners are helping too, working closely with the National Transitional Council in securing chemical weapons sites and supporting mine clearance in Misurata, Benghazi and other affected areas.

On the humanitarian situation, Britain has played a leading role from the outset. The priorities are health, water, food and fuel. On health, our humanitarian partners report that hospitals and clinics in Tripoli are now functioning well, with staff returning to work. Britain is providing additional support through the ICRC, including surgical teams and medicines to treat up to 5,000 war-wounded patients.

On water, substantial numbers of people in Tripoli are still without running water. However, UNICEF is procuring 11 million litres of bottled water, and the Libyan authorities are working to repair the water systems. The NTC reports that 100 wells are back online representing 20 per cent of capacity and there is already evidence of improved supplies.

Finally, on fuel, there remain significant shortages, but the situation is improving and the World Food Programme shipment is supporting the National Transitional Council with the procurement of 250,000 tonnes of fuel. The National Transitional Council will continue to lead the response to the humanitarian situation, working with the UN Humanitarian Coordinator and other humanitarian agencies.

Libya is a country of 6.5 million people. It is one of the richest in Africa. Its proven oil reserves are the ninth largest in the world. Libya is fully capable of paying for its own reconstruction. Of course there is a role for foreign advice, help and support but we do not want to see an army of foreign consultants driving around in 4x4s, giving the impression this is something being done to the Libyans, rather than done by them.

What the Libyans need above all is their frozen assets back. A week ago Britain got Security Council agreement to release £1 billion-worth of dinars back to the Central Bank of Libya, and RAF planes have already flown in hundreds of millions of dinars of Libyan banknotes. At the summit in Paris last Thursday, the international community committed to unfreezing $15 billion-worth of Libyan assets. For their part, vitally, we expect the new Libyan authorities to meet their pledge of ensuring transparent and accountable financial systems.

Next, I shall turn to political transition. Some people warned, as Gaddafi himself did, that the Libyan people could not be trusted with freedom—that without Gaddafi there would be chaos. What is emerging now, despite years of repression and the trauma of recent months, is immensely impressive and encouraging. In a far-reaching road map and constitutional declaration, the new authorities have set out a clear vision and process for a new democratic Libya.

This is not being imposed from above; it is being shaped by the Libyan people. At the Paris summit, Chairman Abdul Jalil spoke of his determination to build a society of tolerance and forgiveness, with respect for the rule of law. A national conference will bring together all the tribes, civil society, men and women, from east and west, united to shape the political transition. They are planning for a new constitution and elections within 20 months.

Britain is also in discussions in New York about a new UN Security Council resolution to reflect the new situation. The new Libyan authorities must now be able to represent their country at the United Nations, as they did last week at the Arab League. I also look forward to building a bilateral relationship with the new Libyan authority. We have close relations with the National Transitional Council through our mission in Benghazi. Today the UK’s special representative is deploying to Tripoli to re-establish our full diplomatic presence in that city.

Our relationship with the new Libya must of course deal with a series of problems from the past. On Megrahi, this is obviously a matter for the Scottish Executive, but I have made my position clear: I believe he should never have been sent back to Libya in the first place. On WPC Yvonne Fletcher, I want to see justice for her family. There is an ongoing police investigation, and the House will wish to know that Prime Minister Jibril has assured me of the new Libyan authority’s intention to co-operate fully.

Finally, significant accusations have been reported today that under the last Government relations between the British and Libyan security services became too close, particularly in 2003. It was because of accusations of potential complicity by the British security services in the mistreatment of detainees overseas, including rendition, that I took steps last July to sort this whole problem out. As the House will remember, we took steps to bring to an end the large number of court cases being brought against the Government by former inmates of Guantanamo. We have issued new guidance to security and intelligence service personnel on how to deal with detainees held by other countries.

We have also asked Sir Peter Gibson to examine issues around the detention and treatment of terrorist suspects overseas, and the inquiry has already said it will look at these latest accusations very carefully. My concern throughout has been not only to remove any stain on Britain’s reputation but also to deal with these accusations of malpractice so as to enable the security services to get on with the vital work they do. Because they cannot speak for themselves, let me put on record once again our enormous gratitude for all they do to keep our country safe.

The achievement of the Libyan people gives hope to those across the wider region who want a job, a voice and a stake in how their society is run. On Syria, Britain will continue to lead the argument for a UN resolution to build on the EU’s oil embargo which is now in place. The message to President Assad must be clear: he has lost all legitimacy and can no longer claim to lead Syria; the violence must end, and he must step aside for the good of his country.

It is the Libyan people who have liberated Libya. There was no foreign occupying army. This has been a Libyan-led process, assisted by the international community. Many cynics proclaimed stalemate and asserted that Gaddafi would never be defeated. The Libyan people proved them wrong. It was a unique set of circumstances and not something that we can or wish to repeat all over the world, but I have never accepted the argument that because you cannot do everything, you should not do anything.

Removing Gaddafi from power was a major achievement. Although the work is not yet done, the Libyan people can be proud of what they have achieved and we can be proud of what we have done to help them. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition for an immensely supportive, positive and constructive reply to the Prime Minister’s Statement. I very much agree with what she said at the end of her speech. We should take great pride in the role that we and NATO have played, and that, of course, of the Libyan people themselves who have taken on this appalling dictator and are—if I can put it in such terms—winning, but who are also aware of the tremendous challenges that will unfold in the months and years ahead.

I also very much welcome the noble Baroness’s tribute to the people of Libya and commendation of the Prime Minister. I very much welcome her support. She asked a question about the Gibson inquiry. I think she said that the Gibson inquiry should try to get to the bottom of the accusations that have been made. I entirely agree, which is why I am delighted that the inquiry has said that it will look at these allegations as part of its wider investigation. We must await the outcome of that. The current security situation is fast moving and ever changing but obviously there are still hotspots in Libya that we hope will be dealt with in the days ahead.

As regards NATO, the NATO Secretary-General and the Prime Minister have both made clear that there will be no cessation of military operations until we can be assured that our responsibilities under UNSCR 1973 have been fulfilled. The British Armed Forces will continue to make a significant contribution to that mission. There have been discussions with the United Nations special envoy. The UN special envoy, Ian Martin, is in place. We believe that the UN mission should focus very much on what the Libyans want and not on what we think they want or should have. I gather that that was very clear from listening to them at the Paris conference last week. On oil, of course we should learn the lessons of previous conflicts, as we will undoubtedly and inevitably do from this conflict.

How will the NTC achieve the goals it has set out as it moves towards a more democratic government? We and many others will be with it every step of the way. There are already close contacts between the British Government and the NTC but there is no point in trying to second-guess the process. We have learnt in recent months throughout this process that the NTC always rises to the challenge. It is very effective and there is no reason why it should not continue to do so.

The noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition also asked a question about the building up of civil society and democracy, and what plans there are to help Libya with the British Council, the BBC World Service, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy and so on. She is right that we have these tremendous assets, which have good international reputations. However, it is hard to see what role they can play until the security situation is considerably better. But there will be a medium- and a long-term role for these organisations.

The one slightly negative note mentioned by the noble Baroness was that of the SDSR and whether we should review this in the light of Libya and the Arab spring. I do not blame the noble Baroness for raising it at all. We believe that the case for what we are doing in the SDSR has been proved. The Tornado decision was right. The Typhoon has come of age. Of course, as I have said, as in any conflict of this kind, there will be a review, an examination of what happened, a lessons-learnt exercise, which will be led by Sir Peter Ricketts. This will include many aspects of the campaign of the past few months.

I hope that I have covered the ground that the noble Baroness covered. If I have missed anything out I will of course write to her. In conclusion, there is nothing easy in these kinds of conflicts, particularly between political parties. I very much welcome the non-partisan nature of the noble Baroness’s response and the support that has existed across both Houses on what has been an extremely difficult situation for the people of Libya.

[Earl Attlee]

May I remind the House of the benefit of short questions, so that my noble friend the Leader of the House can answer as many noble Lords as possible?

[Lord Gilbert]

I, too, congratulate our forces on the extreme accuracy of the missions in which they are engaged; the extent to which there have been very few casualties reported among civilians in Libya; and the fact that, as far as I can understand the situation, there have been no casualties on our own side, something for which I am sure we are all very grateful. That is a tribute not only to our pilots but to the weapons they have been using.

I am a little uncomfortable with this constant reference to NATO. In point of fact, it has been certain members of NATO that have been doing what needed to be done in the past few weeks. One or two members of NATO simply have not shown up, and we all know who they are. Can I get an assurance from the Government that they will inquire of the German Government about the actual meaning of certain remarks made by Mr Westerwelle in the very recent past? Do those remarks represent the considered opinion of the German Government? Can we get from the German Government a clear indication of how they will view future NATO activities? I hope that it will not be on the lines according to which they have failed to show up in the past few weeks. Finally, can we have an assurance that even though the UN resolution sets a date for the end of NATO activities, which I believe is some time later this month, that date will not be regarded as a limiting factor?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, in reflecting on how relatively few casualties there have been in Libya, although no doubt we will discover more about that over the course of the next few weeks. But it is a remarkable thing that there have been no British casualties at all, and the pilots and others who have played such an immensely important part should be commended.

The noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, could not resist having a little dig at our NATO partners. I can tell him that the Germans were of course at the Paris conference, where they played their full part. They are full members of NATO and they will no doubt on other occasions wish to play a different part. As a former Minister in the Ministry of Defence, the noble Lord will have his own views on what different members of NATO do and how they involve themselves. Of course, as part of a review, there will be discussions with our NATO partners and allies from time to time. We very much hope that we will not need to have an event like this again, but history demonstrates that we probably will, and we will continue to act in unity.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, Britain must be very proud of its humanitarian action that has brought about this political change in Libya, but I have a concern in relation to recent revelations about the relationship between the security services here and in Libya. Is the Leader of the House satisfied that Sir Peter Gibson has adequate powers to conduct this inquiry, given that it is on a non-statutory basis? Would it not be better to look at whether he should be given adequate powers so that witnesses could be summoned both from this country and from abroad to come to a conclusion? Otherwise, people will lack confidence in the inquiry.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we have every confidence in the Gibson inquiry. The scope of the inquiry has been carefully drawn up to keep it manageable and to ensure that it can meet the Prime Minister’s requirement for it to report within a year. The inquiry will look at the policies of the UK intelligence agencies on working with other countries holding detainees, including allegations relating to torture, improper treatment and rendition. I do not think that the Gibson inquiry itself has asked for extra powers, and we feel happy and are confident that it will be able to achieve its task.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House will accept that, on the face of it, it would appear that the main objectives of Resolutions 1970 and 1973 are very near to being achieved in the sense that organised resistance on behalf of Colonel Gaddafi is now limited to a very few specific areas. Nevertheless, as the Leader of the House put it, it may well be technically correct to say that those resolutions will still have a relevance unless and until Gaddafi is killed, is captured or flees the country. That may take a very long time. In order, therefore, that there should be no dubiety as to the status of international organisations in this context, will he give an assurance that Her Majesty’s Government, sooner rather than later, will seek and support a resolution of the Security Council to enable the sinews of life to be provided immediately for the people of Libya and, indeed, so that the physical reconstruction and matters of governance can be put in place as soon as possible?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think I can put the noble Lord’s mind at rest by saying that the British Government are already discussing within the United Nations resolutions that will do exactly what the noble Lord has suggested. He is also right about UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973. Last week at the Paris conference, we collectively reiterated our commitment to continue to protect civilians in Libya in accordance with those Security Council resolutions, which I think is entirely appropriate.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords—

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[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, the noble Lord has made it clear that there have been very few casualties from NATO’s operations, and that is to be enormously welcomed. Does he accept nevertheless that when it comes to assessing the activities overall, the number of civilians who have died on both sides—whether from rebel forces moving forward or from Gaddafi’s forces trying to defend—must be considerable, and it would be appropriate at some point in time for an estimate to be made of what those figures are?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I would not want the House to think that we were minimising the reporting of the number of casualties on the Libyan side. The wording that both the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, and I have used is that there have been relatively few casualties compared to many other conflicts of this kind. In fact, the UK Government through DfID are now providing urgent humanitarian support into Tripoli, including medical help, food and other basic supplies. A key component of that is to provide surgical teams and medicines for the treatment of up to 5,000 war-wounded patients and to boost local medical staff’s expertise in war surgery techniques.

[Lord Desai]

My Lords, the noble Lord said that the need in Libya was to establish a democracy, and that is quite rightly the challenge. Could he suggest, through the Prime Minister, that the Commonwealth has a lot of experience in a diversity of multi-ethnic and multi-tribal situations? Perhaps the Commonwealth could provide the kind of support that Libya needs right now.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Desai, has come up with a good and sensible suggestion. I understand from my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford that this idea has been raised by others too, and that it is being studied to see what experience we can bring from the Commonwealth in order to help the people and the transitional Government.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, in relation to that last point, there is a very clear emphasis in the Statement that this is now increasingly a matter for the Libyan people to resolve. We must be extremely careful not to suggest that we are going to teach them how to do things, no matter how wise the advice that may come from other quarters. In that respect, if one looks at the unhappy situation now in Iraq, one can see that merely getting rid of a bad dictator is not the end of the problem at all. The challenge that is now faced by the new Libyan Administration, who I think have impressed many of us by their clarity and integrity at the present time, is absolutely enormous. If one considers that one of the core sources of the Arab spring has been the terrible shortage of jobs and unemployment in those territories, the challenge that a new Libyan Government will face—they are facing this in Egypt and in other territories now—is very daunting indeed. Money would at least help. In that connection, what is the situation at the moment with regard to the oil plants and refineries? Having said in the Statement what a rich country Libya potentially is, can the noble Lord say how soon those are likely to be able to come into fruitful use and benefit the Libyan economy?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree very much with what my noble friend said, which is why the support coming from the United Kingdom is support and not a lecture on how to do things. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Desai, was saying in his question, “Here is a model—take it”; it is very much a matter of co-operation and advice when the Libyan people need it. But it is their show and my noble friend was right to raise that.

We of course welcome the plan for the formation of an inclusive interim Government. We have noted that the NTC’s constitutional declaration provides a clear plan for conducting the political transition in the spirit of unifying the Libyan people and reconciling those who have been on both sides in the current conflict. We have given a commitment to support the Libyan-led transition and the rebuilding process to establish a democratic, independent and united Libya. We will do everything we can to help the Libyan people achieve those goals, but it must come from them.

My noble friend was right also to mention money, because, as I pointed out in the Statement, Libya is a rich country. I gather that the damage to the oilfields, gas pipelines and refineries is relatively small, and there is no reason why the oil and gas should not be flowing in the refineries again very soon.

[Lord Borrie]

My Lords, as the Prime Minister’s Statement referred to the possibility of trials by the international court and within Libya itself, can the Leader of the House give us some optimism that the legal profession in Libya—people appropriate to be judges et cetera—is up to mark? I mention that because Hitler, we would all recall, was in power for only 12 years, yet there was huge difficulty in finding people who were sufficiently objective to take on trials in Germany after the war. Gaddafi has been in power in Libya for some 40 years. As far as I know, in recent years there has been nobody with great experience or of sufficiently independent judicial mind to bring to the fore matters of a judicial nature. Can we be in any degree optimistic on this score?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand entirely the point that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, makes, but I rather echo the words of my noble friend Lord King: it is for the Libyan people to determine their own future. Therefore, what happens to Gaddafi and how they do it is ultimately a question for them. I cannot answer the noble Lord’s question on the legal qualifications of the Libyan judiciary, but that must be a decision for the Libyan people. As far as the International Criminal Court is concerned, we want Saif Gaddafi and Abdullah al-Senussi to face justice, but how and when that happens will also be a decision for Libya.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that great credit goes to the Libyan people and the Free Libya forces for their bravery and steadfastness. I also join him in paying tribute to the professionalism and dedication of our pilots, sailors and the ground crew. I hope that he will also acknowledge the exceptionally important work done by the courageous members of our Armed Forces who have been serving in Libya and assisting the Free Libya forces, and the staff of our permanent joint headquarters under the command of Air Marshal Sir Stuart Peach.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join my noble friend in commending all those whom he mentioned for their professionalism and for the service that they have provided.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I apologise for not having been in my place at the start of the Statement. I also declare an interest as a former member of an international panel of advisers to the development board of Libya, which was chaired by Dr Jibril, who was one of the first to defect.

A moment or two ago, the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, raised a point about the rule of law. The Law Society was already engaged in talks with the Libyan Government, at their request, about the rule of law and establishing various norms of judicial proceedings. The British Council was also fully engaged on a number of issues, including the development of women. The Welsh universities were engaged with the Libyans—I am talking about those on the side of people such as Dr Jibril who were trying to develop such mechanisms. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy was engaged. John Moores University was engaged on health and the Crown Agents on tackling corruption. The Leader of the House said that re-engagement was not necessarily appropriate yet because of the security situation, but I understand from the Permanent Secretary at the Foreign Office that the Foreign Office is engaging in reconnection on all those issues in which people like me were heavily involved before Colonel Gaddafi lost his head. The concern now is that we should have proper re-engagement on all those levels at which a start was being made on getting to the guts of developing a new society. Are the British Government encouraging that? Will there be re-engagement of the European Union on the association agreement negotiations which were not only under way but going quite well and involved discussions on human rights? There was a lot going on, and there is a lot to pick up again. We were absolutely engaged on those issues. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to reassure us that we will get back in there on those issues.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Baroness brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to her questions. She has demonstrated how much good work has already been done, and there is absolutely no reason why it should not continue, though there is an immediate security problem to overcome.

There is no reason that I can think of why proper re-engagement on all these areas should not continue with the NTC and, ultimately, under a new Government over the course of time. That is very much what the British Government will seek to support.

I cannot comment on the EU but, again, I cannot see a good reason why those agreements should not be made with a new Government when they are established.

[Baroness Morris of Bolton]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Morris of Bolton]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement repeated by my noble friend the Leader of the House and also his replies to the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition and to the noble Baroness, Lady Symons. They are important because the Libyan people feel close to the British at the moment. I chair the Conservative Middle East Council. Our director, Leo Docherty, and my deputy and honourable friend, Adam Holloway MP, have just spent the past five days in Tripoli. They are flying the union jack and Qatari flags at the moment in Martyr Square and asking when the Prime Minister might visit. The Prime Minister undoubtedly made an impact when he visited Tahrir Square after the revolution in Egypt. If he could visit Libya as soon as possible, he would have a very warm welcome from the Libyan people.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I commend the work that my noble friend does in the Middle East Council. I am delighted to hear that some of her colleagues have been in Tripoli in the course of the last five days. The whole House will understand that, for entirely obvious reasons, I could not possibly comment on when or if the Prime Minister is planning a visit to Tripoli. I also agree with my noble friend that the links between the people of Libya and the people of this country are close, should be closer and no doubt will become closer over the course of the next few months and years.