Covid-19 Update

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

Very quickly, analysis from PHE and NHS Test and Trace suggests that pubs, bars, restaurants and cafes account for the highest rates of common exposure for Covid, especially in those under-30. We will of course continue to keep an eye on financial support, which we have continued to do. I am afraid I did not hear the third part of the question.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, the House will have noted that the Leader of the House, in answering the questions put by my noble friend Lady Smith, did not answer the specific question of whether or not the Cabinet was aware of, or saw, the SAGE advice for 21 September before the decision was taken to have a lockdown. Perhaps the noble Baroness could answer that now. Perhaps she could also say why the Prime Minister, having relied so heavily on scientific advice, chose on this occasion to ignore it and to ignore the warnings about the catastrophic position if it were ignored.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I have never and will never comment on Cabinet meetings, so I have said as much as I can in answer to the noble Baroness. I also said, with regard to the decisions being made, that we will continue to take advice from a wide range of scientific and medical experts, but we will also have to look at the wide economic policy implications of decisions. That is why we believe that the tiered approach, which comes into effect only today, is correct at this time.

Update to Parliament

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend is right that this was a complex matter. As I said in an earlier answer, there were differing views among different courts and senior and distinguished lawyers. However, as the noble Baroness said, the Supreme Court came to a unanimous verdict. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said, the ruling will have a long-reaching and long-lasting impact, and we will all reflect on that over the coming months.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, what I am about to say in no way reflects on the noble Baroness’s good faith. I do not think that anybody in this House has any doubt that she is doing her best. Personally, like my noble friend Lord Winston, I genuinely feel extremely sorry that she has had to deliver such an extraordinary rant to your Lordships. I say very gently to her I am sorry, too, that she was not here for the three earlier debates this afternoon. I know that it is difficult to prepare for questions—I have been Deputy Leader of the House and know exactly what it is like when you are in a difficult situation—but she really might have listened in person to some of what was said, and then she might have been able to understand the feeling of this House about what has happened.

The Supreme Court’s judgment was not nuanced. As we all know, it was completely unanimous. I do not know whether the noble Baroness listened to the judgment by the President of the Supreme Court. It was extraordinarily lucid and absolutely clear. You did not have to be a politician to understand it, because it was very clear what was being said by all 11 judges. They are not all politically fixed; they have many different backgrounds. It was unequivocal, and nothing in the Statement acknowledges that.

I have two questions for the noble Baroness; I am sorry because I expect they are rather difficult to answer. She is a member of the Cabinet and says she was told by the Attorney-General that the proroguement was lawful. Did she see the Attorney-General’s advice? That is the crucial question that the noble Baroness has to answer. Did she ask to see the advice, and did she see it? Or, like Amber Rudd, did she ask to see it, was told that she would see it and believes that it was intercepted by Downing Street?

Secondly, was the issue of the proroguement discussed in Cabinet? Was it discussed round the Cabinet table, not in little side conversations, or did the Prime Minister seek to do the same thing that he has done with Parliament—bypassing Parliament and the Cabinet too? Those are two very straightforward questions which really deserve yes or no answers.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

In relation to the noble Baroness’s point about the decision, I have said repeatedly that we accept the judgment and we accept that we lost the case. I will not comment on Cabinet discussions—I never have, and I am not going to start now. As I said, I was not stopped from seeing the legal advice; I sought and received confirmation of it from the Attorney-General and that he believed that the advice was lawful.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

Did you ask for the advice?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I did not ask for the advice; I accepted the word of the senior law officer that in his view it was lawful and constitutional. I am not a lawyer and I took that in good and sound faith and believed at that point that his advice was lawful. Indeed, as we have said, other distinguished lawyers agreed. The Supreme Court has made a ruling that is different—we accept that and we will abide by it. When I went to the Privy Council meeting, I did it on the back of the legal advice that the senior lawyer had given.

Working Group on Independent Complaints and Grievance Policy

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments and for his evidence to the committee. I am sure we will work closely with his committee as we move this work forward. He is absolutely right about the need for leadership, which is why I hope, and am sure, that our House commission will play a role in helping to make sure we can oversee these changes. It is partly why the working group will become a steering group: to make sure that we see the rapid progress that the noble Baroness was talking about and that we continue to provide leadership and representation across both Houses to get these processes in place.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, as I am sure most noble Lords do, I welcome the report; it takes a difficult matter very seriously. However, there are a couple of points on which I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could provide us with some further information.

The Statement says that the working group recognised that those who work in this place are often in the media spotlight and that vexatious and malicious complaints are a risk. It goes on to say that procedures will ensure that checks and balances are in place to safeguard against such complaints. Can the noble Baroness say a little bit more about such checks and balances? It has perhaps been felt that once an individual is targeted, all sorts of other people will then say, “Yes, this dreadful thing also happened to me”. I am sure that is often entirely true, but on the point made in the Statement about vexatious complaints it would helpful if the noble Baroness could say a little more.

My second point is about what we call “inappropriate behaviour”. As my noble friend Lady Smith said, it can mean different things to different people. It might be an inappropriate remark to somebody which is embarrassing or just plain silly. That is very different from bringing pressure to bear on an individual to respond to a sexual advance. Will the noble Baroness say a little more about the definition of what is really inappropriate?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

On the noble Baroness’s second point, about inappropriate behaviour, she is absolutely right, which is why we are procuring external experts, one with specific expertise in sexual violence and sexual harassment and another to look more at bullying and harassment. They will have the expertise and knowledge to help those who wish to complain work out what they want to do and to give them support and guidance. That is part of why we are going externally to deliver these services: to make sure we have experts who can help victims and complainants navigate the process.

On vexatious claims, the noble Baroness is absolutely right: it was a concern raised within the working group and by various people who gave evidence. Obviously, confidentiality throughout the process will be key. As the Statement made clear, we will also make sure that both victims and alleged perpetrators have access to the information available and to support, advice and representation if they need it. That way, we can make sure that everyone is able to put their case forward and that both parties can respect whatever decision is ultimately made and deal with its outcome, be it the perpetrator having a sanction imposed or the victim feeling that they have had their case properly heard.

European Council

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister certainly stressed our commitment to working with our European partners to tackle the Mediterranean migration crisis. Reforms to the Italian asylum process and implementation of the EU-Turkey deal are helping to relieve pressure on EU migrant returns, but of course we are very concerned about the conditions that many of these migrants live in. That is why last month in Valletta we announced a further £30 million in UK aid to assist refugees and migrants across Greece, the Balkans, Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria and Sudan, which will provide immediate life-saving aid to vulnerable migrants, help to train front-line workers responding to the crisis and support voluntary returns and reintegration.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, there is no reference in this Statement to any joint European response to the appalling famine in South Sudan. This is the first declaration of famine in the world for a number of years, and 2 million people are at imminent risk of starvation. Was this simply ignored in the meeting last week? Was it discussed in the margins? I am bound to say I was very surprised not to see any reference whatever to one of the worst humanitarian crises we have seen in a very long time.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think all of us around the House share the noble Baroness’s concern. I am not aware that it was discussed, but obviously I was not there either. Perhaps I could confirm whether that is the case and let her know, but it was not on the formal agenda, no.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not believe that leaving the European Union is in the best interests of this country. I voted to remain. I very much wish that the remain side had prevailed in the referendum. However, it did not. The people of this country voted decisively—not overwhelmingly, but certainly decisively—to leave, with a majority of 1.3 million over we remainers. However, as others, including my noble friend Lady Kennedy have made clear today, the referendum vote last June was not legally or constitutionally binding either upon Parliament or upon the Government. That said, it is hard to escape the political reality that it was a clear instruction from the British people. Nevertheless, it raises questions about how the result of the referendum fits in with our representative democracy.

Yesterday, the noble Lord, Lord Hague, said that Tony Blair would not have been “amused”—I think that was the word that he used—if he—that is, the noble Lord, Lord Hague—had challenged the result of the 2001 election within nine months of its taking place. He is probably right. However, the crucial difference is that the people of this country had the right to change their minds four years later in 2005. Will the British people have the right to change their mind in 2019 or 2020 when the results of these negotiations are clear? Is the truthful answer not that the position will become settled, not just for this generation, not just for us, but for the next generation and probably long after our generation has gone?

Accordingly, I seek clarification on two issues from the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, when he answers this debate. In paragraph 26 of the recent Supreme Court judgment that found that the Government were wrong to believe that they had the prerogative power sufficient to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty and that only Parliament could take that decision, the Supreme Court said,

“it is common ground that notice under article 50(2) … cannot be given in qualified or conditional terms and that, once given, it cannot be withdrawn”.

The judgment goes on to say:

“It follows from this that once the United Kingdom gives notice, it will inevitably cease at a later date to be a member of the European Union”.


There is some doubt, because the Supreme Court said that it had not fully tested that argument and obviously there are differing views. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who, as the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, said earlier, knows a thing or two about drafting treaties, has been quoted as saying that the Government can withdraw from Article 50 at any point during the negotiations. What is the Government’s view?

It is a vital point. Once Article 50 is triggered, will this country be irrevocably committed to leave without an agreement on future relationships or without the sort of agreement that our European colleagues say they are willing to give us, which will be much worse than the agreements that we already have? I stress that I am not asking the Minister a political point; I am asking him for his legal view on the legal advice. Can he, unlike the Justice Secretary, who evaded this point repeatedly at the weekend, give us a clear answer?

The fact is that at the end of the negotiating period in 2019 it will be almost three years since the referendum decision, and demographics change. In a few weeks’ time there will be half a million new 18 year-old voters. At the same time, approximately the same number of the over-65s who were eligible to vote last June will have died. In two years, those figures will be even more startling. It was clear in the referendum that a substantial majority of 18 to 30 year-olds wanted to remain but that the majority of those aged 65-plus wanted to leave. Binding future generations with no option but to accept whatever the outcome of these negotiations happens to be seems at the very least to be unwise, unfair and probably unworkable.

I am the chairman of the Arab-British Chamber of Commerce. Since the referendum, the chamber has worked very hard to encourage discussions with our members on free trade agreements. We had a conference at Lancaster House last year and, of course, we visit the region regularly, and I shall be doing so again very shortly. Like many others, I am committed to doing everything I can to keep this country prosperous and to support trade and investment whatever the outcome of the negotiations. However, the Government must answer the vital questions about what will happen in those negotiations.

Our currency has lost 15% to 20% of its value, prices are rising in our supermarkets and family budgets are more squeezed than ever. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, probably made one of the most telling points in her remarks yesterday when she said that, whatever the people of this country voted for on 23 June last year, they did not vote to become poorer. So a take-it-or-leave-it vote in Parliament will not be sufficient and it will not be fair—not fair to business or to manufacturing; not fair to families; not fair to the people of this country; and, overwhelmingly, not fair to the young people who will have to live with the results of these negotiations far longer than any of us debating here today.

Brexit: Trade

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Mobarik]

My noble friend has taken the words right out of my mouth.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the chairman of the Arab-British Chamber of Commerce. Can the Minister confirm that there is nothing to inhibit discussions, and indeed agreements, on memoranda of understanding over trade even while we are a member of the European Union and that such memoranda of understanding might well then form the basis for trade agreements after we leave?

[Baroness Mobarik]

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness.

Syria: UK Military Action

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hague of Richmond, for his terrific maiden speech. I am sure that we all look forward to many more speeches from him.

I will raise three different questions during this short address. First, like many people, I remain to be convinced about the Prime Minister’s confidence regarding ground forces, particularly the 70,000 Syrian opposition fighters who were highlighted in his Statement last week. In it, he said that they were principally from the Free Syrian Army—a point stressed by the noble Baroness the Leader of the House in opening today’s debate. Can the noble Earl, Lord Howe, say whether the Russian Government have agreed to support the Free Syrian Army forces in taking on Daesh, or will the Russians continue to attack them because they are the forces that have principally been opposing the Assad regime? Have our Government engaged with the Russians actively on this point? Will Russia attack the Free Syrian Army as a force opposed to Bashar Assad, or will it support it as a force opposed to Daesh?

Secondly, the Prime Minister referred in last week’s Statement to what he termed the “full answer”, which,

“cannot be achieved until there is a new Syrian Government who represent all the Syrian people—not just Sunni, Shi’a and Alawite, but Christian, Druze and others”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/11/15; col. 1491.]

Later in that same Statement, the Prime Minister referred to Iran and Saudi Arabia being at the same table as Russia, America, France, Turkey and Britain. Again, an important question is: has everyone at that table agreed explicitly that the new Syrian Government must represent all the Syrian people? I can well believe that that represents the view of America, France and this country but I am very doubtful about the Russians, given their unswerving support of the Alawite regime, and I am even more sceptical about the attitude of the mullahs in Tehran.

My third point is a constitutional one that is very much along the lines of the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. It is right that Parliament should have its say on this crucial question. As Parliament is currently constituted, that means the elected House. This evening, it is right that we in this House debate but do not decide, and right that in the other place they debate and decide. However, does the Minister agree that even though the Government are seeking the approval of the House of Commons, it remains the responsibility of the Government—the Executive, not the legislature—to direct any military action? Moreover, while the Government are responsible for any military action, the House of Commons maintains a collective responsibility for its decisions. Once taken, the decision is the decision of the House as a whole, covering all the Members of the House whether they have voted for it or not. Voting against the Motion does not remove somebody from the responsibility of the collective decision the House has taken. Can the Minister say whether that is the right analysis?

If this House were to be elected, maybe we, too, would have a determinative vote. As it is, I, like many others, can only offer my support to the Government. I understand the many misgivings that have been voiced around the House, but we have the legal framework, the vision for the future and the military capability to offer real support. Above all, we have to do everything we can to stop this appalling and evil Daesh regime, which tortures, rapes and murders without mercy not just fighters who oppose it but defenceless women and children. The Government have made their case and deserve our support.

Syria: Foreign Affairs Committee Report

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the noble Lord’s first point about financial support for the terrorists, I can be absolutely clear that we are very clear in our requests to our partners to withhold any kind of financial support from terrorist groups. The reason why I can be clear and confident with him is that we now have in place resolutions that prevent this happening—and there is no evidence of this coming from Governments, from partners. We are urging our partners, the neighbouring countries in the area, to apply their efforts to make sure that individuals in those countries do not provide financial support to terrorist groups.

The Free Syrian Army is being effective on the ground. We believe that it will continue to increase its effectiveness with greater support from the air.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, the Statement says that we are now seeing Iran and Saudi Arabia sitting down at the same table as Russia, America, France, Turkey and Britain. These are not easy bedfellows. Many of these different parts of the coalition have long-standing, real, substantive difficulties with each other. Page 8 of the Statement says that the full answer cannot be achieved until there is a new Syrian Government that represents all the Syrian people, not just Sunnis, Shias and Alawites, but Christians and Druze, but how much is that fundamental point made in the Statement accepted by all the people sitting around the table? That is a crucial point not just in going into a conflict but in coming out of it, as the Statement makes clear later. I think we all agree that the aftermath in Iraq saw the appalling dismantling of the institutions. That has to be agreed, and understandings have to be reached before any real fighting gets under way in the way that the Statement anticipates.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We are very clear that a stable Government in Syria is an essential part of the long-term eradication of ISIL. Ensuring that is at the heart of the talks in Vienna. The Statement says that there are some differences, which Prime Minister has acknowledged. We are working to achieve full and clear agreement on that—and that is what we will pursue, because we know it is essential to long-term success.

Syria: Refugees and Counterterrorism

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend makes an important point. One of the reasons why we believe that the policy we have adopted of giving refuge to people via a resettlement programme that includes a very thorough screening process by the UNHCR is the right one is that it offers us a much better assurance that we do not risk people coming to this country to attack us. We cannot have the same assurances in respect of those fleeing Syria who have been accepted through routes adopted by others in the European Union.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement’s explicit commitment—

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend remarked on those crossing the Mediterranean. I think we were right to provide assistance via the Royal Navy to those who require rescue from the crossings. However, he raised an important point that I do not think I have yet addressed in response. There are criminals involved in taking advantage of these very vulnerable and desperate people. They are making money out of people in great danger. By following our policy, we are trying to make it clear that there is another way to refuge that does not require the risk. It should also mean, therefore, that we are able to disrupt the criminal behaviour of people abusing the weakness and vulnerability of people.

On my noble friend’s point about Schengen, he is absolutely right that it is very important that the borders of the European Union are properly held and policed and that we, although we are not a member of Schengen, should do all that we can to make sure that those borders are strong. That is where we make a very strong contribution, have done for a long time, and will continue to do, because we do not think that Europe is doing all that it should in maintaining its borders.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords—

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord raises an important point—that not all those arriving in Europe are refugees, and some are economic migrants. That is another reason why we believe that our policy is better than the one that others in Europe are adopting because, informed by the specific advice from the UNHCR, we are able to make sure that those to whom we give refuge are not seeking a better life for themselves for only economic reasons while not at immediate risk. Regarding the other points raised by the noble Lord, clearly it is essential that we maintain our borders and that is something that we continue to do.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify a couple of points in the Statement. It makes the point that this country has provided sanctuary for more than 5,000 Syrians so far. It goes on to say that we will settle up to 20,000 Syrian refugees over the Parliament. Are we in total proposing to settle 25,000 or are the 5,000 already subsumed in the 20,000 mentioned later in the Statement?

The Statement also says that we will play our part,

“alongside our other European partners”,

and then goes on to say that we will decide our “own approach”. While I did not altogether welcome the tone of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, he does have a very strong point indeed. Surely a child who has drowned on a beach in Europe does every bit as much to excite our compassion as a child washed up on a beach outside our borders. The response of the British public in the last 10 days or so has shown that actually people are not that concerned whether we are taking people solely from the refugee camps pinpointed in the Statement. Surely it is right that if we really are demonstrating compassion we extend it to people who are suffering every bit as much in the countries of Europe of which we are a part. I hope the Minister can assure us that that point will be kept under constant review and that the Government will keep listening to what the British people say about this, because I for one do not believe that the Government have quite got the message yet.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can confirm for the noble Baroness and the House that the 20,000 mentioned in the Statement are in addition to the 5,000 refugees that we have already given sanctuary to, so that number will not be absorbed into the 20,000. As far as her other comments are concerned, I agree that the people of this country do not draw a distinction when looking at the plight of people in desperate need. We are all moved by those in need of help and support, and by the tragic circumstances of those who have sought refuge and, on the way, have lost their own children. But alongside their not drawing a distinction between where people are coming from, at the same time, what people in this country look for—and what we as a Government are trying to do in our response to this situation—is for us to combine two simultaneous requests from the public. They are that we show our compassion by providing support for people in desperate need but do so in a way which is well organised, is actually sustainable and, in the long term, will not make matters worse; and that we have a policy that will ultimately help to bring an end to the situation causing all this desperation. I think that they look for something which is comprehensive, and that is what we are trying to deliver.

Caste Discrimination

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I duly note that.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister please write to my noble friend who raised the question of the periodic review and let him, and indeed others who are interested, know when it will take place?