House of Lords Reform Bill

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

It is all very well noble Lords laughing at this. The public will see that they are laughing at a huge amount of public money being spent on a referendum when all three parties and the coalition manifesto said that there should be reform of this House.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

On the contrary, I think that noble Lords were probably laughing at the transparent inadequacy of the answer. We now see on page 36 of the Bill the enormous constituencies that are proposed for electing Members of this House. There are eight of these huge constituencies and it will take the votes of millions of people to send Members to your Lordships’ House in the future. Does the noble Lord the Leader of the House really think that people sent here for 15 years with the backing of millions of votes are going to defer to Members of the House of Commons, who will be sent to represent constituencies with electorates of no more than 80,000 on a minute proportion of the votes for only five years? Self-evidently, Members of this House will be much more powerful than colleagues at the other end of the Corridor. I hope that the noble Lord will answer that in terms of how it will automatically affect primacy. I do not think that Members of this House will go on deferring to the Members of that House in the way that we do while we are unelected and they are elected.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree with some of what the noble Baroness says: I think that elected Members will probably defer less than is the case with the current House. That of course is something that the House of Commons will need to take into account when it comes to its conclusions on this, and it is right that it should do so. There would be no point in doing this if this House were less assertive than it currently is. The fact that Peers will have been elected will give us an authority and legitimacy that we do not have at the moment. However, I think it will be argued by Members of the other place that the House of Commons has ultimate legislative supremacy because of the provisions of the Parliament Acts, because the Government of the day is formed from the party or parties that can command a majority in the House of Commons and because the House of Commons has control of financial matters. These are the protections for another place.

Business

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Tuesday 29th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that yesterday HMRC increased the tax on skips depositing in landfill sites from £2.50 per tonne to £64 per tonne, with no notice? That is an increase of nearly 2,500%. I thought that those sorts of figures were from wonga.com, not HMRC. Is he not aware of the great risk to business that causes and that it should therefore have been brought to Parliament and announced here?

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, whatever the view of the noble Lord the Leader of the House about caravans and Cornish pasties, he must see that the changes that have been made to the courts and coroners proposals are highly significant. When my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition put her original question, she stressed that point to the noble Lord the Leader of the House. Unless I am mistaken, he did not address that very important point in his initial answer to her. I wonder whether he would be kind enough to take that point into account now in his reply to the House.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I was trying to be sensitive to the feelings of the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition. The Bill had its First Reading in this House yesterday, was published this morning and is in the Public Bill Office for all noble Lords to read. Perhaps I can thank the noble Baroness for making sure that noble Lords recognise what happened in the House yesterday; the information is therefore there for all to read.

That is evidence that announcements made in Parliament are very often ignored. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is making a mountain out of a molehill. The pasty tax is not a trivial matter, but it is surely not the most important and significant matter that we are dealing with.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not think that it was particularly candid of me to express a view that there was not much unity on this proposal in the Conservative Party in this House, or, indeed, in the Labour Party in this House. Anyone who has read the debates that we have had over the past 10 or 12 years would have to be completely bonkers not to recognise that. However, that is not so true in the House of Commons. The Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons have largely unified around all this. However, the point that my noble friend Lord Lawson makes is that we would not be in this position if, over the past 10 years, the Labour Party had not sought to reform this Chamber and make it more democratic. That debate must now come to an end. We cannot keep on talking about this. We have had enough of Joint Committees looking at draft Bills and of endless White Papers and royal commissions. We now need to move forward and make a decision. That is what this Government are going to do over the next few months.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, before the noble Lord the Leader of the House sits down, may I ask him a question not about who did what when, or whose fault this is, but about the Joint Committee report? A little earlier he said that the Joint Committee supported a mainly elected House of Lords. However, he omitted to say—I will quote from what the Joint Committee actually said—that it agreed that the reformed second Chamber of legislature,

“should have an electoral mandate, provided it has commensurate powers”.

The noble Lord might acknowledge that this is not just about an elected second Chamber. The phrase,

“provided it has commensurate powers”,

is a very important one. I hope he will acknowledge that that is what the Joint Committee said, as opposed to what he omitted to say.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I very much look forward to hearing the noble Baroness’s speech, when she will be able to explain exactly what she means, or what she thinks the Joint Committee meant, by “commensurate powers”.

Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 30th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Richard, for his introduction to the debate and for his chairmanship of the Joint Committee. His stamina and determination were both fully tested in his chairmanship of a very diverse and opinionated group of parliamentarians. I declare an interest not only as a member of that committee but as one of the signatories to the alternative report. There were 12 of us—just one short of half the Joint Committee. Our group of 12 was also diverse, with MPs and Peers from both the Labour and Conservative Parties, and with Cross-Bench and episcopal support. Some of us supported a fully elected second Chamber; others did not.

However, the crucial and fundamental starting point on which we all agreed was that the draft Bill and White Paper offer a misleading prospectus for change. Reading them, that is apparent from the start. The introduction to the White Paper, strongly emphasised by the Deputy Prime Minister in his evidence, says that,

“it is important that those who make the laws of the land should be elected by those to whom those laws apply”.

The House of Lords is of course part of the legislative process—we scrutinise legislation and suggest amendments to the Commons—but every single decision that goes into law is ultimately a Commons decision. When I was a young civil servant, I was told that that is why the Commons votes Aye and No and we in the Lords vote only Content and Not-Content. The lawmakers—the ultimate decision takers—are the Commons, because they are elected.

Another questionable premise is set out in the summary of proposals which deals with powers. The summary says that it is proposed to elect the Lords without changes to the fundamental relationship with the Commons which, it claims, rests partly on the Parliament Acts and on Commons financial privilege. Commons primacy rests on the simple fact that the Commons is elected and we are not. Erskine May makes this absolutely plain in the section that deals with the power and jurisdiction of Parliament. On primacy, Erskine May states:

“The dominant influence enjoyed by the House of Commons within Parliament may be ascribed principally to its status as an elected assembly, the Members of which serve as the chosen representatives of the people”.

On financial privilege, it states:

“As such the House of Commons possesses the most important power vested in any branch of the legislature, the right of imposing taxes upon the people and of voting money for the public service”.

Moreover, the preamble to the Parliament Act 1911 states that the Act was necessary because the Lords was not,

“constituted on a popular … basis”.

That is, it was not elected. Once the Lords is elected, the reasons for the Parliament Act are eroded. Both Houses will be constituted on a popular basis and contain, as Erskine May says,

“the chosen representatives of the people”.

Despite these arguments, it is still possible to argue that, as part of the legislative machinery, Members of this House should indeed be elected. One can mount a logical and sustainable argument to support that. What is not logical or sustainable is to argue that Commons primacy and the current relationship between the two Houses will be unchanged. The Government were obviously aware of the problem and proposed Clause 2 of the draft Bill. We took a great deal of evidence on Clause 2. Only two supporters gave evidence in favour of it—the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Clegg, and the Minister responsible, Mr Harper. The entire Joint Committee agreed that Clause 2 is a nonsense—unworkable and misconceived. However, many of us believe that there is more to it than that. There is a fundamental flaw in the Bill, which is the unbridgeable gap between the Government’s proposals for electing the House of Lords and the continuation of Commons primacy.

An elected House of Lords may well strengthen democracy. Having campaigned, canvassed and got support, Members would be elected on the basis of a mandate. They would represent their electors and be expected to exercise a mandate on behalf of those electors. The Government seem to think that democracy is solely about elections, but it is about the elected acting on behalf of their electorate. Why should an elected Peer subjugate the wishes of his or her electorate to those of an elected MP? What is the logic of continuing Commons primacy after the Lords is elected?

The Government have one basic answer to that question: do as much as possible to distance the elected Peer from his or her electorate. The supporters of the draft Bill claim that, if enacted, it would strengthen our democracy and the House would be more democratic and legitimate. However, at every point, the draft Bill and the White Paper seek to distance the elected Peer from their electors. They are quite open about this. The 15-year term is designed to ensure that the Commons mandate is always fresher. The non-renewable nature of the Lords’ term and the block on an elected Lord standing for the Commons have nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with protecting MPs from locally elected Peers who may become just a bit too popular.

The huge multi-constituencies of more than 500,000 people will ensure distance between the electors and the elected. These measures will not achieve their ends—that of protecting the Commons. Nor are they anything like as democratic as they should be. Elected Peers with a 15-year term, representing more than 500,000 voters, will be alongside MPs with five-year terms and constituencies of around 76,000. Will a Peer who is entrenched for 15 years, representing 500,000 and possibly elected by thousands more than the local MP, have more or less weight than the local MP?

Secondly, there is self-evidently little or no accountability in this system. At one point in the Joint Committee’s discussions, I was told that this is not about accountability. I may be wrong but I thought accountability was part and parcel of a modern democracy. The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, is quite right: of course, we need reform. I support the sort of reform put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. We could take that forward now, but then we would need to turn to the much bigger and more serious question of House of Lords elections. Electing the Lords would change the political and constitutional landscape of this country and would affect the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies. It demands serious consideration of electoral systems, including indirect elections, but above all it needs an honest and clear determination of what the new relationship between the two Houses will be. To achieve that we need to do two things. First, we need to reconvene the Joint Committee on Conventions originally chaired by my noble friend Lord Cunningham. The Deputy Prime Minister says that the conventions will evolve. We cannot run a country on a “let us see what happens” basis. That would be constitutionally disastrous and utterly irresponsible. No Government worth their salt should even contemplate doing so.

The second thing that we need to do is to set up a properly comprehensive constitutional convention to work through all the questions that need answers. I know opponents of this say that it constitutes kicking the measure into the long grass, but that is a feeble answer to such a serious question. A constitutional convention is the responsible and sensible way to resolve the huge questions that the supporters of the Bill have so conspicuously failed to answer. We did it for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so why not do it for the United Kingdom as a whole? Why should our constitutional settlement be treated with any less care and respect than those of our constituent parts? Of course, political decisions need to be taken on this matter but we need to do so much more than that. We need to hear from the people of this country what they think.

Therefore, ultimately, we need a referendum. I understand why the Liberal Democrats are so opposed to that; the AV result must have been a terrible shock to them. However, they argue, and the noble Lord the Leader of the House has argued, that there is no need for a referendum because at the 2010 election all three parties supported the election of the House of Lords. However, the noble Lord needs to remember that no one actually won the 2010 election. In fact, like us, the Liberal Democrats lost seats. The only party that won seats was his party, which said that this was a third-term issue. Real democracy means electing the Lords with commensurate powers, as the main report says—a point left out by many who have spoken on this issue this afternoon. We were agreed on the need to have commensurate powers and for the individual to have the power to act on behalf of his or her electorate as a Minister, Secretary of State, even Prime Minister, and to be part of a properly constituted democratic body.

In a speech that he made in December last year, the Deputy Prime Minister accused this House of having only a “veneer of expertise”. I put it to your Lordships that this Bill will not do because it has only a veneer of democracy.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, I entirely agree with her remarks about primacy, but is there not also a concern that such a system would rob us completely of the independent Peers in this House?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, of course, the position of the independent Peers is very important. It is addressed in the main report. That is, of course, why so many people want to see the House being elected on a 20:80 basis, which would address the point about the Cross-Bench Peers. However, what it does not address is independence within the parties because, as we all know, the Whip would be cracked a bit more effectively over all of us than it is at the moment, and that would rob us of a degree of our independence.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, would the noble Baroness like to reiterate her support for a 100 per cent elected House?

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I do, if this House is to be elected with commensurate powers. That is my starting point. We did not vote simply on electing the House. The committee agreed that there should be commensurate powers. If there are commensurate powers—that is, doing away with Commons primacy and everything else to which I have just referred—yes, I do support a 100 per cent elected House on that basis, but only on that basis.

News Corporation: Conduct of Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 30th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very helpful intervention. Of course, we can all use the benefit of hindsight and see that things were not done in an appropriate way. That is why the Prime Minister, as early as last week, asked the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, and the Head of the Civil Service, Sir Bob Kerslake, to write to all departments and Ministers,

“clarifying the rigorous procedures that departments should have in place for handling cases of this nature”,

so that suspicion does not fall on departments, Ministers and their special advisers.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, when the Leader of the House was replying to my noble friend Lady Royall, he kept asking—I have to say, in a slightly excitable way—“What is going on? What is going on?”. It is very simple. It is the enforcement of the Ministerial Code. That is what we on this side of the House—and, I think, many Cross-Benchers—are very concerned about. The fact is that the Prime Minister tried to refer this to Lord Leveson. Does the Leader of the House agree with Lord Leveson that it was inappropriate for the Prime Minister to try to refer this matter of ministerial discipline and the Ministerial Code to Lord Leveson, which is not within his remit, as the original Statement clearly showed? That is the first point.

The second point is that the special adviser says that the Secretary of State knew nothing about his contacts. That may be so and no doubt an investigation will show whether or not that is correct. Notwithstanding that, paragraph 3.3 of the Ministerial Code—which is what we are talking about—is clear. It states:

“The responsibility for the management and conduct of special advisers, including discipline, rests with the Minister who made the appointment”.

Mr Hunt made the appointment. The special adviser’s contraventions were so serious that he has had to resign. Should the Secretary of State not have had mechanisms in place for discharging his very specific responsibility for the “management and conduct” of his special adviser and, if he did, what were they?

Arrangement of Business

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

Before I conclude, can I just say that I know there is a great deal of interest in this subject. We have a system of discussing these issues within the usual channels. Would it not be better for us to use the usual channels? We thought we had an agreement until half an hour ago. Perhaps we should use the usual channels again to debate the matter further.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, perhaps I may raise a point that has not been made so far, which is that the debate is not to be time-limited for individual speakers. Therein lies the problem, because if noble Lords look at the Companion, they will find that they could speak for up to 15 minutes each, and—given the enthusiasm that there is about this subject—if noble Lords chose to speak for that length of time, the idea that we would rise at midnight, or even 2 am or 3 am, is fanciful. On that basis, we will be here well into Tuesday. Of course noble Lords must operate a certain amount of self-restraint, but even if they were to speak for only half the time, some seven and a half minutes, I calculate that they would still be here for nine or 10 hours. This is not sensible and I ask the noble Lord to think. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, “No time limitations”. I do not know why he said that; most people could make pithy effective speeches within four or five minutes, and then take part in the longer debate on the Queen’s Speech. That would be an effective way of dealing with this. I disagreed with what the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said; he is not in his place to defend his views, but it was none the less daft to suggest that we should not be time-limited. I suggest that we try to have time-limited speeches and finish at a sensible hour.

[Lord Richard]

Perhaps I may make one little point to the noble Lord when he is considering what should happen—what he should do about this. My recollection is that on the last day before Prorogation, there is a rush among government departments to say things that they have not had the opportunity to say before. All we need is one or two Statements on Monday and the whole of the timetable is pushed back by another hour or hour and a half. Can he guarantee that there will not be any Statements on Monday?

Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2012

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, I support very strongly my noble friend Lord Newton's point. While the House of Commons is perfectly entitled to claim privilege, it is not compelled to do so. The constitution of this country operates by conventions. It is one of the conventions of the constitution that this is evoked very sparingly and on rare occasions. For it to be invoked promiscuously is completely contrary to the conventions of the constitution. This raises serious issues and the House of Commons would be wise to think again.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has just said and revert to the Cunningham committee report, which was very clear on the question of conventions developing and changing over a period of time. It specifically addressed whether the conventions should be codified and decided that that was not helpful to the way in which Parliament operates, but that conventions could develop. The Leader of the House quoted only part of the Cunningham report and not the point in its entirety.

House of Lords: Scottish Referendum

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am well aware of the respect with which it is held in this House. However, it does fly in the face of the three manifestos on which the Members of the House of Commons were elected only 18 months ago.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, is it not the case that because the people of this country had no chance to vote for any party except those that support Lords reform, they ought to be afforded such an opportunity?

Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I will not be tempted down that road by my noble friend.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I congratulate the Leader of the House on the skill with which he has dealt with the remarks of the Deputy Prime Minister. The noble Lord has answered them in exactly the way that they merited.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness.

European Council

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I really do not believe that Britain’s influence or reputation have been affected in any way negatively by what was done at the end of last week. If anything, they have been enhanced. A British Prime Minister laid out very carefully what he was going to do to protect British vital interests. He went and negotiated, and when he could not get what he believed was right, he said, “I am not going to agree”. That is a position of courage, and he was absolutely right to make that decision.

On the question of the institutions of the EU, which I know are of great interest to many Members of this House, at this stage it is too early to take a view of what is proposed or all the detail of what is meant and what EU institutions are going to be asked to do at what stage. We will look very carefully at these proposals as they come out.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, there has been a lot of controversy about when exactly the British proposals were put before our colleagues in the European Union. May I follow up on the question raised by my noble friend Lord Mandelson and ask when exactly were these proposals put to the French?

Secondly, the text of the Statement twice refers to an intergovernmental arrangement being “not without risks”. Can the Minister tell us what are the risks that the Government acknowledge are inherent in the intergovernmental position that is now before us?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I cannot give an exact date as to when the proposals were put to the French, but, if I can find out, I will be very happy to write to the noble Baroness. However, the generality of the Prime Minister’s position has been well known for some weeks, and particularly over the course of the days leading up to the summit. Of course, even within an intergovernmental treaty, there are some risks attached. To some extent, we will have to wait to see exactly how that works out. As to the kind of risks, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, spelt out that there are some countries that might feel the need to go along with what the big countries in the intergovernmental treaty want. Again, we shall have to wait to see. Nobody should be under any illusions that the British Government will not continue to fight very strongly for vital British interests, whether it is within an EU treaty or an intergovernmental treaty.