Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 2nd September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle. I welcome this short Bill and the discussion I had last week with the Minister, my noble friend Lord Livermore, where I raised two specific points. While I welcome the Bill, these two points relate to, first, the establishment of Great British Energy, and, secondly, the potential impact or squeeze on the space available in the marine environment seabed for our fishing industry. In the Irish Sea, that industry fishes the 12 miles that cover the Crown Estate area.

On the day the Bill was introduced, the Government also introduced a partnership between the Crown Estate and Great British Energy to bring forward new offshore wind developments, something I welcome. But since the provisions of the Bill extend to Northern Ireland, and obviously to the Irish Sea, and since the electricity market in Ireland, north and south, is organised on an all-island basis, with the supply of electricity in Northern Ireland controlled in large part by the Irish Government as part of that all-island electricity market, I therefore ask: what function will Great British Energy have and what impact will it have on our all-island electricity market? Will it enhance or limit the provision of electricity? Has there been a partnership with the department for energy and energy providers on the island of Ireland, north and south? What discussions have taken place with the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland and with the Irish Government?

Moving swiftly on to the fishing industry, particularly the fish producer organisations and fishers who use the marine environment of the Irish Sea, what impact will the implications of this Bill, with the creation of offshore renewables, have on the ability and capacity of the sea-fish industry in Northern Ireland? I have to point out that the fishing industry, particularly in the County Down ports, already provides safeguarding for some of those offshore renewables, not only in the Irish Sea but in the Celtic and North Seas, so that work is ongoing. My issue is about the space available to fishers to actually fish and undertake their industry.

Some weeks ago, I met representatives of the fishing industry. I am going to provide some of their testimony on the potential impact of the Bill and its implications for the industry, particularly as they use and fish the area within 12 nautical miles of the coast, which includes part of the Crown Estate bed. A selection of that testimony is as follows. They believe that the Bill has

“potentially significant implications for the fishing industry. The enhanced ability of the Crown Estate to manage its portfolio, borrow capital and invest in projects aligned with the UK’s net zero commitments could lead to increased competition for marine space, particularly with respect to the expansion of offshore wind farms. Modernisation of the Crown Estate’s investment strategies could also lead to the expansion of other marine developments”.

They continue:

“As there is a finite amount of space in the Irish Sea with important nephrops fishing grounds condensed into geographically tight areas and lying adjacent to productive areas for crab, lobster, scallop and commercial fish species, the expansion of offshore renewable and other marine developments could create challenges for the fishing industry. In addition to the increased competition for space and loss or disruption to key fishing grounds, the Crown Estate’s ability to borrow and invest more flexibly could lead to broader economic changes that indirectly impact the fishing industry. The increased focus on sustainable and renewable energy may shift policy priorities which could influence how the fishing industry operates within UK waters”.


I therefore have some questions for the Minister, which are along similar lines to what I discussed with him on Thursday of last week. I am looking for assurances for the fishing industry that there will be no diminution of fishing effort. Did the Crown Estate undertake consultation with the fishing industry and the fish producer organisations? If so, what was the result and outcome from that engagement? Apparently, the Department for the Economy and DAERA in Northern Ireland undertook joint stakeholder engagement with the fishing industry there regarding spatial planning in the marine environment. From my memory, my noble friend Lord Livermore referred to that in our discussion. Did they consult the fish industry and, if so, how did that happen and who was involved? Were the results documented and published? Was the consultation actively done on a boat, in collaboration with the industry? Who, if any, were consulted and what was the result of such stakeholder engagement? Did consultation take place with the UK-based National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations and with the Marine Management Organisation?

Having had further consultation with the fishing industry on Friday of last week, they have informed me that they did not have consultation with the Crown Estate but did have consultation with the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, which in their view proved unhelpful and inadequate. Information regarding fishing grounds delineated on maps was provided to the Department for the Economy in May, following an inconclusive meeting, yet they have not received any response. In that regard, I look forward to the responses from my noble friend the Minister on the issues which I have raised.

My final point has already been raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, as the chair of Peers for the Planet, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. This matter has been raised by the Wildlife and Countryside Link, which thinks that there are some issues missing from the Bill, such as a commitment to nature recovery alongside investment in climate. It is looking for the Bill to be given

“a nature recovery objective, alongside the ability to invest in the technology, infrastructure and research required”

for further investment in climate. I would like my noble friend the Minister to provide us with some detail on that. Why was this not included in the Bill and, if amendments were put to it, would he accept from the Front Bench such amendments?

I look forward to the Minister’s answers on the foregoing issues about Great British Energy and its impact on our all-island electricity market, as it was mentioned on the day that the Bill was brought forward, and on the issues to do with nature recovery and the fishing industry.

Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 14th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith Llanfaes, respectively. I do so, following what has been said by a number of others on some detailed points, because there is an important constitutional issue and an interesting constitutional test for this Government.

It seems clear to me that in our union, it is accepted as things stand that the Crown Estate is not a union function. That is shown by the fact that it has been devolved to Scotland and therefore is quite unlike monetary policy, defence or other matters that are union functions. I see the powerful argument, advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, that our constitution should be slightly different—that this should be seen as an energy issue and reserved to the central Government—but this is not the current position and we must address things as they are. Therefore, it is very clear that when the Government look at this question, they must do so from the point of the constitution. This is a power capable of devolution and the question therefore arises, if it can be devolved to Scotland, why is it not devolved to Wales?

It is also important that we stand at a turning point in devolution. I had hoped, and still hope, that the advent of this new Government means that we think for the first time in a long time about the structure of our union—that we look on it as something that should be based on principle and good co-operation between the nations. The latter is extremely important in this policy area, bearing in mind the current constitutional structure. I keep on using the word “constitutional” because we sometimes forget that what is critical to our country is good governance based on a sound constitution.

It is said by the Scottish authority that runs the Crown Estate that they

“invest in property, natural resources and people to generate lasting value for Scotland”.

Why cannot that be given to Wales? It has been said in the past that the Welsh are not up to it, or that London knows better. I am delighted that those arguments are not being run, and I hope they are consigned to the dustbin of history. However, the Minister said the following on Second Reading:

“devolving … would significantly risk fragmenting the energy market, undermining international investor confidence and delaying the progress towards net zero by … 10 to 20 years, to the detriment of the whole nation”.—[Official Report, 2/9/24; col. 1021.]

That is similar to what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, quoted in relation to the position of the last Government. So much, possibly, for new thinking.

It is important to analyse those phrases; there is no evidence to support any of them. I hope it is not unkind to say that the use of the phrase “undermining investor confidence” is often the resort of a politician in distress. Even if there was anything in any of these points, their argument does not touch on the issue of principle: that the management of the Crown property in Wales, historically acquired by the English Crown from the Welsh people, should be for the people of Wales and the money obtained should be transparently accounted for as a distinct amount and used for their benefit, in a way decided by the Government of Wales.

Those are two key points of the devolution of the Crown Estate: management and money. If it is good enough for the Scots, why is it not right for the Welsh? It will be interesting to see how the Minister argues that specific point of constitutional principle.

The Minister knows, from his own considerable experience, that it is of course possible to run things in co-operation. What is promised by this new Government is a new approach to the union: co-operation between the Governments in Edinburgh, Cardiff, Belfast and London. If there are benefits from matters such as gearing up together to deal with the energy market then that is possible through joint ventures or other arrangements, but it in no way detracts, it seems to me, from the issues of principle—that the management of property in Wales should be for the Welsh Government and the money should go back to Wales.

In relation to that, as someone who comes from the industrial area of Wales, I know it is important to recall what happened in the last century and the century before last. Wales possessed enormous mineral wealth that drove the supplies of energy which powered our industrial revolution. Let us hope that now that there are alternative means of generating the power that is driving our present economy, the people of Wales will not be short-changed as they have been in the past.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, as a follow-on to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said in relation to Wales, if the Crown Estate is devolved to Scotland, why should it not be devolved to Northern Ireland? The Crown Estate plays a critical role in the stewardship of our seas and terrestrial environment. As well as large landholdings, the estate manages the seabed around England, Wales and Northern Ireland, along with 50% of our coastline, and it will support the tripling of the electricity sector’s capacity, with the deployment of 125 gigawatts of offshore wind by 2050.

During Second Reading, I pointed out that, in the Northern Ireland context, the electricity industry is managed on an all-island basis, north-south, through the all-Ireland electricity market. I received a very helpful response from the Minister, my noble friend Lord Livermore, in relation to this issue. Could he give some thought to the devolution of the Crown Estate to Northern Ireland, in the context of the electricity market and how the electricity supply is managed? Can he say whether there will be a connection and co-operation with the Irish Government on the Great British energy market and the all-Ireland energy market and the Irish Sea?

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, briefly, I support these amendments. I get involved, along with many other noble Lords, in offshore energy issues, particularly in Cornwall. I can see a time coming when there will be enormous pressure on central government as to where these great big tanks—the floating windmills or whatever you want to call them—are manufactured, where they are located, from where they are serviced and, probably most important of all, where the power lines come ashore. There has already been lots of talk about Port Talbot as the only possible place for their manufacture for the south-west. There is lots of flat land there and it is probably very good, but, living in Cornwall, I would like to make sure that some benefits come to the ports in Cornwall from some of those issues.

It would seem, from what many noble Lords have said, that there is a strong argument for drawing a line down the Bristol Channel out to the medium and sticking to it, then using that line for any kind of debate or discussion that takes place on offshore oil or offshore wind, or anything else like that. If not, we are going to have this kind of debate every time: “How much does Wales get?”, “How much does Cornwall get?”, “How much does Devon get?”. It would be much better if it was agreed—I am not sure by whom, but there has to be someone in this Government—where this line was and everything that leads from there.

While I am on my feet, I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister where the Duchy of Cornwall and its offshore or beach interests come into this, if at all. The Duchy of Cornwall has the right to treasure trove if treasure is found in Cornwall, and that goes into the coffers of the Duke of Cornwall—as opposed to in the rest of the country, where it would go into the coffers of the Government. Again, it would be nice to know where the boundaries are. It would be much easier to have a good debate about them if we knew where the start and finish were.

Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 5th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Hain, which was ably promoted by my noble friend Lord Murphy of Torfaen. This amendment was also signed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Humphreys, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, and the Minister.

I view this amendment from my noble friend Lord Hain as a step in the right direction because it enables Wales and Northern Ireland to be represented by commissioners. I said in the debate on the devolution amendments in Committee that devolution is particularly important. In the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, it should not become a patsy; it has to have something of meaning. To have a commissioner from the devolved regions means that you should have somebody there who understands the issues of the Crown Estate in those areas. In Northern Ireland there is the issue of escheat, where in some instances freehold land can become ownerless. On those occasions it is the local commissioner who will have that understanding of where those areas of land are, their impact and the need for their development for the benefit of the whole community.

I raised other issues in Committee, such as Great British Energy and the fact that in Northern Ireland there is an all-island electricity market. Can the Minister consider how that issue will be dealt with? There are also issues to do with fishing rights in the Irish Sea. Those issues all need to be investigated and supported by the commissioner who will represent Northern Ireland, as well as the renewable technologies, so that they are all in the right space in the seabed and do not interfere with fishing effort. The local person is best placed to do that.

I am very pleased that my noble friend the Minister has signed Amendment 11. Like my noble friend Lord Murphy, I think it shows that there is a determination and a willingness on the part of the Government to recognise the principle of devolution. I hope that in the fullness of time, the Government will move that little stage further and see the validity of devolution in all its holistic aspects. In the meantime, I am very happy to support Amendment 11.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and I am so glad she had the opportunity to bring in the Northern Ireland dimension, building on the comments that the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, made in introducing this debate. There is a synergy of interest in getting a balanced pattern to develop.

I will speak briefly in support of Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, and my noble friend Lady Smith of Llanfaes. I would have added my own name to this amendment had I not been away on family duty last week, for which I apologise. Of course, I have awaiting Second Reading a Private Member’s Bill with a similar objective to Amendment 6.

I will not detain the House by repeating the case I made at Second Reading and in Committee for the Crown Estate to be fully devolved to Wales as it is to Scotland. Let us remember that it was a Conservative Government who delivered the Act to devolve the Crown Estate to Scotland, and there is cross-party consensus among Senedd Members in Cardiff Bay, who ask, “If this is acceptable for Scotland, why on earth is it not acceptable for Wales?”.

In practical terms, the activities of the Crown Estate in Wales have mushroomed over recent years. Its financial take from Wales has grown from about £400 million a year two or three years ago to now approaching £1 billion a year. There is growing resentment that such money should flow to a body that contributes little to the Welsh public purse, and this at a time of chronic underfunding of Welsh public services.