Baroness Penn
Main Page: Baroness Penn (Conservative - Life peer)Windfall Tax: Oil, Gas and Energy Companies
Baroness Penn Excerpts
Lord Sikka
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to levying a windfall tax on the profits of oil, gas and energy companies.
Baroness Penn (Con)
The Government place additional taxes on the extraction of oil and gas, with companies engaged in the production of oil and gas on the UK continental shelf subject to headline tax rates on their profits that are currently more than double those paid by other businesses. To date, the sector has paid more than £375 billion in production taxes. All taxes are kept under review and any changes are considered and announced by the Chancellor.
Lord Sikka (Lab)
My Lords, the primary cost of producing oil, gas and green energy has hardly changed. Only the selling price has, resulting in excessive profits without any additional effort for the companies. A windfall tax is needed to help hard-pressed households. Why are the Government so wedded to their ideology rather than helping the people?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord is correct to talk about price fluctuations in the sector, of course. In spring 2020, the price of oil crashed to below $20 a barrel. That year saw investment in the sector at an all-time low, so an abrupt tax change would create further uncertainty and potentially undermine significant investment in that sector. However, the Government remain committed to supporting households with the cost of energy and have set out plans to do so.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My Lords, instead of threatening major companies such as Shell and BP, would it not be more sensible and in the interests of UK Ltd to recognise that we need those companies to pioneer work in new areas of supply for fuel and power, particularly hydrogen and areas like it?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My noble friend is right. The North Sea transition deal is a global exemplar of how the Government can work in partnership with the offshore oil and gas industry to achieve a managed energy transition.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and as president of the CBI, we feel that a windfall tax is not efficient, as it puts investments at risk for companies that are key to our transition to net zero. Does the Government agree? Secondly, do they agree that this is absolutely the wrong time for our tax burden to be at its highest level for 70 years? Businesses have suffered so much through the pandemic; will this not stifle what is already a fragile recovery?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the Government agree that an abrupt tax change could put investment in this sector at risk. While the overall tax burden is high, we have had to take certain decisions to aid our recovery from the pandemic. We saw the Government put in place so much support during the pandemic, but we need to recover, for example by getting on top of NHS waiting lists.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister tells us that the Government are concerned that a windfall tax would deter companies from investment, so let us look at that. The Norwegian Government tax companies at 22% and add 53% for those that operate in the North Sea. We apply 40% tax to profits, but we have massive rebates for investment and for decommissioning, with the result that, over five years, 19 companies that operate in the North Sea have paid no tax at all. The Norwegians have no problem getting corporate investment in the North Sea; why would we have any problem getting corporate investment in the North Sea, if we took some of these unearned profits this year to help poor people with difficulties paying their own energy bills?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, I want to be absolutely clear that the Government have put in support to help people pay their energy bills—we are spending around £9 billion on that. The noble Lord is right that the UK provides tax relief for decommissioning costs, which is something that we have in common with Norway. Of course, different oil and gas fields are at different levels of maturity and have different costs relating to further extraction, and that is reflected in our approach to the North Sea oil and gas fields that we have in the UK.
Baroness Sheehan (LD)
My Lords, despite fine words on net zero, it is nigh on impossible to get an accurate picture of the amount of money that oil majors spent on renewables. The little we do know shows that their words pay lip service only. Eni spent less than 2% on investment in renewables, and Shell and BP spent similarly derisory amounts. It really is time to stand up to them: tax their extreme profits and use the money to help people who are having to make desperate choices between heating and eating.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, I am afraid that the Government do not agree with the approach of the noble Baroness. However, where we do agree is on the essential nature of providing further support to households that are struggling with their fuel bills. That is why we are providing a £150 cash rebate for homes in council tax bands A to D, which is about 80% of all households, and a further £144 million of discretionary funding to councils for those households that would not otherwise qualify for that rebate.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, if we were really concerned about the cost of energy to poor people in our country, would it not be a good idea to remove the green levies that are adding to their bills? Surely it is naive beyond belief to imagine that we can do without gas and oil in the immediate future. The reason that prices are so high is that we are not able to produce enough of our own gas supplies. That requires investment and surely means not taxing the people who are capable of providing it.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend is right that in the short to medium term we will continue to need oil and gas supplies, and that is why the Government think that it is important that investment continues to be made in our oil fields. But we also need to fund the transition to a net-zero economy, where we move more towards clean and renewable energy in the longer term. That is why we have programmes such as the North Sea transition deal, to do that in a managed and orderly way.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, let me be absolutely clear: the Labour Party would immediately implement a windfall tax on oil and gas profits. Unlike the Government’s buy now, pay later scheme, our plan would provide a genuine £200 off most household bills, with targeted support of £600 for those who need it. The Chancellor will make his Spring Statement a month from tomorrow, just weeks before the energy price cap is hiked. Will the Government use that occasion to do the right thing and adopt Labour’s proposals?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, Labour may say that it would impose a windfall tax immediately but under its proposals the support would not then be passed on to consumers immediately; it would take far longer under its plans to get money into people’s pockets. Furthermore, Labour’s plans for a VAT cut would not target support at those who most need it, with some of the wealthiest households saving the most money under the proposals.
Baroness Boycott (CB)
My Lords, surely the Government agree that the long-term future has to be renewable energy, yet at the moment the oil companies are putting out that 20% to 25% of our energy bills is coming from green levies, when in fact the figure is 8%. This cannot be the moment that we take our foot off the gas, so to speak. Will the Government give the House a guarantee that they will not reduce the green levy but look to increase it, so that we do not end up with these problems again and again?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, I would not speculate on the green levy or any other tax or levies outside of the Budget process. What I would say to the noble Baroness is that we remain committed to our transition to net zero. While we recognise that in the short term we need to continue our oil and gas supplies, in the longer term we need to move to greener forms of energy.
Lord Oates (LD)
My Lords, does the Minister recognise that between 2010 and 2020 real energy bills for consumers fell? That was in significant part because of the green levies which helped to reduce energy consumption, quite contrary to what the noble Lord on the Government Privy Bench has just said. Will she ensure that we do not cut these energy-saving levies, and will she make absolutely clear that what is driving up prices is the cost of fossil fuels, not of renewables and green levies?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, I believe I have already answered a question about the level of the green levy on bills. However, I have also given the reassurance that the Government are committed to their net-zero targets. That involves a transition from fossil fuels to greener forms of energy, which is why we have a plan in place to do so.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is only in this sector that the industry is not paying for future infrastructure? Will she ensure that, rather than funding renewable energy through green levies, companies will be able to go to the market and fund them in the usual way?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the green levy on bills is in place to help move the transition towards more renewable energy sources. It has been successful in doing that so far. The Government remain committed to that transition.